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Originally Posted by living_well
You can tell her that something upsets you. A quick 'ouch that hurt' and then a change of subject is perfectly acceptable when she makes a nasty remark. But rather than making her antagonistic by asking her questions, you could either remain silent or you could talk about something that interests her.

What subjects other than your son does she enjoy talking about?

I generally try to remain silent now. In the past, I would get worked up and become argumentative and try to prove a point. Now I just let it go.

She generally like to gossip about people around us. She doesn't really like any type of intellectual discussions. We might talk a little bit here and there about local or national politics. But she will call me out on things, and say "that's not true," blah blah, even if she doesn't know the subject and I actually know the people. Again, now I just let it go and move onto something else.

But almost all of our conversations now surround our son, his baseball teams, Little League, the people in LL, etc.


Me-BH, 47
Spouse-WW, 47
Married for 18 years
DS, 11
D-Day #1 - November 1998 (7 months after wedding)
False Recovery, 16 years
D-Day #2 - November 2015
WW filed for D - February 2016
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I have noticed a lot of DJ's and a superior attitude coming from you when you refer to your wife.

I know you are upset about her treatment of you right now. But I suspect just from what you say here in a private forum that you are still lovebusting her, if not with your words then with the attitude that I perceive without even seeing your nonverbal queues. Have you read the book lovebusters? Are you familiar with DJ's? If not I would suggest you do. Any type of plan A you do will not work if you continue to lovebust.

For instance, you have refered several times (and been called out on it here I believe) to 'your' money and 'your' success. Even though she has not been the primary breadwinner, that does not mean everything you have earned and built over the marriage is 'yours.' This is very condescending to the role she has played in your marriage.

Saying things like she does not like any type of 'intellectual discussion' is very superior. When you describe her calling you out on things, saying you 'actually know the people' this also has an air of superiority. Your words suggest that you are more intellegent and know more than she does. I know I would avoid conversation with you if you had that attitude.

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Yes, unwritten, I accept your critique. I am very bitter right now because of what she is trying to do in the D. I have read Lovebusters but I don't think I was in the right frame of mind to accept and internalize it. I am trying to avoid the DJ's in actual conversation with WW but my nonverbal cues probably communicate differently to her. My DJ is a LB she has complained to me about in the past.

I need to read LB again and absorb it this time.


Me-BH, 47
Spouse-WW, 47
Married for 18 years
DS, 11
D-Day #1 - November 1998 (7 months after wedding)
False Recovery, 16 years
D-Day #2 - November 2015
WW filed for D - February 2016
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Originally Posted by LostOnLeftCoast
Yes, unwritten, I accept your critique. I am very bitter right now because of what she is trying to do in the D. I have read Lovebusters but I don't think I was in the right frame of mind to accept and internalize it. I am trying to avoid the DJ's in actual conversation with WW but my nonverbal cues probably communicate differently to her. My DJ is a LB she has complained to me about in the past.

I need to read LB again and absorb it this time.


Disrespectful judgements are very hard to spot in ourselves. Partly because putting your spouse down has the short term effect of making you feel superior. Of course it quickly poisons the relationship as you have found.

I am betting your WW finds plenty of things to talk about with her affair partner. Certainly something more substantial than gossip about neighbours which he would find even more excruciatingly boring than you understandably do.

Your challenge is to find a subject that engages her which would interest you too. Do not ask, start thinking creatively. For example, does she take care of the garden? If so what about asking if she would like some home grown vegetables this year? Talk over the dinner table, much better than the car. Car conversations too easily turn into monologues because you cannot look at one another.


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I took my son to his baseball practice yesterday, then texted WW to see if she wanted to join us. She was pretty enthusiastic and joined us at an old-fashioned steakhouse we haven't been in years. It is interesting that she always have family meals with us, even though she's set up her apartment two months ago! It was a nice change of pace, the place looked like it is frozen in time in the 70's. We both agreed that the quality of the meal turned out to be better than expected.
I made sure we talked about subjects that won't degenerate into DJ's. I updated her on the happenings at the baseball club from talking to the dads there. It's always a subject that interests her, who joined, who left, who made the A team, who's on the B team, etc. We talked about son's academics and congratulated him on the end of the quarter. He is pretty sure that he will have another perfect 4.0 quarter. She beamed with pride recounting what the teacher told her about S.

Overall it was a very pleasant evening and she acted like nothing really changed from before D-Day. These are the moments that I will miss most about my M, our time together as a family. I am terrified at the prospect of spending Friday nights alone by myself...


Me-BH, 47
Spouse-WW, 47
Married for 18 years
DS, 11
D-Day #1 - November 1998 (7 months after wedding)
False Recovery, 16 years
D-Day #2 - November 2015
WW filed for D - February 2016
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Originally Posted by LostOnLeftCoast
I We talked about son's academics and congratulated him on the end of the quarter. He is pretty sure that he will have another perfect 4.0 quarter. She beamed with pride recounting what the teacher told her about S.

You did a great job!! These positive interactions with your son conversations differentiate you from the OM. This is the advantage that you have over anyone else. NO ONE will ever love your son as much his parents, so she will never have this with anyone else. The more you do this, the more she will be likely to realize it. And you know what? She will ALSO hate Friday nights alone!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
You did a great job!! These positive interactions with your son conversations differentiate you from the OM. This is the advantage that you have over anyone else. NO ONE will ever love your son as much his parents, so she will never have this with anyone else. The more you do this, the more she will be likely to realize it. And you know what? She will ALSO hate Friday nights alone!

Thanks Melody. It's been really hard these last few weeks. Fighting the D is something else.
I hope she realizes how much the family means to our son. Someone else suggested this, so I've asked S to talk to WW about how much it means to him, for us to be together. He did but she told him it's about her and me, not him...
Is it wrong for me to have S talk to her about staying in the M and house? I know my therapist and most of the advice I've been given has been "don't involve the kids" but I feel like he's my best chance at R. I told him to tell her his own feelings, don't use my words. He was very scared to do this but he did it anyway. I told him even though it didn't work this time, he can continually tell WW about it...
There's a baseball tournament for S coming up in a few months. I asked WW if we can book a hotel room together for all three of us, "as a family," because it is two hours away and five nights total. She tentatively agreed...


Me-BH, 47
Spouse-WW, 47
Married for 18 years
DS, 11
D-Day #1 - November 1998 (7 months after wedding)
False Recovery, 16 years
D-Day #2 - November 2015
WW filed for D - February 2016
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Originally Posted by LostOnLeftCoast
[Is it wrong for me to have S talk to her about staying in the M and house? I know my therapist and most of the advice I've been given has been "don't involve the kids" but I feel like he's my best chance at R. I told him to tell her his own feelings, don't use my words. He was very scared to do this but he did it anyway. I told him even though it didn't work this time, he can continually tell WW about it...

It is good for him express his feelings. Why not? I don't understand the comment "don't involve him," though. That is very irrational. Of course he is "involved." Are they aware that breaking up his family "involves" him?

Your wife is fogged out and it can't hurt for her to hear how her selfish actions harm others, especially your son.

I would also look for an opportunity to tell your wife that you won't be "friends" with her if you end up divorced. She is anticipating that you will be "friends" and play happy family in the future. That helps assuage her guilt. You need to disabuse her of that notion.

Don't tell her this, but you will eventually want to go into a pitch dark Plan B after she moves out [several months] if it is too hard for you to be around her. All you need to tell her is that this relationship won't last for long if you are divorced.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
I would also look for an opportunity to tell your wife that you won't be "friends" with her if you end up divorced. She is anticipating that you will be "friends" and play happy family in the future. That helps assuage her guilt. You need to disabuse her of that notion.

Don't tell her this, but you will eventually want to go into a pitch dark Plan B after she moves out [several months] if it is too hard for you to be around her. All you need to tell her is that this relationship won't last for long if you are divorced.

This is the thing I was struggling with about the tournament. I think it would be a good opportunity to Plan A, but then it will be several months after she moved out already. I don't want her to be able to "cake-eat" and take advantage of the occasion. By then it may just be a couple months before the D is finalized... I don't want her to get the idea that we'll be "friends." It's what she told me on D-Day, that we'd separate but stay "friends." I have been telling her in no uncertain terms that will never happen.

Last edited by LostOnLeftCoast; 03/26/16 10:31 AM.

Me-BH, 47
Spouse-WW, 47
Married for 18 years
DS, 11
D-Day #1 - November 1998 (7 months after wedding)
False Recovery, 16 years
D-Day #2 - November 2015
WW filed for D - February 2016
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The tournament might be a good last outing together before you go into a dark Plan B. You don't have to decide now, but I think it is a good idea to plan these things with her.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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We spent the whole weekend together, all three of us. Hopefully I made some deposits into WW's Love Bank, although she still had a grouchy attitude the whole weekend she participated in all our activities, including seeing a movie with DS and have all our meals out together. I'm pretty sure I stayed away from any DJ. She ignored me sometimes in conversation but I just let it roll off my back.
I did not bring up anything to do with MR or D during the weekend, except the conversation about the tournament. Hopefully it is sinking in that we won't do any of these things together if she were to D. I was re-reading SAA about Plan A. It talked about getting a commitment that WW have NC with POSOM. As you may recall, that commitment fell apart spectacularly two months ago when I put the VAR in place. Since then, she has been very secretive with her burner phone, she put a six digit code on it and will not let me near it. She sleeps with it and goes to the bathroom with it! She is very suspicious about this and had her L send my attorney a warning about "hacking" (since I figured out their tactics a few weeks ago). My L held firm and told them to provide proof if they have it. It is good because now she is unsure what is secure. In any case, her contact with OM has gone DEEP underground if it is continuing.
Do I bring this up and try to get a POJA with her again on not contacting OM? Or leave it alone for now since we are already knee-deep in D proceedings?


Me-BH, 47
Spouse-WW, 47
Married for 18 years
DS, 11
D-Day #1 - November 1998 (7 months after wedding)
False Recovery, 16 years
D-Day #2 - November 2015
WW filed for D - February 2016
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Originally Posted by LostOnLeftCoast
In any case, her contact with OM has gone DEEP underground if it is continuing.
Do I bring this up and try to get a POJA with her again on not contacting OM? Or leave it alone for now since we are already knee-deep in D proceedings?

I agree that it has gone DEEP, however, you are not in recovery so POJA would not be relevant to your situation. And why bring up the affair? She will just deny it.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Good point. We're nowhere near Recovery. Last time it was a False Recovery as she acquiesced to the MB steps to be taken but secretly worked against them. She is still denying the A but the Exposure evidence I put out there proved otherwise.

My surveillance activities are limited now, and will be further limited once she moves out :-(

Last edited by LostOnLeftCoast; 03/28/16 10:33 AM.

Me-BH, 47
Spouse-WW, 47
Married for 18 years
DS, 11
D-Day #1 - November 1998 (7 months after wedding)
False Recovery, 16 years
D-Day #2 - November 2015
WW filed for D - February 2016
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While WW is still at home, she is very suspicious of my "spying" on her. Never mind that her betrayal led to the present circumstances in the first place. Everyone I've exposed the EA to told her, of course, I'm going to do that, "after all you betrayed him!"

Last week, WW went through my paper files and found some notes I made of her passwords around D-Day. (I learned this from my VAR). She thinks that I'm still spying on her currently and hacked into her new secret phone as well as her new gmail account. I've actually not been successful on these but I'm not going to tell her. She told her L my surveillance is the primary reason she needs to move out ASAP. She thought I was "better" (i.e. stopped trying to spy on her), but now after she found that note she's "afraid." Her L is concerned that I'm getting all of her "privileged" attorney-client emails and conversations "illegally." Of course I am not, my methods are completely legal in my own home, but I'm not going to tell them that.

What should I do about this situation in the meantime? Should I just pretend I don't know and ignore everything? I think she's afraid that I know she's still talking to the OM and I will let MIL and her cousin know.


Me-BH, 47
Spouse-WW, 47
Married for 18 years
DS, 11
D-Day #1 - November 1998 (7 months after wedding)
False Recovery, 16 years
D-Day #2 - November 2015
WW filed for D - February 2016
Joined: Apr 2001
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Originally Posted by LostOnLeftCoast
What should I do about this situation in the meantime? Should I just pretend I don't know and ignore everything? I think she's afraid that I know she's still talking to the OM and I will let MIL and her cousin know.

Thats really funny actually. I would not bring it up so she worries about it.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by LostOnLeftCoast
Last week, WW went through my paper files and found some notes I made of her passwords around D-Day. (I learned this from my VAR).

All your documents should be elsewhere. Your son's records/passport should be elsewhere. Do not say anything, just quietly move them out of her reach.


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Originally Posted by LostOnLeftCoast
While WW is still at home, she is very suspicious of my "spying" on her. Never mind that her betrayal led to the present circumstances in the first place. Everyone I've exposed the EA to told her, of course, I'm going to do that, "after all you betrayed him!"

Last week, WW went through my paper files and found some notes I made of her passwords around D-Day. (I learned this from my VAR). She thinks that I'm still spying on her currently and hacked into her new secret phone as well as her new gmail account. I've actually not been successful on these but I'm not going to tell her. She told her L my surveillance is the primary reason she needs to move out ASAP. She thought I was "better" (i.e. stopped trying to spy on her), but now after she found that note she's "afraid." Her L is concerned that I'm getting all of her "privileged" attorney-client emails and conversations "illegally." Of course I am not, my methods are completely legal in my own home, but I'm not going to tell them that.

What should I do about this situation in the meantime? Should I just pretend I don't know and ignore everything? I think she's afraid that I know she's still talking to the OM and I will let MIL and her cousin know.

If you did anything other than ignore it, she would know that indeed you are still keeping tabs on her, since you know she suspects that you are by hearing it on a VAR. So yes, just pretend you know nothing about her suspicions or you will give away even further (legal and necessary) intel opportunities.

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Originally Posted by unwritten
If you did anything other than ignore it, she would know that indeed you are still keeping tabs on her, since you know she suspects that you are by hearing it on a VAR. So yes, just pretend you know nothing about her suspicions or you will give away even further (legal and necessary) intel opportunities.

Yep, I've acted as if I didn't know anything about it. She suspects I'm tracking her somehow before, because unfortunately I installed the non-hidden version of SMS Tracker on her phone by mistake. (Big mistake). But she doesn't know anything about the VAR and I've been very careful about it.


Me-BH, 47
Spouse-WW, 47
Married for 18 years
DS, 11
D-Day #1 - November 1998 (7 months after wedding)
False Recovery, 16 years
D-Day #2 - November 2015
WW filed for D - February 2016
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Originally Posted by living_well
All your documents should be elsewhere. Your son's records/passport should be elsewhere. Do not say anything, just quietly move them out of her reach.

Yes, I've moved them away now. She found a little scrap of paper I had left by accident :-(


Me-BH, 47
Spouse-WW, 47
Married for 18 years
DS, 11
D-Day #1 - November 1998 (7 months after wedding)
False Recovery, 16 years
D-Day #2 - November 2015
WW filed for D - February 2016
Joined: Mar 2012
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It's always ironic how the adulterer wants complete privacy, but does not respect the same.

Saw this first hand.

Keep it to yourself, and act like James Bond. That VAR will get you everything you need.

I would recommend moving anything that you find of extreme value. This will not be what an attorney will recommend, but take it from personal experience. Like pictures, weapons, safe contents, mementos, antiques.

It is amazing how things disappear, and even when ordered to produce by a court, have been lost. (personally can attest to this).


Last edited by NebDane; 03/28/16 01:55 PM.
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