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Looking for advice from a womans point of view. Whether you have been cheated on or cheated yourself I am looking for some advise on my situation. At the end of the day I chose to stay but I live with the burning question will this ever happen again and trying to wrap my head around why it happened and who and what I am to her today. If your interested in helping please read this very long story and any advise would be appreciated.



So here is my unfortunate story... I am a 35 year old guy and have been with my wife for 14 years now married for 6. We started dating when she was just finishing high school so we were young. We were very connected in the early stages but we were also young and immature. She was a very jealous type and I still wanted my independence along with the relationship (guys nights out etc). We both treated each other great at times and not so great at times and did our fair share of fighting. I always thought we had this connection that kept us together. Last year on her 30th birthday my friend who is a total player cheats on his wife constantly has always had a thing for her (my stupid fault for staying friends with this Ahole). She has always had a huge crush on him too but I never really saw or noticed. I was completely na�ve in thinking we loved each other and nothing would ever happen. I had asked him to babysit for us so I could take her out for her bday. He texted her to say happy birthday and they started chatting. She was totally smitten and just threw her self at him and he happily accepted. I have not always been the best husband and she was equally not the greatest wife. We did not communicate or really fulfill each others needs. I always knew we would have to address these issues one day but just didn't act soon enough. They had a 2 week thing until I caught them. She used me to make this happen as I was the only real access to her being with him in person. We went out with him and his wife for dinner and UFC the week after it all started and she was rubbing him with her foot under the table right beside me. She followed him to the bathroom every chance she got and finally she met him coming out and they kissed quickly. That week they did a lot of sexting and texting. They only talked on the phone a couple of times and once was for an extended period. She tried hanging out with him during the day as she works from home but since he knew there was no opportunity for sex he made excuses why he could not. She knew who and what he was as we have talked about it before but just ignored it as she was having a lot of fun and excitement. I became completely invisible to her and she painted this horrible picture of me in her mind to maybe ease her conscience. She saw nothing wrong with what she was doing and was just being very selfish. She had sex with him once during the 2 weeks. We went out again the following weekend drinking and Karaoke and I saw her looking at him a certain way. He went to the washroom and she followed. They were gone for a while and I knew something was up so I went and caught him just leaving. She took him into the womens washroom into the stall kissed and BJ. I believe she enjoyed the physical part but also it was a way to keep him interested in her.



It took a few months for me to finally unravel the whole story as all I knew was the karaoke night. After that night we talked about our relationship and I immediately changed everything I was doing wrong. I work for her dad and we have 2 kids I didn't want to break up my family and lose my career. I also very much love her I always have. She has had a much harder time changing her part of the bad marriage and is realizing how much of it was actually her issues as well as mine. I have been sticking with it working very hard helping her work on her issues as I told her you have to change or I will not be able to stay. She has been doing very well but more work to be done... She has shown an incredible amount of remorse, shame and guilt. To the point she goes to pretty dark places every time we talked about it and is very self loathing when she is confronted with what she did. She never once made any effort to talk to me prior that she was unhappy. When he texted her she had no interest in trying to fix our marriage as she was really into the excitement and had complete disregard for our family and figured she wouldn't get caught.



I have struggled with this every day the pain and horrible feelings are the worst. Like so many others I struggle most when I am alone driving to/from work etc. It has gotten a little better but I am so badly hurt and damaged by what she did. Since I have lost 35 lbs changed my look and everything about me as a husband. I truly believe she loves the new me. My biggest fear is will this ever happen again down the road. If she is ever confronted with a similar opportunity and feel confident she would not get caught will she do it again. Is the excitement she had like a drug once you have had a taste it would be hard to turn down. What is a woman's perspective on all of this as men just don't think the same or understand women...

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Hi Burned13, welcome to Marriage Builders. There is a very, very specific path to recovery. It this path is not followed, repeat affairs are typically the result. If the problems leading up to the affair are not resolved, you will end up with a crippled version of the marriage that is worse than pre-affair and more vulnerable to another affair.

A couple of questions before I show you the steps, though. Was the affair exposed to the OM's wife, your family and friends? Have you and your wife cut off all contact with this couple? Do you EVER see them in any capacity? How far away do they live?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Thank you so much for reading and replying!!! I exposed the affair to his wife yes indeed. My wifes family knows mainly because I work for her dad and had to take sudden time off work on D day. My family and our friends do not know as far as we can tell. We never see them at all but they do live close. We avoid that part of town at all costs. I think she does not carry any kind of feelings for him. If she saw him in public I think she would walk away but is she still insanely attracted to him I don't really know. She tried to connect with him and he pretty much shot her down. How to be a player 101 do not let them get clingy right? e.g. after she slept with him she asked him in a text hey I don't really know you what are your interests and his reply was long walks on the beach. She did realize that was BS and said lol and that was the end of that conversation.

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Thanks for answering. One of the big reasons for the affair is that your wife has very poor boundaries around men. Most affairs occur because of opposite sex friendships, but in this case, it was a couple you associate with. So she will really need to CHANGE how she communicates with men. She absolutely should not have opposite sex friendships and you should be leery about even associating with couples since that is the environment in which she had an affair.

I would get the book Surviving an Affair and diligently follow the program in that book. That means, affair proofing your marriage, meeting each others emotional needs, eliminating love busters and spending 15-20 hours per week on DATES meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs. That is what it will take to recover your marriage. Otherwise, your marriage will always be crippled.

Here is the checklist of extraordinary precautions from the book Surviving an Affair.

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by Burned13
I have been sticking with it working very hard helping her work on her issues as I told her you have to change or I will not be able to stay. She has been doing very well but more work to be done...

That "work" should all be devoted to affair proofing your marriage and creating a romantic, passionate marriage. We call that just compensation.

Quote
She has shown an incredible amount of remorse, shame and guilt.

I don't want you to be assured or distracted by her "remorse, shame and guilt" because none of that changes bad marriages. What changes a marriage are action steps to prevent another affair and give just compensation to the betrayed spouse.

Are you still in touch with the OM's wife to make sure there is no more contact?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Burned13,

You wrote, my friend who is a total player cheats on his wife constantly

So drop a dime to the betrayed husbands of the women he cheated with previously, perhaps one of them will either run him out of town or break his legs with a baseball bat.

Have you exposed OM widely? To his employer and relatives?

God Bless
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Does the POSOM's Betrayed Wife know about all of his previous affairs?

She should know the type of danger her serial cheating excuse of a husband is so she can sort out her life too.

LTL

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Put OM on a cheaters exposure website.

The A was a boundaries problem. Be more protective and aware this can happen. Ensure she is transparent with you and her life is daily entwined with yours. Like us your naivetes about your 'connection' being a protection have been stripped away.

Has EVERY list item been checked?

Will your independent guys nights life style change? When a woman is not involved in every aspect of her husband's world it creates a void.



What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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First I can't tell you how much I appreciate your help on this. I see you reply to a lot of people and it is a great thing your doing. I don't expect you to continue to help but I very much appreciate it. Even if you can read this when you have time you seem to know what your talking about and any additional advise would be very appreciated. I have been suffering gut wrenching hurt for over a year now. After she was caught she of course blamed me for everything telling me all of my short comings. I have pointed hers out and it has taken all this time for her to really realize her part bit by bit. I made it clear and I think she understands it was not my fault at all. She could have talked to me but she wanted the quick selfish fix of the excitement.



My faults and I admit to all of them.



Did not pay enough attention to her

issues from our past that she hung on to

we were in a rut looking after the kids and not taking care of us (no excitement date nights etc.) She was as much to blame for this one also

I failed on attending to her love languages and did not give her the affection she needed

I did not help her nearly enough and support her with the kids, house and day to day

I let myself go a bit gained some weight and just didn't put the effort into my look (she gained some too but always finds a way to look good).



She also hated her job and felt alone with that.

Family issues and again felt alone with that.



She is not the type to act she needs someone to guide her along.



My actions



2 days after the karaoke I had us enrolled in ballroom dance classes

I immediately started helping her with day to day with the house, kids and everything else. I can honestly say rock star husband over night.

I immediately started paying attention to her love language needs (we went to some counselling).

I dropped 35 lbs and changed my entire look. If I showed you a before and after it would blow your mind. It does to me every time I see it.

I addressed our past issues even as far as calling an old friend of mine from an issue she had with him from 10 years ago. I did not support her when he was an Ahole to her so called him right beside her and admitted what he did was wrong and I should have stuck up for her.

We started going on date nights and I went as far as going on You Tube and learning how to dance at a club type thing. I stood in front of the mirror at 5am before work everyday for 3 weeks to get it right.



Her faults



She has anger issues and does not know how to handle anger, stress and frustration

She talked at me not to me so communication was non existent and she was a little aggressive at times.

She complained a lot about everything and is kind of the victim type. If she explained a situation and my advise was not what she wanted to here she would get mad at me

She is very loving and affectionate but when her button is pushed there was no talking to her

She started fights and was just a mean selfish person when that button was pushed. She would act out in front of friends and not think twice

She was not giving me what I needed as far as love languages even after the affair

I had as many or more passed issues with her





Her actions



She has recognized the selfish behaviour and is making an effort to do better (still working on it)

She has recognized the anger issue and we have struggled with that one but again she is making an effort

She has made efforts to provide me with more of what I need to help rebuild myself. I have to communicate to her as she is not very good at going above and beyond to really make an impact on what I need. The effort is real I am not making excuses for her but I still feel a little short changed

She tries very hard not to complain as much and when I tell her she is "venting" and I am at my limit (I say it in a much nicer way) she is much better at responding

We have closed the books on her past issues

She seems to be excited about the new me and I have really blown her away a few times to really grab her attention again. I am of course skeptical...



I struggle with the question was she ever really in love with me and am I really the guy for her, or am I just safe and reliable and she hasn't had the right option to leave. Is this new me really enough and better than the scum bag she had such a crush on (the OM). If I am not THE guy for her deep in her heart what is going to stop her from doing it again? I work for her dad and it is a high level career and we have 2 kids. I grew up in a broken home and vowed to not let that happen to my kids. Life is very complicated but I am sick every day thinking about what she did and how she did it. I am sick of the thought she might do it again and am I really it for her. I feel all the horrible feelings everyone in this situation feels and I want some relief... Her remorse has been intense to the point she goes into almost a nervous break down. It is very real and maybe the only reason I am still around as the job and kids are not enough to suffer for the rest of my life. Thank you for listening melodylane any advise would be appreciated smile

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Every item except the letter is checked off. I almost feel like I don't want her to have any contact with him at all and it has been over a year. Is it important at this point? If you read my last response to melodylane you will see much more of the story. I am completely exposed here but I need the help. I have not had an independent lifestyle for years lol so yes check that one off too. Yes there is no protection at all and that scares the s*&^ out of me... He is definitely out of the picture phone number and email address changed. She is transparent with me as far as I can tell I have access to her phone and all accounts FB email etc. I will never let my guard down again trust me on that one. Thing that kills me is he is scum. Remember he was my friend so I know everything about him and his dirty secrets. She should have known that but he was way hotter than me and probably always will be (but I have closed the gap considerably smile She felt unhappy with her whole life (kids job family and me) and said she needed to escape reality and go to fantasy land. Yes I told his wife everything she chose to stay and told me to stay out of their lives lol. Her mistake.

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indiegirl what is your experience? Have you been in this type of situation before?

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From a womans point of view to anyone helping out here why did she do this and do you think she would do it again. I know impossible questions to answer but as a woman knowing the way a woman thinks and feels... Any thoughts anyone?

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Originally Posted by Burned13
From a womans point of view to anyone helping out here why did she do this and do you think she would do it again. I know impossible questions to answer but as a woman knowing the way a woman thinks and feels... Any thoughts anyone?

Burned, I am sorry for your pain. There is no guarantee your wife will not cheat again. No one has a guarantee about that but implementing EPs and having strong boundaries will greatly reduce the opportunity to make an affair possible. Cheaters cheat for a variety of "reasons" but at the end of the day they made a choice to do what they wanted (often thinking they won't be caught) and simply don't care about their spouse, children, reputation, etc.

As for the OM being scumbag...your wife likely knew she could sleep with him given that she already knew he was a scumbag.

Welcome to MB



BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011




Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
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Originally Posted by Burned13
I struggle with the question was she ever really in love with me and am I really the guy for her, or am I just safe and reliable and she hasn't had the right option to leave. Is this new me really enough and better than the scum bag she had such a crush on (the OM). If I am not THE guy for her deep in her heart what is going to stop her from doing it again?

Burned13, whether or not she was in love with you is a moot point and I will explain why later. I suspect what happened is that she fell out of love because your marriage was neglected. Most married people STOP doing the things they did when they dated, and after about 5 years they fall out of love. They put everything before their marriage, careers, kids, the lint in the dryer; everything comes before it.

What we can teach you is how to fall in love again. Having a romantic, passionate marriage is not a matter of accident or hope, it is a direct RESULT of a lifestyle that creates and sustains romantic love. The KEY is:

1. affair proof your marriage by following the guidelines on the checklist
2. eliminating ALL lovebusters
3. meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs for a MINIMUM of 15-20 hours per week out on DATES [without children or people]

If you will do all these things, you will create a passionate marriage [takes about 8 weeks] and the bad memories will fade into the past. When a person is happy in the present, their mind does not tend to wander to the past.

And I agree it is not necessary for you to send a no contact the OM since contract ended a year ago.

I am concerned that you have full and complete access to absolutely everything, i.e.: her computers, cell phone etc. Do you? I would also strongly suggest you get spyware on her phone that has a built in GPS. That will help you relax and trust her again. [eblaster is a good one] She should never know about this.

You can go through the MB program in several ways. Some, like me, could not do it on our own, so we went through the Marriage Builders course. You are assigned a coach who takes you through weekly lessons spanning a year. Dr Harley supervises this program directly.

If you are both diligent and committed, you can go through this program on your own using the books, workbooks and questionnaires. If you ran into trouble, we could help you on the forum AND/OR you can email Dr. Harley on his radio show and solicit his input. [for free] You could get all the books/workbooks you need for around $45.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by Burned13
From a womans point of view to anyone helping out here why did she do this and do you think she would do it again. I know impossible questions to answer but as a woman knowing the way a woman thinks and feels... Any thoughts anyone?

It is very possible to answer why. She cheated because she has pisspoor boundaries around men. She allowed another man to meet her needs. That is WHY. It really is very simple.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by Burned13
I exposed the affair to his wife yes indeed. My wifes family knows mainly because I work for her dad and had to take sudden time off work on D day. My family and our friends do not know as far as we can tell.

I would expose to your family and friends. You (and even W) get the support you need and W can be held accountable. I would remedy this ASAP. Are any of your friends mutual friends of OM and his wife?

How old are your children?


BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011




Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Burned13
From a womans point of view to anyone helping out here why did she do this and do you think she would do it again. I know impossible questions to answer but as a woman knowing the way a woman thinks and feels... Any thoughts anyone?

It is very possible to answer why. She cheated because she has pisspoor boundaries around men. She allowed another man to meet her needs. That is WHY. It really is very simple.

Unfortunately the story might be slightly different but waywards are all the same......

Believe it or not this is it in a nut shell, you would not think the answer would be that simple but it really is. Listen to Mel she knows her stuff and has been giving advice for a long time.


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What do you mean by bad boundaries? Does that simply mean that she allows herself to be excited by what she thinks are good looking men and allows herself to act e.g. flirting and sending the signals she is available? If a guys cheats it is often a matter of lust. Just wanting something new and sexually appealing as far as I know. Is it possible she did it just because she was hot for him and wanted the physical sexual experience?

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No!!

Read up on boundaries on this website.

Boundaries are simply not allowing yourself to be in a situation where a member of the OS (opposite sex) could possibly meet any of your emotional needs.

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Originally Posted by Burned13
What do you mean by bad boundaries? Does that simply mean that she allows herself to be excited by what she thinks are good looking men and allows herself to act e.g. flirting and sending the signals she is available? If a guys cheats it is often a matter of lust. Just wanting something new and sexually appealing as far as I know. Is it possible she did it just because she was hot for him and wanted the physical sexual experience?

She was HOT for him because she allowed him to meet her needs. That is what caused her to have feelings for him. That doesn't happen by accident. A woman might admire a cute guy in passing but that doesn't mean she is HOT for him and wants to sleep with him.

She flirts with men and has personal conversations with them, inviting them to meet her needs. That is why she had an affair.

So, the issue is that she allows men to meet her needs and she INVITES that inappropriate attention by flirting and having personal conversations with them. Unless that stops, welcome to your future!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Another quick point...

You undertake these concepts TOGETHER...because not only is she vulnerable to an affair (based upon her behavior...she is susceptible)...but you are too. You are a young husband and father who also has dated pretty much one woman since high school. You would be a strong candidate for midlife crisis type of affair at work and heck, your wife cheated on you once, so evening the score is a quick and easy justification and rationalization.

I'm not trying to insult you by calling you a possible or potential cheater but you ARE human and we all are susceptible to making mistakes (including other marital killers like gambling, porn, drugs and alcohol, etc). It also makes the marriage builder process more complete as you BOTH undertake extraordinary precautions to protect your marriage. You BOTH become each others accountability partners.

MB is not about fixing her....it's about fixing and protecting your marriage. It applies equally to both sides versus being a punishment towards the formerly cheating spouse.



FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered

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Correct, letting a member of the OS meet any of your emotional needs (conversation, recreation, etc.) is just a recipe for disaster!!!!!!

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Where do I find boundaries on this site I have been looking and can't find it.

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People with bad boundaries allow others of the opposite sex to meet their emotional needs and deposit love units in their love bank. People with good boundaries deliberately guard their love bank against outside threats. Good boundaries are not an accident. They are a conscious decision to not allow others to meet the emotional needs that your spouse should be meeting.


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Good boundaries for a married person would be:

No opposite sex friendships
No flirting
No discussion of personal life with members of the opposite sex
Spend all leisure time with spouse
Never spend the night apart from your spouse

I am sure other folks can add to this.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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I hope I am not driving you crazy today thank you for all the advise. I have read a lot on this site and took the love bank quiz. From a woman's point of view and I hope I get a few responses to this one but how important is physical appearance? In other words the OM would be considered better looking by most women. I would be considered a good looking guy for sure so not comparing a 10 to a 2 more like a 9 to a 7 if that makes sense lol. My wife said he avoided really any connection and most of the texting and activities were sexual. She went along because she said she didn't want to lose the attention from a hot guy. She tried a couple of times to get him to meet some of those needs like talking or a sort of plutonic meeting and he had no interest. When you are a happy woman with a husband that cares does an attractive guy still present temptation? Is lust something that can be controlled by a woman who's needs are being met? When a man sees a hot woman he immediately thinks of her sexually, what does a woman think when she sees a hot or cute guy?

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Your wife was attracted to this guy because he was meeting her needs. He probably gave her some attention and was a good conversationalist. A person can see an attractive person and like them/lust after them but they don't have affairs. The key here is that he was meeting her needs in some effective way.




"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Every man and woman is different when it comes to their top EN's. Generally speaking, PA (physical attractiveness), is not a high need for most women. But that is generally speaking, it may be a very high need for your wife.

You can talk to her about ways to meet that need for her, and she should avoid places where she is around a lot of highly attractive men so as not to compare you to them.

This is the same as it would be fore a man who has a high PA need, btw, it is not gender specific advice. You do not need to ask for advice from the women on this forum, because the advice here is based on Dr Harley's concepts, not our own opinions and female perspective.

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I have to say I am grateful to say the least to everyone who offered advise. There was a lot of content to read, process and offer educated, insightful and thoughtful responses. I have been struggling tremendously with this for over a year and this has been the most painful and horrible experience of my life. I still have a ways to go but you all provided me with valuable clarity with which I was in such desperate need of. I can't thank you all enough as I have had NOBODY to confide in and deal with this in a constructive way. I have to focus on ME now and make improvements on myself as well as my marriage. My biggest fear in all of this is she might do it again. I will keep her bucket full and continue to be the best husband I can be utilizing the information and concepts from this site. If it is purely in her nature and she really is deep down a selfish person and this happens again its over, but I don't want to waste the prime of my life on someone who does not ultimately care and love me the same way I do them. I believe this relationship is worth saving so that is my goal. I can't thank you all enough for giving me what I needed so badly. I needed clarity, support and to be picked up and put back on my feet. You all have giving me the opportunity to move forward and for that I am eternally grateful. Thank you!!!! Especially Melodylane you have really given me a chance to feel human again. Ultimately its me that has to learn to live a happy life, but you gave me what I needed to take that next baby step. Thank you so very much!!!! One last thing, everything I have learned from all of you and this site I will utilize and I will not waste the valuable eye opener that has been provided to me. You can all walk away from this one knowing you helped someone in desperate need and I hope you take great pride in that because I most certainly value and appreciate what I have accomplished with your help. A new perspective.... Thanks again!!!!

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You are very welcome, Burned!! And please don't stop working on recovery, because if your marriage does not recover, your resentment will grow. If your marriage gets better, you won't have resentment. So it is critically important that you don't stop. You have change your marriage into a marriage that is radically better than what you had before. We can help with you that.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by Burned13
indiegirl what is your experience? Have you been in this type of situation before?


Both I and my ex husband had poor boundaries. It got me into some trouble by attracting men, but I nipped it in the bud and told my spouse. I then improved my boundaries but I mistakenly attributed it to my attractiveness. Pretty people with good boundaries don't get hit on though!

Neither my husband nor his mistress were very good looking but by consoling her after the death of his best friend/her husband they met shed loads of each other's ENs and had a full blown affair. Lovebank lesson learned!

Originally Posted by Burned13
What do you mean by bad boundaries? Does that simply mean that she allows herself to be excited by what she thinks are good looking men and allows herself to act e.g. flirting and sending the signals she is available? If a guys cheats it is often a matter of lust. Just wanting something new and sexually appealing as far as I know. Is it possible she did it just because she was hot for him and wanted the physical sexual experience?


The PA need rarely causes affairs even for those who are very distracted by attractive people.

Most affairs are with unattractive people the wayward feels comfortable letting their boundaries down with. The affair happens accidentally because they assume there is no attraction.

Most married people avoid the company of the obviously attractive. Most married people don't want affairs yet 60 pc of marriages experience them.

The serial lust-motivated cheat is actually in the minority, but is an obvious one for people to spot.

I'd say in your wife's case she was actively targeted by such a predator who is also an expert in meeting ENs. Waywards are like vampires - they know how to recruit.

Your wife probably felt safe accepting the flattery/EN need because she was NOT attracted to him and found him an obvious cheeseball.

He's a loser; she will have accurately assessed. That initial fact always reasserts itself when ENs stop being enough which is why 95 pc of affairs end quickly within 2 years.


Last edited by indiegirl; 01/29/15 12:19 PM.

What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Anyone who has affectionate, admiring, conversational or recreational relationships with a member of the opposite sex has poor boundaries.

These needs are very powerful and when allowed, you can fall head over heels no matter how moral you are.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Okay she was definitely attracted to him for sure unfortunately he is a good looking guy. He does pray on the weak for sure I know the girls he has cheated on his wife with he bragged to me about them. She has always had an attraction to him but never really tried to pursue it. When he texted her on her Bday she said she was smitten he remembered and said she was lonely and unhappy. This was exciting to her and I just became invisible. She thought because he liked her she could do better than me. On the middle weekend we were in the car on the way home she had just kissed him in the bathroom area and rubbed him with her foot. I started talking about how we were connected and no matter if our fights were bad or not we had that connection. OH MY was I so very wrong. She started talking about maybe we really are not that connected and I was kind of shocked. We almost started to argue about it and that was the end of the conversation. She said she didn't want to try to fix our problems because that would end the fun and she would lose his interest.

I want to have a talk with her about the boundaries as that is an incredible way to look at how it happened and how to prevent it from happening again. I really want her to buy into it but ultimately she has to choose to enforce those boundaries within. I just don't know if she is mature enough to really know what she has with me. If she knew for sure she would not get caught would she do it again no matter how good to her I am? Would she find a way to convince her conscience it is okay? He has always made it clear he was available to her so yes she knew for sure she could have him if she wanted. How do I assess if her morals are screwed up or if it really did just boil down to being unhappy and low boundaries?

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Why do you say pretty people with good boundaries don't get hit on that is an interesting statement. Before I learned what I have learned here I asked her when a good looking guy is around us to pay attention to me and have a virtual F OFF sign on her forehead. I know not a very elegant way to explain what I was wanting but you get the point.

She has a very playful and cute personality when she is happy and that tends to attract guys interest. I can't ask her to stop being her boundaries or not...

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No but she can choose to have good boundaries for herself. I did and I am still 'me'. I am just as flirtatious and fun but I direct it towards the right man!

Men don't approach woman giving no signals. All studies show that. Your instructions to her reflect that insight.

He's met a need for both affection (remembering) and admiration with one text. He's good but ultimately a fraud.

Don't try to educate her. Go through SAA together and see what she thinks. She will probably be relieved for the explanation.

The love bank is unconscious. If you accept needs they affect you just as heroin would. There's no conscious choice involved with romantic feelings.



Last edited by indiegirl; 01/29/15 01:19 PM.

What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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The word playful was used all the time by lots of men to describe me. Wow that makes me wince now. These days I only want my boyfriend to see that side.



What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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I want her to feel the same way. I want her to want to have the F off sign and wince at that kind of attention. About 6 months after there affair ended we went to a festival with another couple. The other couple are our next door neighbours and in their mid 20's. We had a few drinks and their was music playing. My wife loves to dance and we were headed into a building towards the washrooms. She grabbed a wall and did kind of a sexy dance type move. After I told her that was way offside and she was embarrassed and agreed. What does that mean though? Does she do things like that to get the attention. Remember this is 6 months after and 6 months of me being a total rock star husband (and I really do mean that modestly but I have put 110% pedal to the metal to be a better husband). He has made a couple of comments about her looking good on a couple of occasions and the last time we put a stop to it. I suggested she text him and then hesitated. She pushed the issue and sent the message. That pretty much killed the friendship but we are both totally fine with that. If I have filled up her love bank why does she still seem to want or like attention from guys?

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Or was she doing that for me and didn't realize what she was doing? Is it simply a maturity thing?

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Some people go out looking for affairs, irregardless of whether their spouses meets their needs.

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Done the whole sexy dance thing too - it doesn't mean as much to women who can't see it the way men do. Dancing is fun and the way your hips are hinged makes most dancing sexy - especially around your husband.

Originally Posted by Burned13
I want her to feel the same way. I want her to want to have the F off sign and wince at that kind of attention. About 6 months after there affair ended we went to a festival with another couple. The other couple are our next door neighbours and in their mid 20's. We had a few drinks and their was music playing. My wife loves to dance and we were headed into a building towards the washrooms. She grabbed a wall and did kind of a sexy dance type move. After I told her that was way offside and she was embarrassed and agreed.


You as the man had a valuable insight as to how this could look. She listened to that insight and will be better off for using the wisdom which comes from both genders being allowed to share their insights.

If she had brushed you off, been careless about your feelings or called you controlling then it's a red flag. If not, then it's all good practice for a PoJA lifestyle.

The wisdom of PoJA uses the best of the female brain and the best of the male.


Last edited by indiegirl; 01/29/15 02:03 PM.

What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Your maturity comment is a tad DJ-y.

She listens to your perspective. She 'pushes the issue' when she knows you're unhappy. You could have run the guy off yourself. It was mature of her to listen to concerns and act on them.

She's learning from her mistakes where I stand.

So- checklist done?



Last edited by indiegirl; 01/29/15 02:19 PM.

What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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It concerns me that exposure is undone.

As a couple you have such potential to recover but you can't do it under a cloud of shame and secrecy.



What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted by Burned13
I want her to feel the same way. I want her to want to have the F off sign and wince at that kind of attention. About 6 months after there affair ended we went to a festival with another couple. The other couple are our next door neighbours and in their mid 20's. We had a few drinks and their was music playing. My wife loves to dance and we were headed into a building towards the washrooms. She grabbed a wall and did kind of a sexy dance type move. After I told her that was way offside and she was embarrassed and agreed. What does that mean though? Does she do things like that to get the attention. Remember this is 6 months after and 6 months of me being a total rock star husband (and I really do mean that modestly but I have put 110% pedal to the metal to be a better husband). He has made a couple of comments about her looking good on a couple of occasions and the last time we put a stop to it. I suggested she text him and then hesitated. She pushed the issue and sent the message. That pretty much killed the friendship but we are both totally fine with that. If I have filled up her love bank why does she still seem to want or like attention from guys?

She may have been doing the dance for you and she may not have you need to ask her not just assume who she was doing it for.

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And don't keep worrying about the why, it really was just poor boundaries, most affairs start that way.

And if you keep recovering (as Melody Lane stated) and filling her love bank and she has good boundaries, it won't happen again. Just stick with the MB program and you will have a much better marriage.

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The key word is embarrassment; she's learning the hard way that her social manners are inappropriate and I found it embarrassing when that fact dawned on me. What's appropriate for the unmarried isn't OK for the married.

I'll always remember a young intern we had to send home because her clothes were more suitable for a party. She was mortified but it was good that we were honest with her.


Last edited by indiegirl; 01/30/15 03:03 AM.

What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Burned, I'm going to jump in a tad here. There are several parallels that I can sense here, and where I was five years ago this month.

First off; calm your mind a bit. Don't think; DO.


Originally Posted by Burned13
I really want her to buy into it but ultimately she has to choose to enforce those boundaries within. I just don't know if she is mature enough to really know what she has with me.

I'll give you the secret to this part right here. For just three monthly installments of... just kidding.

I chose these two sentences because they are more related than you think (tossing aside the dig at "maturity").

If you want her to enforce boundaries "from within," then you have to SHOW her what she has with you. You have to MAKE something between the two of you. And that something is Romantic Love.

You are going to do that by eliminating habits in which you are using Love Busters, and creating habits where you are meeting her emotional needs. Most importantly, you are going to spend as much time as possible meeting the 4 intimate emotional needs of Intimate conversation, Recreational Companionship, and Sexual Fulfillment.

This means that you are going to take her out and have FUN. And talk. And dance. And talk. And hold her hand, and kiss her cheek. And tell her you love her. It means that you aren't going to ruin that time by "talking about your problems" or chiding her for doing a little shimmy.

Instead of chiding her, you could told her you loved her... and then if it really bugged you, bring it up LATER. AFTER you have had a good time, you could say "You know, it bothers me when..."

If YOU become her favorite companion, and make her feel treasured, she WILL begin to enforce boundaries.

Originally Posted by Burned13
If she knew for sure she would not get caught would she do it again no matter ow good to her I am? Would she find a way to convince her conscience it is okay? He has always made it clear he was available to her so yes she knew for sure she could have him if she wanted. How do I assess if her morals are screwed up or if it really did just boil down to being unhappy and low boundaries?

Overthinking again.

She didn't think she would get caught the first time. And by the time they are over the edge, they don't CARE if they get caught.

Boundaries are only PART of the solution here.

The majority of the solution lies in creating a transparent, interdependent marriage where there ARE NO opportunities to develop an affair, where there are no shrouds of secrecy for another man to meet her needs while you are unaware.

If you are spending every spare moment with each other, being each other's favorite companions, or fulfilling family time with your children (if you have them, I'm short on time) then there is very little time for an affair (the less, the better).

Focus on getting that UA time in, and you can shore up the boundaries along the way. The more in love with you she is, the more cooperative she will be in protecting what you build.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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I second the UA time advice. Im concerned that you were out with another couple when post-affair your UA should have been 20-25 hours a week. Leaves little time for friends.

Also if you had done exposure right it ensures you are only surrounded by people who support the marriage. I don't think that couple would've made that cut.

Your wife needs to feel surrounded and enclosed by you. Its like in Far From the Maddening Crowd "whenever you look up there I shall be� and whenever I look up, there will be you."

There's a great article on this I'm going to root out for you..



What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted by Dr Harley
I use a house as an illustration to help husbands understand how their wives feel. Each room in the house represents one of the husband's roles in life. There is a room for his job as a production manager, there is another for golf, another for his new sports car, one for his garden, one for his children, one for church, and, yes, one for his wife.

As he makes his way through an average day, he visits various rooms when he is faced with the role the room defines. And when he's in a certain room, the others are blocked out of his mind so that he can focus his undivided attention on the role he plays at the time. He does his best when he's not faced with distractions, and prefers to deal with each problem with all his energy and creativity so that he does the best he can in each role he plays.

The wives of most men are only one of many rooms in this imaginary house. It represents the "husband" role. When they are in that room, they usually try to give their wives undivided attention and make a special effort to meet their needs. They also go to that room to have their own needs met, particularly the need for sex.

What frustrates wives most is that they are relegated to only one room in their husbands' imaginary house instead of every room. In other words, they want to be integrated into a man's entire life, not relegated to one corner. Without such integration, there can be no emotional bonding, no uniting of the spirit, no feeling of intimacy and, in many cases, no sex.

To help husbands learn to avoid this unpleasant outcome, I have tried to show them how to become and stay emotionally connected to their wives by inviting them into each room of their house. They learn to become more than the role of "husband" to their wives. They learn to integrate their wives into every aspect of their lives.


Here:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8111_leave.html


Women are multitasking, holistic thinkers. We don't understand why a man needs to block us out in order to focus on other tasks. Even if we do understand, it doesn't solve the horrible sense of loneliness.

In no way does your independent lifestyle excuse or cause her affair. Even if you were in a coma she needs to block her love bank to others.

However the lack of an integrated lifestyle and undivided attention causes a great hunger. Most women fall victim to depression. Her choices were: endure the depression, tell you about it and the highly likely possibility of separation (which she probably did not want while hungry for ENs) or get a top up of attention elsewhere.

Its easy to see what the best choice is. But she chose the worst and regrets it.


Last edited by indiegirl; 01/30/15 05:02 AM.

What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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To clarify the maturity comment was not a shot at her. It was meant to express a fear that she may not want to commit to good boundaries because she likes the attention. The dance was not an innocent shimmy she grabbed the edge of a wall at the end of it and ground down and back up in a very sexual manner. I suggested I was sure she didn't mean to do it but that kind of thing might invite unwanted attention from the guy or guys in general.

We had the boundaries talk last night. I started by explaining what good marriage boundaries are and how I have shown bad boundaries a couple times recently without realizing. Then I expained what we both need in terms of boundaricontinue he was a little short with me at one point like she was not committed to the conversation. I addressed it and she reeled herself in and apologized. We finished the conversation I think constructively. I am trying to put my insecurities at ease a bit and create a positive feeling so we can move forward. i will continue to encourage these MB princples and see how things progress.

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Originally Posted by Burned13
I am trying to put my insecurities at ease a bit and create a positive feeling so we can move forward. i will continue to encourage these MB princples and see how things progress.

SHE needs to stop doing things that make you insecure. When she does something inappropriate, you should tell her right away how uncomfortable it makes you feel. Ask her to stop. Don't be rude, but inform her of things that make you uncomfortable.

From what you describe, it sounds like she is looking for action. Where did she do this grind? Was she in a bar? Drinking?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by Burned13
To clarify the maturity comment was not a shot at her. It was meant to express a fear that she may not want to commit to good boundaries because she likes the attention. The dance was not an innocent shimmy she grabbed the edge of a wall at the end of it and ground down and back up in a very sexual manner. I suggested I was sure she didn't mean to do it but that kind of thing might invite unwanted attention from the guy or guys in general.

We had the boundaries talk last night. I started by explaining what good marriage boundaries are and how I have shown bad boundaries a couple times recently without realizing. Then I expained what we both need in terms of boundaricontinue he was a little short with me at one point like she was not committed to the conversation. I addressed it and she reeled herself in and apologized. We finished the conversation I think constructively. I am trying to put my insecurities at ease a bit and create a positive feeling so we can move forward. i will continue to encourage these MB princples and see how things progress.


This was a trickier conversation than it needed to be because of the lack of exposure. If full exposure had been done she would be DYING for tips on showing improvements and restoring reputation.

As it is, she is quite un-foggy considering. There's a bit of fog and defensiveness there but usually without exposure the reaction is to call you controlling and jealous and stomp off to the nearest bar.



What would you do if you were not afraid?

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We were at a food truck festival and yes we had some drinks. She did not grind with him or me she just was dancing and grabbed a near by wall end and did a very sexual grind down and up. It seems she tends to be a little more promiscuous when alcohol is involved. There was one other incident that made me uncomfortable. We were at a party with a lot of people we did not know. She got talking to a woman and of course we were all drinking. She was outside with this woman and her husband and they said they were leaving and I saw her hug the husband. She was going to hug the wife after but she saw my face and came to me immediately. It is not common for her to hug someone she just met and it was her that offered the hug not him. I talked to her about it and we both agreed it was not appropriate.

Our sex life was not spectacular previous to the affair. Since the affair it has become 10 times better and we have experienced things we have never before.

What do you mean looking for action please clarify. Also why would she be looking for action after what she did, all of the effort I have made to fill her love bank and make her life better?

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She was exposed to her family. Her Mom Dad and Sister all know about it. I decided I did not want my family to find out and have life long resentment towards her. Seeing how bad emotionally things get when the guilt hits her hard usually when we talked about it. Like I said near nervous break down type extreme emotional reactions.

She has made efforts to make me feel better at times. She has done a few very special things for me to try and show she cares. A lot more in the beginning. When we get into discussions about what she did or something related I keep asking why are you not begging for my forgiveness and treating me better. It feels like I have been the one begging for her forgiveness going so far to make her happy.

She has been struggling to get a hold of her anger and has lashed out at me a few times like the old her. I told her when I see those old bad anger habits it makes me feel like I am looking and talking to the person that decided to have the affair. She felt really horrible when I put it into that perspective and has tried hard to avoid that. I still just don't get the gut feeling that I am so important and valuable to her that she would do anything to keep me. That's a big reason why I am still struggling to feel comfortable inside.

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I should also add I found out after the affair that they had kissed once before years ago. We were all out drinking and apparently they kissed in the back of the cab while I was in the front seat. We had A LOT to drink that night. Our relationship has had ups and downs so I can't say her bucket was full back then either. Maybe that's the reason why she kissed him or just drunk and really really had a huge attraction to him. Thoughts???

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Originally Posted by Burned13
What do you mean looking for action please clarify. Also why would she be looking for action after what she did, all of the effort I have made to fill her love bank and make her life better?

Her behavior around men sends the message that she is very much OPEN FOR BUSINESS and is actively seeking attention. Hugging men, flirting and grinding in public is intended to send out that message.

You can fill her love bank all you want, but it won't make a difference if she is trolling for action.


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Originally Posted by Burned13
She was exposed to her family. Her Mom Dad and Sister all know about it. I decided I did not want my family to find out and have life long resentment towards her. Seeing how bad emotionally things get when the guilt hits her hard usually when we talked about it. Like I said near nervous break down type extreme emotional reactions.

That might not be a bad thing. I would suggest that she is a big girl and can handle this. It doesn't help her one bit to protect her from the consequences of her affair. As the mother of a 31 year old married son, I would not appreciate being left out of a such a serious event in my son's life.

Not sure, though, why you assume they would have "lifelong resentment?" Most family members just want to see you treated well.

Why don't you ask her to tell them?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by Burned13
I should also add I found out after the affair that they had kissed once before years ago. We were all out drinking and apparently they kissed in the back of the cab while I was in the front seat. We had A LOT to drink that night. Our relationship has had ups and downs so I can't say her bucket was full back then either. Maybe that's the reason why she kissed him or just drunk and really really had a huge attraction to him. Thoughts???

I would avoid parties, drinking and most especially, old boyfriends/romantic interests.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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It seems she tends to be a little more promiscuous when alcohol is involved.
Everybody is. You may have answered this already, but I don't see it: Have you given up alcohol?


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So what does this mean? Why would she be wanting to troll for action and what can I do about it? We have talked about what to do in the event one of us sees the other crossing a line and that we will talk and refocus our attention on each other. What happens when I am not around? Do I have something to be worried about and what do I do? This is boiling down to the real reason I am reaching out for help. I DONT WANT TO GET BURNED AGAIN!!!! (not yelling just passionate)

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Originally Posted by Burned13
So what does this mean? Why would she be wanting to troll for action and what can I do about it? We have talked about what to do in the event one of us sees the other crossing a line and that we will talk and refocus our attention on each other. What happens when I am not around? Do I have something to be worried about and what do I do? This is boiling down to the real reason I am reaching out for help. I DONT WANT TO GET BURNED AGAIN!!!! (not yelling just passionate)

What you can do about it is eliminate the environment in which this happens. That means stop drinking, stop going to parties and avoid old romantic interests. Stay out of the environment in which either of you "cross the line."

She needs to make radical changes in her boundaries around men. She is a loose cannon.



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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She needs to get her anger under control.

Have you listened to these clips? Will she get help for her anger?
Anger Management 101


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Burned13
She was exposed to her family. Her Mom Dad and Sister all know about it. I decided I did not want my family to find out and have life long resentment towards her. Seeing how bad emotionally things get when the guilt hits her hard usually when we talked about it. Like I said near nervous break down type extreme emotional reactions.

That might not be a bad thing. I would suggest that she is a big girl and can handle this. It doesn't help her one bit to protect her from the consequences of her affair. As the mother of a 31 year old married son, I would not appreciate being left out of a such a serious event in my son's life.

Not sure, though, why you assume they would have "lifelong resentment?" Most family members just want to see you treated well.

Why don't you ask her to tell them?


You'll never recover without this step. By assuming this would be a lifetime issue you make it one and sentence her to a lifetime of secrecy and shame.

I agree about the drinking and partying. Those are conditions which make everyone stupid. It's only for people without responsibilities like marriage.



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Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Burned13
She was exposed to her family. Her Mom Dad and Sister all know about it. I decided I did not want my family to find out and have life long resentment towards her. Seeing how bad emotionally things get when the guilt hits her hard usually when we talked about it. Like I said near nervous break down type extreme emotional reactions.

That might not be a bad thing. I would suggest that she is a big girl and can handle this. It doesn't help her one bit to protect her from the consequences of her affair. As the mother of a 31 year old married son, I would not appreciate being left out of a such a serious event in my son's life.

Not sure, though, why you assume they would have "lifelong resentment?" Most family members just want to see you treated well.

Why don't you ask her to tell them?


You'll never recover without this step. By assuming this would be a lifetime issue you make it one and sentence her to a lifetime of secrecy and shame.

I agree about the drinking and partying. Those are conditions which make everyone stupid. It's only for people without responsibilities like marriage.
And Dr. Harley states that all conditions that allowed the affair must be changed. So she needs to quit drinking.


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I was particularly apprehensive about exposing to my family as I thought a) definitely lifetime grudge and b) probable violence from my very protective dad. I still don't understand how he never got an [censored] kicking from my father!

I was surprised at the wonderful and rather sensible reaction from all - their reaction was close to mine. They wanted us to stay together but also see reassurances. Except for my dad.

My father gave me money to go buy garbage bags for his stuff and said he would never lay eyes on him again. He was very upset that I was considering recovery - my spouse was unremorseful at this stage to boot.

I just rode out the storm reiterating that I had high standards and that I would secure my future.

My exWH never did come round but my father did. He believes utterly in MB and feels if xWH had followed the checklist he would have become a SIL to be proud of.

I got my father to come round to the MB plan even with a totally unremorseful spouse!

Don't deprive your wife of the chance to prove herself and move on honestly and honourably. Don't keep her stalled. Don't decide she is nothing more than a skeleton in a closet.

Do you think she doesn't have it in her to inspire faith? One of the reasons your faith is shaky is because you are doing this alone without support!

Maybe, like my ex, she doesn't have it in her. That's why exposure is such an important test. She's a big girl and it's in her capabilities to be remorseful and demonstrate change.


Last edited by indiegirl; 01/31/15 08:37 AM.

What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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