Please remind me. Do you have SAA? What books do you have? Did you know if you write Dr Harley he will send you a book for free?

I don't have SAA, but I have decided that it would be good to try and get my W to read it. I have HNHN, and Love Busters, and the 5 steps to romantic love work book.

How do I write to Dr. Harley? Should I just give him a summary of my situation?

Yes just send them a summary.

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

Also have you read this?
False Recovery-Need Voices of Experience

Thanks for all the replies. I appreciate any input I can get.

So here is the latest event. Tonight we took the kids bowling, and our neighbor happened to be there, and we are friends with their family, because our son and daughter run around with their kids. Anyways, they are really nice people, but it has bothered me a couple times in the past when he will carry on a conversation with my wife. Well tonight he hung around for a bit while we were finishing up bowling, and everyone was having fun, but I started to notice when my wife would bowl, as she would turn around, she would look to where he was first, just for a moment, like she was checking to see if he was watching. I started paying attention to it, and it was like every time.

So, later this evening, I mentioned to her, that it bothers me when he tries to carry on conversations with her. She got mad and told me that I am so paranoid. She says "I am not going to be rude". So I just said please be mindful of my feelings, and just know that it bothers me. I asked her to just be short, and not carry on the conversation. Anyways she thinks I am way out of line. It just gave me a bad feeling when they interacted, and it triggered me.

With that said, I followed some of the advice I have gotten, and just kept my concerns very short and brief, and just let her know I didn't approve.

So, I was reading Lightwalkers thread, and Graceful2b was giving her advice on things that she learned about her husband�s behavior with the OS. It helped me realize, that this was a huge contributor to my wife�s EA. I took Graceful�s reply, and I am going to break it down and address how this relates to my wife.

Sorry this is long, but some of this I do because it is therapeutic for me, and it helps me process my thoughts.


Pre Affair, these are things I would not have noticed, but I know now, that just by my wife being herself, she naturally opens herself up to become engaged in OS friendships. It causes men to be drawn in, and want to talk to her.

I think this is why my wife doesn�t really know why it causes me to feel unsafe in our relationship.


Things finally went wrong in my wife�s situation, because a single, attractive male decided he really liked these conversations with my wife, and thus started the downward spiral into an EA.
Like Grace, I am no longer wearing blinders, and I recognize how her actions invite this problem.


My wife also does not see her actions as a problem. She only perceives her own intent. She is unaware of how other men react.


I don�t feel like my wife�s intention is to attract OM, but it happens, and they intern start to fill her love bank. As mentioned by Prisca earlier, even if this person of the OS is Gay, his Interesting Conversations are fulfilling her needs, and not leaving room for me to fill her love bank.



With my wifes EA, she found herself in a situation where she was comfortable revealing her problems and complaints about me to OM.


Now that I know how my wife tends to operate, I can see what causes the attention she so innocently receives at work.

Now that I recognize these high risk behaviors right in front of me(friendly flirting), I realize my need to start standing my ground, and letting her know when I see something that could be a risk to our marriage, and let her know that I am not enthusiastic about it.

Bottom line is, that the situation I brought up last night was something that in the past never would have bothered me, but now as I watch her interact with the OS, I can see how she invites this flirting atmosphere. This was especially hard for me last night, because as I watched her interact with our neighbor, I could just picture her interacting with the OM that she had an EA with.

This situation with the neighbor took place right in front of me, so It literally made me sick to my stomach, to picture how she must have flirted with the OM at work.

She thinks I was way out of line for being uncomfortable with the situation with the neighbor last night, because in her mind she didn�t see anything wrong. I did really good last night by telling her that I was not enthusiastic about it, and felt that it is something that needs to change if I am going to be able to feel safe in our marriage.

I used to flirt before finding MB. I can tell you that her intentions ARE to attract the OS. You are giving her too much credit to say that she has no idea how it is impacting the males around her, of course she knows. It doesn't make sense that she doesn't know. For one thing years of experience has told her what the outcome would be, and if she had no idea what the outcome would be, why would she do it at all? Because attraction = admiration. Every time she attracts a male it is a hit to her admiration.

She probably does know this is wrong, but the hit of admiration drives her to continue doing it. Why not, she has always done so with no repercussion. She blames YOU for feeling unprotected as a form of gas lighting, making you feel like you are controlling and in the wrong. And then you stop setting the boundary. And then she gets to keep getting the hit.

You need to stop seeing her as an innocent victim to her own behavior, and start identifying her gas lighting methods. You are not safe in your marriage otherwise.

Agree.

The truth is she does these things because she is more interested in her IB and getting her flirting fix.

She does it because she does not care that much about your feelings.


Don't believe me? Look at what she says when you tried to approach her:

Thanks Unwritten, That does make sense. I have noticed for years, that she really gets a thrill out of being noticed. For example, she will tell me about some guy at the grocery store that was totally checking her out, or how a creepy guy kept walking by her like he was following her around the store.

I have even been with her, when guys will do a 180, and I know that she does get a "Hit" as you say, of admiration. She is a beautiful woman.

This makes a lot of sense in regards to her EA, because when things started up, she would go into work all dressed to kill, and I would say "Why do you need to look that good at work", and she would say because it makes her feel good about herself. Later, when all the details were coming out, she would tell me about how the OM would tell her how beautiful she looked that day. I mentioned to her, that I tell her she is beautiful all the time, and she said "It just felt so much different coming from him". I guess it must be more of a rush for someone to tell you that when they aren't supposed to?

What do I do about this now though? It's not like I can ask her to dress down... I have mentioned to her that I wish she would only look that good when we are together, or on dates.

A few years back, she would go to work in sweats, and she never would get all dolled up to go to work. I guess she has become addicted to the admiration and looks she gets from men? Is this something that needs to change, and if so, how do I address it? She already thinks I am controlling, so I would never dare tell her she shouldn't wear something. How should I handle this?

I would talk to Dr Harley and see if he can't help you find a way to get your W on board with POJA and giving up her IB. That's the bigger picture here. Have you written to him yet?

I don't think getting SAA is a good idea because she doesn't even want you to call what she did an affair and I think you will turn her off to MB entirely.

SusieQ, I have been thinking about writing Dr Harley, but I am not exactly sure what to ask. Not to mention, that I wouldn't want to go on the radio show, just because I am pretty shy.

As for getting SAA, I feel the same as you. When I have even mentioned that book, she gets withdrawn. When I mention reading Love Busters, or working in the 5 ways to romantic love workbook, she is up beat, and you can tell she is interested and likes the idea of most of the principles.

I think if I tried to get her to read SAA, it would probably have a more negative effect. I am thinking that as we get farther along in POJA, and she is much more familiar with MB ideas, then I will bring it to the table, and make it clear that the purpose of reading it is to protect our marriage in the future.

I think she feels like whenever I have her read anything that mentions affairs, that I am trying to rub it in her face and make her feel horrible. That has never been my intention.

You don't have to go on the show. You can write your question and they will answer your question on the radio.

Summarize your situation and ask Dr. Harley whatever question you have.

Hi RR,

Just so I'm clear....

In my post to Lightwalker

When I discussed my husband not being aware or innocent, know my intent is to mean more like so-called innocent. He had through years of practice developed his own special talent to attract the OS. He knows what produces positive feedback that produces a benefit just to himself. Your wife needs to give up the right she has given herself to solicit for this feedback.

You both can now choose to grow in how you love each other or not.

Years ago my husband and I went hiking at a national park. We'd stopped at the rangers stationed first to figure out where to go. My husband chatted it up with the ranger about where we could go to see bears! Meanwhile I picked up a brochure about what to do if we do see a bear!

As we hiked I suggested we talk and stay together more. My husband didn't feel like it. He had a personal reason. Something like a hunter in the woods. Halfway in I heard a snort directly behind me.

A grizzly was only 20 feet away! Fortunately she quickly took off but we didn't know where.

Do you go backwards or forwards? That's where your at! You need to be brave and decide. This standing around and giving credit to your wife's wayward babble is leaving you in this unsafe space. Surviving An Affair book is like that bear brochure I picked up.

We did continue to go up. We made noise along the way, talked and stuck together. If my husband were to continue to dismiss those instruction from the brochure I certainly would not feel safe and would do what would help me feel safe! Let's say Bear = Affair! In this story. Get the book. Cross out the word affair and call it a bear! Your going to read "surviving a bear" because you both need to bear proof your marriage! There is a bigger sense of urgency now because you are walking on a wayward path with bears running around! You both need expert instructions to keep safe!



Your not being triggered from a past event alone. Your standing in unsafe condition.

That "bear" taught me a lot! True story!

That does make sense, and I like the way you worded it in the way that she has given herself this right to solicit for feedback from men. Because I know it is not quite as innocent as she pretends it is. She will on occasion tell me how a man would keep crossing her path on purpose, and would make eye contact with her and say hi. To me it seems like she is paying just a little too much attention to how men react around her. It actually makes me feel like she is looking for another man.

So I guess my question to you is, how did you talk to your husband about getting rid of these destructive habits? How do I let my wife know that it really makes me uncomfortable, without causing her to just hide these things from me? I want her to see why this makes me feel unsafe. At the same time, I don�t want her to feel like I want her to dress down and look as ugly as possible to go out. I just want it to appear like she is off the market.



I like your bear analogy, and I agree, that I need to just help her understand that the reason I want to read SAA, is I want to protect our marriage from �Bears�.

Respectfully ask your wife to put her energy into meeting your EN and spending 15-20 hours UA time w/you in a way that is enjoyable for both.

Tell your wife what you want in a way that is not a personal attack on her. You say it in love for her and your desire for your marriage to be successful. Your building romantic love.

"I love you and want our marriage to meet one another's intimate needs and for us to remain married. I want neither of us to open ourselves up to OS friendships"

Complain when you note her grooming interactions. Suggest solutions. For example, I'd ask my husband to stay close by when attending parties so we could talk with others together. And encourage her to be open to letting you know when OM are extending themselves towards her. Don't turn her off to not talking with you about it. Make it OK to be O & H.

It really sounds like your wife is not yet prepared to give up these parts of her old self to keep your marriage intact. She's yet in denial or ambivalent. She may have ended her affair but she's still not completely ready to give up IB.

My husband was ambivalent for a long long time. It was terribly painful.

This is why you are on this crossroad. She does not appreciate the pain and your need for her to act. You can't beg her. You can't argue, lecture or debate her. It sounds like you wife baits you to argue when you have made your needs known. My husband did the same thing and still does.

Just know, no one can define you. If you start into these arguments debating whether your needs are reasonable w/your wife then one of you are being controlling. State your need. Be prepared for more push back. But you might be pleasantly surprised.

Plainly repeat your need for this extraordinary precaution when she wants to argue. Reinforce keeping your marriage intact and meeting important emotional needs. Read and re-read Dr Harley's chapter on IB and IBers arguments about becoming integrated in their marriage relationship. Its often a tough sell for a stubborn IBer. They have lots of convincing arguments to remain an IBer!

Be aware she is probably 60/40 with you. Your going to need support here. I'd suggest talking to Steve Harley through MB couching center. Or call or write MB radio. Just try one session. The space you are in can be draining to fight through.

Thank you. I really appreciate your advice. I know we have a long way to go. I have been loving the open dialog me and her have had lately. She seems so much more willing to talk about these things lately, without getting defensive.

I really want to do some MB coaching, because it would give her and I some accountability.

I am just getting on here right now to vent a little. I am very triggered today, and very angry. I have always been haunted since D-Day, what the OM looked like. I spent tons of time after discovery, searching online for pictures. There was nothing on facebook, and there was no other sign of him at all. Anyways, I just happened onto some pictures of him this morning, and it hit me like a ton of bricks. I searched his name online, and out of nowhere, there he was. His Gym posted pictures people who graduated from a training program. Once I got on their website I found a handful of pictures of him.

It just angers me to look at that POS, and realize that he is the man that threatened to destroy everything in my life. I want to go get a membership there, and run him off. I have never felt this much anger towards another person. He looks like an arrogant cocky POS!!! Seeing him just makes me want to meet him in person, because he is just a tiny man with stubby little fingers. He is nothing, and I know he would fear me. I am 6'2", and very athletic, and in great physical condition. I would destroy him...I just can't believe my wife would fall for the tactics of a player like him. He is just a troll, that is good at talking to women.

I am sorry for venting, but I needed to say something, and maybe get someone to talk me out of doing something stupid.

Why? You're just hurting yourself. Believe me, I know. I did the same kind of stuff. It's very tempting to want to go back and keep digging and looking and such. But the only path to happiness is forward. You have to ask yourself if you know enough about what happened to change course so it never happens again. It's like the guy on a sinking ship who keeps looking over his shoulder at the iceberg and wishing he hadn't hit it when he should be plugging the holes in his ship and fixing the radar system.