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I'm new here and need advice and figured this might be the right place. This post is going to be long, while some of this seems pretty text book other parts are not.

A little background: my wife and I have been together for 8 years, living together for 5 of those years and married for 2. Like a lot of people in my situation, I had always believed that there was no way my wife could ever cheat, that it just wasn't in her character to do so. Our relationship had always been a very loving one; and although routine had begun to set in and life wasn't as exciting as it was in those early years, we still cared for each other very much and both of us seemed to be happy at home.

In recent months my wife had shown a lot more interest in going out on the weekend drinking then I had, so I didn't always go out with her. She was always with mutual friends who I trusted and I figured it was healthy to allow each other to have space (I know now this was a mistake!), but she started returning from these nights out later and later and while I didn't think she was being unfaithful, I was starting to feel hurt that she'd rather spend time out without me than time at home with me. I told myself that I was just being jealous, and that letting her live her own life was good for our marriage, so I held my peace. Then even more recently, even when we were both out together, if I wanted to go home earlier than she did she would come home with me and then drive back out. She would do this even if she had been drinking, and whenever I told her I didn't want her to be drink driving she would just insist that she was fine to drive. Even though I my wife's behaviour was hurting me, we still had a happy home life and I wasn't jealous. That all changed about 2 or 3 weeks ago.

My wife abruptly became more distant from me at home. She would go straight to the other side of the bed while we were sleeping, even though she usually loves to snuggle up (and it's currently winter where we live, so cuddles are always appreciated!). Conversation just seemed somehow colder, less affectionate than before. On the surface it doesn't sound like much, but her change in behaviour was setting off alarm bells in my head and I began to suspect that she was seeing someone else.

Over the weekend, we went out to watch a very good mutual friend's band play (this mutual friend is not the OM, but he is important to the rest of my story, so I will refer to him as MF). I noticed that both my wife and another guy, who was a friend of ours but not a particularly close one, were acting strangely. They both disappeared at one point in the night and MF asked me where she was, I said I didn't know, then he asked me if I'd seen OM. MF went to look for OM and I went to look for my wife, and a few minutes later I found them sitting next to each other with MF standing in front of them. I said "hi" to my wife and she only grunted in response. Almost immediately both AM and my wife made excuses to go back inside. Later I was standing outside with my wife and some other friends, when OM walked out, saw us and immediately turned around and walked back inside. My wife followed shortly after. One of the other people commented "He's acting really weird tonight". I shrugged and then excused myself and followed them inside. They were sitting at a table together with her hand resting on his, when I joined them she kept it there for a while and then pulled it away quickly, as if she didn't even realise it was there at first.

Then all of a sudden OM flips over the table and tries to start a fight with a stranger. My heart pounding, I took my wife by the arm and walked her out of the venue. When we were on the street I asked what was going on and why everyone was acting weird, and she confessed she had been having an affair with OM for the past 2-3 weeks. Naturally, I was shocked and angry, and asked the usual questions: how could she do this? what was she thinking? what did I do to drive her to another man? She said she didn't know, that I hadn't done anything and she loves me but she was just enjoying being out without me so much and it happened. Then she said she loves him too, and that she isn't sure if she wants to be married anymore, and you can imagine how that felt. She said maybe she should move in with her parents for a while to figure things out, and I said "if you don't want to be married what's there to figure out?"

We went home and she filled in the details I wanted to know. She insisted there hadn't been anyone else besides the OM, they hadn't actually had sex (although I don't doubt it would have gotten that far eventually if I hadn't found out) and she told me what happened the night they got together. Then she gave me her phone and let me read her messages. The sheer number of messages they had exchanged sickened me to my stomach, I couldn't even get through them all!

I went to bed and she stayed out on the couch. I spent a sleepless night wondering how the hell we got to this point and what was I going to do now? I just couldn't think of anyway my life could be happy again. hours passed and my anger subsided, and despite how hurt and betrayed I felt I realised I didn't hate my wife. In fact I still loved her. Then I asked myself what kind of a person I would be if I gave up so easily on someone who I had vowed to be with, protect and support forever; who I had told thousands of times that I loved her and meant it every time. So I went out to her and told her that when I said we should just get divorced I was speaking out of anger, and that I was willing to try to reconcile if she was. She said she needed to think about it.

My wife went out to do the food shopping the next day, and I spent most of the afternoon looking for advice on the internet and found MB. Alot of the articles seemed to make sense to my situation, and I felt prepared to discuss things calmly and honestly with my wife when she got home. We came to an agreement that she live with her parents for a while to "think about everything" (I told her I didn't think this was a good idea and that we couldn't work on our problems if we were apart but she wouldn't budge on this one). I told her that if she decided to reconcile it would be absolutely necessary that the first thing she would do is end all contact with OM immediately (using the method reccomended on this website), and she agreed that would be the first step if we reconcile. I also requested that she would not see OM while she was "making up her mind", and she looked me in the eye and promised that she wouldn't. I believe she was being sincere (that doesn't mean I'm naive enough to think it's impossible that she will break it). We also agreed to meet for lunch this Saturday.

Now to the part where things get complicated. I turned to the mutual friend (MF) that I mentioned earlier for support. He told me that OM, who had been his best friend for 15 years, had confessed the affair to him earlier in the evening of the night I found out about it. In no uncertain terms, MF told him that he was disgusted, and that their friendship could no longer continue after this. OM couldn't even see what he had done wrong! He then told me more about OM's history.

OM is 31 years old, unemployed and lives with his parents. He has been on antidepressant medication since his mid-teens. The reason why MF broke off their friendship is that he had seen OM repeat a pattern with every woman he had ever been with. He would look for covert ways to be close to a woman he was interested in but barely knew right from the start. Then he would start telling her all the things she would want to hear, and then when a relationship starts he would use his depression as an excuse for mistreating her and emotionally blackmail her if she ever tried to leave. MF said he was most certainly repeating this pattern with my wife, and he didn't want to see two his good friends get hurt because of OM's selfishness. OM doesn't really have any other friends, because his behaviour in the past has driven them all away. In fact, he has even contacted MF and said that if MF stops being his friend he will have no one, as my wife is no longer speaking to him. I was already concerned about the safety of my wife and myself after OM's outburst, but after hearing this character assesment (from a friend of his no less!) I am worried that if we do try to reconcile he will make problems, and if we don't and she leaves me for him he will end up hurting her. I know I can't hope to be objective about the OM but it seems that at best he's self-centred and irresponsible, and at worst he's a sociopath (I have been friends with a sociopath before and noticed many of the same behavioural patterns).

So while I am here for general advice, I have one question in particular regarding exposure. Having read about exposure on this site I can see the sense in it, and I am definitely going to contact my in-laws (we get on very well) and my wife's best friends. But I don't know what to do about OM. It sounds like most his friends long abandoned him (and those few he had left were present that night and it has already been exposed to them) but what of his parents? While I could possibly get their contact details through MF (this would be the only way, he has unfriended me on facebook so I cannot see his contact list), I'm worried if I expose to his family he may act unpredictably and violently, potentially harming my wife, myself, or himself.

I think the fog might be lifting for my wife (his outburst and texts from MF telling her about OM's history may have helped with this). I sent her an article from MB and she told me the next evening that she has been reading a lot of articles on the site. We are keeping in regular contact through text, and although OM might have been lying to get MF to remain his friend, it sounds like for now at least she has stopped contact with him (and she hasn't even told me she has done this herself). I really want this marriage to have the absolute best chance of survival, so if anyone has any advice for dealing with a potentially dangerous OM I would appreciate it.

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Originally Posted by PatientOne
I I also requested that she would not see OM while she was "making up her mind", and she looked me in the eye and promised that she wouldn't. I believe she was being sincere (that doesn't mean I'm naive enough to think it's impossible that she will break it). We also agreed to meet for lunch this Saturday.

Hi PatientOne, welcome to Marriage Builders. Sorry for the reasons that have brought you here. Your wife moved out so she could conduct her affair without your interference. Waywards can all look someone in the eye and swear to anything. It means nothing.

If you want to save your marriage, you will need to expose the affair, most especially to the OM's contacts. I would enlist your "MF" to copy and paste his Facebook friends list and email to you. You can then expose to his Facebook contacts. I would also find out where he lives and take a drive to his parents house and meet them in person. It would be even better if your mother in law or father in law went with you.

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what did I do to drive her to another man?

Your wife's behavior is what drove her to another man. She has poor boundaries for a married woman. You both lead the lifestyle of single people by hanging out in bars. I promise you unless that lifestyle changes and she develops appropriate boundaries around men, you are facing more affairs.



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Sorry you are here but welcome.

Originally Posted by PatientOne
I think the fog might be lifting for my wife (his outburst and texts from MF telling her about OM's history may have helped with this).

I knew you were heading for trouble when I read the title of your post. The OM's problems and background are pretty irrelevant to this issue. Most WS affair down, that's COMMON.

What is also pretty common is for a newly BS to want to blame the OP vs looking at their WS.

Along the lines of what MelodyLane said, going out, drinking at bars and chatting with members of the OS is an affair waiting to happen. That's gonna have to all change if you decide to recover with her.

But first things first, you haven't even done what needs to be done to kill this affair dead.


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Originally Posted by PatientOne
I think the fog might be lifting for my wife (his outburst and texts from MF telling her about OM's history may have helped with this).

I am sorry but your WW's fog is not lifting. You cannot listen to a wayward's words. A wayward will lie and lie and then lie some more. Her promising to stay away from the OM is meaningless.

What you need to look at are her actions....

A WS moving out is code for wanting freedom in order to conduct her affair. Anyone who has spent any time at all on this forum will be able to tell you that. Again, this is a common tactic employed by a WS.



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I sent her an article from MB and she told me the next evening that she has been reading a lot of articles on the site.

Nononononononon.

Nooo

Do not bring her here yet. Do NOT bring it up again and if she does change the subject or distract her.

I repeat DO NOT send her to MB.

Please focus on killing this affair first.


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Thankyou all for your replies.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
If you want to save your marriage, you will need to expose the affair, most especially to the OM's contacts. I would enlist your "MF" to copy and paste his Facebook friends list and email to you. You can then expose to his Facebook contacts. I would also find out where he lives and take a drive to his parents house and meet them in person. It would be even better if your mother in law or father in law went with you.

I'm fully on board for exposure, I just wasn't sure what to do about a potentially violent OM. I know in "Surviving an Affair" Dr. Harley recomends to not expose when a WS is violent, I wasn't sure if something similar applies to a potentially violent OM.

Originally Posted by SusieQ
The OM's problems and background are pretty irrelevant to this issue. Most WS affair down, that's COMMON.

I guess the attention on OM in my post was a little misleading. I am aware that my wife is a grown woman and is fully responsible for her own actions, and saving our marriage will require lifestyle changes for both my wife and myself. The reason for my attention on OM's behaviour was to get some advice on what to do if OM does create problems (especially if he gets violent) so that I can be prepared when it happens, as if he does I might have to act without having time to post more questions and wait for answers.

Originally Posted by SusieQ
I am sorry but your WW's fog is not lifting. You cannot listen to a wayward's words. A wayward will lie and lie and then lie some more. Her promising to stay away from the OM is meaningless.

Yeah, you are probably right. Today my wife told me that she has ceased contact with OM and that she wants to work with me to fix our marriage, and as much as my heart wants to believe her, my head keeps telling me that there are so many similar stories to ours where the WS said one thing and did another. I will keep focus on killing the affair and convincing my wife to move back in.

Originally Posted by SusieQ
Do not bring her here yet. Do NOT bring it up again and if she does change the subject or distract her.

oops. I guess it's too late now. I keep thinking I'm doing the right thing for my marriage and it seems to always be a mistake.

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Tell us about exposure. where are you at and what's the plan?


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Originally Posted by PatientOne
I'm fully on board for exposure, I just wasn't sure what to do about a potentially violent OM. I know in "Surviving an Affair" Dr. Harley recomends to not expose when a WS is violent, I wasn't sure if something similar applies to a potentially violent OM.

He always recommends exposure even with a potentially violent spouse. He just recommends taking precautions if necessary.
Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
After the separation is complete, and she is safe, I recommend exposure of the affair. Plan A is ruled out, and plan B is followed (no contact between spouses). Contact is restored only after the violent husband has enrolled in an anger management program, has no contact with the lover, and is willing to begin a program of marital reconciliation.
here

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I guess the attention on OM in my post was a little misleading. I am aware that my wife is a grown woman and is fully responsible for her own actions, and saving our marriage will require lifestyle changes for both my wife and myself. The reason for my attention on OM's behaviour was to get some advice on what to do if OM does create problems (especially if he gets violent) so that I can be prepared when it happens, as if he does I might have to act without having time to post more questions and wait for answers.

Call the police and have him arrested if he acts out.

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Yeah, you are probably right. Today my wife told me that she has ceased contact with OM and that she wants to work with me to fix our marriage, and as much as my heart wants to believe her, my head keeps telling me that there are so many similar stories to ours where the WS said one thing and did another. I will keep focus on killing the affair and convincing my wife to move back in.

Exactly. Talk is cheap. You should focus on exposing the affair wide and far.

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oops. I guess it's too late now. I keep thinking I'm doing the right thing for my marriage and it seems to always be a mistake.

It will be the right thing when her affair is over and she wants to recover her marriage.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Sir,

My ex wife had an affair with a convicted felon with a violent criminal history and i exposed her affair fully.
of course, i was raised on John Wayne movies and would have killed him if he got violent with me.

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Most OMs seem to be very weak men based on what I've seen here and in my own situation. Not someone you should at all be intimidated by. Strong men find women who are actually available.

If you're worried about OM coming to you after exposure, I suggest you look into self defense and stop worrying about that, because it is silly. If you're worried about confronting him, take some friends with you. Trust me, the violent emotions you have are probably much stronger than his. He is the one that should be scared of you.


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2 baby boys, working on #3 and couldn't ask for anything more.

When my ex's affair happened: BH 28, Ex-WW:29
Married: 7 years
Together: 8 years
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Originally Posted by SusieQ
Tell us about exposure. where are you at and what's the plan?

Exposure has partially occurred by accident, due to OM's public display on the night in question. Since the night I have been confiding in various friends for support more than anything. Between the people who were there or who I have told news has spread very quickly, people I haven't seen in years have contacted me to offer support during the week.

So by now most if not all of my wife's, OM's and my own extended circle of friends know about the affair, but neither my wife's or OM's families do. As for my wife's family, a spanner is in the works as before I read anything about exposure on marriage builders I asked her if she was going to tell her parents and she said she knows that she should tell them but since they haven't asked her any questions she prefers to leave it alone. So she already knows I am in favour of exposure (which I know she shouldn't as exposure should come as a surprise). In regards to OM's family, everyone I know has either deleted him from Facebook or he has deleted them, so I'm not sure how I would find contact details for them.

An update on the situation:

So my wife remained at her parent's place for the week as stated in the original post. During this time I kept correspondence with her over the phone and through text, starting from the day after she moved out and texting her every day during her lunch break and in the evenings. I guess I was enacting plan A here and I seemed to do it pretty well; as the week went on our conversations got warmer and longer. By the end of the week talking to her was actually the highlight of my day, and I think hers too (although I was kind of worried that things were going to well too soon and that she was just telling me what I wanted to hear).

We had lunch together on Saturday as we had discussed when she moved out. I had planned to ask her to come home and from the beginning she was dropping hints that she wanted to, it didn't take any convincing at all to get her to agree (she already had her bags in the car in case I asked her).

When we got home we had a conversation that lasted several hours; she filled me in with details about what happened over the last week, details about the affair and we both spoke about how we have felt about our relationship over the past year. There is too much to contain in one post so I will stick to the details of the last week.

She broke her promise to see OM during the week (well, she kind of broke her promise). His outburst last weekend frightened her (my wife dislike's confrontation at the best of times) and she had began hearing things about his past and wanted to debrief with him so to speak, so she arranged to meet him in a public place on Tuesday and she claims she was only going to talk with him and nothing else. He didn't show up, and she said the longer she waited the more she kept wondering what she was even doing there, that she shouldn't have even been giving him a chance to explain himself.

The next night he messaged her to say he had arrived early but then left as he was afraid she was going to break it off with him, and asked if they could meet that night instead. Her response was she wasn't going to meet him that night or ever, and that they would never speak again. He messaged her since that but she ignored his messages, she was willing to show me her phone when I asked to see (although she had already deleted the previous correspondence with him, but I had already seen most of that) and I showed her how to block him from messaging again, although I suggested she change her number as well. When I asked how she feels about him now and whether she misses him she said "no, I only feel bitterness towards him".

So now that she's back what's the plan? Do I continue with plan A in case she is seeing him in secret (the story she gave me seems to detailed to make up, and there is stuff in there which certainly isn't "what I want to hear" so I believe her even though I don't trust her anymore), or do I bring her hear and start with the next stages of Dr Harley's plan? She is willing to give me details of her activities and show me her messages without getting defensive. I guess since her first boyfriend cheated on her she understands how I feel and wants to do everything she can to help me trust her again.

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Keep plan A'ing and read the book His Needs Her Needs. I assume you already read Surviving An Affair.

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Also do not reveal how you get your intelligence to your WW for you will need to verify that NC is in place.

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Also no more GNO's, WW must get rid of the toxic girl friends.

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Originally Posted by PatientOne
Originally Posted by SusieQ
Tell us about exposure. where are you at and what's the plan?

Exposure has partially occurred by accident, due to OM's public display on the night in question. Since the night I have been confiding in various friends for support more than anything. Between the people who were there or who I have told news has spread very quickly, people I haven't seen in years have contacted me to offer support during the week.

So by now most if not all of my wife's, OM's and my own extended circle of friends know about the affair, but neither my wife's or OM's families do. As for my wife's family, a spanner is in the works as before I read anything about exposure on marriage builders I asked her if she was going to tell her parents and she said she knows that she should tell them but since they haven't asked her any questions she prefers to leave it alone. So she already knows I am in favour of exposure (which I know she shouldn't as exposure should come as a surprise). In regards to OM's family, everyone I know has either deleted him from Facebook or he has deleted them, so I'm not sure how I would find contact details for them.

Expose the affair. Please follow the instructions to expose the affair and come back afterwards with an update. [not to write a long winded post, but to tell me the exact steps you took in exposure and the results] Go read the exposure thread in my signature and follow the instructions. You need to personally call or email or Facebook PM everyone on the exposure list, not count on "someone telling them." They need to hear it from you.

You don't seem to be taking the advice. We cannot help you if you don't take the advice. The affair needs to be exposed and done right away. You have a very small window of opportunity to run off the OM and are squandering it.


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Originally Posted by PatientOne
[ I asked her if she was going to tell her parents and she said she knows that she should tell them but since they haven't asked her any questions she prefers to leave it alone.

Exposure does not mean that SHE tells them, it means that YOU tell them using the talking points in my exposure thread.


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I gave you this advice on 9-1-2015. Please follow it if you want to have a chance at saving your marriage.


Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by PatientOne
I I also requested that she would not see OM while she was "making up her mind", and she looked me in the eye and promised that she wouldn't. I believe she was being sincere (that doesn't mean I'm naive enough to think it's impossible that she will break it). We also agreed to meet for lunch this Saturday.

Hi PatientOne, welcome to Marriage Builders. Sorry for the reasons that have brought you here. Your wife moved out so she could conduct her affair without your interference. Waywards can all look someone in the eye and swear to anything. It means nothing.

If you want to save your marriage, you will need to expose the affair, most especially to the OM's contacts. I would enlist your "MF" to copy and paste his Facebook friends list and email to you. You can then expose to his Facebook contacts. I would also find out where he lives and take a drive to his parents house and meet them in person. It would be even better if your mother in law or father in law went with you.

Quote
what did I do to drive her to another man?

Your wife's behavior is what drove her to another man. She has poor boundaries for a married woman. You both lead the lifestyle of single people by hanging out in bars. I promise you unless that lifestyle changes and she develops appropriate boundaries around men, you are facing more affairs.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Even if the OM is a medium-violent psychopath, he will probably not be wanting to get into trouble for a women he has only been in a relationship with for a week.

The trick is: your wife should get rid of her phone number(s), because he will probably try for some time to get a hold of her and the sooner he realizes this is not happening, the better.

Every time he has even a little succes, this will continue and will increase the chances of him hanging on and the more he invests in her, the more the potiential for violence fron his side increases. A clear cut is the best you can do and exposure is very important here. A 1 time short no contact letter from wife to OM is needed (don't you ever contact me again).

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and certainly no more meetings.


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OK I know it's been a long time since I posted, I took the advice posted here and have been lurking other threads but I'm starting to feel I should have kept this thread going. I'll give a quick recap of the last two months:

- I exposed to all my wife's contacts and family but was unable to get information for OM's family.
- Wife is still at home and read SAA with me up to and including the section on love busters. Did the love busters questionnaire together.
- I had her smart phone unlock pin (unbeknownst to her) which gave me access to her email, Facebook and all her phone/text message records. Saw no evidence of continued contact with OM during this time.
- He attempted to text her once about a month into R, she blocked his number and deleted the text, then told me about it immediately (she had previously blocked him on Facebook IM as stated in a previous post).
- around that time I asked for access to all her accounts and she happily gave them to me, I did the same for her.
- We have also fully accounted for time with each other, and have spent most of our time together (excluding work hours), no more nights out without each other.

So I guess we have completed the checklist for "how affairs should end", and I am satisfied that no-contact is firmly in place.

I now have some questions regarding the current stage in our R, should I post in this thread or start a new thread in the "in recovery" section of the forums?

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