The last week of my life has been an absolute nightmare. Let me tell the whole backstory because I don't want to leave anything and want real insight as to what is going on.

My husband and I have known each other for 20 years. We met online as teenagers, on opposite coasts of the country (NY for me and CA for him). We started an online "relationship" which of course gradually faded away as we were both entering HS and we moved on with our lives, naturally. However, we always kept in touch. Ever since we met, he's been obsessed with being with me. He told his mom when he was 15 that he would marry me someday. So when he joined the army at 19/20 and he had a choice to be stationed in Korea or upstate NY he chose NY with the hope of being near me.

So we started a friendship in person. The first time we met we were both so nervous. But after the initial awkwardness, we were like best friends immediately. We had been sharing our personal friendship with each other for so many years it felt natural to be together. We didn't date at that time, because I had a boyfriend. But he kept coming out to see me at school (my school was 1.5 from his base). After I left an emotionally abusive relationship for the second time, he was there. I realized he'd always been there and he had told me that he would never treat me like that, and I believed him. So we got together. Two months later we were engaged, and 10 months after that we were married. He then went overseas for a year, and when he got back we were together.

We've been married now 12 years. We have a 7 year old son. I have a lot of issues from my childhood and have dealt with depression for most of our relationship. We have had many ups and downs but we have always come out together. I started to see a psychiatrist about 3 years ago to deal with the depression as I was tired of taking everything out on my family, my husband and not being present for my child (emotionally). I went 3 times a week for a year, and came out of it on medication and having to cut off half of my family due to their toxicity. I officially cut off my father in January of 2015. My husband has been there for me through it all, regardless of how poorly I've treated him. I know I have a short temper, I know that I have high expectations, or put pressure on him. The past year I have been working relentlessly to give him more freedom, let him off the hook and not be bothered so much by insignificant things. But I fear the damage has been done.

My husband on the other hand has also dealt with depression and feelings of inadequacy his entire life, but he's never gone to get help. He's been depressed many times, but he hides his emotions. He does not talk about them. He never talks about when he has a problem or issue or is upset. He was verbally/physically/emotionally abused and neglected throughout his childhood. He abused drugs, smoked, slept around and dropped out of school as a teenager. When he joined the army he turned everything around.

He's always had volatile relationships and it seems his goal in life was just to be married at all costs. He proposed to 2 or 3 other girls before me and I guess I'm the one that stuck. We have been very happy in the past, despite our communication problems. We have had love, respect, passion, fun. We are best friends.

A year ago his parents announced they were divorcing after 35 years. He has no good relationship with his parents, he is never honest with them and has never had a real conversation with them since we've been together. The first time he said anything to his mom about how she treated him as a child was just after they announced their divorce last fall. It was the first time her ever told her his feelings of neglect and abuse.

I told him at the time, that I thought he should go and talk to someone. That I thought this divorce was really going to affect him, even though on the outside he was just as he always was. But he wouldn't and didn't.

Meanwhile it's been about a 1.5 since he started a new job. We've been all over, moving many times in our marriage. He left one job to go back to school and earn his Bachelors and through that time we had to sacrifice. For one part we had to live with my mom to make ends meet since he couldn't work and attend to his school schedule at the time. But it worked out because the GI Bill payed for all his schooling. He got a new job and we had to decide what to do. My entire support system (family) is here in the city where we live and the job is 1 hour away. We mutually decided we'd live closer to the city where my family is and he would commute. He insisted he didn't mind driving (he loves cars/driving/finds it relaxing) and I reiterated over and over that I didn't want him to always be exhausted that he had to be 100% sure of this because I didn't want to be the reason he was unhappy with his work life.

He was adamant. We bought a beautiful home in the country. We decided I would homeschool our son, and that I would also work from home on my business that I'd been building for the past 3 years.

Everything was fine, we did all the typical family things - went hunting for christmas trees, and decorated the house together, watching movies and tv together, took our child out to the park, dog for walks, we have dinner together EVERY NIGHT. We never eat in front of the tv or alone. We sit at the table and talk. He has always been affectionate and loving towards me. I have a hard time showing affection, I will admit. My father may have sexually abused me, but I don't know as I have no memories before age 10 (except being fearful of him) but he did it to my aunt and he's just a bad person and I have attachment issues because of it.

I have been feeling these past few months that he's been withdrawing towards me. We both had gained a few pounds, and I know I haven't been feeling attractive, and stopped trying so hard to impress him. I would still be in my pjs when he got home some days. And I admit that I faltered there. I should never let him feel like I didn't want to look my best for him.

I would say 3-4 months ago it was like a light switch and our hum-drum love life went FULL force. He was all over me, every night he wanted me. It was so amazing and I was so happy. We were so in tune, everything was great. Then gradually he started to withdraw. His mother came to live here for 2.5 months, and she was supposed to check out the area to see if she wanted to move near us and live or near his brother (in TX). However, a day after she got here she informed him (tearfully) that she already had but an offer in on a house in Texas before coming here. He was so angry and so was I. He's always played second fiddle to his brother, and I know he was excited at the prospect of having a member of his family around. I suspect he's always resented the fact that we've been near mine all this time, and he has not.

He told her it was fine that she would do what makes her happy. So the past 6 weeks he's been helping her deal with closing on this house that he was so angry at her for buying.

I would say a month or so ago, I started to get majority concerned about his lack of sexual affection towards me (he was still being affectionate in other ways). I told him I needed to feel wanted and desired, that I wanted him to want me. He had said that his issues with sex was making him not want to do it (he couldn't last, he would orgasm within a min or two and feel like he wasn't satisfying me, even though I told him that didn't matter to me!) Well, we had a conversation and I told him how I felt. He also told me some things that I didn't know. Things I say or do that upset him or make him feel "controlled" or "micromanaged". Ever since he was in the army he's hated being "told" what to do. Like if I announced that our son needed a bath tonight he would take it as me "Telling" him what to do.

So for about a week after that convo he was trying. We went on daily walks together to talk, and held hands. He started initiating more. When he came home he would kiss me for real. He said he wanted to hang out and watch a romantic movie on the weekend and we did. He was there for me. he told me he loved me.

Then everything changed. I felt him withdrawing again. I told him I thought he was becoming depressed and that he should get help. That I wanted him to be happy and that he didn't know if it would work unless he tried. That I would be there for him. He said he didn't know what to do. That he was scared to go and that he might find out he wants something "different". One week ago yesterday, when I hugged him after work, he didn't hug me back. The next day he pecked me on the lips like I was his grandma. I was very very concerned. I asked if he'd like to go on a date out to dinner that night. He said yes.

We started talking and I guess I got flushed, and splotchy which is what happens when I am really nervous. I had been talking to my sister and my friend that I felt like he was withdrawing and his words about being afraid of things "changing" were making me feel very uncomfortable and like he didn't want to be with me.

He kept pressuring me to tell him what was wrong, and I started to tear up. I told him I thought he was withdrawing from me, and asked him...if he still wanted to be with me? He said he didn't "know" what he wants.

Let me backtrack a bit and say that he did say he was going to get "help" and he emailed the VA. But he didn't call. In his message he said that he had been "dealing with mental issues for a long time and was ready to get help as it was affecting his mental state and "certainly his personal relationships"' however, they haven't gotten back to him. I have checked and he hasn't tried again.

So friday night he said that to me, and I was devastated. I tried to hold it together, I tried to be there. I thought it was his depression making him say these things. My family keep telling me he just needs space. So I cried that night, I didn't sleep and the following morning I went to my sisters. I cried to her, but then was steadfast in my decision that I would be there for him, that I would help him get through this and give him space, believing his depression was the cause for this change of heart and that he would come back to me. The whole weekend I was upbeat, caring. I didn't try to initiate any touch or contact, as badly as I wanted to. He would come home and say hi, and then withdraw. The hardest part was that he was completely normal with my son and his mother and everyone else. We would watch tv and we would laugh. But he didn't try to be near me, he didn't touch me. All week he's gone to bed with his back to me. It's like he wanted to be as far away from me as possible.

Yesterday it all came to a head. His mother literally left our home yesterday morning for good. Then at 4:30pm he came home and told me he was reading and that it scared him. That he thought we were "enmeshed" and that all of the symptoms resonate with him. That he's been only staying with me for our son, that he doesn't want him to be messed up like we are, that he was always doing things for me to make me happy but he hasn't been happy.

I know I have been difficult to live with. I know that I have been an emotional leech. I have always asked him over and over to open up to me, to tell me when something is wrong, but he doesn't. His way of dealing is clamming up. Shutting down. Pushing it down and down. He says his emotional buckets are overflowing. That he wants to be alone. That he wants to be friends. That he wants to be a good father. That he doesn't want to hurt me.

I had made an appointment with a therapist for tomorrow thinking I could talk to her about how to best support him through this depression and how to deal with on my end so that I could accept his not acting loving towards me and to be able to vent to someone besides him, while we work it out. Now he basically says he doesn't want to be with me. I left the house. Screaming and crying in my car. I feel blindsided. I feel like he punched me in the gut. He just sat there, no emotion about me at all. NONE. A week ago, he was hugging me and kissing me. now he's turned everything off.

So, I know the issue of an affair will be brought up. there is more backstory here. When we decided to finally have a baby he was currently in school getting a certification. He was away all day about 45 minutes drive away. We decided to try and that was that. Then he started withdrawing, being meaner to me. When I'd call him at school from work he'd act short and angry with me for calling. I was getting worried. I piled on the affection. i told him he could talk to me that i loved him.

We started reconnecting. Then the phone bill came. There were text charges there (this was before we had smart phones or unlimited texting). He said he'd gotten some wrong numbers and whatever. I believed him at the moment. Then I decided to investigate. The texts were to the same number, there were phone calls too. Always on his drive to or from school, always just after hanging up with me. I snooped. I went through his email. I found a conversation with an army buddy and he talked about how "everything was good now" that he "dealt with it" and that he'd "never had a temptation like that before". I confronted him and he told me everything. A girl in his class, he started flirting with, texting, calling. They'd study together. They were together all day at school for months. He decided to end it when he said he was going away for his duty weekend for the guard 2 hours away and she asked him if she could meet up with him there and hang out. He didn't think she was serious until she asked which hotel he would be at. He says nothing happened. I believe him because he told his friend the same, and in secrecy.

I was devasted. I found this out about 2 days after I found out I was pregnant. I was furious. I was heartbroken. But I had decided to have a baby with this man! He said he would never hurt me again, he said he loved me. He didn't want our relationship to end.

This was 7 years ago. I know the signs of an affair are there...but I cannot find any evidence. None at all. I have gone through his emails, I have checked phone logs. I sincerely thought it was his depression or something triggered by his parents separation. I have not snooped his phone. I have been trying to rebuild trust between us since after his first emotional affair and his lack of transparency and honesty with me about his feelings and state of being our entire relationship.

He wakes up early to go to work, he leaves super early so he can be home early and be with us. I always know where he is. I've called him at work this whole time and he's always in his office (up to this point). Or tells me that he will be in a meeting or whatever. He comes straight home. He doesn't guard his cell phone, he doesn't have a password. I can log into his personal email account from my computer, he doesn't care. He just comes home, is miserable, is exhausted, goes to bed early. He's not eating, he's losing weight. all the symptoms of depression are there, and I know how I was in the very deep throes of depression and I can sympathize with the way he feels.

I asked him point blank last week if there was someone else. He said no. I asked him again last night when I came back around midnight. He was sleeping. i was going to steal his phone and snoop, but I was worried he'd catch me. SO I woke him. I asked him again. Is there someone else? Please tell me the truth. He said no, there was no one. I said, "Not even something small, a flirtation? Someone at work you like to talk to ?" he said no. I told him he had until today if he was lying to tell me the truth, asked him if he knew that if I find out it's someone else it will kill me. He said ok, but it's not.

So I can snoop his phone at some point I'm sure. He doesn't hide it or guard it. He just leaves it around. I've been trying to log into his work email from home, but I can't access it. I don't know where he logs in from. I am hoping he has it set up on his phone, but I don't know.

He is dead set that it's over. He says he will try to talk to someone. I confronted him about getting help, because he had said he wanted to talk to someone to see what he wants. I asked him if he called. He said he'd emailed a few times and hadn't heard back. I told him that the therapist I am seeing would be willing to see him and he came back with being worried about "confidentiality" and her separating her opinions about us. This therapist will see us together also, so I am not sure if I will take that route or not or if he even wants to. When I pushed him to see if he called he finally admitted he hadn't. I told him, if he really wanted to feel better he would TRY. That I wasn't going to let him just walk away from this relationship. That I would never have had a kid with him if I'd known there was ever a possibility of having to raise him as divorced parents. I came from a family like that and i never wanted my child to go through that.

So now I am stuck. I don't know what to do. I've been reading all the info here and elsewhere, but it all feels like things that both people have to try to put in. And right now I feel like he doesn't want anything to do with me. That if I try to touch him he will pull away. How do I save my marriage? I love him. He is such a large part of my life, and my son's life. We've been an enviable family to outsiders. I was always giving advice to my sisters an girlfriends about not settling that there are "good" guys out there that will treat them like princesses, like my husband does.

I'm so lost and afraid. Tell me what I am doing wrong or where to go from here. Please help.

Summary:
*Met online 20 years ago, engaged 13 years ago, married 12 y, 7 y/o son, army marriage.
*Affair with classmate happened before you got pregnant, you discovered during pregnancy because you have access to his mail and phone.
*Now all the signs of an affair are there, but you didn't find one yet.
*He has a history of substance abuse and sleeping around.
*You have angry outbursts (I know I have a short temper)
*He had (has?) angry outbursts (volatile relationships)
*History of depression at both sides

How did the previous affair end, do you know who it was with, did it end properly?

Hi there,

The previous affair ended on his terms, before I found out about it. He didn't have any physical relationship with her. I never met her. He had mentioned her name once probably before I found out. I told him that he was never to speak to her again. He said it would be difficult because she was in his class. She actually ended up flunking out or dropping out a few weeks later and he never spoke to her again or saw her again.

The substance abuse and sleeping around all happened and ended before we even started dating. Since he's joined the army he hasn't smoked, or done drugs or anything. He was starting to drink regularly, like 1-2 drinks at night to "unwind" but at the beginning of Sept he decided to stop as at the time he said he was going to try to lose weight, but near the end of the month he told me that it was because he was starting to feel like he was turning into his father, needing a drink to deal and then blocking us out.

You need to put spyware on his phone. Also, put a VAR in his vehicle.

So I was able to access his iPhone back up from iTunes on my computer. I found nothing. I wasn't able to get on his email from my computer, but after he went to sleep I did take his phone and found how to access his work email. There was also nothing there. I'm going to see a psychologist today and I am going to talk to her about what's going on and see if I can figure out where I want to go from here. He is still acting distant and unwilling to talk. I had emailed him a link to the Emotional Needs quiz, and the article about Caring for children requiring the parents to care for each other, but I doubt he will read them.

You're stuck in a terrible nightmare, and you have my sympathy. I've been in the situation where knew something was going on, but could not monitor it.

You cannot give up spying because you have found nothing; all the signs of an affair are there.

Your husband might have another phone that he keeps at work. He shows an unusual degree of openness with his current phone, and that could be the explanation. Is there any way you could sneak a voice-activated recorder into a bag he takes to work? If he goes to the gym at work and takes a bag, or perhaps has a laptop bag, could you find a compartment in which to hide a VAR?

The best thing, though would be to hire a PI. If you tell a PI about his comings and goings, he would know when to watch, and could find the evidence in two days.

Also, check the financial records. He may have a hidden phone. And place a VAR in his car.

If financial records on accounts you know about don't show any unusual activity, also pull his credit report and look for accounts you don't know about.

So it's been about a week, and up until a couple days ago my husband was not guarded with his phone. Boy did that change. I went to look at our Verizon account and the password had been changed. So I went to his gmail account, and the password is also changed. I asked him why he changed the Verizon password and he gave me some [censored] excuse about a notification of hacking from the company or something. I asked him to log me in. I left the room and he logged me in, but then I was getting ready to meet a friend and the way he was acting just made me so angry. I said "Something is going on. I don't know what you are hiding from me but SOMETHING happened". Oh, his phone was on the bed and that password have been changed too. I went out with my friend and when I came home I went to log onto Verizon again. I wanted to see if he'd saved the password. The screen had timed out. I tried to log in. Wrong password. So he had to have clicked "do not save password" when it popped up earlier in the evening. My thoughts are he's probably been texting someone but only iMessages so I couldn't see them. Now he's moved on to calling her, and there will be a record of those calls. He has an hour drive to and from work. This is when I suspect they are chatting.

So after I became even more angry and suspicious, I knocked on his door and barged in, telling him to show me his phone right now. He sat up and because FURIOUS. I told him I know he's changed his passwords, WHY? He started turning it around on me, telling me that he KNEW I was snooping, and that from this moment on I will not be "In his [censored]". I asked him who he was talking to. He denied denied denied. I said that I wasn't stupid, you don't just turn off your feelings to someone after 12 years. WHO IS IT. He said he'd been talking to some people from work because he has no one. First he wouldn't admit if it was women or men. I don't think it's multiple people. I think it's one person. He kept denying it. Well as luck would have it, right as I was standing there his phone buzzed. It was 10:45 pm. He was in bed. I said WHO is texting you at 10:45 in bed? I demanded to see the phone and he refused. Basically we went back and forth and he further revealed that he was texting with a co-worker. That he is just talking to her because he has no one else. I lost it. I told him, you are supposed to talk to ME. We had just done a temporary separation agreement and one of the groundless was no other relationships. I told him that texting another woman in his marital bed at 11 pm about his failing marriage was inappropriate and if it wasn't already an affair it was on it's way there. I told him that he was throwing away our marriage. That of course he won't feel things for me when he's talking to someone else. She is telling him things he wants to hear. I asked him what was the point of the separation? We were going to decide what to do at the end, move forward with reconciliation or divorce? He told me right now, today he wants a divorce. But he said three months is a long time and doesn't know how he'll feel then. I told him that if he continues to follow this path he is on, then it WILL end in divorce, so what would be the point in even waiting. I am so hurt and upset. It is 3 am, and I haven't slept yet because of this. I am shaking I am so hurt. What do I do?

I am currently downloading a key logger onto my desktop, so that the next time he puts in a password I will have a record of it.

I know how much this hurts and I'm sorry you're hurting. You will find out the truth and then that will give you the best plan to fight for your marriage and bust up the affair.

Put a voice atctivated recorder (VAR) in his vehicle.

Also can you get her number and start researching on who she is?

Have you checked all the bank accounts? Make sure you have money. Also, you may want to get a PI to follow him at work. If he has already gotten to a separation agreement, it is likely physical.

So this morning he called me. I was trying to get teen safe on his phone and apple notified him of me logging in. It was either that or trying to sign into messenger from my computer. Either way, I blew it. he called me to ask what I was doing. Last night we didn't finish our "conversation" because my son ran into the room crying, upset that he woke up and we didn't hear him calling us. So I went to bed with him and left my husband there in the room. I just told him that yes, I was trying to access his phone. I felt he'd been lying to me and since he can't be truthful I was trying to snoop. He said he wanted to continue talking. I told him his behaviors are pointing to an affair and not just depression, and that of course he doesn't want to be with me if he wants to be with someone else. He changed back the password on Verizon and told me I could go look. There are two convos from the past 2 days to one number that were both when I wasn't at home and were over an hour long. I asked him if this woman's (who is married) husband would appreciate his wife talking to a married man for over an hour at night. He said no. So I don't know what to do. I told him I need to talk to him. He says that this person is not the reason he wants to separate from me. I wanted to have him read the article about infidelity (part 1) I think? It is text book what he is doing. Is that a bad idea? He seems so tired and apathetic. Like he just doesn't care anymore. I didn't sleep at all last night and I am still shaking.

Oh, I also just looked up her number and I immediately found her name and then her Linkd in profile and FB profile.

You need to slow down and be more strategic here. At this point, all you have done is fly off the handle which is very unattractive and will drive him to her, and give away the fact that you are suspicious so the affair can go more underground.

You need to stop and take a breath. You can fight this if you follow a plan. You will just harm your marriage more if you choose to be a loose canon instead.

I am very sorry you are going through this.

QUIETLY put spyware on the computer. He knows you are trying to do so to his phone so will probably switch to a burner phone at this point. Also, put a VAR in his car, I think you will gain a lot of evidence from this.

Do not confront him or tell him what you are doing. Do not fly off the handle. I know this is hard because you are mad and hurt. But many people here have been able to get the evidence in a strategic stealth manner, you can do this!

Meanwhile, read the Exposure 101 thread in the notable posts section and prepare an exposure list. Go NOW to social media and make a list of exposure targets for OW, she has been tipped off that you know now and will probably be locking those down tight. Do NOT tell your husband or threaten exposure, you do not want to tip your hand anymore than you already have.

Go read up in Exposure 101 (link below). Exposure 101

Stop talking about the affair for the moment. You need start working the strategy in the plan.

forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2566583#Post2566583

I'm going to remain calm. What do I do if he says he wants to be with her? Or that he no longer wants to try and wants a divorce? I just need some encouragement that we can still survive this. I will look into the VAR as soon as I can get to a store to buy one with cash. Maybe tonight. The key logger on my computer is still up and running, so maybe if I leave the house for a bit tonight he'll use the computer while I am gone.

Stop. Go to Facebook and copy her friends list into a document. Then Read Exposure 101.

Ok I've copied her friends list and saved it as a draft email in an old account he doesn't know I still use. I read Exposure 101 last night while I was not sleeping all night, but I will go back over it again now. Thank you.

You are showing him your hand. Don't confront him, he knows he is having an affair.

This is the hardest thing I've ever had to do. Thanks for all the advice.

Your marriage can survive this. Dr Harley has created a very strategic plan to kill affairs and recover marriages, he has devised this plan after 40+ years of dealing with marriages damaged by affairs. The more rogue you go from that plan, the less likely your marriage will be to survive. We have seen many times people who just let their emotions guide the way, and it ends up disastrous.

A proper and thorough exposure is the single greatest way to kill an affair. People who muck this step up, or refuse to do it, have a much smaller likelihood of recovering their marriages.

Right now you want to be in what Dr Harley calls 'Plan A.' Plan A is twofold: 1) fill his EN's and avoid lovebusters, show him what kind of marriage he can expect if he stays, be at your best and be the better option, and 2) simultaneously do whatever you can to kill the affair (exposure).

If he says he wants to be with her, remain calm. Tell him that you love him and you are sorry for your part in the failure of your marriage. Tell him that you can create a better marriage than you have ever had, but he must first end his affair with skanky.

Meanwhile, get a VAR in his car pronto. You already have his confession that he is talking to this woman (having an EA), but I am guessing this is far more entrenched than he is letting on. You need to get the evidence so you can expose it properly and he cannot downplay it as a simple friendship. Get your exposure list ready, as soon as you have the evidence you will want to do a full exposure starting with OW's BH.

Thank you, this is exactly what I needed to hear. I am definitely going to go out tonight and get the VAR. I will try to put it in his car while he is asleep. I'm sure my catching him calling and texting her is just going to make him more careful, so I wish I'd maintained my composure, but I will not let it happen again.

Also, another quick question. As far as his ENs are. Do I attempt to have him take the quiz so that I am certain of what they are? I don't know if he will or not, I just don't want to be doing the wrong things. I know he says he doesn't want to work on our relationship at all, so I suppose I'm just confused on how I show affection for example, if he doesn't want to be near me. Thoughts?

You are doing great so far.

Don't worry about letting your emotions get the best of you, we have all been there! But now you know that it is not strategic to do so and you have a plan to follow.

Working on your marriage together in that way, by having him do any MB material for instance, is really not going to help right now when he is involved in an affair.

Affairs are an addiction, just like drugs or alcohol. That addiction is very powerful, it makes people risk their careers, marriages, families, their entire lives sometimes just to feed the high. You can see this in the media all the time, people who risk their entire lives for an OW/OM. What is so special about that person? Nothing, in fact in general people 'affair down' and have affairs with someone who is less desirable than their own spouse. It is the HIGH that they chase, more than the person. This high creates foggy thinking, the affair 'fog.' People who are in the fog do not think rationally, much like a drug addict looking for a fix doesn't think rationally. You can't reason with someone in the fog.

Exposure is waking them up with a cold bucket of water, the water of reality. It is the single greatest method to wake someone up from the fantasy of an affair.

Until you have killed the affair, trying to work rationally on your marriage is just not effective. Which is why killing the affair is step 1.

What have your WH's complaints been about you? Are there specific things he has said he wants that you have not been doing? Are there things you do that he has been asking you to stop doing? Start here.

You can also look at the top EN's for men in general.

Dr Harley does not recommend women being in Plan A for more than 3 weeks. In that 3 weeks you want to do a complete exposure, and if the affair hasn't ended and he hasn't committed to recovery yet, you will want to look at separating. I am guessing exposure will have a great impact in your case, if you do it right. But this Plan A of being wonderful while he is investing in another women will not go on forever. If it comes to separation, you want to leave knowing that you were at your best for 3 weeks and left him a taste of what a great marriage with you could be like (vs fighting and acting emotional and crazy...).

I would suggest you notify the mods to move this to the surviving an affair forum.

I see BrainHurts posted this to you twice. I sure hope you don't continue to ignore this.

I know this has already been touched upon, but STOP trying to talk your WH out of his affair. That does NOT work.

Is there a reason that you are not posting in Surviving an Affair?

She has attempted to put spyware on his phone and got busted. She does have a keylogger on the computer and is working on getting a VAR today in a manner that is untraceable (cash transaction).

Yes I saw that.

Unfortunately, what I have noticed over the years is that people who are posting in MB101 with affair issues tend to want to resolve the problem by meeting ENs and avoiding LBers - even when telling us that they are snooping.

Hopefully that's not the case here.

MrsSmyth, did you get the VAR today?

So I went to look for the VAR yesterday, because Thursday I was unable to leave the house again after my husband came home. I went to Walmart and they only had two, and they were both a little too conspicuous. He is obsessed with his car and it's new, so I'm worried about putting something in there that LOOKS like a recording device, should he find it when cleaning the car or something. I think I'm going to have to figure out how to order one that doesn't look like a recorder. Has anyone used the USB type? That's the one I'm leaning towards because I think I could pop that in his briefcase and that way it would go in the car with him and into the office. I also found an iPhone charger that has a hidden camera that can be watched remotely. Any experience with those? I was thinking of putting it in our bedroom, because it needs wireless to work and I know he doesn't have wireless at work. I'm still hoping I can figure out his iPhone password so I can someone access his iCloud account and connect him to the teensafe tracker. He told me Thursday that he has told these other "people" he can no longer talk to them as he wants to make this decision to be alone "without any outside influence, even subconsciously". He is much more present and himself, and he's slept soundly the past two nights since I confronted him about the password changes, but most likely he's just blowing smoke up my [censored]. I want him to get comfortable again with my acting normal and not suspicious so perhaps he will slip up and leave some evidence. I am thinking about going out tonight and staying out late. I am hoping he hops on my computer at some point while I'm gone and logs into his email. I have the key logger working in the background. Any advice is appreciated.

Oh, also, has anyone done all the surveillance and then not found evidence of an affair while doing Plan A? What do you do at that point? I am strongly considering hiring a PI in a couple weeks if nothing comes up just so I can be certain. But is a PI useful if it's just an emotional affair and not physical? I just want to know the truth.

Use 3M command Velcro strips and stick the VAR under his car seat.

Don't wait a couple of weeks to hire a PI. If you don't have evidence by Tuesday night, call a PI to follow your husband around. He is likely meeting with her on lunch breaks and during work hours. Meanwhile, pull his credit report and check all the bank accounts for suspicious transactions.

In the 6 years I have been on these boards, I have never seen a case where everything pointed to an affair (and in this case you already KNOW because he has admitted it to you), and the BS *diligently* snooped, and did not find any evidence. There is always evidence, sometimes it is just buried better than other times. In your case, I do not think your WH is being super cautious and anticipate a VAR giving you your answer.

Get the VAR and put it under his seat. I don't know anybody who checks under his seat regularly. You don't want it out in the open where he can see it so it isn't really important what it looks like. I would start there right now, you can go to the fancier stuff if you need to but I don't think you will need to.

Do you have your exposure list ready? When you get the evidence, whether it is an EA or a PA, you will want to do one massive exposure. Your most important target will be her BH.

Did you read the exposure 101 thread and are you ready to do this?

Ok the VAR is in. It's underneath the passengers seat. I bought a second one to hide under our bed, I'll put it there later today. I couldn't find any sort of GPS tracking device, which bummed me out because he's going "out" this afternoon to his friends' and I'm feeling like he's being weird about it. He definitely trimmed up his nether region this morning in the shower, because I saw a disposable razor in there after he got out and that's the only thing he uses them for. When I checked again later it was gone. I'm so mad that I didn't get to install the spyware on his phone before he changed his iCloud password. I'm gonna try to get him to use my computer to add some music to my iTunes.

I also wrote down the mileage on his car. He's going to a friend whose house we were at yesterday so I know exactly how many miles it should take him to get there. I was thinking of dropping my son off with my mother and driving by there at some point as well to see if he's there. Thoughts?

Also, I have all of my contacts and most of his on my phone. I just have to go into our Verizon to get some of his friend's numbers. Some of his family I will email. I don't know her BS yet. I have to be sure it's the right woman. He's stopped using his phone to call, so I am not sure how to go about that if he is just texting and the iMessages aren't being recorded. I do have the FB list of the woman whom he had the two long convos with.

Ok, so I've listened to the recording from his room last night and there is nothing there. So I will place it again tonight. I ended up leaving the VAR in his car overnight and all day today, so I will remove it and listen to it tonight after he's gone to bed. I did end up driving by his friend's house, but it was later than I'd hoped and neither car was there. I did take a photo with a timestamp and email it to myself. However, when I got home with my son a couple hours later, he was there already and said he'd been home for a while. The timeline checked out and he had gone out to buy us homemade ice cream. I am going to wait and see what the tape might reveal. Thanks everyone for your help so far

Did you get a chance to check the mileage?

Remind me if he has a work phone or computer he uses? Do you have access to that?

No, I didn't get to check the mileage. He has a desktop computer at work, and he has a phone at work that he uses all day for phone calls. I have no access to either. his work is 1 hour away, is huge and you need an ID to get in. He will check his email from his cell phone and I'm sure he's checked it from my computer at some point, but that was before and now I don't know when the next time he will try to access it from my computer will be. My best bet is somehow getting into his phone, but I'm pretty sure his password is still changed. He uses touch ID and at one point added my sons print to it (because my son insisted), but he might have deleted it. Is it skeevy to try and get my son to use his finger print to open the phone :-P ? I don't know when I'd have access to it long enough, but that's all I can think of right now. My main reason for wanting the USB VAR was so I could put it in his briefcase and maybe hear his work convos.

No its not skeevy. It is skeevy to have an illicit affair while your wife is at home with your young child. It is skeevy to keep secrets from your wife and family. It is skeevy to make your wife go to extreme lengths to find out the truth about her life, and protect her marriage and family.

Let's keep skeevy in perspective here.

You are simply doing what you need to protect your marriage and family, and this includes your son.

This would be great if you can do it. I am quite certain since he knows you are suspicious and have tried to hack his phone, he is carrying on most if not all communications at work where you do not have access.

No I know you are right. The problem I'm having is he's still toting his phone around everywhere he goes. I haven't seen him typing in a password, but I believe he is just holding down his thumb and it is opening up the screen that way. I started listening to the recording from the car. I haven't had a chance to upload it to my computer I have to wait until he isn't home tomorrow. I didn't get a chance to replace the recorder in his car with the other one, I was just going to risk discovery and put one in his briefcase. I asked him on our way to our son's soccer practice if he still brings his briefcase in with him and he said yes, and I joked "even though you don't really use it?" and he laughed and said yes and joked about how he keeps his knife in there (former military, always has one on him), so he takes it in. I thought since he doesn't really use the briefcase I could just put the regular VAR in there. However when I left my room to go outside to put it in there, he came out of our bedroom, saying he heard noises. Unfortunately our bedroom is situated right next to the driveway and our cars are visible from the window (ranch). I was afraid he'd catch me if I tried to go out, especially since he sleeps with the window open.

I got a return call from a lawyer today for a consultation but they sent me to voicemail when I called back, so I will try tomorrow again. I also had partially filled out a form for a PI, but then chicken out....well they called me since I'd put my number in there already. I got some info and the guy said he'd check back in with me in a couple days. I want to do it, but it's so expensive, and what if he's backed off since I caught him late last week? Would it be wiser to wait a few more days or a week for him to feel secure again before I spend all that money? And is $99/hour about the going rate? Does anyone have experience with hiring a PI? I just want to know the truth. Tonight he was distant from me again and talking about how he couldn't sleep again last night and how our talk last week was "just a bandaid" ...he has an appointment with his therapist tomorrow afternoon. I don't know. I am just so lonely and sad tonight. I was reading about the signs of cheating (instead of sleeping, like I should be), and he's fit everything - and the way he's treating me is hurting me so deeply. Just a few weeks ago he was mine and now he feels like a total stranger.

Here Private Investigators

Thanks, I put in a request. I have contact with another company as well. I just found a Sears MasterCard I had been avoiding activating because I really don't like to use credit cards. I haven't used it in so long my credit limit has shrunk down but it's still 2k, so maybe I will use it to hire the PI.

As of now, listening to the VAR from his car, there is nothing there. Just music and his audio book, no phone calls or any convos whatsoever.

I changed the email address to our Verizon account to be mine so that he couldn't lock me out again and he got notified and called me immediately. He said he was worried someone "hacked" us. I just told him that I wanted to be able to access the account, so I made it my email if that was ok with him, and he said that was fine, just wished I'd told him. I said I was going to tell him later. He said he "wants" me to have access to it.

I feel like I am falling apart. If nothing comes out of the snooping I don't know if I can keep living with him in the house like this. He just stopped loving me and it's killing me.

Have you searched his briefcase? Maybe he is carrying it with him because he hides a second phone there. Having a separate untraceable 'affair phone' is quite common.

Something happened. I'm sure everything is messed up now. I'm sorry, everything fell apart.

He called me after he said it was ok that I changed the email of the phone and told me he was "done" that he felt backed into a corner, that he didn't want to be with me anymore. That he didn't need any more time, he knows he's done with me. That I don't believe his own words and that he's not having an affair that he just doesn't want to be with me. I lost it and I told him that I was packing up his stuff and putting it outside and when he comes home he can get it and he needs to find somewhere else to live. Everything fell apart. I went and bought boxes and locks (although legally I don't think I can change them so I'm not), and put his stuff outside. I told him I can't live like this, waiting, not knowing anymore. It's killing me. I told him not to call me anymore and he asked me when he could see our son and I said I don't know, that he's the one who's choosing to rip our family apart so he's going to have to get used to not being able to see him whenever he wants. That he can contact me when he decides he wants to keep his family together.

I know I just did everything wrong, but can you please help me? I don't even know if I want to be with him anymore, if he doesn't want to be with me and he doesn't love me. I had just made an appointment with a PI to figure out when to have him monitored, she is still supposed to come tomorrow at noon. I don't know what to do. I've never felt so lost in all my life

Calm down.

He called you in the first place because he knows you are trying to monitor him and he is panicking. He is panicking because he is having an affair and he doesn't want to you to find out and blow it up.

This is exactly what you need to do.

You have gotten a bit sidetracked, you let your emotions get the best of you. YOU NEED TO STOP LETTING THIS HAPPEN. But the plan stays the same, so get back to it.

Hire that PI and get him followed asap. It can be expensive, but divorce is much more expensive.

I would absolutely check the VAR tonight, perhaps he will call OW from the car because of the panic.

What do I need to do? Make him leave? Is this right? He just told my son on the phone we are getting a divorce.

His stuff is already outside.

Go outside and get his stuff and put it back. But keep the boxes and locks because you may need them in the near future. Just call him and tell him you are sorry for your outburst, that you have changed your mind and you do not want him to move out. You will not go along with his plans to end your marriage.

Once he leaves it will be much more difficult to find out the truth and do this the right way.

You need to calm down, first of all. You really cannot let your emotions get the best of you like this.

1. Get evidence of the affair.
2. Expose the affair far and wide.

This is your Plan AprilMay, this is all you need to focus on. Become an emotionless robot who is hellbent on following this plan, until it is done.

How do I let him back, I can't! I can't. This is awful.

Can you control your emotions?

Yes. I can. I just. I hear his disdain for me in his voice. I can't live in this house with him. It's already been 3 weeks since he told me he doesn't want to be with me.

I don't think you should get his stuff and tell him you did not mean what you said. I think you should mean what you said.

You have not got to the bottom of whether there is an affair, but his behaviour is affecting your mental health, and he has told you he does not want to be with you. For those reasons, you should not put yourself through another second of torture. Follow through with putting him out. You need to go to Plan B today, and shield yourself from any more pain. Even if he is not having an affair, he is not showing care for you and has told you he wants out. Don't ask him to stay.

He told you that because he is having an affair.

He has disdain for you because he is having an affair.

Trust me, this living in the house while he carries on an affair will be over soon. Once you have gotten the evidence and exposed the affair, if he does not end it and commit to the marriage, THEN you can change the locks and go into a dark Plan B. But I really don't want to see you do that and brush this affair that he is clearly having with his coworker under the rug.

This can still be saved, but the affair has to die first. That is why you need to put 100% of your effort into following the plan and getting the evidence.

Call the PI right now and find out how soon he/she can start.

Well I see the SugarCane and I are giving you different advice. She has more experience with this and so I will tell you to listen to her if that is what she thinks.

I would still hire the PI asap though. You still have a chance of getting this evidence.

Thank you, both of you. I am going to still meet with the PI tomorrow. I will charge it if I have to find out the truth.

Thank you, I am still going to meet with her tomorrow.

Do I make him take his bloody dog with him? This thing stresses me out beyond all hell. I'm only half kidding.

I just know how fierce Dr Harley fights for the protection of a woman's mental and physical health, when she is facing an affair that will not end immediately. I know the poster does not have the name of the co-worker nor sight of the messages, to see how far this affair has gone, but I think we know enough to know that there definitely is an affair. No co-worker should be texting his phone at 10.45PM, or, if it's a legitimate workplace emergency, her husband should have no hesitation in showing her the text. He has had an affair before, after all, and should not wonder why she would be suspicious.

There is plenty of evidence of an affair of some kind. Her husband is being cruel with his words and behaviour, and this is affecting the poster's mental health. I think Dr Harley would tell her to protect herself from this right now. Further evidence might or might not emerge some day, but it is not worth her while suffering until it does, or, indeed, fighting for him. Dr Harley does not recommend that wives fight for unfaithful husbands; it is ineffective, and detrimental to the health of the wives.

Of course you do.

Thank you, my BFF just said the same. I am sending the dog with him. He can deal with him.

AprilMay12:

From what I've read so far, I'd recommend Plan B. Granted, it may have been a good idea to have him experience you in plan A for the next few weeks, but things have probably gone too far for that right now. It's very unlikely that your husband is in any mood to end his affair, and inviting him back home might only cause you to be stressed to a point of a breakdown. Having him away from you for awhile will help you gather your thoughts and plan for the next few weeks with intelligence rather than emotion. Exposure is a good idea, but make sure that you've read exposure 101 carefully. I have also written an article entitled, "When Should an Affair Be Exposed. Read that too. Write to mbradio@marriagebuilders.com and Joyce and I can provide more specific guidance to you.

Best wishes,
Dr. Harley

Thank you so much Dr. Harley. I have been trying to implement plan A for the past week or so, and I have been pleasant and supportive and a happy wife as much as possible since he told me three weeks ago. He even told me that he doesn't like when we are happy and having a good day because it probably give s me the wrong idea that things are fine, when they are not. Which is heartbreaking to hear. I appreciate your support and guidance. Thank you.

He called and I stupidly answered. He asked what to expect when he gets home and I said that his stuff is outside and he can find somewhere else to live, and take his dog. When I reminded him he had told me that if the separation arrangement wasn't working that he said he would leave, just to let him know, that he had people he could stay with, he almost chuckled like it was joke. He asked me if I was using my son as a weapon against him. I said no. I repeated that he was to take his items and leave and then hung up. I don't know what will happen now.

April, I am just catching up on your thread. I don't think you did the wrong the thing in speaking to him. I would stick this out and be very firm but very polite when he comes to get his things.

I would strongly suggest you call the locksmith tomorrow and get your locks changed too. If not, he will be free to wander in and out of your home which will drive you nuts.

Thank you Melody. I actually bought new keyed door handles at Home Depot when I got the boxes. Should I change them? Or wait til after he leaves the house? I don't think I can legally, but does it matter at this point?

Yes, you can legally change your locks. I would go ahead and get this done before he comes home if you can.

ok

I don't know if I have time before he gets here and I don't want him to walk up on me doing it. I think I will just wait and see what happens and then change them tonight after my son goes to bed.

Can you at least change the deadbolt quickly?

Sounds good! At least you have a plan.

So, he came, put all his things in the car and then called and asked if he could see our son. I let him come to the door to say goodnight. Then he asked to talk to me outside. So I went out. He asked me why I was being vengeful and wasn't there a different way we could do this. I told him that I've been waiting a month, and I can't continue living with him like this, as it's detrimental to my health and sanity and that it's killing me. That I can't live with him, hoping he will change his mind, when he doesn't want to be with me. He kept telling me he didn't want this to be nasty, that he cares about me, that he wants to give me space, but he doesn't want this to be this way.

I stood fast and told him I couldn't have him in the house anymore and that he could leave behind whatever he didn't have room for in the garage and come back to get it later. That I would get a mediator to figure out when he can see our son, because I can't talk to him anymore. He doesn't want to involve any other people, he thinks we can "figure this out" on our own. I said, I don't think so. I told him he's hurt me deeply. He said he didn't want this for our son, and I said neither did I. That I wanted a mother and father who love each other and live in the same home for him.

He left without the dog. He had no space for him. I told him we will figure it out in the coming days, through email most likely. I don't know what else to do now. Just wait? I signed up for a salsa class that begins tomorrow. My sister is coming to watch my son and then she is going to spend the night here. She works part time for me so she was going to be here Thursday morning anyway. Hopefully she can keep him occupied so I can get some work done.

I still have a meeting with the PI tomorrow at noon and I began calling lawyers today. I am going to keep looking for one that I click with, because the one I spoke to today I didn't really feel great about.

Thanks everyone for your help and any advice is greatly respected and appreciated.

You did good.

Have you seen this?
How to Plan B Correctly

The Plan B letter from SAA is in that thread as well.

Do you have someone that can act as an IM so you don't have to communicate with him? I think communicating with him is going to cause you more pain.

April, you did fantastic in holding your ground. I would get the locks changed tomorrow so he doesn't come in. Study up on Plan B and make preparations to go into a dark separation. You will want to enlist the help of an intermediary who will facilitate all communications. Do you have someone in mind who can agree to act as a spam filter?

Once you find an intermediary, you can send him a Plan B letter with a visitation schedule. He can pick up your son and drop him off from the drive way so that you don't have to communicate directly with him.

Once you send the Plan B letter cutting off all contact, you can expect him to get very upset about losing control over you. He will try to get through to you and will initially refuse to use your IM. [very typical] When that happens, you need to be prepared to hold your ground and not let him contact you directly. He will start using the IM once he sees you are serious.

Thank you for the support and advice. I guess today I'm gonna hire the PI to do some surveillance on him, although I'm worried she won't find anything. If I don't get any hard evidence of an affair, how do I write the Plan B letter? Do I just talk about him hurting me and omit the affair verbiage?

I will change the locks today also.

I don't really have anyone here that could be an IM that isn't involved already. He has no family near by and all of mine is flabbergasted and devastated about what is going on. I may be able to ask a cousin or aunt/uncle that doesn't know yet, but I'm not sure once I tell them that they can be non-emotional about it. We don't have any close friends in the area either. I'm not sure what to do. Does anyone have any recommendations?

Yes. But I really do think there is an affair so I wouldn't give up quickly.


Good!


Do you have a close friend who would agree to act as a neutral spam filter? She doesn't have to live in the area because all communication can be handled via email.

Melody, I am not going to give up to discover if there is an affair. When does the letter need to be written by? Like within a week?

Ok, so I just need someone that he can email that will then email me? I will have to think of someone that i think might be able to do that. Thank you.

I would send it this weekend after you have all your plans laid out. For example, you need to line up an IM, set up a child visitation schedule, make arrangements so he can't get through to you.


This person will act as a spam filter and only pass on PERTINENT information about child visitation and finances. Your husband will be sending manipulative, gaslighting tirades to you along the lines of "He doesn't want to involve any other people, he thinks we can "figure this out" on our own. " He will call you immature for not "co-parenting" [a mythological construct devised by lazy court bureaucrats] with him and try to make you feel like a bad parent. This type of communication should never get through to you. Your IM has to agree to never send this stuff to you.

When he sends you pertinent information about finances, children, she would email you a SUMMARY in her own words. She has to first determine if the communication is absolutely necessary. I can also volunteer to help your IM through any difficult patches. Usually when I help them through the first diffccult patch [usually some kind of threat from the wayward] they relax and handle it with ease.

You can use your sister if she will agree to remain neutral with him. She doesn't have to BE neutral, she would have to be neutral in her communications with him, no lecturing or fighting with him.

hoping that unwritten comes back. She has been giving you SUPER advice since you arrived. She is a rockstar!!

Ok, I will see which sister I should use. I have three. I think one of them would be able to do that.

I guess I am just struggling with obtaining the evidence of an affair. What if kicking him out made him stop? If I have it investigated and nothing comes up, do I give up looking? I don't want to spend too much money, as now I'm worried that we will divorce and I have a finite number of resources.

What do I do if he emails me or texts?

First off, kicking him out won't make the affair end. And I agree you don't want to run yourself dry but you need to do what you CAN to get the evidence.


For NOW, you would answer them. When you go into Plan B, you should block his direct access somehow, even if it means changing your #. You should be able to bounce his emails.

Thank you. Sorry for all the questions!

They are good questions!!

He is unlikely to stop an affair because he is addicted to it. If anything, he will have more time for it. The PI should be able to find the evidence. I'm not sure if you checked his credit report. Make sure you record the amounts in all accounts. If you need to move money to a new account at a new bank, do.

I just met with the PI. She is going to go by his friend's house tonight to see if that's where he staying. On Friday she will go to his work and watch to see what he does there and where he goes after. She's going to update me as things progress.

I have looked through our accounts. He gets his paycheck direct deposited. He gets VA disability and that is also direct deposited. I have not seen any payments to other cards, bills, etc. We have always had open access to all the money, and it's always been both of ours, regardless of source. I am going to look at his credit report, but I don't think I will find anything there. He did take $80 in cash out of an ATM this past weekend. He used it to go to dinner, but I don't know why he took out so much. He had also recently asked if we could "budget" for him to be able to buy car parts and fix his car (he has a classic car he is building). It seemed weird and I'm wondering if that was gonna be his cover up for taking money out without my being suspicious.

I moved some money from our main account to my own bank. I had just closed all my own cards last month and put all our money into his bank, because I was being charged all sorts of fees. I feel so stupid that I did that. Luckily they couldn't close one of mine the day I went in, because I had an open transaction. So I'm using that card now.

He emailed asking if he could see our son tonight. I don't know what to tell him.