Hello,

I am back to the forums. Have not been here in a long while. I updated my signature line (is that what it is called?). Since I was last on the forum we worked MB principals I'd say for 6-9 months then fell off and went back to coasting. Not scheduling UA, letting LBs creep in every once in a while. We had peaks and valleys for a few years. We decided to have another child (during a good time in our marriage) so now we have two DC.

Needless to say our relationship is a mess and there are so many issues that I am not sure if they can be fixed or if it's worth fixing. I will try to list out the issues.

#1 A few months ago my DH said he felt I did not love him and made some complaints about things I was doing, like not initiating enough SF, AOs. He did not use these terms exactly but it boiled down to not meeting ENs and committing LBs. I immediately worked to address the ENs and worked on stopping LBs. I am still working on stopping LBs, AOs and LBs are my worst. We recently completed the LB questionnaire, we are supposed to sit down tonight and go through them together.

#2 A couple weeks after the initial conversation in #1 above, I found out that he has met a female friend in his new grad program. Needless to say I was upset as he was keeping this hidden from me. Now I moved back in to having AOs and making DJs (no excuse for that behavior). Given our past history I was upset and immediately started snooping and preparing for exposure. At that time the conversation did not seem to be anything he would not say to a male friend so I didn't have anything to expose. I did tell our family that he has taken friendship with a woman knowing that I was not in agreement, they all know our past history. I am no longer snooping as he learned that I put spy ware on his phone and he was upset and now changed the password and guards it with his life. I still see text messages to and from her on our phone bill but I do not know the content of the messages. He was assigned to do group work with her at the beginning of the semester so I can not be sure what the messages are. I am trying to avoid AOs so I have not asked DH about this recently. The frequency and number of texts have lowered since I spoke with him and her a few weeks back when I first found out he was talking to this woman behind my back. Moral of this is that DH has poor boundaries when it comes to these friendships, we do not agree as to what is appropriate. My preference is that he would not have any new female friends. This for me is the biggest issue as even if we fix our connection to each other, if we do not agree on what the boundaries are, then my thought is that we will always be at odds and I will never be able to trust him.

#3 He is not a believer in the MB program. He agreed to work the program last time as he didn't want to lose our family. We have never really sustained a romantic, in-love type relationship for more than a few months so he doesn't think it's even possible. At this point, he says that he is not sure he wants to stay married.

He has been attending coaching calls as I signed us up before things went really downhill which was prior to my snooping and prior to him saying that he is not motivated to work on the marriage "right now".

We have two kids which is the only reason why I feel that I am so conflicted on whether I should call it quits or try to fight for my marriage. In the end, I want a marriage where I am best friends with my spouse and we are in love with each other. He doesn't agree that spouses should be best friends and is ok with friendships with the opposite sex, these are huge issues that I am not sure can be overcome?

Thanks for reading, and I welcome advice on how to tell whether I should just call it quits or keep fighting.

I remember you and sorry you are back.


This is unacceptable, RedsWife. The is not a "friendship". It is a budding EA if not more. Your H refuses to implement EPs and you two never recovered your M. This should be in SAA for any one of those three reasons, never mind all three.

I will notify the mods for you.

What is unacceptable exactly?

#1) ANY friendship with members of the opposite sex - regardless of whether it is a coworker or for any other reason, period.

#2) Lack of transparency

#3) A former ? WS saying that they are not a believer in MB - this is code for I refuse to give up my IB, SSL and make my marriage a priority. I have yet to see where this is not the case.

Any one of these issues ALONE is grounds for a move to Plan B for a BW, Redswife. And you have all three issues.

And now we have an additional issue:
If you were to resolve 1, 2 and 3 above, he will have to leave this grad program or she will have to.

Also your WH has such poor boundaries that he will need extra ExtraOrdinary Precautions since he has strayed several times. He probably cannot work or even be in an enviroment where he is spending long hours alone with women that he can chat with.

Him not allowing you transparency to the cell phone is unacceptable.

Him not believing in the Marriage Builders program is fine - but he needs to believe that he will LOSE you if he does not follow the program and provide you full transparency to any aspect of his life that you want to look at.

Totally agree. His guarding his cell phone is the only you need to go by after what you have been through. Can you plant a VAR (voice activated recorder) in his car?

Stop the angry outbursts, you know that. I only glanced at your old threads, but you know that any love busters right now will only hurt yourself in the long run, irregardless of what you choose to do. Do you want to call it quits?

Thanks SusieQ.

I agree that he probably cannot work or even be in an environment where he is spending long hours alone chatting with women. I am not sure whether he would give up his IB and put such EPs in place. Which if he doesn't then, I know that I should just call it quits.

markos and BlindSighted2013, thanks. I see his lack of transparency as a red flag as well. Up until he found out I put the spyware on his phone recently, I had all of his passwords and etc. I have thought about putting a VAR in his car. Will look in to it.

If he doesn't stop the IB and put EPs in place, then yes, I do. As much as it would hurt my children, I know that I can not continue to be married to someone who I can not trust & verify. I am just not sure of when or how to have this conversation with my H.

I listened to Dr. Harley's radio clips on AOs and have been AO free for the past two weeks. Thought I have had to avoid asking some questions and leave the house to avoid saying anything while I worked on thinking calm and relaxing thoughts when getting frustrated and angry.

RW, I would have this discussion with him immediately. Lay out the extraordinary precautions and if he won't agree and follow up with radical and verifiable changes, he should be asked to leave.

You can use this checklist as a guide along with my post on my exposure thread titled "The Aftermath"

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

i just read that this has been going on for years, so I don't recommend giving him those conditions because it will do no good. You should separate and file for divorce. Sadly, your husband will not stop and I think you know this.

Here you go. How to Plan B Correctly

But he has already been given the chance and has shown you that he is not willing to protect your M. He is chatting it up with women and refusing you access to his phone...he is actively unwilling.

Do you want to have to brow beat him and threaten him with divorce -- when he has already done this to you before -- in order to get him to behave for a short time? That's just kicking the can down the road.

Having a death grip on a WS is not pretty, RW. Not only is this not a good dynamic for your M - like markos eluded to earlier, you have set the bar so low that your WH knows he doesn't have to really make the is M a priority over things like grad school and girlfriends to chat with -- but this is extremely bad for your health.

Having lived with a WS who loved chatting it up with members of the OS -- while being gaslighted that I was worrying over nothing -- was a very dark time for me. It was like a huge cloud was lifted once I let go. I honestly don't know how I lived with that kind of stress.

#2 is in reference to someone new. He has had NC with the woman he was in an EA with ever since he sent her the NC letter in Jan 2010.

We have another MB coaching call scheduled this week so, I'll keep with it and trust the plan SH has for us. I will be sure to discuss with SH the advice for Plan B, Plan D and will work on putting the list of EPs in place.

ML knows that this is in reference to a new OW.

That's exactly what she is referring to, the fact that your WH is doing this AGAIN. This is a different situation tha, I was chatting with someone at work, and they met my ENs and OOPS I fell in love and don't know how this happened!

Your WH is a multiple offender (a much worse situation than what you think ML was referring to, broke NC with OW1) who looks to get his needs met outside of the marriage and he doesn't care about your feelings on it - clearly.

Coaching with SH would be GREAT if your WH was needing motivation and encouragement with the ENs, avoiding LB$ and UA/POJA part of the program.

Coaching does not help you when you have a multiple offending WH in the throes of an EA, refusing EPs and transparency, who leads a lifestyle that has left the door wide open for him to chat with women.

You can't "talk" a wayward out of an affair, Redswife - you know this.

Redswife, will you please let us coach you to do what Marriage Builders says to do in such a situation?

Because you need to draw a line and separate from your husband until and unless he agrees to actually follow Marriage Builders.

This is what Dr. Harley recommends in situations like yours.

I am going to take everyone's advice and separate from my husband. I am not going to move directly to Plan D but will move in to Plan B with a legal separation. If he will not agree to actually following Marriage Builders then I will move to Plan D. We have to wait a year for a D in my home state anyway.

I have spoken with an attorney who will be drawing up some paperwork. I want to be sure to we have a legal agreement given we have two children involved and I will be moving out of state.

Thanks for being honest with me and helping me to see what I already knew.

Off to re-educate myself on Plan B and write a Plan B letter.

[/quote]

Redswife, will you please let us coach you to do what Marriage Builders says to do in such a situation?

Because you need to draw a line and separate from your husband until and unless he agrees to actually follow Marriage Builders.

This is what Dr. Harley recommends in situations like yours. [/quote]

Definitely, I am all ears!

You have this, correct?
How to Plan B Correctly

Yes, I do. I'm going to speak with a friend about being my IM. Will send her the link to IM school. I'll ask SH his thoughts on whether I should ask my husband to leave or move out of our apartment as I am not the lease holder so I think I need to move out. Working on my PBL. I will post it here once I have it written.