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Hello Everyone,
I have read this website from nearly top to bottom and and have a question about exposure.

Some background:

I'll "try" not to drag on with a long story, touch on the main points, and leave my question for the next post.

I am 45 and my wife is 42.
We have 3 children age 13 to 21.

She moved to her mothers home, around 10 months ago, with very little to no explanation, stating she did not know if she wanted to return.
For a while before this happened, and for some time after, she would make comments about "Not being happy".
I would plead with her on nearly a daily basis to open up on the problems she was having and got very little in return.
Basically repeated statements of "I am not happy" or would tell me of problems that in retrospect were minor
(really no larger problems that what [I believe] any other married couple have in their lives as well)

She would and still does constantly bounce back and forth from "We can work it out"... to... "I am not coming back".
With a lot of "I don't know what I want" statements in between.

I have gotten her to return home several times, and when she does, she becomes very close to the person and personality that I have always loved and recognized, and is (seems?) more open to talking and working things out.
But, for nearly this entire time, these returns to home would only last a day or two and she would come up with reasons as to why she had to return to her mothers.
(need change of clothes, forgot work supplies, mom needs help with chores... ect) and that she would return later.

But, later always becomes days to weeks on end and when I was/ am able to convince her to return, she is this other person again and I/ we have to start all over from square one. Up and down constantly.

We are both part of a large charity organization and for a couple years (2013-2014) held titles in that organization.
She was elected to the top position in this organization and able to appoint an assistant (considered the second position down), a man recommended to her by another person.

Although her and this OM live on opposite sides of the globe, a "friendship" instantly developed between them.
(Reality is, an affair instantly developed between them)

Just before, and several times after taking these positions, she started going on trips that were supposedly funded by promotional people that work with our organization. The explanation was always that because they held the top two positions, they were the two chosen to travel to various destinations for promotional work.

Over the last couple years, I first had people I did not even know within our organization contact me and say it appears they are more than friends. Later it became people we knew closer that would say the same. I would seriously question her on what if anything is going on and each time it was met with outrage and statements that I was crazy for even asking.

"These others did not know what they were talking about."... "He is my friend (later it became "best friend")... "He lives half way around the world! How can you think that is even possible!"

I believed it each time, trusted her completely and was never told of any serious problems between us, eventhough asking many times.

Later, after we left these positions, it was already "well established" that they were only good/ best friends... so (as I was told) there "should be no problem" the first (and subsequent times) I was informed that he would be flying in to visit her.

And because her mother has a million+ dollar home, (and of course we do not) there "should be no problem" that they stay there in a more comfortable environment for visitors.
In total, these plane trips by her out of state and visits by him amounted to two or three times per year, for the past three years.

I believed her because (1) The fact is... he does live on the other side of the planet. (2) He is also married with two small children. (3) The various trips were in the public eye. (4) They were staying under her mother's roof where an affair would not be possible.

I was wrong on everything.

- The get-away trips and visits overcame the distance issue.
- The fact 1000's of people know who they both are was actually used to hide the affair.
- While visiting her at her mothers, they would rent hotel rooms in neighboring towns, which overcame that issue.
- Him not caring about his wife overcame the married with children issue.

One month ago was the tipping point.
She came to me with last minute news that her mother and her brother were to travel to the other side of the country, to visit church friends that had moved there.
That her brother found out only days in advance that he could no longer go and that her mom asked her to instead take the other ticket and help her with the the trip activities and that is why I was only finding out days in advance.

This was so out of the ordinary that I could no longer bring myself to believe anything that was said over the last few years.
I had never known any of her family to ever travel, in the 25 years that I have been with her.

So, one night, about a month ago, I decided to investigate.
I instantly discovered that she had changed her passwords on all her accounts (Email, Facebook, Skype... ect).
But at some point in time she had logged in and out, here at home, without actually removing/ deleting the the log-out page.
Her password still in the open. It was just a matter of clicking "Enter" to start seeing the evidence, and the same password was used for all her accounts.

I first learned that the latest trip was in fact a week long vacation to Disneyland for the two of them.

Within only a couple hours, I found airline ticket stubs from several of the trips, rental car receipts, hotel reservations
* Always 1 room with 2 guests. I had always been told there were two rooms rented, Hidden Paypal account, emails, second bank account, Skype conversations.

I also found the entire Facebook chat between the two of them over the last three years.

(which often delved into their talking about their enjoyment of intercourse with each other).
Sometimes bordering on a juvenile online sex chat.

Just a large amount of evidence, including smoking gun, self taken photographs of themselves in bed together.

I saved, labeled and cataloged everything.

Like I mentioned I have read nearly this entire site, and in all of this time had only one angry outburst.
This happened the moment of finding out. It was coincidentally one of the times that she was at home.
I woke her up from sleep late at night, yelled, called names, said I knew what has going on and told her to leave.

Once she knew that I knew, it was somewhat of a splash of reality on her and she has actually spent more time at home in the past few weeks than in the last several months. Although it is still only a day or two at a time, before the excuses arrive to leave again, and the up and down cycle continues.

At the same time she is more easily prone to anger.
What were once normal conversations she somehow finds a trigger word to cause an angry blow up.
I have never raised my voice nor have I become angry even one time since that first night of finding out.

We do talk (briefly) every day, sometimes in person, but mostly by phone and I have gone to her moms recently to begin the explanation that I have a solid plan to heal us both.

She is more receptive in person, but every night she is not at home, she continues the online portion of the affair.
Like she has nearly every night for three years.

She has since changed her Facebook and Skype passwords yet again and I am no longer able to access anything.
She knows I have read the entire conversations they have had up to this point, and that I am aware of what has been and is still happening.

The conversations between ourselves still bounce from her apparently understanding that it is wrong and needs to end,
Where hugging, kissing, and "I love you's" are shared between us... to the opposite far side side of... "If I don't like it than tough for me"... "It is none of my business"... "She is not coming back", are things I am also often told.
Up and down constantly.
Sometimes even in the same day.

The most recent development is that one of the last emails I was able to see between them, talked about his plans to come again and visit her this summer.

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Originally Posted by PTSD
Hello Everyone,
I have read this website from nearly top to bottom and and have a question about exposure.

Some background:

I'll "try" not to drag on with a long story, touch on the main points, and leave my question for the next post.

I am 45 and my wife is 42.
We have 3 children age 13 to 21.

She moved to her mothers home, around 10 months ago, with very little to no explanation, stating she did not know if she wanted to return.
For a while before this happened, and for some time after, she would make comments about "Not being happy".
I would plead with her on nearly a daily basis to open up on the problems she was having and got very little in return.
Basically repeated statements of "I am not happy" or would tell me of problems that in retrospect were minor
(really no larger problems that what [I believe] any other married couple have in their lives as well)

She would and still does constantly bounce back and forth from "We can work it out"... to... "I am not coming back".
With a lot of "I don't know what I want" statements in between.

I have gotten her to return home several times, and when she does, she becomes very close to the person and personality that I have always loved and recognized, and is (seems?) more open to talking and working things out.
But, for nearly this entire time, these returns to home would only last a day or two and she would come up with reasons as to why she had to return to her mothers.
(need change of clothes, forgot work supplies, mom needs help with chores... ect) and that she would return later.

But, later always becomes days to weeks on end and when I was/ am able to convince her to return, she is this other person again and I/ we have to start all over from square one. Up and down constantly.

We are both part of a large charity organization and for a couple years (2013-2014) held titles in that organization.
She was elected to the top position in this organization and able to appoint an assistant (considered the second position down), a man recommended to her by another person.

Although her and this OM live on opposite sides of the globe, a "friendship" instantly developed between them.
(Reality is, an affair instantly developed between them)

Just before, and several times after taking these positions, she started going on trips that were supposedly funded by promotional people that work with our organization. The explanation was always that because they held the top two positions, they were the two chosen to travel to various destinations for promotional work.

Over the last couple years, I first had people I did not even know within our organization contact me and say it appears they are more than friends. Later it became people we knew closer that would say the same. I would seriously question her on what if anything is going on and each time it was met with outrage and statements that I was crazy for even asking.

"These others did not know what they were talking about."... "He is my friend (later it became "best friend")... "He lives half way around the world! How can you think that is even possible!"

I believed it each time, trusted her completely and was never told of any serious problems between us, eventhough asking many times.

Later, after we left these positions, it was already "well established" that they were only good/ best friends... so (as I was told) there "should be no problem" the first (and subsequent times) I was informed that he would be flying in to visit her.

And because her mother has a million+ dollar home, (and of course we do not) there "should be no problem" that they stay there in a more comfortable environment for visitors.
In total, these plane trips by her out of state and visits by him amounted to two or three times per year, for the past three years.

I believed her because (1) The fact is... he does live on the other side of the planet. (2) He is also married with two small children. (3) The various trips were in the public eye. (4) They were staying under her mother's roof where an affair would not be possible.

I was wrong on everything.

- The get-away trips and visits overcame the distance issue.
- The fact 1000's of people know who they both are was actually used to hide the affair.
- While visiting her at her mothers, they would rent hotel rooms in neighboring towns, which overcame that issue.
- Him not caring about his wife overcame the married with children issue.

One month ago was the tipping point.
She came to me with last minute news that her mother and her brother were to travel to the other side of the country, to visit church friends that had moved there.
That her brother found out only days in advance that he could no longer go and that her mom asked her to instead take the other ticket and help her with the the trip activities and that is why I was only finding out days in advance.

This was so out of the ordinary that I could no longer bring myself to believe anything that was said over the last few years.
I had never known any of her family to ever travel, in the 25 years that I have been with her.

So, one night, about a month ago, I decided to investigate.
I instantly discovered that she had changed her passwords on all her accounts (Email, Facebook, Skype... ect).
But at some point in time she had logged in and out, here at home, without actually removing/ deleting the the log-out page.
Her password still in the open. It was just a matter of clicking "Enter" to start seeing the evidence, and the same password was used for all her accounts.

I first learned that the latest trip was in fact a week long vacation to Disneyland for the two of them.

Within only a couple hours, I found airline ticket stubs from several of the trips, rental car receipts, hotel reservations
* Always 1 room with 2 guests. I had always been told there were two rooms rented, Hidden Paypal account, emails, second bank account, Skype conversations.

I also found the entire Facebook chat between the two of them over the last three years.

(which often delved into their talking about their enjoyment of intercourse with each other).
Sometimes bordering on a juvenile online sex chat.

Just a large amount of evidence, including smoking gun, self taken photographs of themselves in bed together.

I saved, labeled and cataloged everything.

Like I mentioned I have read nearly this entire site, and in all of this time had only one angry outburst.
This happened the moment of finding out. It was coincidentally one of the times that she was at home.
I woke her up from sleep late at night, yelled, called names, said I knew what has going on and told her to leave.

Once she knew that I knew, it was somewhat of a splash of reality on her and she has actually spent more time at home in the past few weeks than in the last several months. Although it is still only a day or two at a time, before the excuses arrive to leave again, and the up and down cycle continues.

At the same time she is more easily prone to anger.
What were once normal conversations she somehow finds a trigger word to cause an angry blow up.
I have never raised my voice nor have I become angry even one time since that first night of finding out.

We do talk (briefly) every day, sometimes in person, but mostly by phone and I have gone to her moms recently to begin the explanation that I have a solid plan to heal us both.

She is more receptive in person, but every night she is not at home, she continues the online portion of the affair.
Like she has nearly every night for three years.

She has since changed her Facebook and Skype passwords yet again and I am no longer able to access anything.
She knows I have read the entire conversations they have had up to this point, and that I am aware of what has been and is still happening.

The conversations between ourselves still bounce from her apparently understanding that it is wrong and needs to end,
Where hugging, kissing, and "I love you's" are shared between us... to the opposite far side side of... "If I don't like it than tough for me"... "It is none of my business"... "She is not coming back", are things I am also often told.
Up and down constantly.
Sometimes even in the same day.

The most recent development is that one of the last emails I was able to see between them, talked about his plans to come again and visit her this summer.
Welcome to MB.

What is your question about exposure? I can't see whether you asked it in this post.


BW
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2 kids.
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I do want to save this marriage.
She is the love of my life.
Together for 25 years, married for 23.
The mother of our children.


My current questions are these...

I am ready to expose this.

As of right now those who know are: Her, me, our children, and my parents.

I have cataloged all of the evidence and she has admitted to what is happening.

I have only shared enough of what I know to her to have her realize that I know just about everything
that is and has happened.

I found the OM's wife on Facebook, his sister and an unidentified older relative.

I saw the suggestion here to upload all the evidence and share the link with those individuals I can find.

The trouble is, do I limit it to that or go bigger?

We don't really have "close friends with influence", but due to our charity work, we do have 100 "close acquaintances"
that we see in person semi-regularly. A few of these could be considered "semi-friends".

Do I tell all of them?
Make a statement on our local private FB page ? (100 people)
Make a statement on our local forum? (200 people)
Make a statement on the local forum where this OM resides? (100 people on his side of the world)
Do I make a statement on the worldwide forum? (nearly 10,000 people)

* Both of them are well known by every individual whom might see it... no matter what choice is made

Do I share the evidence with all I speak to?
If I do post, do I include the link to the evidence within these posts?

Do I include the explicit photos?
(There is no outright nudity, but they are clearly naked in bed and making out after just having sex)

Beside those whom I've already told, my first targets are her mother and the OM's wife.

My wife has not told the OM that I know.
I am also unsure who will actually be on the other end of the line when I try to contact the OM's spouse on FB.

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Hi PTSD, welcome to MArriage Builders. A bit of unsolicited advice, please focus on brevity. Your posts are so long that your story is very hard to follow. I certainly don't have time to read your initial post. I will address these questions and preface this by telling you that you need to go read my exposure 101 thread linked in my signature.

Originally Posted by PTSD
We don't really have "close friends with influence", but due to our charity work, we do have 100 "close acquaintances"
that we see in person semi-regularly. A few of these could be considered "semi-friends".

Do I tell all of them?

No, expose to close friends and relatives.

Quote
Make a statement on our local private FB page ? (100 people)

No

Quote
Make a statement on our local forum? (200 people)

No

Quote
Make a statement on the local forum where this OM resides? (100 people on his side of the world)
Do I make a statement on the worldwide forum? (nearly 10,000 people)

No

Quote
Do I share the evidence with all I speak to?
If I do post, do I include the link to the evidence within these posts?

Go read the epxosure 101 thread.

Quote
Do I include the explicit photos?
(There is no outright nudity, but they are clearly naked in bed and making out after just having sex)

Just include enough evidence to convince the exposure target.

Quote
Beside those whom I've already told, my first targets are her mother and the OM's wife.

I would make up a list of all your targets and get it done in 24 hours. Expose to the OM's facebook contacts.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Very sorry for the long initial post. I wanted to keep it direct, but while writing I thought perhaps some background info might help to determine the answers to the questions.

I would also like to thank you, SugarCane and other members like yourselves that endure a seemingly endless line of sad stories and still keep coming back to offer advice.


I have read the exposure 101 thread... many times.
The trouble is that will be a very small list.

Regarding the OM's facebook contacts, I can only see "Mutual Friends". These only include a handful of the same, local to me, close acquaintances that I mentioned up above.
He lives on the other side of the world so I have no idea whom his other contacts are, without sending him a friend request which will surely be denied.

It means the entire list consists of:

Our children
Our Parents
The OM's spouse
The OM's sister
"Maybe" one or two others who could be considered standard friends.

I'm not sure if that is too small to make a large enough impact.

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Originally Posted by PTSD
It means the entire list consists of:

Our children
Our Parents
The OM's spouse
The OM's sister
"Maybe" one or two others who could be considered standard friends.

I'm not sure if that is too small to make a large enough impact.
The large impact is not made by reaching a large number of people. The large impact is made by reaching the right people. The most significant person on that list is his wife. She is the one with the power to stop the affair dead in its tracks. The typical married man who has an affair and does not quickly move out of his home is a cake-eater. He is offered a bit of free nooky - or Internet sex or whatever - and he takes it. He has no intention of leaving his wife and kids. The minute his wife finds out and issues an ultimatum, he will tell your wife that the affair is over.

He might then do as my husband did with his whore, and stay in contact, burying the affair even deeper. Your nightmare scenario after exposure would be for the contact to continue, and for you to discover this two years later - as I did. That is why you need to implement Extraordinary Precautions right away - your wife needs to be willing to do this with you. If she behaves like a belligerent child, it's a sign that she has not stopped contact.

But if you are in the lucky position of being able to expose to his wife, even though they live in another country (as in my case), you need to thank the Lord and get on with it. You've got one of the easiest situations to deal with, when your wife is involved with a married man on the other side of the world.

The hope is that the other contacts will give you both much-needed support to get through this nightmare and rebuild your marriage. They, however, have limited power to stop the affair (although, as I posted yesterday, we do have cases where the unfaithful spouse's parent ripped them a new one and brought reality into their fantasy affair). The person, apart for you, who can issue an ultimatum to one or other affair partner is his wife.

Send those messages TODAY. No more delay while you ask further questions, or imagine reasons why it won't work.


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If your wife and the OM are still involved in the leadership of this charitable organization, the organization's board also needs to be be informed. Your wife and OM have misused contributions to the organization.

Actually, I just re-read your first post and some of these people have known for quite some time and were telling you about the affair.

AM

Last edited by armymama; 03/20/16 03:00 PM.

BW - 70
WH - 65
M - 35 years
D-day - 17 Apr 08
H broke contact 11/1/09
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It is done.
Started writing the letters just after the above post.

Those now fully aware:
My parents
Her Parent
Our Children
OM's spouse
OM's sister
And, Three of what can be considered my wife's closest friends.

The OM's spouse was eager for me to send all the evidence I had and had suspected he had been having an affair for a couple years.
She thanked me for contacting her and was relieved that she was not in fact insane (her words).

She gave him a deadline to remain married.

Honestly, it felt pretty good to know they are both getting a shake up of reality. If not the same day, then pretty close to it. Just after clicking "send" on the last letter, I actually shook both fists in the air and yelled "F- yeah!"


I have developed a few more questions about this stage...

I am pretty level headed and good at playing situations by ear, but would like to know what experienced members might recommend.

At this imidiate point, do I go silent and wait for her to contact me, after learning that others know... or do I keep trying to talk to her about a plan for recovery?

When my wife finds out other people do now know, she will ask the names of all I have told. Do I list them or keep it vauge?

I've read another recent thread here of a person making the announcement on the OM's FB page, which resulted in the OM deactivating their page.

In that instance it appeared to make progress.
Is this action truly advisable?
Is it a decent alternative when not having the OM's contact/ friends list?

Thanks to all.



Last edited by PTSD; 03/21/16 08:06 AM.
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Good job, PTSD! If you can expose on the OM's fb page, I would do that. I would also recommend that you expose to the charitable organizations board like armymama suggested.

As far as speaking to your wife, she will probably find out today that you exposed her and call you up screaming. You can tell her that you exposed to many, many people and ask her to end her affair.

What did her mother say? Did you speak to her directly? And doesn't your wife live with her?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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I did speak to her mother in person. I did so while my wife was at work (She works on weekends).

Her mother had no idea, and was also told many false stories of what was happening and why her daughter has moved in there. Her mother is deeply religious, referenced a passage in the bible about staying with your husband, and said she would lay into her heavy. That the OM would not be allowed to be there again, if he in fact shows.

I do know however that it likely hasn't happened yet, as my wife sent a calm text to me about another subject, well after I spoke with her mother.

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Oh, just thought of this...

If I expose on the OM's fb page, my wife will be tipped off almost imidiatly. This will happen before OM tells her his spouse knows, before her mother talks to her, and before she learns her friends know.

Should I wait for some of these other avenues catch up, before doing so?

edit:
Actually, I would no be suprised if he did not tell my wife his spouse knows. She did not tell him that I know.

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Originally Posted by PTSD
If I expose on the OM's fb page, my wife will be tipped off almost imidiatly. This will happen before OM tells her his spouse knows, before her mother talks to her, and before she learns her friends know.

Sounds great! I would go ahead and do this.



Quote
edit:
Actually, I would no be suprised if he did not tell my wife his spouse knows. She did not tell him that I know.

I would also ask the wife to call your wife. Give her your wife's cell # and encourage her to call.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Hi, PTSD.

I've read your story, and will be praying for you!

I would also inform OM's W of this website. She is going to need help dealing with this and her M, too.


Once I was BW. Now happily RE-married!
I was there. It's painful. It's hard.
But it's totally doable and worth it.
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Usually you send FB friends a PM with the Exposure letter.
Expose on the page is too easy to flag and remove or bury. Or just shut down the page.

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Originally Posted by apples123
Usually you send FB friends a PM with the Exposure letter.
Expose on the page is too easy to flag and remove or bury. Or just shut down the page.

Did you read this?
Quote
Regarding the OM's facebook contacts, I can only see "Mutual Friends". These only include a handful of the same, local to me, close acquaintances that I mentioned up above.

He exposed to those mutual friends but he can't see any others.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Thank you OlderWiser. I have also sent out prayers to those here whom are struggling.

The exposure has already had an impact. Of course not a "Hey, everything is great again!" explosion. But by our brief conversation today... it was a bit more encouraging.

* I would be happy to explain what happened, if anyone is interested.

But I have have a more time sensitive question to ask...

* I did not expose to ALL of the "mutual friends", but did to the three I knew we were closest to (Two of the three have already stepped up to show they are true friends).


My question is...
By some reverse engineering, I found a few more of the OM's friends/contacts, which are specific to him alone. A couple living in the same town.
I would like to also send them a letter.

I did not provide any physical evidence to those I've already contacted (with the exception of his wife), because I fully knew they would believe me without needing to do so.

These others I do not know if they would or not. I have never spoken to any of them.

I read in the "Exposure 101" thread of the method of uploading a bit of proof and sending a link (So as not to force evidence upon them, but it is kind of irresistible not to click a link after such a statement is sent).

I believe that some clips from the chat sessions and a few hotel receipts (all of which are dated), when combined will show an example of the affair from each of the years, would be enough to show I am telling the truth.

But I keep struggling with these "caught in the act" photos.
Do I include one of those for impact? (perhaps cropped down to be less explicit, yet still clear enough to show what is happening in the image?) Or, just go with the written material?

Thanks again everyone.

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Originally Posted by PTSD
Thank you OlderWiser. I have also sent out prayers to those here whom are struggling.

The exposure has already had an impact. Of course not a "Hey, everything is great again!" explosion. But by our brief conversation today... it was a bit more encouraging.

* I would be happy to explain what happened, if anyone is interested.

But I have have a more time sensitive question to ask...

* I did not expose to ALL of the "mutual friends", but did to the three I knew we were closest to (Two of the three have already stepped up to show they are true friends).


My question is...
By some reverse engineering, I found a few more of the OM's friends/contacts, which are specific to him alone. A couple living in the same town.
I would like to also send them a letter.

I did not provide any physical evidence to those I've already contacted (with the exception of his wife), because I fully knew they would believe me without needing to do so.

These others I do not know if they would or not. I have never spoken to any of them.

I read in the "Exposure 101" thread of the method of uploading a bit of proof and sending a link (So as not to force evidence upon them, but it is kind of irresistible not to click a link after such a statement is sent).

I believe that some clips from the chat sessions and a few hotel receipts (all of which are dated), when combined will show an example of the affair from each of the years, would be enough to show I am telling the truth.

But I keep struggling with these "caught in the act" photos.
Do I include one of those for impact? (perhaps cropped down to be less explicit, yet still clear enough to show what is happening in the image?) Or, just go with the written material?

Thanks again everyone.
You should not post pictures of your wife having sex for anyone else to see (except his wife). No one should see your wife naked. Why would they need to actually see this, rather than read about it? How is that different from pornography? Ask your self whether that is a step that would help with the rebuilding of your marriage. I cannot see how it would.

Also, you don't know what could happen to those pictures once they are on the Internet. Do you want pictures of your wife having sex to be in circulation for years to come?

It might also be an offence to post sexually explicit pictures of your wife in these circumstances. In the UK where I live, a law has recently been passed against "revenge porn", where people take revenge on another person after they have been dumped by them, by posting explicit pictures on the Internet. I know you are not doing this for revenge, but would a jury be interested in the distinction, if your wife took you to court?

I have only known of a few occasions on this board when it was necessary to provide evidence of the affair to people other than the other spouse. The other spouse has a right to a copy of every scrap of material that you have. If their spouse was involved with someone else, they have a right to that evidence.

The rest of the world...I'm not so sure. They can choose not to believe or support you. If you've told them that you have copies of explicit conversations, and photographs of your wife and this man in bed, and they choose not to believe you, then they are not the friends that you need.

You should give the other spouse everything.

You can copy the written exchanges to the board of the charity if they ask for evidence. Perhaps surprisingly, I have not seen many employers ask for the evidence, and they need to be very careful of employment law when they discipline the affair partners. If they don't need evidence, the charity might not either. they could deal with it by interviewing the two people. Would the affair partners lie, knowing that you have clear evidence?

Everyone else can get a description from you, if they are not convinced. They do not get a front row seat to the porn show.


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The images are not "pornographic" Per Se, There are no privates shown, but they are obvious.

But, thank you SugarCane, those are the very issues I have been struggling with. No revenge intended. Impact yes. Revenge or unnecessary actions, not at all.

They will not see the light of day, beyond the OM's spouse.
In fact, I likely will not include evidence to this new set of contacts at all.

Just send the same type of letter I've sent to the others already.

Thank You.

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Originally Posted by PTSD
Thank you OlderWiser. I have also sent out prayers to those here whom are struggling.

The exposure has already had an impact. Of course not a "Hey, everything is great again!" explosion. But by our brief conversation today... it was a bit more encouraging.

* I would be happy to explain what happened, if anyone is interested.

But I have have a more time sensitive question to ask...

* I did not expose to ALL of the "mutual friends", but did to the three I knew we were closest to (Two of the three have already stepped up to show they are true friends).

My question is...
By some reverse engineering, I found a few more of the OM's friends/contacts, which are specific to him alone. A couple living in the same town.
I would like to also send them a letter.

I did not provide any physical evidence to those I've already contacted (with the exception of his wife), because I fully knew they would believe me without needing to do so.

These others I do not know if they would or not. I have never spoken to any of them.

I read in the "Exposure 101" thread of the method of uploading a bit of proof and sending a link (So as not to force evidence upon them, but it is kind of irresistible not to click a link after such a statement is sent).

I believe that some clips from the chat sessions and a few hotel receipts (all of which are dated), when combined will show an example of the affair from each of the years, would be enough to show I am telling the truth.

But I keep struggling with these "caught in the act" photos.
Do I include one of those for impact? (perhaps cropped down to be less explicit, yet still clear enough to show what is happening in the image?) Or, just go with the written material?

Thanks again everyone.

You never do a partial exposure.

You must include those people that you left off the first round of exposure. Half mule exposure is never effective.

Must get work charity exposure done.

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Latest development:

I am very scared and at a loss of what my immediate next step should be.

Her first realization that people knew, was pretty calm and not much of a change in circumstances... a hair better in fact.

But tonight was the actual "response call".
(Not telephone, but through texts)

I knew it would be bad, but not quite this bad.

* I am new here, so I am not sure if listing conversions is a standard procedure, or if I only need generalizations, but here it is as a condensed version...

Me: Perhaps we can talk later. Just regular talk.

Her: You have done enough talking.
People know because you went out of your way to tell them.
What other scumbag tricks do you have up your sleeve.

M: Not scumbag. It is a path to heal.
H: Healing comes from badmouthing us to anyone who will listen?
M: Not vindictive in any way, I promise you.
H: Looks like I am not the only liar, huh
M: It is a healthy plan.
H: You are a bad person. I don't want to be with you.
M: I did not lie to anyone about anything. I said "A healthy plan to healing"
H: You treat me like crap and think I am interested in anything you have to say?
[censored] off. I am done with you.

M: You are angry. I understand. I have a clear path to help the both of us.
H: Leave me alone forever.
M: I am sorry you are upset.
H: Like hell.
M: I am really and I do have a real and healthy loving plan for both of us.
H: You don't know what those words mean.
M: I am very honest about this. I spoke a bit about this plan to you before.
But, there is much more. All great.
And, I am sorry you are upset.

- end


The "bad mouthing" were the cut/ paste letters from the "Exposure 101" thread, and personalized to the individuals in which they were sent.

- No attacks
- No slander
- No name calling
- Thoughtfully written and asking for help.

The "plan" I reference is from here:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3550_summary.html

any advice on what is my immediate next step?
She will be here tomorrow dropping off our eldest child for a several day stay.
(Although I doubt she will even get out of the car)

Do I try to explain that exposing is actually a benefit to all involved?
Her, Me, the other BS, and even the OM. That it will prove there are friends and family on both sides willing to provide support?

Do I go silent and wait for the next contact (if any)?

Do I express again that I am not being vindictive?

I am also sure our children will be told I am a mean person who took revenge.
Do I let them in on this plan/ concept and explain the benefits of exposing?

At a loss of what to do next.

Thank you again to anyone/ everyone.

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I know all of the recommendations are Not to be scared, but it's hard not to when you are unsure of the next step and a wrong one could spell doom.

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Originally Posted by PTSD
I am also sure our children will be told I am a mean person who took revenge.
Do I let them in on this plan/ concept and explain the benefits of exposing?

PTSD, you did expose to your children, right? If not, I would get that done. They should know all about the affair too.

I would not try to reason with your spouse anymore. She is in the fog and has no reason. If she brings it up again, just tell her you are sorry she is upset but you feel it was the right thing to do.

And yes, we understand we it is scary! You did a great job of taking action despite that fear. Hang in there, you are doing great!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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The children do know.
In fact they were the first to know.

As far as the charity organization, all positions are voluntary.
It is a non-profit, and even the top elected positions receive no pay.

I am 100% sure there were no mis-appropriation of funds.
Those are locked down tight by a financial officer, and they never had access to them.
I am also sure the current administration, if informed, will do nothing and show no support, but will possibly use the information for their personal gain. The members of the current administration, before taking over, were hostile toward the last administration (her administration).

Member, TheRoad, mentioned above about continuing exposure to the remaining "mutual friends". This was discussed earlier in the thread. That the remaining mutual friends are individuals very local to me, (the OM is located on the other side of the planet) and are only mutual because of the organization in which we belong. None are "close friends with influence" but rather close-acquaintances.

Through that previous page discussion, I am under the impression those would be non-targets.

So, if I understand correctly, the recommendation is that I now go quiet, hold tight, wait for her to contact me, explain again that I am sorry she is upset, and move right back into discussing her willingness to hear out "The Plan".

Is that correct?


So far, the information on the main website, and the advice given here on the forum, have been right on.

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I think you need to be very clear about what you are doing and why you are doing it. Your marriage will not survive if she continues her affair. It may not survive even if she stops the affair. If you want your marriage to have a chance, the affair has to stop, so you will do whatever you can to stop it and require ongoing verification of that. Really, the only thing you need to be telling your wife in regards to that is that you will do whatever you can to end the affair and provide a path to recover your marriage. Quit worrying about whether or not she likes that, it really doesn't matter! You did pretty good discussing it with your WW. Keep firm in your conviction that you want to work on recovering the marriage, and study and implement Plan A whenever you are afforded the opportunity.

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Thank you and I do understand all you have said.
My concern now is if I should call her immediately, wait a while, or hold until she talks to me next.


* In response to encouraging the OM's spouse to contact my spouse, I do know the OM's wife sent my wife a message explaining that he has been lying to both of them about many things and that she too wants to remain married.

I have actually been talking with the OM's wife, sharing information back and forth, and we have been updating each other on the progress.

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I guess there is a time limit to edit posts?

My above question about next contact can be forgotten.
She came home for a minute today, and I repeated the statements Tyk mentioned.

- No "revenge" or badmouthing is taking place.
- Everything I do or say is to end the affair.
- There is a path to recovery.

She was very calm and said "Okay".

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Originally Posted by PTSD
The children do know.
In fact they were the first to know.

As far as the charity organization, all positions are voluntary.
It is a non-profit, and even the top elected positions receive no pay.

I am 100% sure there were no mis-appropriation of funds.
Those are locked down tight by a financial officer, and they never had access to them.
I am also sure the current administration, if informed, will do nothing and show no support, but will possibly use the information for their personal gain. The members of the current administration, before taking over, were hostile toward the last administration (her administration).

So that is where you should expose next. They can boot the affairees out of the organization. I don't know of many charitable organizations, other than Swingers anonymous, that want this sort of behavior going on in their ranks.

Quote
That the remaining mutual friends are individuals very local to me, (the OM is located on the other side of the planet) and are only mutual because of the organization in which we belong. None are "close friends with influence" but rather close-acquaintances.

OK, but the "close friends" does not apply to the OM for obvious reasons. Did you expose to all his known close friends and family?

Quote
So, if I understand correctly, the recommendation is that I now go quiet, hold tight, wait for her to contact me, explain again that I am sorry she is upset, and move right back into discussing her willingness to hear out "The Plan".

I would finish your exposures and then hold tight.



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by PTSD
* In response to encouraging the OM's spouse to contact my spouse, I do know the OM's wife sent my wife a message explaining that he has been lying to both of them about many things and that she too wants to remain married.

I have actually been talking with the OM's wife, sharing information back and forth, and we have been updating each other on the progress.

Very good!! hurray


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Thank you MelodyLane.

I have been taking some time to read the situations of others so as not to feel I am taking advantage of the members here and simply focusing on myself.

By all accounts you are a major asset to this forum.

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Something I am not sure on.

Exposing to the OM's remaining mutual friends is in fact exposing to regular acquaintances of ours here at home.
It amounts to "Exposure to WS contacts", him not even being a factor in that situation.

It would in fact be exposing to acquaintance/ friends of ours, that we regularly see in person... not his friends or acquaintances.
Still go forward?

If I do this, the people on that list have the same status as all of my and my wife's other local friends and acquaintances. (whom we also see in person)
Do I add them to the list? I will bring the total to near 100 local people.


The charity:
Exposing to the lead staff members of the current charity organization means I am almost certain that this will lead, through gossip channels, to 100's of additional people knowing.

Still go forward?

I am willing to talk to anyone and everyone, just would like to go about it the best way.

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Originally Posted by PTSD
Something I am not sure on.

Exposing to the OM's remaining mutual friends is in fact exposing to regular acquaintances of ours here at home.
It amounts to "Exposure to WS contacts", him not even being a factor in that situation.

It would in fact be exposing to acquaintance/ friends of ours, that we regularly see in person... not his friends or acquaintances.
Still go forward?

Yes, and this will be a good thing, because you don't want those mutual acquaintances to invite you both to the same event. And those ppl might not want to socialize with such a person.

Quote
The charity:
Exposing to the lead staff members of the current charity organization means I am almost certain that this will lead, through gossip channels, to 100's of additional people knowing.

Still go forward?

Yes, let the staff members know so they can fire OM and your W. Keep in mind, the more people who know, the more people to hold them accountable.

Quote
I am willing to talk to anyone and everyone, just would like to go about it the best way.

These are great questions. You are doing great!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Am I remembering correctly?

Didn't this charitable organization fund a "Business Trip" for the two of them to attend?

That most certainly IS allocating funds that was used to further their affair.

I would cause such an uproar and DEMAND that at they both be released from their positions and if it DOESN'T Happen, t ::) en I would threaten and follow through with notifying the press and key or influential donors to put a stop on the "Charity" subsidizing affairs.

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The organization never did fund a trip.

The claim for each trip was that notable, outside and unrelated promotional people were funding the trips, in an effort to provide "featured guests" for whatever event they were presenting.

She claimed that because they held the top two positions, they were always the two chosen to attend whatever event these promotional people were presenting.

I have found out from the OM's spouse that he was in fact stealing money from their mortgage account to pay for the trips.

Neither hold any positions in the organization any more. There is actually nothing to be "fired" from.
In fact the OM was recently suspended for unrelated reasons.

It was the latest trip that finally prompted me to investigate.
Because they no longer held any position, she could no longer use the excuse of being chosen for promotional work and came up with a completely crazy story for flying off again, at short notice.


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Originally Posted by PTSD
Neither hold any positions in the organization any more. There is actually nothing to be "fired" from.
In fact the OM was recently suspended for unrelated reasons.

I don't understand. Are you saying they are no longer involved with this organization? Why was this ever brought up?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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**EDIT**


Last edited by Denali; 03/25/16 09:16 AM. Reason: TOS - posting personal philosophies
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A reminder that the purpose of this forum is to coach posters in the use of MB concepts. It is not a platform for personal philosophies. Please familiarize yourself with MB materials before posting. Email me with any questions. Thank you.


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For the first two of the last three years they did hold positions. She the top position and was afforded the ability to appoint the second chair, which was given to him.

I mentioned the subject of the organization because that is how they met. It is how they were able to come up with excuses for the online talking at all hours, and false reasons for taking the trips. The excuse was that it was always to promote and run the daily activities of the organization.

A year ago someone else was elected to the top position and a full new administration was appointed.

She and I are still involved with the organization, but only as standard volunteers. He was recently suspended for reasons unknown to me and currently holds no connection.

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Things are getting better... slowly.
She has moved from "It is all over!", to "I do not know what I want".
Our conversations are getting longer as well. still relatively short, so I have not been able to dive into the detailed concepts described here on the site, but they do increase a few minutes each time and I have been able to touch on the subjects.

For anyone who might read this, I credit the the idea of exposure as a major and positive first step. It really cracked the egg open and brought some reality to all involved. It is breaking their delusional fantasy, and I have learned more about what lead up to this.

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I have a new question...

I found the last exposure target on his side.
I believe it is his father.

It may be relatively common, but have found that I and the OM's spouse have been leaning on each other for some support. (I providing a bit more since I have studied this site and she has not), as well as continuing to update each other of the information we discover.

But within these conversations, she has mentioned that she does not want to tell his parents. That it would be a detriment to her and what she is trying to do (Ie: healing her marriage).

She says she will give him a deadline to tell his friends first and then his parents later.

(I have already told several of his friends and I am guessing he has not revealed this to her)

I have not told her I have discovered his fathers info.

I am stuck between proceeding and risking her cutting contact with me, or wait until her deadline has passed (and still possibly risking her to cease contact).


* I did previously send the news to his sister.

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Originally Posted by PTSD
I have not told her I have discovered his fathers info.

I am stuck between proceeding and risking her cutting contact with me, or wait until her deadline has passed (and still possibly risking her to cease contact).


* I did previously send the news to his sister.

I would expose to his parents and any other contacts asap and then email her and tell her what you have done. Explain that you have done this at the suggestion of Dr Bill Harley in the hopes that his parents would persuade their son to leave your wife alone. LEt her know that Dr Harley strongly suggests that all family members and close friends are exposed so you would urge her to do this too.

You have to do the right thing for your marriage and should not agree to unwise tactics just to placate the other BS. She is making a critical, strategic mistake by not exposing but you shouldn't make the same mistake.


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Originally Posted by PTSD
It may be relatively common, but have found that I and the OM's spouse have been leaning on each other for some support. (I providing a bit more since I have studied this site and she has not), as well as continuing to update each other of the information we discover.

ALSO, you do not want to use her for support, per se. You only want her to use her influence to help bust up the affair. It is easy to develop an unhealthy relationship with the other BS. You don't want to do that.

Has she told her H she knows about the affair? She is making strategic, foolish mistakes by keeping this affair a secret from family and friends.


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She did tell him. The same day I told her.
She said she is slowly getting him to face reality. That between his tears he has been opening up a bit about what has been happening.

I also sent her the link to this site and the "Exposure 101" thread. I explained how it has helped to break this open by telling others.

That is when she said she didn't think it was right for her and wanted to give him a deadline.

By what I have said to her , and "if" she did read that thread she would know that I have been already doing it.

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Originally Posted by PTSD
That is when she said she didn't think it was right for her and wanted to give him a deadline.

What is the deadline for?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by PTSD
She did tell him. The same day I told her.
She said she is slowly getting him to face reality. That between his tears he has been opening up a bit about what has been happening.

I also sent her the link to this site and the "Exposure 101" thread. I explained how it has helped to break this open by telling others.

That is when she said she didn't think it was right for her and wanted to give him a deadline.

By what I have said to her , and "if" she did read that thread she would know that I have been already doing it.

PTSD, the other BS does not understand what she is doing. Exposure is "right" for everyone, including her. The fact that she thinks she can talk him into reality indicates she doesn't understand the fog. The most effective thing to wake up a WS is EXPOSURE, and she is not doing that.

But you need to do what is best for your marriage and expose to the OM's parents, family and friends in order to ensure he stays away. Your marriage cannot afford her strategic mistakes.


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Her deadline is a few days after easter. She said she didn't want to ruin it for the children.

Do you suggest telling her that his sister (and several friends) already know? I am almost certain he has not told her others aleady know. I am also 100% positive some of the people have already told him they know.

I can explain that it was done during my rounds of exposure that I have already spoken to her about. (which included herself) That it is the sole reason the fantasy has been shattered and agin encourage her to reach the people I was not able to.

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What is the deadline FOR? For her exposing to the parents and family?


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Are you reading my posts?


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I understand now. I had thought you were asking about the time limit.

The only reason I was given for there even being a deadline is that she thought telling others right away would be a detriment rather than a positive.

* As well as the easter/ ruin it for children reason.

* At a different point in the conversation she made this statement... "His mom would kill him if she knew".

So perhaps she is actually trying to protect him.

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Originally Posted by PTSD
I understand now. I had thought you were asking about the time limit.

The only reason I was given for there even being a deadline is that she thought telling others right away would be a detriment rather than a positive.

* As well as the easter/ ruin it for children reason.

Did you read my comments about you doing the exposure to his parents, family now?

There is NEVER a perfect time to do exposures. In fact, it is better to do it before a major holiday because family will be together. Of course you can't expose to his kids, but you can contact his parents and SHOULD do that yourself.


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Made an edit above.

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I will do it today.

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Originally Posted by PTSD
I will do it today.

Perfect!! And yes, it is hopeful his mother "will kill him!" That is the point. That is what you want. Do you know what to say to her?

Tell her all about the affair and ask her to use her influence to persuade her to leave your wife alone. Be sure and give her all your contact information so she can call with any followup questions.


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I only have his fathers FB page. It looks lik his mother is not on FB (although I do have her name).

I believe I will also tell him that his son's sister and wife already know and that his wife has already confronted him. Jumpstart their conversation, without them staring at each other wondering.

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Originally Posted by PTSD
I only have his fathers FB page. It looks lik his mother is not on FB (although I do have her name).

I believe I will also tell him that his son's sister and wife already know and that his wife has already confronted him. Jumpstart their conversation, without them staring at each other wondering.

Sounds good! Can you call the parents house?


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No other informatin beside the FB page. I was planning to send a friend request imidiatly followed by the letter in the chat window.

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Originally Posted by PTSD
No other informatin beside the FB page. I was planning to send a friend request imidiatly followed by the letter in the chat window.

I would try sending a private message to him telling him about the affair and asking him to call you. He likely won't accept a friend request from a stranger. You can't find his phone #? Did you search for it?


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I did try and came up empty.
I was told by the OM's spouse that she was able to see my original message, even before accepting the request.

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Originally Posted by PTSD
I did try and came up empty.
I was told by the OM's spouse that she was able to see my original message, even before accepting the request.

Gotcha! I didn't realize you could do that. Go ahead and try that and see if it works. You can put your phone # in there and ask him to call you right away. Say something like "your son, Joe Dirtbag, is having an affair with my wife and I really need your help. Can you or your wife call me at XXX-XXX-XXXX."


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Update broken into the next few posts, followed by a few new questions.
If anyone might have some advice I would be grateful.


The exposure has done it's job to break this open. Judging by the replies, from both sides of the people I have contacted, or the acceptance... and then subsequent cancellation of "FB friend" requests from the OM's contacts, I know the message has reached everyone... or at least nearly everyone.

I also confronted the OM, through harshly written emails, several times. He sent me no replies, but told my wife about it almost instantly.

* I try not to let it bother me, but of the couple/ few of the OM's friends that have replied to me, their messages were all similar...
They have no influence, can't help, I should not be telling anyone, and it is likely my fault that it has happened.

(In return, our friends have no problem sending her messages)

My wife became upset again when she opened FB for the first time in a month and found 80 messages from people asking if everything was okay.
This was a week ago. She was again upset that people know, only this time the anger lasted simply hours instead of days and the progress resumed, that very day.

Things have been slowly getting better.
Spending some time together nearly every day, eating meals several times as a family, and us talking a bit more about what lead up to the affair, sharing various chores, watching movies... etc.

We are calling, seeing and talking more and more. Even talking about possible futures.
Her invisible wall of physical personal space is also slowly breaking down.

She has also stated she will have no more independent behaviors and has agreed to mutual decision making.

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It feels like progress, but I am still unsure.

On one hand, the actions listed above were previously out of the question in her mind.

But... apparently "I will no longer have independent behaviors", and "mutual decision making" does not yet include cutting off contact with the OM.
The replies to that are... "Feelings just don't dissolve instantly"

I have told her I am hurt deeply, physically and emotionally drained, and find it difficult to spend more emotional energy, while knowing she is still in contact with the OM.

She seems more comfortable when she initiates the subject of the affair, but starts to get upset when I initiate the subject or try to expand on something she has said about it.

She says her.. "pain"... lasted years, while mine has only been for a couple months and refuses to remember that I tried many times to find out what was wrong for a long time.

When I state that contact must cease with the OM, and that it involves a "no contact" letter that we write together to accomplish closure, and then ask if she understands, I get in return... "I know where you are coming from".
But, no commitment to actually do it.

(She also refuses to remove a necklace that he bought for her. An "in your face" symbol that she knows hurts those who see it)

I do know the OM closed his personal FB account, and his wife has told me he is seeing a therapist.
That the OM has told his spouse that they will work more at their own recovery.

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It has been just under 2 months since I found out, and 1 month since the exposure.

My questions are...

She is the one who dictates what times and for how long we will see each other, gets upset and shuts down quickly when I try talking with her honestly, and as mentioned, currently refuses to end contact with the OM.

It has not happened yet... But, with her apparently putting in effort that was nearly inconceivable a while ago, and at the same time refusing to immediately end contact with the OM, it feels a bit like the very early stages of a "Plan C".


I do believe we will spend time together nearly every day, but she is still living in her mothers home.

Selling our house has been our plan for quite a long time, and she does not want to move back to this home.
But, when I say wherever our home may be does not matter to me, only she does.... she says "then let's get it sold".

It's like a yo-yo emotionally, sometimes even in the same conversation.
I am struggling as to what to do next.


According to the advice, can Plan A continue without an immediate commitment to end contact with the OM ?

(I have read on the site that a BH is recommended to wait 6 months to two years for significant progress)

Has the time since discovery and exposure been too short to expect that to happen so soon?

She has said she wants me to slow down and not talk of the affair as much.

Can plan A continue with periods of not talking of ending contact with the OM, and/ or periods of not talking at all?

(I have read on the site that not making the WW upset is essential, but also that the continued demand to end contact is equally essential)

* Again the OM is half a world away, so it is an online emotional affair at this point.


She has also said a couple times that I am the one causing his and his family embarrassment (not the lying, cheating OM in the first place).

He has also told her and she believes that he has moved out of his home.

I know both of these to be untrue.

I would like to forcefully and bluntly state both of these facts, but is that recommended?


Thanks again to all.

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Originally Posted by PTSD
It feels like progress, but I am still unsure.

On one hand, the actions listed above were previously out of the question in her mind.

But... apparently "I will no longer have independent behaviors", and "mutual decision making" does not yet include cutting off contact with the OM.
The replies to that are... "Feelings just don't dissolve instantly"

I have told her I am hurt deeply, physically and emotionally drained, and find it difficult to spend more emotional energy, while knowing she is still in contact with the OM.

She seems more comfortable when she initiates the subject of the affair, but starts to get upset when I initiate the subject or try to expand on something she has said about it.

She says her.. "pain"... lasted years, while mine has only been for a couple months and refuses to remember that I tried many times to find out what was wrong for a long time.

When I state that contact must cease with the OM, and that it involves a "no contact" letter that we write together to accomplish closure, and then ask if she understands, I get in return... "I know where you are coming from".
But, no commitment to actually do it.

(She also refuses to remove a necklace that he bought for her. An "in your face" symbol that she knows hurts those who see it)

I do know the OM closed his personal FB account, and his wife has told me he is seeing a therapist.
That the OM has told his spouse that they will work more at their own recovery.

My wife kept a gold chain with a small gold heart from the OM She wore it for a few years before she took it off.

Then after she finally took it off it would reappear every about every three years over twenty five years. Until the last time it appeared. I finally taped it to a rock drove with wife to the ocean and threw it in.

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Originally Posted by PTSD
He has also told her and she believes that he has moved out of his home.

I know both of these to be untrue.

I would like to forcefully and bluntly state both of these facts, but is that recommended?

Your wife is hoping he will divorce his wife for her. That is the plan here and why she is dragging this out. I would tell your wife the truth and have the OM's wife call her and bring her up to speed.

You should be telling the OM's wife everything you know about this. Did you contact the OM's parents?


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Originally Posted by PTSD
It has been just under 2 months since I found out, and 1 month since the exposure.

My questions are...

She is the one who dictates what times and for how long we will see each other, gets upset and shuts down quickly when I try talking with her honestly, and as mentioned, currently refuses to end contact with the OM.

It has not happened yet... But, with her apparently putting in effort that was nearly inconceivable a while ago, and at the same time refusing to immediately end contact with the OM, it feels a bit like the very early stages of a "Plan C".


I do believe we will spend time together nearly every day, but she is still living in her mothers home.

Selling our house has been our plan for quite a long time, and she does not want to move back to this home.
But, when I say wherever our home may be does not matter to me, only she does.... she says "then let's get it sold".

It's like a yo-yo emotionally, sometimes even in the same conversation.
I am struggling as to what to do next.


According to the advice, can Plan A continue without an immediate commitment to end contact with the OM ?

(I have read on the site that a BH is recommended to wait 6 months to two years for significant progress)

Has the time since discovery and exposure been too short to expect that to happen so soon?

She has said she wants me to slow down and not talk of the affair as much.

Can plan A continue with periods of not talking of ending contact with the OM, and/ or periods of not talking at all?

(I have read on the site that not making the WW upset is essential, but also that the continued demand to end contact is equally essential)

* Again the OM is half a world away, so it is an online emotional affair at this point.


She has also said a couple times that I am the one causing his and his family embarrassment (not the lying, cheating OM in the first place).

He has also told her and she believes that he has moved out of his home.

I know both of these to be untrue.

I would like to forcefully and bluntly state both of these facts, but is that recommended?


Thanks again to all.
I think that you have to tread more carefully than some BHs in Plan A because you wife is not living with you. She left you nearly a year ago, and has made no commitment to returning to the marriage. Therefore, when you tell her that contact with OM is terribly upsetting to you, and so on, this does not have the same moral force as if she were living with you and making the pretence of continuing in the marriage.

What you can do, if exposure is complete and there is no more to do on that front, is invite your wife out on dates several times a week. You need to court her back to the marriage the way you courted her into marriage in the first place - and that was not by inviting her round to your house and focusing on domestic issues.

I don't know why you don't take her at her word and sell the house. Moving after an affair has taken place has a very cathartic effect on recovery, even when the affair took place across continents and not in the house, as in your case.

Do not make unilateral decision about selling, however. You should never much such decisions in marriage, and should always use The Policy of Joint Agreement. To do this, you would first get her agreement to the principle of selling the house, making it clear that you see the new home as a home for both of you, and that you value her input at every stage.

You would then agree on how much to spend sprucing up the house for sale, and you would look at new homes together. Even if she said she could not move in with you yet, because she has not made up her mind to return to you, if you could get the agreement in principle that if she returns, you will live in a new home together, you could use finding that new home as a way to woo your wife back. You'd be spending time on undivided attention when you look at new homes together, and depositing love bank units when you show her how much you want her to be happy with the eventual choice.

She doesn't want to go back to you where you are (though I understand that the home is not the issue - OM is the issue), and you could help drive forward a change and reconciliation if you focused on a new future for you both.

I do think you would benefit enormously from personal advice from Dr Harley. Your case is somewhat non-standard, with OM living on a different continent (and still the affair does not end), and your wife having moved out, and moved on, before you discovered the existence of the affair.

You will get free advice from Dr Harley if you write to him care of the radio show. You can appear as a guest on the show, or you can simply have your email addressed without appearing.


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Your wife is hoping he will divorce his wife for her. That is the plan here and why she is dragging this out. I would tell your wife the truth and have the OM's wife call her and bring her up to speed.

You should be telling the OM's wife everything you know about this. Did you contact the OM's parents?
I haven't read through everything you wrote on your exposure, and I wrote my post in the expectation that you had done everything possible on this front.

You need to follow MelodyLane's advice to the letter. Proper exposure is the single most important step you can take to bring about the end of this affair. If you can get your wife to realise that this man will never be there for her - by making her confront him and ask why he is still living with his wife - and if you can get his parents to show him how shocked they are that he would break up another person's marriage, you could bring this to a close very quickly.

How thorough has your exposure been?


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The exposure was all on FB and consisted of..

OM's wife -
(which I am still in contact with)

OM's Father -
Initial exposure and included in a recent follow up to say his son is still in contact with her.
(He did not contact me back but did remove my friend request)

OM's Sister -
(whom oddly enough has kept me as a FB friend even after the second follow up message)

OM Friends -
7 of them, and in turn they spread it to at least three more.
This includes 3 of his local closest friends, and 3 whom have provided him working opportunities.
(The same 3 they lied about providing the trips)

* Only a few of them have replied to me, but all have shown indication that they have seen them. Mainly by first accepting, and then reversing the friend requests.


On my and wife's side, many, many people know.
Including both of our families and many friends.

The OM's wife is very reluctant to email or call my wife.
She did send her one message, but has since told me it has not been marked as read.

The OM's wife is a mixed benefit.
She does share information, but is reluctant to perform exposure
(even though she knows I have already contacted several of his friends)
She also seems to often tell her husband when we have communicated... which he in turn tells my wife and it comes back to me in the form of her being upset.

Wy wife is "convinced" that the OM is the one telling the truth and that his wife is lying about their own recovery.

She denies that he still lives at home, that he still sleeps with his wife, that he is not seeing a therapist, that there is still hope he will leave his wife and children, abandon his life and relocate half way around the world.

It's almost like talking to a crazy person.

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"My wife is "convinced" that the OM is the one telling the truth and that his wife is lying about their own recovery."

I should mention that her belief bounces back and forth between being convinced that he is the one telling the truth to stating that perhaps he is a liar.

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Quick question...

I have found out there are others whom have sent her support messages from whom I did not think or consider exposing to.

They have done so because word spread that "something is wrong" but do not know what it is.

Although it has been a month since the initial exposure, do I contact these individuals and fill them in as I did with the others?

Or, is that considered a "trickle exposure" and as a result cause the WW to become again upset at her BH?

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How do you know that they only know "something is wrong", but do not know what it is?

How do you know they are sending support messages?

What do these messages say?


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She finally checked her FB, about a month after the exposure and found "80 messages" (her words) regarding all of this.

I said, I am certain all of the messages are positive, what did they say?

Answer... "They all say they heard something is wrong, and want to know if they can help"

Again those are her words, so it could be that they do know and only phrased it in that manner.

I did see two emails from people specifically stating they do not know what it is, but heard something is wrong.

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Update today:

The OM's wife sent my wife a lengthy letter explaining that he has been lying to her just as much as to everyone else. That he still sleeps in the bed, has not moved out, is seeing a therapist, had been stealing his family's mortgage money to pay for their trips...etc

She drove home the fact that they have been living in a fantasy and real life is different than the vacations and online messages they have created around themselves.
That he will not be moving away or leaving his children.


My wife copied the letter, sent it back to him, and included this at the top...


<< I....I don't know what to say or believe.
It's probably in everyone's best interest if I send your things either back to you or to your sister or parents in Canada.


If it was all lies and fantasy..thank you for an experience I will always remember. >>


This all happened in the last 2 hours and my wife does not know I have seen all of this.

what is my next step?
Do I see or talk to her today?
Do I let her think for a while?


This seems big, and I would like to take full advantage of it.


Edit:
I am almost certain that he will try to sweet talk his way out of it. Saying it is actually his wife who is lying.
I feel I need to do something before that happens, and she possibly falls for it again.


* I'm pretty sure I should also send her reply to the OM's wife.

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A short while ago she called me.

We joked for a while about a few other subjects, then she paused for a moment and said... "You don't have to worry anymore. I will not be seeing or talking to him again".

But, that was followed calmly by... "I don't want to be with anyone, you or him"

I then stopped by her work, she took a break and said the same thing. I told her again she is the love of my life. Offered to take her out after work (which she said... "No, but thank you")

Before returning to work, she said we would talk later.

I know that inside she must be a emotional and I am not sure what to think.

That is where is stands as of this moment.

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Originally Posted by PTSD
Update today:

The OM's wife sent my wife a lengthy letter explaining that he has been lying to her just as much as to everyone else. That he still sleeps in the bed, has not moved out, is seeing a therapist, had been stealing his family's mortgage money to pay for their trips...etc
Why doesn't OMW simply send your wife a picture of her husband in her bed, asleep? Of her husband at breakfast in his jammies?

She does not seem to be very forceful in telling your wife to get her tail out of her marriage. She seems to be pleading with your wife to leave him alone. Why is she putting up with her husband telling your wife that he does not live there? Why doesn't she demand that her husband sends your wife an NC letter, if he wants to stay in his home?

I can't understand why she's being so gentle about this.

On your part, you could hire a PI online to watch their house for a day or two, and prove to your wife that he is living there. We've had people do this from another continent before.

There is so much more you could do.


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Originally Posted by PTSD
But, that was followed calmly by... "I don't want to be with anyone, you or him"
I wrote you a long post about selling your house. You didn't respond to it.


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The house is definitely going up for sale.
It has been the plan before I even discovered what was happening.

* and we are both in agreement on that point.


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I agree that the OM's spouse is being too gentle.
I have encouraged her several times to be more forceful and in fact to go off on my wife in a phone call. She chose instead to write a letter through email.

It does however seem to have had an effect, considering what my wife wrote back to him and then told me that she will no longer be speaking to him.

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My immediate dilemma is what to do if we do not end up talking later today/ tomorrow.

Do I hold and hope she does call at some point?
Or, try to initiate another conversation?

My heart tells me to try and talk to her... constantly.
My head says that might not be such a good idea.

(When I get stuck like this I often send her a text message saying how much I love her)

Also, do I send the note in which she sent the OM, to the OM's wife?

If the other BS uses my wife's exact words to her husband, it will likely come back to me and my WW will know I still have access.

Still unsure if there is anything I can/ must do before he possibly tries to again convince her that his wife is the one not telling the truth.

* I will suggest to the other BS to take/send the photo in bed.
I'm guessing I would have to first explain the effect her letter had.

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I explained the letter to the OM's spouse... but she already knew.

The OM's spouse has told me he is seeing the no contact as very much permanent.

Apparently there were additional messages, not through email, that more forcefully described no contact as permanent.

she said he was angry and has told her that my wife is deleting him as a contact and would not be speaking to him again, followed by... 'Well, you and he have won."


My wife told me again today that she knows he had been lying to her all along.


The scary part now is that within the last 24 hours she has started saying she does not want anyone. That although she knows he was lying the whole time that he made her "feel" loved.

I told her lies are not love.

She said it was how she felt .. and that I "just don't get it".

The last thing said between us today was my saying ... "I have learned and understand. That she will be a princess forever. Never to feel lonely or not loved. Reaffirmed every second."


My feeling now is that I once agin hold, let her think and recover for a while... and hope she calls in the next couple/ few days.






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The other thing that I recommended, to which you did not respond, was to write to Dr Harley at the radio show.

MB is an action-based programme, and the forum advice focuses on actions you can take. Posters don't tend to get a good response to long, blog-like, reflective posts that do not focus on the specific steps we recommend you to take.

You need to know from Dr Harley whether there is anything more you can do in Plan A, with a wife who moved out nearly a year ago.


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When I write, do I include a link to this thread?
Start from the begining?
Just hit main points?

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Originally Posted by PTSD
When I write, do I include a link to this thread?
Start from the begining?
Just hit main points?
There's no fixed way to do it. Surely you can write an email laying out the problem?


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Do you listen to the radio show on a regular basis? Have you downloaded the free app?


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Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.


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Letter sent and addressed on today's show.

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I've only just noticed this post. I can't listen to the radio right now. What did Dr Harley say?


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They actually spent a good portion of the show on it.

Basic advice given was:

Stick to Plan A.
Do not have deep or philosophical discussions.
Try to keep all talk fun.
Ask for dates and/or fun activities at least every other day.
Treat her like a Queen.
Make deposits when possible.
Likely to see some light through the tunnel in about 3 months.


It's going to be tough as we do talk a little every day, more text than phone or in person, (she gets much less upset texting than during a phone call), but when I tell her how special she is, or exactly how I will meet this need or that, the next statement from her simply relates to whatever the previous topic was.

So, "treating her like a Queen" is a rough path.

She will talk to me about any other subject, but asking to do fun things results in "no" answers and "stop it".

I have a feeling that asking every other day might be a bit too much.

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Both have now deactivated their FB pages. The OM two weeks ago, and her just yesterday.

Not sure what to make of that.
I know she told him "I will never regret our time together"... but the closing of the pages seems to indicate guilt or embarrassment.


* She tried to say it was because I was sharing "crap" on her page (photos of her, I and our children with praises along side them), but one can simply hide stuff on their timeline, no need to shut down the whole page.

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Here is the radio clip of your email.
Radio Clip of PTSD's e-mail


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Thank you for the link. I have saved it.


It has been 6 weeks since exposure and it had the effect it was intended to. By all evidence the affair has ended. (although one can not be 100% sure)

I do know some charity acquaintances (members of the current administration) have been sending my WW support messages, not really knowing what has happened, but asking if there is anything they can do.

Would it be a benefit to tell them myself, or does this prove to be detrimental, after this amount of time?

She has calmed from the exposure, and I think by doing more it will prove to cause another round of extreme anger.

My wife is becoming more friendly, but after I respected her wishes and slowed down, the communication is slowing drastically.

I keep up with a couple flattering messages each day and ask how she is, but texts are now only getting a couple words to nothing in reply, and phone calls/ visits have dropped to nearly nothing.

I am feeling that the more I hold off, the more I am quietly loosing her.

Thank you as always.


Edit:
I have discovered, just now, that at least some of these people sending her support letters do in fact know, to some extent, what has happened and whom the OM is. Apparently word of the exposure letters has found its way through the grapevine, to both friends and those who want to humiliate her. One of the people sending my wife a support letter is a member of the current charity administration (the person in charge of discipline/ conflict resolution) and is asking me if what they heard is true. I am at a loss as to if it would be a benefit to confirm to this person what has happened.

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The remaining members of the current charity staff are already hostile toward my WW and there is a good chance that if they get word the situation has been directly confirmed, it would result in public humiliation for her.

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I thought the advice in previous posts was to expose at the charity, especially since your wife and the OM were using the charity to meet up in other cities.

Resign from the charity and find a different one, local that doesn't involve overnight travel. There are plenty of good causes out there.


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Originally Posted by PTSD
The remaining members of the current charity staff are already hostile toward my WW and there is a good chance that if they get word the situation has been directly confirmed, it would result in public humiliation for her.

Correction: her AFFAIR will cause public humiliation, not exposing it.

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I fully understand that, but what I do not need or want is another round of anger toward me, 6 weeks after the initial exposure, and setting any progress made back to zero.

These are people who will not support me or talk to her about it. It will spread word of the affair wider, but they will only use it in an effort to hurt her (and in turn she will blame me) or cause trouble for both of us.

* I have already resigned from the charity.

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Originally Posted by PTSD
Edit:
I have discovered, just now, that at least some of these people sending her support letters do in fact know, to some extent, what has happened and whom the OM is. Apparently word of the exposure letters has found its way through the grapevine, to both friends and those who want to humiliate her. One of the people sending my wife a support letter is a member of the current charity administration (the person in charge of discipline/ conflict resolution) and is asking me if what they heard is true. I am at a loss as to if it would be a benefit to confirm to this person what has happened.

Only good can come from this exposure.

This charity has a cancer. The OM and WW must be removed forever from it. I am sure that the charity moneys have been misspent on this affair.

The person contacting you needs your help for her to be able to clean house at the charity.

Also your WW can no longer be involved there for so many reasons but the most important one is that she used the charity as a cover for her affair and used the charity to cover her over night trips with the OM.

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That is done.

Provided some detail on how the organization was used to carry on an affair and how everyone within it were openly lied to.

I explained the situation and that it is essential contact with the OM must be permanent. Steps are being taken to prevent the OM from returning, after his suspension for a non-related reason, (which ends next February) and my wife has little interest in returning.

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I have refrained from doing so as much as I would like, but do very desperately want to tell her every day how much she is loved and that whatever faults (which I am still basically unaware of) she had with me are gone.
That I have the tools and we can rebuild a great marriage and partnership.

But the times that I do approach the subject, she actually gets turned off by this... "I'm not going through this with you now".

"The damage is done. Do the townspeople care if the dam is fixed, after the town is flooded?"

Ignoring the obvious and talking about other subjects gains some results (ie: longer phone calls by a few minutes) but she no longer initiates the communication, has stopped the occasional visits to home, and we now only text/ talk about an hour and a half, spread throughout the week.

Not through my lack of trying, but through a lack of response.
She reads the messages, but only occasionally gives a few words to something I have written, or answer the phone only after repeted tries.

I know it has only been 10 weeks since discovery and 6 since exposure, (although we have been separated... with very little explanation... for 11 months) but I feel very little progress is being made and the effort I put in is not being returned in an amount I can hold onto.

As advised through the radio program, I do regularly suggest non-romantic, fun things to do.
Those were previously met with solid "No" answers, but now the response is "I don't know" or "I don't think that would be a good idea".
Softer words, but I can't really consider it progress.

She also tries to continually pick apart sentences and find a fault or reason to get angry.
I then have to gently explain that the reason to get angry in which she is searching for, does not exist.

I have been nothing but calm, gentle, soft spoken and flattering, since the very day after discovery.

Based on current investment versus return, at least at this very moment in time, I see a projection of perpetual separation without divorce.
Wherein I continue to attempt deposits and am met with aggressive responses, small talk of non related subjects, or simply being ignored.

Things were looking better, but are slipping further backward, since she broke contact with the OM.

While I am in a sustained state of sadness, weeping, internal anger, and depression (all the while maintaining Plan A),
she seems to be unfazed and non-responsive.


My question is...

Based on such a scenario,

Do I keep up with initiating phone contact in an effort to provide deposits?
Do I continue with the flattering and/ conversational texts, knowing they are read but will likely not be replied to?

Do I go silent, not knowing how long it might be before she begins to open up... if ever.


Thank you again.

* It is helpful but very strange to seek advice on communicating with a women I have known completely and been married to for a quarter of a century.

** Mothers day is in a few days and our first anniversary apart is in two weeks.

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In the last couple days there has been a bit of change in her current personality.
She returns my wishes to have a great day, and hopes to have a good night.

I have most recently stated that I thank God every day for blessing me with her and that I hope she will open her heart to all I have been saying.

Her response to this is... She has been listening to all I have been saying, and knows I am struggling to accept what she has been saying (that she will not be coming back). That "...It is simply too late for us", followed with a well wished goodnight and to get some rest.

I then explained that if she gives us some time together, I will prove every day that I know what it takes to make her happy.
But that it must start with time for attention.

Followed by each other saying "Good night".


I am still unsure of how to continue, with the same questions as just above...

-Do I keep up with initiating phone contact in an effort to provide deposits?
-Do I continue with the flattering and/ conversational texts, knowing they are read but will often likely not be replied to?
-Keep up with explaining I know what it takes and have forever been changed?

-Do I go silent, not knowing how long it might be before she opens up, or is the one to initiate communication... if ever?


As always, thank you.

* 10 weeks since discovery, 6 since exposure, 2 since breaking contact with OM.


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If you are in Plan A then you keep up with Plan A.

Have you written Dr. Harley again? Are you taking ADs?


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I have written again and am awaiting a reply.

Although it is tough to build deposits through infrequent phone calls and text messages, I am still keeping with Plan A.

(If I had her back home, I know how to build deposits in great numbers)

No, no AD's yet.
(although I know she has researched one for herself)
I've just felt that if I do start taking them, I am losing and forced into something I never thought or envisioned I would ever need. And, forced upon me by something not of my own doing.

It is definitely a roller coaster.
Just when I thought it might not be working, I decided to visit old friends and party for a weekend.
This caused me to loosen up with the messaging and talk about fun times in the past, and I did not hide my effort to tell her I love her.

She actually replied and put some effort in to carry on a conversation.

I have started texting song lyrics to a song she knows reminds me of her, and with each reply, I type in the next verse.

Today I called, we talked for a 1/2 hour and I said I miss her and need to see her.

"I'll will come today" ... was the reply.

It won't be alone time as the children will be here, but I guess I will see what happens.

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What Plan A plans do have for when you see her?

I strongly recommend you contact your doctor for some ADs. Dr. Harley recommends them during this trying time.


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In regard to plans concerning activities, I am constantly suggesting fun things to do.

Walking, nature walking, reading novels out loud (she loves reading) , a classic cinema theater nearby, pub visits, looking into a new outdoor hobbies, ice cream parlor, out for coffee...

If those get a "no" answer, I have suggestions for staying inside... a line of films to watch, or perhaps her television shows... even just talking about anything.

If plans about pampering: I tell her I love her every day, how beautiful she is, how I am blessed, how she has blessed us with our children, talk about her day, her work frustrations, her favorite books (and how far along I am reading her absolute favorite), her doctor visits... etc.


* Yesterday didn't go so well. What I thought would be hours turned to only minutes before she became upset and left.
She came back 40 mins later, for an unrelated reason, and agreed to try again tomorrow morning.

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This is all foreign to me so I would like to ask if this is typical behavior.

( I believe I have heard similar circumstances on the radio program )

She is in a state of wanting to find any excuse to get angry, lash out, yell, blame, accuse, threaten, claim I am not trying to work with her.
(I do nothing to spur these on)

* This happens between occasional half efforts on her part to put in effort.

Bits of sentences cause it, spoken words cause it, non-spoken words cause it, friendly talking causes it, calmness causes it, being nice causes it, flattery causes it.
Even her own wrongdoings are somehow my fault.

I have, every time, refused to engage in an argument and simply continue to remain soft spoken, letting her know I never want to see her upset, that I have been proving I will not show anger, disrespect or make demands. The more she gets angry, the more calm I become... even continuing with flattery and compliments.

Not sure what to think or make of it.

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I guess I'll keep this thread to generalizations, as I build a longer range scope of things.

Things are so way up and way down, continually.

Today, (relatively speaking) was a full 180 from what is described just above.

She asked... not demanded, this afternoon, if it was alright to bring the children to her mothers tonight.
I agreed as long as she brought them to school tomorrow on time.
(she has had a habit of letting them skip or bring them in late, when spending the night with her)

She said she promises to and "crosses her heart".

She participated in the POJA and actually initiated it in regard to days of the week for her to spend time with them and also agreed those days of the week would be optional... not guaranteed.
She declined lunch out, but suggested ordering dinner.


Result:

An hour and a half of time together here at home watching television (the usual routine has been to wait in the car, for the kids to come out to her)
Dinner (pizza).
No anger.
Accepted compliments.
Accepted touching and small hugs.
OM's necklace was gone (probably for the first time since it was given to her).
"will think about" going out over the weekend.


* It was nice, and the longest time given for deposits in quite a while, but I'm still keeping to reality.

These things might have been accepted only because I agreed to let her keep the children overnight. (although I have accepted before and did not have such results)

An hour and a half is short compared to the very real possibility she could have spent several more hours if wanting to do so.

"Will think about" going out, likely means no.

Did not want to hug when leaving.

Tomorrow is another day.

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And... already way back down the tube, just for asking if she would like to stop for morning coffee as she was only a block away, dropping the kids off at school after they spent the night with her.

A whole day of how terrible I am with anger and false accusations towards me.
(All the while with my only being supportive, positive, and incorporating the idea of using many of the lessons taught here, into my conversation)

She also already broke the joint agreement about the days the children will visit her. Today was not one of those days, but has them hanging out at her work for 5 hours, until she takes them back to her mothers again.

She did so while I was not home and not able to negotiate.

While the affair was happening she had little time for any of us, but now that it has ended she simply makes demands and takes them when she pleases. Any "resistance" from me (IE: trying to incorporate the POJA) causes further accusations of "My trying to keep her from her children as punishment"

In addition, my children are now repeating the same type of nonsense things she has been telling me and are also mad at me for non-existent reasons, including the same types of twisted facts and lapses in memories, as well as hanging up on me.

I told my wife... "It is fine that they spend another night at your mothers, although I would have liked you to stick with what we had agreed upon together. But, it is fine."

That (for various important reasons), "The children need to be brought to my mothers early in the day, so that I may talk with them and find out what is wrong". That "I love all of you with every ounce of my being, but I am not to blame for this".
"I support, help and guide my children, but that I will not be told what to do by them. That you need to support this and not keep attacking me".

That... "I am not afraid to say that all can be healed quickly and lovingly by the return of the love of my life, the mother of my children and the return of a true partnership of parents together".

She refused on all counts, including where and when to drop them off.

I never was granted an honest or real explanation of what the troubles were to begin with, never got an apology for crushing me. Never a sign of remorse and only a miniscule effort on behalf of my WW to heal things.

It is 11 weeks since discovery. Just under 8 since exposure, and just under 3 since she broke contact with OM (with no way to verify if it has resumed in any way).

MB is a wonderful program, developed and supported by caring people.
I will always be grateful for the policies I have learned here.

But the fact is I have worked hard to discover and heal whatever she was "sad" about. Double hard when my wife moved to her mom's just under a year ago. Triple hard, when I discovered the 3 year affair.

I am positive this program works if there is a some sort of even small amounts of continued effort on the part of the WS. I just seem to get more abused and given bits of false hope, the more kind, gentle and flattering I am, and the more I understandingly try to convey the policies taught here.

I am feeling what I did accomplish is to set the other BS on the road to recovery, while he lied to and screwed with my wife's head to such an extent that ours might be impossible.

I am 45, she is 42 and we have been together for just under 25 years, over half our lives.

I will not give up and will always be ready for Plan A when the opportunity arises. But it is likely time to stop initiating the contact for a while, and wait to see if any effort is put forth.
I am tempted to and a few "words of truth", but I am too mentally exhausted to go through that and it is not in my nature to do so.

Our first anniversary apart is in 6 days, and I will give her the presents I have for her.

* Roses, an autographed book from her favorite author, and a silver necklace designed to hold your wedding band.

After that... likely comes the unknown.

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Have you verified that she hasn't had any contact with OM?


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The only verification I can get is by directly asking her... in which the answer is "no".
(of course how does one tell if she is lying?)

Checking her primary email... which there are no emails to or from.
(But she has a Skype account and an ICQ account which I can not access)

Asking the OM's wife... which the answer is "I believe not".
(They are actually on the road to recovery, but he still has all his electronics locked away from his wife)

* My gut tells me she has not spoken to him. I have hinted at details in which the OM's wife has told me and my wife does not show indication of what I am talking about.

She also removed the necklace he bought her.

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So then how is your Plan A going?


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The hour and a half I described 5 posts up, post number #2881520, is the most positive result so far.

The next day it was right back to insulting and hurting me, claiming she is never coming back and to give her space.

If I am to keep attempting plan A it will be by my initiating each contact.
I am pretty sure if I were to stop phoning and texting, I would not hear from her for an indefinite amount of time.

My follow up letter made the radio program again, and the suggestion was to keep up being the best husband possible, and if there is no change in attitude in three months, to then perhaps be concerned.

But, she is not yet showing an indication of being open to all I have been saying. My fear is that based on the amount of progress so far, if there is a change in three months, it will be small and I will have again put forth everything I have.

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Originally Posted by PTSD
My follow up letter made the radio program again, and the suggestion was to keep up being the best husband possible, and if there is no change in attitude in three months, to then perhaps be concerned.
When was it read on the show?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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I believe it was on the 12th.

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I found it here (5/10) :

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/radio_programs.cfm?recno=506&sublink=507

* I did listen to it more than once but I am not subscribed so I cant re-listen.

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Originally Posted by PTSD
I found it here (5/10) :

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/radio_programs.cfm?recno=506&sublink=507

* I did listen to it more than once but I am not subscribed so I cant re-listen.


If you get the app for your phone, you should be able to access the archives. My iphone app has a archive where you can listen to past broadcasts.


Me 44
WW 44
dating/living together 7 years, married since Aug-2014

D-Day 04-25-2016
Affair Known 05-09-2016
Sober 4-27-2016
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I have tried, but once I search for past broadcasts and log in, I get a blank screen.

I am wondering if I should suggest the radio app to her, or would that be a bad idea?

I've thought about explaining there are great ideas to be heard and are in line with all I have been saying. But, I have a feeling once the discussion turns to affairs, or even exposure, it will backfire.



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Originally Posted by LMG
Originally Posted by PTSD
I found it here (5/10) :

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/radio_programs.cfm?recno=506&sublink=507

* I did listen to it more than once but I am not subscribed so I cant re-listen.


If you get the app for your phone, you should be able to access the archives. My iphone app has a archive where you can listen to past broadcasts.

You get all of the archives for free? LMG?

PTSD, it is totally worth $50 to pay for the archives. Then you can listen by topic which will help you so much. You can download certain ones to focus on. Access for a year is about the cost of a dinner out.

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I will very much look into doing that.

The show is great, but the difference I am finding is that it seems to primarily focus on non-separated couples.
Those that have longer and greater opportunities to make deposits.

As or right now mine focuses on texting and short phone calls.
Words rather than the opportunity for actions.

What I am struggling with now is that when I talk about rebuilding and my absolute desire to fulfill all of her needs, and ask her where she feels I have failed in the past, she becomes angry.

"It's too late". "You should know, without me having to tell you". "you are too old to learn change". "I am not giving you the chance".

I then keep, very gently and calmly, explaining my position that change can happen, that we can make each other happy, and that I ask these things because I want to learn and re-learn from and about her.

If she ends the call, the next conversation I initiate is about a non-related subject. Usually asking her if she would like to spend small amounts of time chatting or simple, non-deep activities (like reading, walking, lunch)

I also often tell her she is loved and treasured by me.
(although I am not sure how much is too much)

I can get a bit more time by talking about other topics she is interested in, but not much more.

Another situation I am having is that when she does become upset, she tosses out words such as lawyer... courts... divorce. But does not take any steps to move in that direction.

In addition, all of our family members phones are on a family plan under her name, and when upset threatens to remove mine and tells me to find another... but never actually does that either.

I have read in another thread that in their situation one spouse became upset at expressions of affection, but it was due to the deposits actually working and her unsure of what to do.

I am not sure if that is what is happening or if it is real.
I would think that if she really does want to divorce, take my phone or find a lawyer, some action would have been taken in that direction.


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My next questions (in two posts)
I am no longer sure what to do... not day by day, but hour by hour.

Today was nothing but silence.

Yesterday I had explained that I am not trying to push for anything super serious right now. That I know she is not ready for that.

Last night I got her to chat a little about her favorite books, and her most favorite, in which I am reading.
Then in the middle of the conversation the messages just stopped.

Throughout the night and through today I tried several times to get her talking again and the texts just piled up without reply.

(Last night were about just wanting to chat for a while.
This morning was about a dream I had of her. That I love and miss her. About it being a nice day. In the afternoon it was that I would be off work early and would like to know if she would like to go for a walk or read together).

Tried several times to phone throughout the day and although I know she is near the phone there is no answer.

I don't know what to do next, if there is anything I can do.

It seems the more I try the opportunities are growing smaller and the resistance higher. Opposite of the intention.

Our first anniversary apart is in 2 days.
Is there an opinion here on giving her the gifts I found?

- An autographed copy of a book by her favorite author/ series.
- A silver necklace designed to hold her wedding bands (intended to replace the one she removed from the OM)
* I traded the idea of roses for something more permanent.
She loves statues, so I found a nice one with a couple that very much looks like us.
- And of course a very nice anniversary card (in which I plan to write my feelings for her, what the gifts represent, and my vision of our future looking forward to the next quarter century as I did the last).

I am wondering if I should mention these gifts now, in an effort to get a response, or surprise her with a visit to her mothers in 2 days.

Should I not give them at all as it might look like pushing?

( I am a bit afraid she will say she does not want me to give them to her, before even knowing what they are)

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And my biggest fear... Plan B.
Something I would rather not do.

It seems Plan B is intended to be implemented as a means to end a still continuing affair.
I am almost certain this one ended just over three weeks ago with a final contact letter.

The OM already deleted his FB page, and his spouse has told me he deleted ICQ chat from his phone (but possibly not from his laptop).
That he has shown her his Skype chat and the last message was a missed call from my wife, also 3 just over weeks ago.

* A call she referenced in her letter as to not hearing back from him.
He has told his wife he was disappointed that his last attempt to contact my WW also did not get a response, and that "his wife and I have won".

* As mentioned, my wife also removed the necklace he bought her.

My question about a possible plan B, while having confidence the affair has ended, is how would I implement it if needed?

Do I tailor the expressions of hurt not to an ongoing affair but to the pain she is currently causing.

Is it possible to implement a Plan B, unannounced?
If she were to call about getting the children or some other reason, I simply say I am busy and to call this other person if you need to talk.

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I no longer need an opinion on the anniversary gifts. She came to pick up the children again (against my thoughtfully expressed wishes) and I explained what each represented and gave them to her two days early.

She at first said she did not want them. I explained their individual meanings and she did accept them, between bitter comments.

I said I love her several times (which resulted in a tight lipped scowl each time)

I figure I have nothing to loose. They could very well be the last anniversary presents I give, and the last poetic written message in a card, and I made them mean something special.

I again talked about working together to rebuild and asked if we could chat later and also perhaps schedule some time together to walk or possibly something else.

I got the usual "Maybe. I don't know" answer.

The day after the anniversary, 3 days from now, after I wish her a wonderful anniversary and work a little more an her accepting some time together, I will have to decide on continuing with Plan A, contemplate a Plan B... or just go silent and wait.

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I did notice, including the events described above that within the last 24 hours she has become more belligerent. The OM's spouse has said within that same 24 hours he has become sad.

She feels it is for other reasons, but it seems like a close coincidence.

If there is suspicion of contact (without proof) is there anything suggested that I can do, within my situation?

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Questions I still have:


Post #2881381

Based on the 100's of storied expressed on these forums, am I to expect such disrespectful and abusive behavior toward me for no reason? Outright name calling, swearing... ect?

Just for being caring, gentle, explaining change can happen, and expressing love?


Post #2881680

What am I to do about her now wanting, and succeeding, to take the children any time she pleases, for nights and days at a time, when she had little time for them while the affair was ongoing?
And, while they have been living here at home for the entire past year?
Do I start making a stand in regard to the children, knowing it will result in abuse sand steps backward?

*Even calmly trying to work on a mutual decision in this regard results in abuse and hang ups on calls.



Post #2882017

How do I tailor a possible Plan B for my separated situation, and her quite likely no longer in contact with the OM?



Post #2881915


Should suggest the radio app to her, or would that be a bad idea?




post #2882023

Do I stay with plan Plan A?
Tailor a Plan B... start an unannounced Plan B (ie: I tell her, each time, in an informal way that she will have to call someone else to contact me)

or just go silent and wait?


post #2882026

If there is increased belief that contact between the two WS's
has happened, is there much I can do?



* Should I start to explain that have a new life for the both of us, I am moving forward, and would like her there with ,me, (basically.. I'm going ahead with or without you)Or, do I continue asking for small amounts of time, every day?

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You are getting very discouraged because you are putting in lots of effort with seemingly no results. You can't educate her as if you know that there is a magic marriage pill that she doesn't know about. That would feel condescending. You can express a willingness to make changes from your side to create a life where you both can be happy. You should show her that you will listen to each and every concern she has. You should go about improving your skill in anything she needed from you over the years, but you lacked. Resolve any complaints she had about you, especially the things she felt you ignored. Do it on your own without making it a topic of conversation. Show her that those changes are permanent habits.

If you are doing all of that, then that's all you can do. It's up to her to give it a chance. You don't need to go overboard showering your wife with gifts and expressions of love. I would not bombard her constantly like a stalker, in a way that feels demanding. It should feel caring, light and supportive. Think about her day and what you could do to help her day be easier. Consistently behave as you did when you dated her. What did she like about you? Have you tried solving her problems? Domestic support? Family activities like bike rides, picnics or game nights? Have you improved your ability to provide financial security?

If she gets rude, try to remember that it comes from a surge in emotions. Tell her that you are sorry that you upset her and is there any way that you can help her feel better? Then if it continues, tell her that you've gotta go, but that you can talk later when things have calmed down. You can remove yourself when you are getting hurt.

Are you reading other threads? Because you can learn what to do by paying attention to the advice others receive. Focus on educating yourself right now so that you understand the basic concepts and applications inside out.

Plan B....the point is not to kill the affair. It could even make the affair stronger for a time. The point is that it protects you emotionally and preserves any love you have left for your wife. It leaves your wife with a message of care, positivity, and willingness to make her the most important person in your life.

If you get the radio show archive access, I would suggest searching for segments about affairs, and listen to every single one where the caller is male. Listening to MBR was a beneficial distraction for me during frustrating times.

This is a long post...the intent is to support you since I can see your discouragement. You may already be doing what I have suggested, and my intent is not to pressure you.

Others will come along who can better advise about the kid situation and if it's Plan B time. Hang in there PTSD.




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Thanks DQ,

I have been pushing I guess. Unintentionally.
It's tough not to express constantly, when you actually do love someone that much, and the reason she has given is that she didn't feel loved, without me yet fully understanding how that had happened.

I felt that expressing often that she is in fact loved dearly, would be beneficial, but the reactions tell me differently.

I have also been trying to break a wall, as to just get my foot in. What in fact frustrates me is that we are not living together, and the realization that IF it is going to work out, it is going to be a very long time process.

Trying to get a large amount of information/ deposits in, by piece mail and written words, without the physical closeness to show it by continued action, and face to face discussion, is very difficult.

I have been trying to overthink it and have been coming from a place of us being together and her being my wife for over 23 years.
I suppose I will shift to a slower gear, hang in there, and do what I can to treat her as I did when she was my GF.
( Yet now a reluctant GF )

Opportunities for deposits are going to be few and far between, but I guess that is all I can do. I only hope they build over time and are not forgotten while in between.

It's a bit scary because the doctor predicted, during my last email, that a drop in my love could happen any day... and within the last few days I can almost pinpoint when that small drop happened.

It is double edged, because although it has helped the depression somewhat, and has now caused me to calm down some and think a bit clearer in terms of our current status, it is still very deep and I do not want it to drop any further.

The drop has caused me to also resume activities outside of the house and once again connect with a few friends. I am going to start interspersing inviting her to already planned activities and less of solely trying to suggest things that could be.

She has no independent friends, so perhaps by seeing my return to those we are friends with will help her realize she has isolated herself and possibly want to join in.

* Sorry for the blog-ish post, I am still open to advice on my above questions.

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Originally Posted by PTSD
I suppose I will shift to a slower gear, hang in there, and do what I can to treat her as I did when she was my GF.

Yes! Because that's why she agreed to marry you in the first place.


Originally Posted by PTSD
I am going to start interspersing inviting her to already planned activities and less of solely trying to suggest things that could be.

She has no independent friends, so perhaps by seeing my return to those we are friends with will help her realize she has isolated herself and possibly want to join in.
Good brainstorming.

I have a neighbor whose ex husband sleeps over quite often lately. When she first moved in he didn't. But then I noticed him helping to landscape the yard, work on house repairs etc. Just a thought...

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Maybe someone can give me a suggestion on a couple issues?

I have resolved to keep my efforts to the frame of mind of treating her as a GF.
* This is going to take some creativity, as we all know while dating/ courting a GF, it is based on learning about them, finding their likes/ dislikes, discovering common interests.

I already know all of these things, so a courtship ritual will need to be something out of the ordinary.

Any suggestions?


My primary question is this...
As I mentioned above, today is our 21st wedding Anniversary and the first one separated.

I asked yesterday, in person, if she would like to go on a date today... the answer was no.

Should I today acknowledge this day to her in any special way?
All I have done so far is send a text saying "Good Morning", followed by "Happy Anniversary".

My instinct is to add a simple compliment or expression of what these decades have meant to me. And perhaps ask again if she would like to do something today. (keeping it light and simple such as lunch or a walk in the park)


Good idea?... Bad idea?... Couldn't hurt?

Thanks.



Today is also going to be rough, because I have decided that I am going to contact an attorney for a consultation on my situation with the kids.

I did express yesterday... very nicely (within the same time period of asking for a date) that I felt the fact that she was now claiming so many days as "her days" with the kids, was unfair and a mutual situation had to be agreed upon. She said she was open to doing that... but as I have no idea what is in her mind, day to day... the selfishness could return at any time.

First anniversary separated, first contact of a lawyer by either of us, and on the same day.

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Originally Posted by PTSD
Today is also going to be rough, because I have decided that I am going to contact an attorney for a consultation on my situation with the kids.

I did express yesterday... very nicely (within the same time period of asking for a date) that I felt the fact that she was now claiming so many days as "her days" with the kids, was unfair and a mutual situation had to be agreed upon. She said she was open to doing that... but as I have no idea what is in her mind, day to day... the selfishness could return at any time.

First anniversary separated, first contact of a lawyer by either of us, and on the same day.


I would focus some time on family outings and family activities. (I already mentioned this...did it get through?)

I would start planning family activities on days the kids are with you, when you already know that she is free. Let her know that you and the kids are going to the movies and you would really love it if she would come with you. If not, go anyway with the kids. Plan things that the kids will want to do, where she would feel left out if she doesn't show up.

Can you do this?

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Originally Posted by PTSD
She says her.. "pain"... lasted years, while mine has only been for a couple months and refuses to remember that I tried many times to find out what was wrong for a long time.

So you knew that something was wrong for a long time. Did you ever figure out what was wrong?

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Originally Posted by PTSD
My primary question is this...
As I mentioned above, today is our 21st wedding Anniversary and the first one separated.

I asked yesterday, in person, if she would like to go on a date today... the answer was no.

Should I today acknowledge this day to her in any special way?
All I have done so far is send a text saying "Good Morning", followed by "Happy Anniversary".

My instinct is to add a simple compliment or expression of what these decades have meant to me.[quote=PTSD]

My primary question is this...
As I mentioned above, today is our 21st wedding Anniversary and the first one separated.

I asked yesterday, in person, if she would like to go on a date today... the answer was no.

Should I today acknowledge this day to her in any special way?
All I have done so far is send a text saying "Good Morning", followed by "Happy Anniversary".

My instinct is to add a simple compliment or expression of what these decades have meant to me.Yes. And send a gift of some sort. And perhaps ask again if she would like to do something today. (keeping it light and simple such as lunch or a walk in the park) Maybe give a Coupon good for 1 dinner out, foot rub, movie, etc. at the time of her choosing.



This question frustrates me a bit.

Dr. Harley answered this type of question for a male caller the other day on MB radio and it seems to me that if you were listening, you would've known the answer.

Can you see where I am coming from?




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<< So you knew that something was wrong for a long time. Did you ever figure out what was wrong? >>

The "pain" comment she gave me came months after discovery.
Before discovery... The only indication that something was wrong was a "I am not happy" comment, and at another time, the "I love you but am not in love with you" statement.

I tried... hard, for quite a while, to find out what it was.
I'd ask her every day to come talk and we would figure out what it was.
But, she shut down and did not want to talk about anything.
Both of those comments were well after the affair had already started.

I did not know at the time that these statements meant that an affair has already begun. I didn't even comprehend such a thing was possible.
If I had known, it never would have reached this point.



<< I would start planning family activities on days the kids are with you, when you already know that she is free. Let her know that you and the kids are going to the movies and you would really love it if she would come with you. If not, go anyway with the kids. Plan things that the kids will want to do, where she would feel left out if she doesn't show up.
>>

Absolutely can... when given the opportunity.
I have done some, but I am going to try and ramp it up.
The trouble is she has several days off per week and takes them on each day off.
but i will try even harder. They deserve it too.


<< This question frustrates me a bit. >>

I try to listen to the radio program every day.
I missed one or two recently.

Considering the circumstances I believe I handled today pretty well. Set my mind to deal with her as a woman I did not know very well and was courting. Resulting in her chatting about interests for a while... at least until the messages came to a halt.

* I gave the gifts two days early, so I was able to stretch mention of the anniversary out over three days.

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Wow just got another session of nice chatting.

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I'm glad that you were able to meet her need for conversation. I would keep doing that and separate those chats from any possible expectations. Maybe ask her out at a separate time, with a specific plan. Movie, yogurt, ice cream, walk etc.

In fact, if you do a family activity when YOU have the kids, and ask her out for when SHE has the kids, her mom might be able to hang with the kids. I'm not sure about your kids' ages, but this is a perfect scenario of a good UA time habit that could start now and be sustained. Of course it's a lofty goal but why not try? It might distract her once she finally agrees to go.

I'm glad that you are listening to MBR. Thank you for not being defensive. I got a different impression when you asked about acknowledging the day in a special way. If you get the archives, you might want to search about conversation or disrespectful judgments. Conversation is a need she might let you meet.

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Is this your question?

Radio Clip of PTSD's E-mail


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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It is.
With a small amount of my first letter mixed in.
(the background info)

Even then, things are changing every day.
She is talking more... but it's all text right now.
I've held back on the flattery, and the love expressions and the talk revolves around our days.
It's like were talking to each other as friends we care about.

That is better... but at the same time, as I condition myself to communicate with her as a GF, my mentality and possibly feelings are very, very, slowly following (equalizing, if I may use that term) downward to that level, and it is a bit frightening.

I know if I see her in person the feelings will rocket back up. But as of right now, that is not happening. No face to face, no phone... just texts.

You had asked a question about increasing financial ability...

I had been working a "safety net" part time job for the past year, as I pursued avenues to return to my normal life long career.
I did increase ability by recently taking on yet a second part time job.

I mention this because of a development that has happened within just the last 24 hours.
I have returned from my "safety net" job(s) to my normal lifelong career. (at nearly 5x the pay)

We talked about that for a while during my first day and I had expressed how so may things were going to change as well as possible futures, with such an instant rise in income.
(not change for "us", but in general)

She gave me the "good for you" (not... "good for us"), and congratulations.

She in turn has had a smaller part time job, for 9 years, with a well known corporation... which she was really happy with.

For the past year she has had a second part time that is merely average.

By absolute coincidence, the very night from which I returned to my career, she was laid off from the job she enjoyed most for 9 years.
As a result, she started talking to me instead of the other way around and flooded my phone with texts about her being bummed about her development.

I consoled her, said I am hear to listen, how everything will be okay... ect.
She was also frightened as this job of hers held our family's health insurance. It was another item I consoled her about as now that I have returned to my career, the coverage will be much larger than what she had had.

It ended, without me asking, by her saying she will try to come by before work and hang out for a while, before wishing me a good night.

* I don't really believe it will happen, but it was initiated by her, and not myself.

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Congratulations on the job, PTSD.

I hope that she came by. Sometimes things have to get formal and more careful before they get relaxed again.

Let us know how the evening goes.

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Did she come by?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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As I suspected, it didn't happen.

But... again without my asking... she said she will try to get ready earlier to give herself more time to come today.

Not holding breath, but I suppose I will see what happens.

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Another no show.

Confusing as to why she is the one to say she will be here, but doesn't do it.
All I can think is that she is softer in the evenings, when she has said these things, and becomes hard again in the afternoons.

Another thing that has confused me through all of this is that when she becomes upset she mentions divorce and lawyers.
Yet has never, nor do I foresee her actually taking a step in that direction.

Curious as to why that is and if it has any meaningful hope.

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How's it going PTSD?

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Still very much the same.
I did get her to have an hour long phone talk a couple weeks ago, but it is still me who initiates nearly all contact. Phone conversations have become nearly non-existent and text messages pile up before a response. I am still receiving verbal abuse on a regular basis and refusals to go on any dates.

There are times when she texts in a non aggressive manner, but
it is short and refuses to continue the conversation afterward.

She has also kept the children far beyond the agreed upon days.

As of right now, I continue to remind her that I am in love with her, that she can talk with me, and after all that has happened I would not allow us to be anything else but completely happy. I have also taken chances on playful teasing to describing how well I am doing out here.

I figure I have nothing to lose, and have approached our conversations from all angles, with the exception of any anger or demands.

Most recently, I invited her to a big event this past weekend that nearly all of our friends were also attending. She had to work, but it was an event she would, in years past, take off work for.
I believe she doesn't want to show up, knowing everyone knows what happened. I assured her I would defend and stand right beside her forever.

I am contemplating stopping contact for a while, but that is a scary prospect as from what I have read on the main site, it is not recommended for separated couples to cease contact.

If I do this, I am also unsure of how long to wait before trying again.

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Why are you thinking of ceasing contact? Are you not able to stay in Plan A?


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I actually feel I can stay in Plan A indefinitely.

The trouble is, I have tried everything I can. Approached from many angles, continue to show support, love, and compliments. Continue to invite her places, and express that I do not want to be separated for even another day. That it is silly and unnecessary... on and on, with almost no progress.

* The latest example is that just this past weekend I finally had an opportunity to confront, face to face, the current chief officer of the charity organization. A major individual whom had bashed her publically for over a year and was a large influence in having her removed from the same position which he now holds. I absolutely defended her, won the argument, and caused him to leave the event while I was congratulated by everyone around.

I told her this and the fact that he will no longer be speaking publically about either of us or bad mouthing her again in any way.
This was a major circumstance and are all actions she has wanted taken on my part for a long time, but only came back with a sentence or two and stopped replying the rest of the day.

I offered to talk about the details, yet it resulted in nearly no response.

So, what I have now is daily built up text messages, and although I have described "I don't need... I want her" , that I don't like sending a string of messages when we can just talk, and have shown some large examples of confidence, I think it might seem to appear needy, and I am afraid she is allowing that to happen to continue a thought pattern that I am lesser than her.

I was thinking that perhaps holding off for a couple weeks in the hope she starts initiating the conversation, would show I am not needy and perhaps she might realize that.

I had thought it is yet another angle to pursue, but if that is not a recommended course, I am fine continuing with what I have been doing.

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Dr Harley does not recommend 'holding off' or disengaging or whatever you want to call it. He has Plan A, and then Plan B, and nothing in between.

If you are in Plan A then you would continue to try and fill lovebanks at every possible opportunity.

You don't actually know how your texts are affecting her. Even though she refrains from responding, that does not tell you how they make her feel. It is very possible that each one is making a small love bank deposit even if you do not get a response from her indicating that it is.

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I will keep up with it then.

There might be an effect. This morning I reminded her of the song that makes me think of her. She doesn't realize our phones and her laptop are still synced together and I can see what sites she visits. She looked up the song shortly after I wrote the message.

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Amazing, also this morning, I said I wanted to talk with her today and that I would call at a certain time (like I do most days)and was sure that when the call was not answered I would not get a response.... but she returned it shortly later.

A 25 minute call.
Just casual conversation, but she made the effort to call back.

It started with her sarcastically saying "what do you want?", with my reply as "I want to talk with my beautiful wife", and then it quickly went into regular conversation.

She did at one point, out of nowhere, and very casually said "I am not coming back", but I passed over that and the conversation continued.

I told her I would call again tonight, and she agreed.

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I'm hoping someone might weigh in on this latest circumstance.

Yesterday, after arriving home from work, I decided to call her and suggest that while I am out visiting a friend, we should sit and talk afterward. After an initial "I don't think that is a good idea" reply, and a bit more talking, she agreed.

I arrived at her mothers just after nightfall, and after some initial tension on her part, we ended up sitting on the back porch and talked for about the last 45 minutes, from the over an hour that I was there.

We talked about different leisurely subjects, we laughed several times, told jokes, spoke about the kids schooling, the odd neighbors next door, her mom, physics, math... ect.

At one point the motion sensor lights went out and we were in darkness under the stars still continuing to talk.
During our conversation, in the dark, at different points in the conversation I was able to say things like... I look to the stars and thank God that he allowed me to find you, I no longer want to be separated, that I love her, that I want to wake up next to her again, and that I don't want a divorce, that I am not giving up on her despite all that has happened.

She remained silent in her replies to those statements, despite the one answer of "maybe you should", to my mention of not giving up on her... I said no f'n way am I giving up, and the conversation continued afterward, on changes of subject.

It was really nice... considering the circumstance.

That circumstance being that just after I arrived, in the driveway pulls up my oldest daughter carrying the last of my wife's furniture along with the dressers of the two other children that had been with me this whole time.

Earlier in the day she had said on the telephone that she thinks the children will just live with her and her mom now.
I said we can talk about that at some other time.

(the lawyer had already told me all I can do about it is let her have them for now, raise a scene and cause trouble, or file a petition for custody)

* I am right now going with option #1.

At one point, in the dark, I asked what she would like to talk about and she said the kids.
I again said I don't want to talk about it right now, that all I want right now is for her to be happy.
That I no longer wish to talk about division or negativity.

I invited her to festival this weekend (although I knew she had to work) and when I said "take the day off"... she said she needed the money, at which point I told her to quit and I would support her. (I have said this several times before).
I also suggested other things we could do on her next day off... and she seemed to be open to possibly doing it.

(I also confirmed a couple times that she will do as she claimed and start depositing her paychecks in our joint account again, and get rid of the separate bank account she had opened. She said she would, but I guess I will see what happens)

After about 45 mins of talking, she said she was tired (it was 10:50pm) and it was time for us to say goodnight.

She said "I am not entirely angry that you came" and I replied with the same.
She gave me a half hearted hug, and we touched foreheads.
I told her... "I love you" once more (actually it was "I f***king love you")
She poured me coffee to go, and told me to drive safe.

Is this progress?
It feels like it, but at the same time the kids have apparently moved in to her mothers, right before my eyes, and is something I had not agreed to.

I feel I should call again tonight and express how nice it was for us to spend time together, but am torn between doing so... or let last night resonate a bit longer, before trying.

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Why are the kids moving if you didn't agree to it?


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It seems the kids, both girls... early to mid teens have started identifying/ empathizing wit their mom. A big change and a blow to me, considering the younger one had asked me, only a month or so ago, "can we just move on without mom".

The older girl is currently cold shouldering me and refuses to talk.

Both have now been given rooms at my wife's mothers house.

All three have hinted, from time to time, that once school lets out this would likely happen. It came two days before the last day of school.

The reason my wife gives me is that our house is currently under interior repairs in preparation for selling (which it is), so they will be staying with her and her mom now.
But I know its more than that.

I was afraid it would happen, so I had previously discussed it with the lawyer I spoke to. a As I mentioned, my only choices are to let it happen, cause an argument with my wife, or file a petition for custody.


Every choice possible hurts badly, but my best choice is likely to let them stay there for now and use the time to get the house fully ready for sale. Its really all I can do.

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At the same time...

Four days ago my wife and I had the night talk I spoke of,
likely the best we have had in some time.

The following day she said it was once again fine for me to visit her at work for a while (service station) which she previously said not to come anymore.

* On that night the station was staffed solely by my wife and my oldest daughter,(age 20), and I did stay for an hour or so until the end of their shift.

My wife and I had already planned to spend time together two days from now, but during the discussion that day, we agreed on adding another day in between... yesterday.

I told her I did not want us driving off in different directions anymore... she said we will talk about it another time.

We laughed and joked afterward at the end of her shift. She reminded me, before we drove off, that we will see each other again tomorrow.

But as before, yesterday came and she changed her mind. I was told she will just be going home after work to go to sleep.
That Tuesday (2 days from now) is still fine.

Today she called a couple times and returned my calls within a couple minutes. At one point I said, I no longer want to fall asleep or wake up without her another day and had to clarify my feelings.
She said "She knows and that I have, but we are a long way from that point...yet"
I said "I know that we are".

Today I stopped in at her work again. Originally to get the kids, as they were either going to be home alone or hanging out at her work for 8 hours (Both of the children refused to come with me).

I did use the same visit today to ask my wife what she would like to do, two day from now. A haircut is already involved (which she had already agreed to) and I suggested also ordering out food and watching old kung-fu movies. She said "Yes, maybe".

We also talked about the house, and I used the opportunity to once again briefly state that if we are not to stay there I would like us to find a new and better place... She quickly said "we are never living together again" and the subject changed once more, just as fast.

It is hard to know what is progress and what is not.

The talks and visits in the last few days have been "good", but I am also watching my children move out, and although my wife has assured me, more than once, that we will see each other Tuesday, she very likely could pass it by once more.

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I also still continue with a few "good morning/good night" and various texts, daily, to tell her how beautiful she is and that she is the love of my life.

* Sometimes romantic, other times playful.

** On the phone, I keep the discussion on other things, while occasionally mentioning a compliment or special feeling.

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When was the last time you spoke with your lawyer?


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I have had one in office consultation. It was three weeks ago.

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She showed today, waiting when I got home.

We spent 3 and a half hours together, side by side, watching a movie and eating dinner. She let me into her personal space, touching, smiled, let me take a few photos for my phone, said she was "not unhappy" to be there. Agreed it was nice to spend time together... and she came up with the idea to do it again tomorrow.

I was able to say, a couple times, that my love transcends what has occurred and that when she is ready we can talk about what happened. That she can trust me.
She believed me, but didn't want to talk about it.

I was even able to touch on the subjects of love making and falling asleep together.
Both of which she said she is not yet ready for, which I expected, but she listened rather than getting upset about the subjects, or saying it is never going to happen.

She grunted a few times while talking and made it know a few times when the touching was too long. But those were the only couple lows... other than leaving before I wanted it to be over.

But, 3 and a half hours is the best we have done in a long time.

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Just keep plan A'ing.

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We spent another three hours together again yesterday evening. Same situation... dinner/ movie/ couch. I was able to make several deposits. More expressions of love, some touching, allowed me to kiss her cheek and head at different points, and the hugs (plural) were almost full on and lasted several seconds each. I again talked, more than once, about not wanting to be separated (she sighed, but said nothing about not wanting to return). We discussed parenting our children together rather than separately, and she also agreed (so far) to help get the house ready for sale/ rent.

* there were some other various nice moments as well.


I have been wondering about the checklist.
Other than the initial exposure on my part, and us very recently spending some leisure time together, I have gotten nothing to check off the list. I casually mention these items to her (in various ways), and she listens, but as of yet has accomplished none of them.

It seems I am doing an end-around and hoping to circle back to the list at some point in the future. I believe my first struggle should be to get us away from being separated and back together in the same home. I think if I were to push the list hard at this time, it will drive her further away. I am resolved to have this list completed, but I think I should continue to mention these items casually and cautiously, rather than having them be the first items completed.

Does this sound reasonable?

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It doesn't seem logical to ask her to do anything from the list if she feels that you are firmly separated and the marriage is over. Unless she goes back to the marriage, she won't do any of the things on the list.


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Is it possible to go overboard on Plan A?

If given the opportunity, I would talk to her all day, non stop.
Right now I send several texts a day, tell her I love her a few times each day, wish her goodnight and good morning, and to have a good day at work.

I call, not always successfully, a few times each day.

I also mix in romantic statements within my various texts.

Most often, she reads them, and then talks about other subjects.

But she has a said, a few various times when aggressive, that she doesn't want me to send the romantic stuff.
I tell her it is because my love for her is so strong and that I want to tell her I love her, all the time.

She has at one point, said... "That's fine, but you don't need to send the other crap".

(The other "crap" is in fact really how I feel, and not a gimmick)

The times she has told me to stop I would settle down for a while and pick it up again a day or two later.

She has said stop a couple times, but as I keep going with the plan, she seems to answer the phone more often, we spent those times together recently and she has been talking longer.

I "think" she actually likes it, but doesn't want to acknowledge it. But I can't be sure.

So, I am also unsure if expressions can be overdone.


Also...
A few subjects I am wanting to talk to her about, but am not sure if it is a good idea:

- I have not mentioned the affair since shortly after she sent the OM the "goodbye/ it's over" letter, 8 weeks ago.
(which also included the words "never regret" and "I'll always treasure")

The OM's spouse believes there has been no contact, but I am contemplating asking my wife about it again to see what she has to say about maintaining no contact.

- I would also like to more often bring up the fact that I desire us to live together again, perhaps focusing on that more often than I have.
I often say that I don't want to fall asleep or wake up without her even another day, so she knows very well I do want us back living together, but I do not want the subject to drop.

- I have started to mention that I would like her to change her work schedule, or quit altogether and let me provide everything instead.

* I have told her I would like to show her life as it is intended. (Which is not cooped up in a house and simply traveling to work and back)
I send her a photo or two, and/ or a description of what is happening, each time I am out visiting friends or attending an event.

Right now we work different shifts, and hers also involves working weekends.
This makes it very difficult to spend time together, even during the times she might be open to doing so.
(I do ask her to spend time, and give ideas on what we might do... nearly every day)

Would continuing with these ideas be recommended?

It would mean risking more opportunities for her to become irritated, but I am feeling that simply talking about non important subjects, or falling back on the same type of circle conversation is not making as much progress as there might be potential to do so.

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I ask advice on asking her about maintaining no contact, because I found some 000-0000-#### text numbers, and short phone calls, placed and received 4 days ago... and again just an hour ago.

From what I understand, calls and texts from 000 numbers are international and/ or skype numbers.

The other BS says a few of those call/text times do correspond with opportunities the OM might have had to make them.


* My wife and I had a couple decent talks today and she said we will hang out for another movie and dinner, tomorrow.

She actually blurted out a bargain... "If you do "this", Ill come tomorrow for the movie/ dinner we talked about"

I didn't ask for, or want it to be phrased as a compromise/ trade off, but agreed.

She said she is not ready to move away from being separated.
But, hints at it happening at some point.
She said she is back to "liking" me and that she did not for a long time, that there is a difference between liking and loving, and that she was much less "in love" with me, for years."


She also agreed (so far) to talk to her manager and request a move away from working weekends.
She said "It doesn't mean we're going to spend every weekend together".

I said: "Several of them"

Her: "okay"

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Perhaps someone can give me some advice on what I should do next...

I was stabbed in the heart 3 times today.
It went from good to bad in an instant.

I sent my wife a text this morning that read "good morning" and attached a photo of the sunrise outside the skyscraper I was working in.
She sent nice messages back describing how cool the photo was and that It was a great view.

At the end of the exchange, I playfully and literally wrote...
*[insert text here about how much you love your wife]

She replied "bah" ... and I left it there.

I called her at lunch later and suddenly she was angry upon even first picking up the phone. I talked about the time we had planned together for tomorrow (we agreed to check out a very close to home, local pub/ billiard place we had never been to) and perhaps we could go downtown on one the next few weekends.

She started treating me terribly and at one point I calmly asked "Do you respect me?"... Opposite of what I hoped the answer was, she said "no". I asked why that is, and the answer was "Because you are selfish"
I asked what it was that I might have done...

She says, [stab number one]...
"Because of the extent you went out of your way to make sure me and OM / AP can't talk to each other again."

She apparently is still holding resentment from the exposure.
*I had thought she was beyond that by the progress that has been made in the last few weeks.

I said that everything I do is for us and our children. That she is the love of my life.
She hung up and wouldn't answer the return call.

I sent a few texts explaining that all I do and all I say and all I show, is for us.
That having us together and healthy is the most important thing in my life.

Later, after work, I was to pick up my youngest daughter from the workplace of my wife and and oldest daughter (they work the service station together on some nights) and I was to have have her for the next 5 days.

* We tried the same thing a few days ago, while staying at my parents, and my daughter
(age 13) ended up calling her mom after one day and had her pick her up in the driveway after I left for work (without telling her grandmother she was leaving).

They both (my wife and daughter) agreed it would be changed to today, but as has become common, I got a text from my daughter, one hour before I was to get her, saying she did not want to come.
I asked why and got a brief answer, and the comment... "because I said so".

I called my wife (who was standing right next to her) and asked her to please explain to our 13 year old that she is not allowed to say No to her father or make demands, especially after making plans.
My wife had little interest in helping me and said "She doesn't want to go".
[stab number 2]

My daughter said she would come in a few days and when I tried to verify that it would be for 5 days, she did not answer.

(She now, as our two youngest have done several times in the last few months, will be sitting around a gas station for the next 7 hours)


[Stab 3]
I called my wife to explain that I wanted no one upset, and let her know I agreed with our daughter to wait a few days. That it will likely be for 5 days, like talked about.

My wife asked me hold on while she got her keys and went outside.

The next words I hear from her:

"I am going to say this once. We are not friends, we are not buddies, we are not pals.
I don't want you. I don't want to be married".

I say again that she is lashing out at me and ask why she is upset with me today... She says "You know why".
(I'm assuming she means the comment from earlier about how I broke up the affair)

I tell her she is the only woman I have and will love and that everything I say and do is to be the best husband and father. That I want nothing more than for all of us to be involved in each others lives... the reply was...
"I don't want you in my life. It is too little, too late"
( this is her go to phrase when angry )

I said I am sorry you are upset, then reminded her I was calling about our daughter.
I also again promised my wife that our time together tomorrow would be great.

"I'm not doing any of that" she says. "I'm done". "We are only married on paper"
"I want you to stop all of it".
"I don't have the time or patience to deal with you right now".

hung up.


What should I do?
Wait?
Try calling later?
Change my approach?

This morning I was looking forward to what would have been our first time together (since discovery) out of the house. To a few hours later having some of the worst comments I have heard in the pat reappear, without cause.

Today has been pretty scary.

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My guess is the OM stopped by her work.

Email yourself the text messages.

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You need to accept the fact that you are not going to talk your WW into falling in love with you. By trying to do just that, you are pushing her further into withdrawal.

You need to allow pleasant exchanges to exist without pushing on so hard. You are trying to build up your balance in her love bank. You won't do that by declarations of your love for her; you will do it by demonstrations of your love. Do you understand the difference?


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Why do you ask her these questions? My goodness.

You need stop trying to negotiate with her for love. By the way, her atrocious behavior doesn't merit your love either.

You are taking one step forward and three back. And she is still deep in the fog. I am wondering if she and her AP have had contact.

Regardless, man up. Get out of negotiating for love mode and get into courtship mode. You are auditioning for the part of husband, so start doing the things that men in courtship do, and stop doing the things that men who lose in courtship do.

Make yourself look good.
Get fit
Iron our cloths and shine your shoes.
Do the things that she used to love about you. But don't expect her to react. Just do them.
Be a great and a strong father.
Cheer up, but don't feign it or put on airs.
Carry on with confidence and strength, but with genuine humility.
Have self-respect and don't mope or fret.

Do NOT suffocate her. Give her space...a lot of it.

Plan A requires you to be assertive about being the best you, but not trying to hard to accelerate or manipulate her feelings towards you. Let he see you gradually changing and becoming a better man.

There are many ways you can show her you care and love her. But do it gently and without fanfare.

Change for the girls. Change for your wife. Change for yourself.

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Thanks.
The fret part is the one I have the most trouble with and throws me off track. I am still in the shock of discovering that she was so far removed from the personality and emotions she portrayed, that it is hard to find a current level path.

I become reactive upon the negative episodes.
Not outwardly, but internally.

It's the negatives that carry the heaviest perception of being permanent, at the time they are happening.
But that is getting better.
I am learning that individual episodes, good or bad, do not equal a permanence in that direction.

Within a couple phone calls yesterday, everything was back on. Like the episode had never happened. We did all we talked of doing and then some. The longest and most productive time together yet.

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Originally Posted by mrEureka
You need to accept the fact that you are not going to talk your WW into falling in love with you. By trying to do just that, you are pushing her further into withdrawal.

You need to allow pleasant exchanges to exist without pushing on so hard. You are trying to build up your balance in her love bank. You won't do that by declarations of your love for her; you will do it by demonstrations of your love. Do you understand the difference?

I do.
But right now, because she has separated from me, I feel I will not get opportunities for "...demonstrations of your love", without constantly working to gain time together.
Because we are separated, I am relying heavily on words. Most are written in texts, which leads to some phone calls, which has led recently to time together.
The semi-heavy, and sometimes romantic texting has lead to a few angry outbursts on her part, but seems to have proved to be the most productive path.

Of course I very well could be misconstruing what is and is not working.


I am also a bit confused as my last radio show advice was to ask her for a date at least every other day. A few posts back it was suggested I keep up with the messages, even if many go unanswered, because I don't really know what type of effect they are having.

Now it is suggested that I give her lots of space
(which I believe means laying off on the attempts at communication).

This is a bit scary because I am also struggling with the fear/ belief that if a day goes by in which we do not have any communication whatsoever, might result in another small thread broken and another day she conditions herself to live without me.

Is tough to judge by the hour.
Within just the last three days she went from not wanting anything to do with me (phone) to us spending 4.5 hours going out together (in person), to not answering texts and getting briefly upset yesterday (phone), to (in person) saying we will spend time together again (the day after today,) to once again not replying the few messages and a phone call I tried today.
(And in the last couple days I have refrained from writing how much I love and miss her)

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Originally Posted by PTSD
I am also a bit confused as my last radio show advice was to ask her for a date at least every other day. A few posts back it was suggested I keep up with the messages, even if many go unanswered, because I don't really know what type of effect they are having.

Now it is suggested that I give her lots of space
(which I believe means laying off on the attempts at communication).

This is a bit scary because I am also struggling with the fear/ belief that if a day goes by in which we do not have any communication whatsoever, might result in another small thread broken and another day she conditions herself to live without me.
You need to ALWAYS take the advice that Dr Harley gave you.

Not everyone has read your thread right through. Your thread is very long, and people don't always have the time to read back several pages before responding to your latest post. They do not realise that you have been given advice directly from Dr Harley - but you DO know this. Why would you question his advice?

You've been here almost every day, sometimes several times a day, second-guessing your every move and not maintaining a consistent line. You've been told what Plan A involves - and when your wife has moved out and you want to win her back, it does not involve giving her "lots of space".

You are your own worst enemy in the way that you take every change of mood from your wife, and every smile and every frown, as meaning that she has had a change of heart and you need to change your strategy. You don't. Do Plan A the way Dr Harley told you to do it.


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Thank you SugarCane. I'll keep at it while trying not to smother.


I do have another question...

I found out today that she is following and receiving notifications of updates from the OM's Instagram account.

He also has several photos on Instagram of him and my wife together.

The notification also states she and the OM are FB friends.

I know he deactivated his FB accounts, and I can find no trace on FB of the name he uses on Instagram. I believe FB allows users to hide their accounts from selected individuals. The OM's spouse says she believes he doesn't have a FB account any longer, but Instagram says otherwise. So I am believing he is hiding a FB account not only from me, but from his wife as well.

I have just told the OM's wife what I discovered.

My questions are... Can I do anything else about this?
I would like to report his page, and post comments on the photos. But I have a feeling the comments will be removed and I will be blocked from the OM's Instagram account.

I might also be able to access my wife's FB, but it will definitely send her a notification that someone in our town has accessed her account. So I have not tried.

Should I ask my wife if she is still following the OM online? Or tell her that I know?

I am also thinking of asking my 20 year old daughter to ask her mom to stop following the OM online. Is this a bad idea?

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I am almost considering another round of exposure letters, at least a message to his father, asking for help by pointing out the Instagram account and the photos.

* FB messenger says the previous exposure messages were "read", but the OM's father never did reply to the two previous messages.
(one exposing the affair, and the other asking for help including my contact information)

I am considering this because although the OM's BS shows concern about her marriage, she doesn't seem to make demands on change.
She has gotten her WH to show her his skype account, but every other electronic device (and chat program), including phone and laptop are still locked from her.

She hasn't made him change his email address(es), phone number, or remove my wife as a contact on his phone.

(I did very recently give the other BS the recovery checklist, to bring her to speed on judging progress)

He has remained living in their spare back room of the house and she is set on "giving him space".
The other BS seems more concerned with helping...him... through... His.. therapy sessions and "sadness".

Other BS hasn't changed routines either. For example, still takes showers at the same times she did when he snuck calls,
lets him continue going on his outdoor "walks", which he used to sneak calls. Doesn't check on him during his work lunch, where he again snuck calls and messages to my wife.

* Months ago, the other BS asked me to stop contacting her WH becauses it causes him more depression and doesn't help her on that end.
(This happened after my OM confrontation letters were sent)

** But, I just found out yesterday from my wife that the other BS has contated her very recently to ask if she was still talking to her husband.

The other BS did not inform me she was doing this.
(The other BS also gave me up as the person who initiated the conversation/warning that contact might still be happening or perhaps attempts were made)

So, I am leaning to adding comments to the many instagram photos on the OM's account.
( Something along the line of... "Remove these photos of you and my wife! You know exactly why!" )

Of course my WW will get an email notification that there has been activity on the OM's Instagram account and see the comments.
So, I am torn between doing so or leaving it alone.

To the other BS's credit, she had previously told me months ago that her WH has been told if he gets on another airplane to the USA, he is out.
She has also cross referenced the times of the recent "000-000" phone numbers (I mentioned above).
Unfortunatly, half of them are confirmed opportunities that the OM could have called.
(Again, because the other BS has not changed her daily routine)

But, there has been no advancement on that end otherwise.

I have asked the other BS for an update on her stating that she will talk to her WH about blocking my WW from his instagram.
("Blocking"... not removing the photos. I have also asked for clarification on that)

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At the same time, my wife and I spent nearly the whole day together yesterday, with our two youngest children, attending a charity function and marching in a holiday parade (arriving to the event separately), surrounded by many mutual friends (whom are also members of our organization).

This was my wife's first time interacting with our friends, since my discovery and exposure.

* Nearly everyone in attendance, dozens of them, know what has happened.

** Yet none of those whom are closest to her (some of the very first I exposed to) were willing to hold her accountable. They spoke with her as if nothing was amiss.
My WW was able to interact with nearly everyone as if nothing was wrong.

Some did come to me separately and express they were sorry, but my wife experienced or heard none of this.

While together, my wife went up and down from laughing, joking and taliking with me, to a small outburst against me, in front of others (loudly accusing me of "following her around" when I came up to talk with her at one point), to again lauging and talking, to mentioning that I will be recieving divorce papers soon (I believe it will not happen but I can not really know)... to again laughing, joking and talking.

The event ended with me asking her if we will spend time together (eyes swelling, while holding back tears) and her saying "I will try, but I can't promise anything".

Shortly after, she drove away with our children to an out of state holiday spot for the next few days, for which I was told I am not invited to go with.

We were able to talk about quite a few things regarding us and the condition we are in, and I believe I was able to make several deposits, but like nearly all of our interactions... they start with absolute uncertainty, bounce up and down (on her part), then end with absolute uncertainty.

Later that night, I texted to ask if they arrived safely, that I had fun, that I love her and our children and wished her a goodnight. She replied by stating everyone had a good time, they did arrive safely and also said goodnight back to me.

(My messages spoke of love and family, while hers were short and straight to the point)

But again today, she is back to ignoring the couple messages I have sent and the one phone call I tried to make.

It is mentally hard to deal with on a daily basis and I still have at least one long or short breakdown per day.

* The scary part now is that Dr. Harley mentioned on the program that if after 3 months of non-substantial progress (following my wife's "semi"-no contact letter to the OM), I find we are still in basically the same position, he would be concerned.
That date is 3 weeks from today.

Yesterday might be considered progress, but she has blown off the last two times we agreed to spend time together, and was going to attend this event (while bringing our children with), with or without me.

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I'm hoping someone might be able to give some advice on my questions above.

I'm trying to remove triggers that may cause her to seek out contact with the OM.

-------
The last few days have been pretty bad.
Since the charity event 5 days ago she has taken only 3 calls and replied to none of the texts.
Two of the calls accepted were a few days ago (same day) in which she became angry quickly and hung up on me.

I've continued to text her as I have been. A mixture of funny jokes, suggesting little things we might do together, inviting her to activities our friends are planning as a group, and talking about wanting to spend my life with her and building a marriage in which she would be completely happy.

All of it simply ignored with no response.

She accepted the third call yesterday in which she was pleasant. She said the jokes were funny, but also said she wished I would stop texting her. We then talked for a minute normally about the trip she just had with our children and another random subject. I again asked if she was planning to alter her work schedule to free up weekends so we could start spending weekends together (something she has agreed to, then not agreed to, several times). Her answer was... "I don't know". This is her answer to nearly every question I ever ask. We talked normally for another minute, before she said she was getting off the phone now. I asked her if she would call me later and she said "I will call you later", I showed excitement in that answer before saying goodbye.... her call back didn't happen.

I texted another joke latter in the evening and also let her know I would rather spend time with my wife than my guy friends. I also said I was so tired of us not being under the same roof.

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Perhaps the last few posts were too long?

I tried to break the questions up with a bit of relavant info.

I haven't yet acted on anything Ive asked about above.

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Originally Posted by PTSD
Perhaps the last few posts were too long?

I tried to break the questions up with a bit of relavant info.

I haven't yet acted on anything Ive asked about above.
Hi PTSD,
I haven't read your whole thread but do see you have a lot of questions.
Can you send a quick follow up with Dr Harley on them? It seems like some of the things he has asked you to do is a little different and maybe that is keeping others from commenting.

Sorry I don't have any advise other than that!


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"I was not delivered unto this world in defeat, nor does failure course in my veins. I am not a sheep waiting to be prodded by my shepherd. I am a lion and I refuse to talk, to walk, to sleep with the sheep. I will hear not those who weep and complain, for their disease is contagious. Let them join the sheep. The slaughterhouse of failure is not my destiny.
I will persist until I succeed." Og Mandino
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I have been trying to compose another letter, but as I add info as to why I am asking the questions, it is becoming lengthy. (Trying to re-write it shorter).

Until then, would someone give me advice on one of the questions above? This is something I am wishing to do something about, today...


I found out my W is following and receiving notifications of updates from the OM's "Instagram" photo account.

He also has several photos on Instagram of him and my wife together.

The notification also states she and the OM are FB friends.

I know he deactivated his FB accounts, and I can find no trace on FB of the name he uses on Instagram. I believe FB allows users to hide their accounts from selected individuals. The OM's spouse says he deactivated his FB accounts, but Instagram says he and my wife are still "friends".

(perhaps deactivated, but not deleted FB accounts still show "friends" ??)

I also might be that he is hiding a FB account not only from me, but from his wife as well.

I have told the OM's wife what I discovered.


My questions are...

Can I do anything else about this?
I would like to report his Instagram page, and post comments on the photos. But I have a feeling the comments will be removed and I will be blocked from the OM's Instagram account.

I might also be able to access my wife's FB, but it will definitely send her a notification that someone in our town has accessed her account. So I have not tried.

Should I ask my wife if she is still following the OM online?
Or tell her that I know?

I am almost considering another round of exposure letters.
At least a message to OM's father and sister, asking for help by pointing out the Instagram account and the photos.

* FB messenger says the previous exposure messages were "read", but the OM's father never did reply to the two previous messages.
(one exposing the affair, and the other asking for help including my contact information)

* The OM's sister accepted my friend request, and I wrote to her afterward, so I know she received my letters... but also did not reply. She in fact still has me listed as a FB friend.

I am considering this because although the OM's BS shows concern about her marriage, she doesn't seem to make demands on change.
She has gotten her WH to show her his Skype account, but every other electronic device (and chat program), including phone and laptop are still locked from her.

She hasn't made him change his email address(es), phone number, or remove my wife as a contact on his phone.

(I did recently give the other BS the recovery checklists, to bring her to speed on judging progress)

He has remained living in their spare back room of the house and she is set on "giving him space".
The other BS seems more concerned with helping...him... through... His.. therapy sessions and "sadness".

Other BS hasn't changed routines either. For example, still takes showers at the same times she did when he snuck calls,
lets him continue going on his outdoor "walks", which he used to sneak calls. Doesn't check on him during his work lunch, where he again snuck calls and messages to my wife.

* Months ago, the other BS asked me to stop contacting her WH because it causes him more depression and doesn't help her on that end.
(This happened after my original OM confrontation letters were sent)

So, I am leaning to adding comments to the many Instagram photos on the OM's account.

( Something along the line of... "Remove these photos of you and my wife! You know exactly why!" )

Of course my WW will get an email notification that there has been activity on the OM's Instagram account and see the comments.
So, I am torn between doing so or leaving it alone.

It may also result in severing contact with the other BS as she asked me not to cause him further grief.

To the other BS's credit, she had previously told me months ago that her WH has been told if he gets on another airplane to the USA, he is out.
She has also cross referenced the times of the recent "000-000" phone numbers (I mentioned above).
Unfortunately, half of them are confirmed opportunities that the OM could have called.
(Again, because the other BS has not changed her daily routine)

But, there has been no advancement on that end otherwise.

I have asked the other BS for an update on her stating that she will talk to her WH about blocking my WW from his Instagram.

("Blocking"... Not actually removing the photos)

As of yet it appears neither have been done.

Should I do this?
Should I run it by the other BS first?
I would like to keep making it very difficult for him to keep pining after my wife.

And, should I try to access my wife's FB account?... knowing she will find out?

Thank you everyone.

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Have you told her that it hurts you immensely, for her to continue her affair with OM?


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I have told her this once before.
I was told in this thread that because she separated it doesn't have the effect it should.

There have been other times that she has seen me upset and the reply has been "I am sorry this is hurting you".
(in regard to being separated and her saying it is over)


edit:

If anyone reads this thread, you will remember the OM lives half way around the world.
There is virtually no chance of him coming to the USA again.

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Still not sure what to do about the Instagram photos.


Would it be a detriment to tell her about the MB program?

Perhaps not by name, but to let her know there is a program I have found that shares the same beliefs about creating, improving and healing marriages, and ask if she would like to learn about it?

I'm nearly positive she will not be willing to participate, but perhaps talking about my efforts and desire to heal, and letting her know there is help out there that I have taken the time to learn about, perhaps it will function as a deposit?

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I have written another letter to the radio show, it should air within the next few days. I've included most of the questions that I have asked recently.

I have also gone and talked to my wife's mother again to bring her up to date on what is/ has been happening.

--------

What I did not ask in my letter to the program, and am hoping someone might give their advice on, is the question just above about mentioning the program ?

Another is...
I am still able to access our family's cell phone plan and records. My wife is listed as the primary account holder, but it is one of the few websites that she has not changed her password on and does in fact know I am able to see this information.

I discovered yesterday that she is sending 100's of texts back and forth to a number I have never seen before. This is a number in a neighboring town, not from the OM, whom lives overseas.

Best I can gather (but not 100 percent certain), by searching the number online, is that this is a male coworker. The texts have been literally one or more per minute, for several days.
They are at all hours of the day and night, including early AM, like 1 to 3 in the morning. I tried calling this number, while masking my number as private, but it goes to a generic "leave a message" recording, with no name expressed.
(likely the person did not pick up because my incoming call would have showed as a "private number")

The incoming texts are heavier than her outgoing texts but she is regularly replying and continuing the conversation. Sometimes it drops to a 1 to 1 ratio.

Should I ask her about this?
Is there anything else I can/ should do?

She does know I can still access the phone carrier's website and our family phone records. There is a possibility however that if I do ask, she will change the password to the carrier's website and/or shut my phone off.

* Our phones are still synced, and I am able to see the websites she visits, and her gps location 24 hours a day.

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Originally Posted by PTSD
What I did not ask in my letter to the program, and am hoping someone might give their advice on, is the question just above about mentioning the program ?

Another is...
I am still able to access our family's cell phone plan and records. My wife is listed as the primary account holder, but it is one of the few websites that she has not changed her password on and does in fact know I am able to see this information.

I discovered yesterday that she is sending 100's of texts back and forth to a number I have never seen before. This is a number in a neighboring town, not from the OM, whom lives overseas.

Best I can gather (but not 100 percent certain), by searching the number online, is that this is a male coworker. The texts have been literally one or more per minute, for several days.
They are at all hours of the day and night, including early AM, like 1 to 3 in the morning. I tried calling this number, while masking my number as private, but it goes to a generic "leave a message" recording, with no name expressed.
(likely the person did not pick up because my incoming call would have showed as a "private number")

The incoming texts are heavier than her outgoing texts but she is regularly replying and continuing the conversation. Sometimes it drops to a 1 to 1 ratio.

Should I ask her about this?
Is there anything else I can/ should do?

She does know I can still access the phone carrier's website and our family phone records. There is a possibility however that if I do ask, she will change the password to the carrier's website and/or shut my phone off.

* Our phones are still synced, and I am able to see the websites she visits, and her gps location 24 hours a day.

These two questions have now jumped to the top of my concerns.
I had thought I was sending too many texts at about 8 to 10 per day, and have thought about stopping for several days, as not to seem needy (and she has stopped replying to them).

Checking the phone records today, I've discovered that she has sent back and forth 1400 texts to that mystery number, in just the past 4 days.

I am very scared she is jumping right into another affair.
I have printed out the phone records that show instances of the texting (53 pages), but have no idea what to do next.

I have thought about handing them to her mother. Perhaps she will ask her daughter about it.
Or leaving them on her car at work with a note asking her to please stop.
Or maybe sending her a message or an email, explaining that I know what she is doing, asking who is at the other end of the text, and that it needs to end.

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* Recently, she had told me about buying paintball tickets.
It is something we talked of doing, after discovery. I had been coming up with ideas of spending recreational time together and this was something she seemed interested in.
She had refused, but informed me some weeks ago (after our time at the mall) that she bought six pairs of tickets and thought it would make me happy if we were to do this together.
I told her she was wonderful for doing this and that It would be a great time. She said she did not want to start right away but that we could in the fall.

But, she has since stopped answering my calls, stopped replying to texts, and has now started sending all of these messages to an unknown person at an unknown number.

I don't want to blow the possibility of this time together from happening by doing something rash, although I am frightened she has already cancelled it in her mind.

Perhaps the best way to respond to the discovery of these texts is to write a love letter (through email so that I may check that it was read).
I have just written a letter. It describes memories of the past, my passion and love today, and if she will allow me to, a building of a wonderful life and marriage. The desire for her to return with our children, and what to expect in our and our family's future.

I am working on sending it. What I am unsure of is if I should explain a little about what I will need from her in return, or if I send those things in a following letter.

Perhaps a following letter will be best(?)
I would like to, and feel I need to express that I need to know her contact with the OM has truly ended, and that I need her to stop texting this other person, whomever it may be.
Perhaps I can mention the MB program and invite her to read and/or start with a specific page. Perhaps mention that we can start a thread together.
If I do mention the program and the website, I will be able to check and find if she actually visits.

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Have you researched the new number? Who does it belong to? What does the spyware tell you?


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I have no spyware.
Because we are separated, I have no opportunity to install any.
I would not be able to anyway as her phone is locked with thumbprint access.
What I have are synced phones which allow me to see the websites she visits and monitor her movements by GPS.

I have access to the phone providers website, which allowed me to discover the texts. I also have access to her, at one time, primary email account. She has since created several more email accounts allowing her "primary" account to be filled with 10's of thousands of spam messages.
She now uses other accounts which I can not access as her methods of communication.
I could try to guess my way into them but they are @gmail accounts and send a notification text to her when accessed.
The email account I am most concerned about is one she created using her middle and maiden name as the address. Apparently to conceal her identity.
I had asked her about this account and the reply was... "that is the account I want you to stay the h*ll away from."

As far as researching the phone number of the texts, I found a possible match with a name that I "believe" is the same as someone she works with. This name is listed as residing in a neighboring town, so I am almost certain It is correct.

I tried calling a couple times, while hiding my number as private, but it is a generic "leave a message" recording.

I am frightened she is jumping right into another affair.
Over 1400 texts in 4 days, at all hours of the day and night.

At the same time, she has stopped replying to my messages and phone calls for over a week, with the exception of a couple sentences. I have continued to send 8 or so per day, trying to engage a reply, and try calling once or twice per day with no reply or get cut off after a couple rings.
I have not tried to communicate with her today, with the exception of the emailed love letter described above. I thought I would wait until I confirm she has read it before I try to resume conversation.
It could be days as she has allowed the account to basically become a trash heap, and does not regularly check it.
* I did think about sending it to one of her other accounts, including the one I have just mentioned that she told me she wanted to stay away from.

** I am unsure as to send a follow up letter explaining that I need to be reassured her affair is over and that she is not pursuing yet another man. I am also unsure if I should mention MB and invite her to join me in learning about it.

In my messages I am constantly coming up with new ideas of spending time together, but am really getting nowhere with it.
Only two occasions in July, totaling about 12 hours.

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It's driving me a bit crazy and causing anxiety. She was at it again all day today. She is talking to this number, very likely another man, as I type this. I am almost willing to directly ask who she is talking to so often and directly calling the number without hiding whom is calling and outright confronting them.

What I did do was send a message hours ago stating that I hope her day was going okay and asked if she would like to get coffee or something to eat tomorrow as we both have off work.

When that got no answer, I sent the second text of the day, about an hour ago, with this...
(borrowing ideas from another thread)

"It bothers me that you have a wall up. It hurts to think you might be filling conversation with another. I would very much love to spend some time with you and give you the center of my attention. To concentrate on pleasant activities and resolve troubles".

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So did you do research on this guy? Is he married? Have you researched to see if he is on social media?


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I have had little luck finding him on social media, but I believe I have found people around him.
I'm not 100 percent positive.

Is this a topic that should go to the "Investigate" forum?
Or, should I post what I have found here?

I'm not sure that I am on the right track and I have forks in the road. I would very much appreciate help and opinions on how to proceed on what will now be my second investigation.

I also have the lingering questions on if I should send a follow up letter to my WW about texting others and/or inviting her to MB.

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Originally Posted by PTSD
It's driving me a bit crazy and causing anxiety. She was at it again all day today. She is talking to this number, very likely another man, as I type this. I am almost willing to directly ask who she is talking to so often and directly calling the number without hiding whom is calling and outright confronting them.

What I did do was send a message hours ago stating that I hope her day was going okay and asked if she would like to get coffee or something to eat tomorrow as we both have off work.

When that got no answer, I sent the second text of the day, about an hour ago, with this...
(borrowing ideas from another thread)

"It bothers me that you have a wall up. It hurts to think you might be filling conversation with another. I would very much love to spend some time with you and give you the center of my attention. To concentrate on pleasant activities and resolve troubles".

I think you should keep your outreach and requests for conversation light and not make DJs like "you have a wall up". These will only get her defences up.

This may just be me, but the wording of "I would love to give you the center of my attention" is likely to turn off someone who is not in love with you. I would receive it as smothering. Just keep it light - "hope your day is going well/saw this and thought of you/did you see the news about XYZ?"

ETA: is she an animal lover? There are a gazillion adorable/hilarious GIFS and photos on the internet of puppies/kittens whatever. I bet those would bring a smile to her face. Again, if she likes animals.

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Thank you.

This is so hard to know what is right and wrong to say.
We have been married for over 21 years and together for over 23.
Through this entire ordeal I have only gotten tiny bits of information from her, some which do not make sense, as to why any of this even exists. I struggle on what to say to make progress or drive it away.

edit:

She has not read the love letter I sent yesterday.
It spoke of how beautiful she looked during our children's birth.
Our wedding.
My promise to create happiness.
That our marriage is worth fighting for and saving.
Baby steps.
Asking to arrange time together.
Fun.
Future.
...ect.

Is such a letter too much?

I do see it recommended quite often.
Should I remove it (before she reads it)?

The words which are written are all very true and with love, and it seemed the first thing I should do to fight back against the discovery of 1400 text messages in 4 days, and possibly an immediate back to back affair.

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I'm concerned the radio advice last given (three months ago), of asking her to spend time together, at least every other day, and treat her wonderfully and there is a possibility of seeing light at the end of three months... combined with the advice here in the thread of continuing to text... (its really all I have right now) has caused her to basically break contact.

Perhaps she took it as pushing or smothering.
She would bounce up and down with agreeing to do so, to blowing off the scheduled time as it drew near... then just stopped communication.

We have done and do much better in person, and I have mentioned this to her, but getting her to agree to spend time together, or now even respond, is very hard.

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Originally Posted by PTSD
Thank you.

This is so hard to know what is right and wrong to say.
We have been married for over 21 years and together for over 23.
Through this entire ordeal I have only gotten tiny bits of information from her, some which do not make sense, as to why any of this even exists. I struggle on what to say to make progress or drive it away.

edit:

She has not read the love letter I sent yesterday.
It spoke of how beautiful she looked during our children's birth.
Our wedding.
My promise to create happiness.
That our marriage is worth fighting for and saving.
Baby steps.
Asking to arrange time together.
Fun.
Future.
...ect.

Is such a letter too much?

I do see it recommended quite often.
Should I remove it (before she reads it)?

The words which are written are all very true and with love, and it seemed the first thing I should do to fight back against the discovery of 1400 text messages in 4 days, and possibly an immediate back to back affair.

Has she said anything to you about such letters in the past? You don't want to be expressing yourself in ways that will not make deposits AND will annoy her to boot.

Again, this depends on where her mind is at but I think you should be careful with OTT statements even if they are, undoubtedly, motivated by sincere love and affection. Try and be a fun person to be around, not overly intense and emotional.


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This would be my first such letter.
I have made statements in the past of each of the tings I've talked about, but never compiled in a full length letter.

I have removed it from her inbox. I'll have to think about it some more, before I possibly resend it/ move it back.

I am now down to only a couple/ few unanswered texts per day.
I am not sure how to fight back against over 300+ per day by this new OM.

-----------

I researched the new OM whom she has been texting with.
He is not on any social media that I can find, but there are apparent relatives who are. According to spokeo.com he is married. But if I remember what has been said in the past about my WW's co-workers, this person is not his wife, but the ex-girlfriend/ mother of his child. I believe I have found her as well.
I also believe this OM is a person whom was living in their car, behind the service station in which my WW works. The manager gave him a job just to keep him from hanging out back all the time.

How do I approach these people and what do I say?
I also have his phone number of course, and his email. Should I call/ email and attempt to confront him?
If I do, I am sure my WW will hear about it within minutes.
I risk having the synced phone shut off and the password to the service provider changed.

my 20yr old daughter works at the same place and she would be able to give me more info. Such as if he still works there, if he is married, confirm the name of his girlfriend/ ex-GF... ect.
But, I am not sure if I should bring this to her. She does know about the affair which started this thread and does not approve, but at the same time, seems to favor her mother.

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I have found many possible relatives of this person she has been talking to. Young, old, possibly aunts, uncles, brothers, sisters, cousins. There are quite a lot, so I am unsure.
while I am figuring out a way to approach them, I am wondering if I should tell my WW that I know she is talking to another man night and day and how painful it is.

Right now I am resisting the urge.

* I am not even sure she has really or fully broken off contact with the OM that brought me here. Now I have to deal with two at the same time.
The first one, considering he lives across the world, had me quite optimistic. This one is very close by. Very likely nothing physical has happened, but it is, I believe, an affair by definition.

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Just sent out 31 friend requests to all of the possible relatives I could find of this new other person.

Should I have sent them all at once?

I am wondering if they will compare notes of some unknown person whom has sent a bunch of family members a friend request and perhaps I should pull some back and space them out over a bit of time.

What should my next step be, if and when any of them accept?
I am at a loss of what to say or how to say it.

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Originally Posted by PTSD
I am frightened she is jumping right into another affair.
Over 1400 texts in 4 days, at all hours of the day and night.
While it is almost certain that she is having another affair, this isn't enough evidence for you to take the first step on discovery, which is to expose the affair. Before you expose, you need to have enough evidence to convince a jury, and this isn't it.

The only thing you can do, with her being separated from you, is to continue to monitor the phone records, and try other means to get evidence. If you have no other means at your disposal, because she is separated from you, then you cannot proceed on this one.

With time, other evidence might emerge. Be patient.


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Okay. I will.
(I have however let the friend requests remain)

In the meantime should I talk to my oldest daughter about this?

If this is the person whom I believe (almost certain) it is, my daughter would have also worked with them at and know who he is.
I feel the need to inform her that her mother is once again carrying on with another, but am not sure if it is the right move. I am sure my WW is once again hiding everything from our children.

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Originally Posted by PTSD
Okay. I will.
(I have however let the friend requests remain)

In the meantime should I talk to my oldest daughter about this?

If this is the person whom I believe (almost certain) it is, my daughter would have also worked with them at and know who he is.
I feel the need to inform her that her mother is once again carrying on with another, but am not sure if it is the right move. I am sure my WW is once again hiding everything from our children.
Is she the 21 year-old?

If so, I think you need to work out whether you can convey to her that at present, you're highly suspicious of an affair, but the volume of texts alone is not evidence. You also cannot say for sure that the recipient is the man you suspect - unless you are now cast-iron sure about his phone number.

If you can convey that this is only a suspicion, and if you can trust her to keep cool and not accuse her mother without further evidence, then perhaps you can confide in her. She might be able to help you get more evidence, since she's worked with them.


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Originally Posted by PTSD
I discovered yesterday that she is sending 100's of texts back and forth to a number I have never seen before. This is a number in a neighboring town, not from the OM, whom lives overseas.

Best I can gather (but not 100 percent certain), by searching the number online, is that this is a male coworker. The texts have been literally one or more per minute, for several days.
They are at all hours of the day and night, including early AM, like 1 to 3 in the morning.
It's possible that this man was the real affair partner all long, and the one overseas was long dead, as she said it was.


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I am absolutely sure of the name that belongs to the phone number. I am also sure of the name of the woman whom is associated with that man's name. I found them both connected through google plus.
I am 90% sure both of the names match WW's co-worker (now possibly ex-coworker) and the stories I was told about his
(ex?) wife/girlfriend.

I am also sure of the length and timeframe of the affair with the OM overseas. I am still in contact with that OM's spouse. And she confirmed the events as they unfolded.

What neither I nor the first OM's spouse is sure of is if they are still sneaking contact with each other.

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My letter was addressed on the 8/10 radio episode. I listened to it (several times) today. It was of some help, but the first part of the response talked about the need for exposure, which of course I had already done almost 5 months ago. It also spoke of contacting the OM, which I had also done at that time.

* I would like to send him further messages, but the other BS asked me not to, just after my original confrontation letters. So, I am unsure if I should do this and risk severing contact with the other BS and her updates ?

The rest of the response became jumbled together and a bit convoluted, combing some unrelated questions into one, which lead to answers that kind of didn't pertain to my situation.
I sent another, much shorter letter today rephrasing and asking a few immediate questions of concern.


Speaking of the other BS. She contacted me just hours ago warning me that her WH is VERY SOON flying to Canada and to be on the alert that contact, or even a meeting, may happen between her WH and my WW.
The other BS insists it is due to a family emergency at the request of his parents in Canada. She said she can not give me details of the circumstances until her WH returns home.

This concerns me greatly because within my original discovery of the affair evidence was talk between the two of them, shortly before discovery, of him again coming to visit my WW this very summer.
I had informed the other BS, when originally informing her of the affair (and several times afterward) if it were to happen it would likely be in August as each of the 3 years of the affair included them seeing each other in August. He has also given his spouse the lie of visiting his parents in Canada before, to in fact take a trip with or visit my WW.
It is now August and by "coincidence" he is about to board a plane in this direction.
The other BS asked me to monitor the situation, and I would like to, but I am not sure how I can do this.

The other BS and I also talked about some of the original evidence, which includes over two years of her WH and my WW's Facebook chat.

I have a question about this piece of evidence.
Upon first discovery I attempted to read it. I could not get past the first several messages as it immediately became online sex. I might be able to get through more of it, if I were to try.
Is there a benefit to trying?
Perhaps there might be something in there describing what it was that made my WW unhappy? Or actions which lead to the affair. It will be very painful to read, but perhaps I can get through it in small doses.

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It was also suggested on yesterday's show that I should study the OM and what needs he was providing. Perhaps reading 2 years of their communications will accomplish that (?)

Is there any advice or precautions I can pass along to the other BS so that she may ensure her WH is not communicating with or possibly visiting my WW?

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Does the OM's BW have spyware on her WH?

Why doesn't she go on the trip with him?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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I will ask about spyware, but I do not believe the other BS has been allowed to get that close enough to her WH's electronics.

She says she can not go with because her job would not allow it and the high expense of a last minute flight across the world.

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Again on the radio show a few things were jumbled and mixed together as to my questions and actions and lead to some assumptions that don't exist. I guess it is understandable when condensing material.

For example,
During this entire time, I have not once been disrespectful while talking to my WW. I was also not referring to trying to call her as "investigating". I believe the discovery of these new texts and where they lead me, is the investigating.
I did not ask about printing up MB material and in some way
leaving it for my WW to find. I was speculating about making the texts known to her.
My father did not mention the word stalking in relation to calling my WW on the phone. He was referring to the fact that our phones remain synched. I also have not attempted to call my WW continuously since she last quit responding. Some days I have not tried at all and others I have tried once or twice.
Texting and calling are the actions that were making some progress. The times we have spent together were a result of doing so. It has been hard to get her to communicate, but she was talking enough, and positive enough times, to bring us up to last week.

Even so, I have taken the advice and am in a holding pattern.

What I am confused about is that my last advice 3 months ago was to ask my WW, at least every other day, if she would like to do things. I am believing "at least every other day" was because I could expect many "no" answers and then gently ask again in the next day or two. That by doing so, I might catch her in an agreeable mood, which I have a few times. That there might be light at the end of the tunnel after 3 months.

This latest advice mentions that if she gives a "no" answer I should stop. Seems a bit conflicting. I had slowed it down some and rarely mentioned the same activity twice, mixed it up between small activities together, time with the children, to already arranged gatherings with friends. But, did not completely stop over these last 12 weeks.

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Bad news. I'm not even sure how to react. Discovered today that my WW has apparently bought a plane ticket to NY. This is devastating. I am guessing I tell the other BS first. I think I should also let our families know.

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