Its been 4 months since the affair was exposed, all steps except moving have been taken. I'd say we are in some sort of recovery, however WW is unwilling to follow the MB plan, she didn't like that SF was a legitimate emotional need, because she uses as justification for the A (a legitimate issue between us, that I've since improved, but she wont let it go). My WW will not tell me that she's committed to us or me, she says she doesn't want to say it before she feels it, but for me it feels like torture. Like she's holding onto all control and using that to continue to keep me on edge that if I screw up she'll be gone. I don't know why, but I feel that if she commits to me and us I'll feel a huge sense of relief or affirmation. I guess what I'm seeking is affirmation that things will be ok and that if there are mis-steps in the recovery process it wont be the end.
She says she is trying and that her actions should show me that, and I do see improvements, but there's this lingering fear that I cant shake. I feel that I'm competing with the fantasy of the A, and she's waiting to see if I can compare before she decides to commit, but I view the world in the opposite sense, where you need to recommit and then work on creating the feeling.

Is this a legitimate request? Do I just need to give it time? OR is this just me trying to make the pain go away faster?

I think what I'm struggling with is the part of Plan A where it's meeting the WS top emotional needs without anything in return, which is kind of where we are. My emotional needs are not being met and there's an unwillingness to do so. What is hard is that she wants more IC, which we've been working on, but I know that's what OM provided, now I'm struggling with the insecurity that I'm not as "fun" as OM and its hard to meet this emotional need, cause I feel like I'm forcing it or constantly comparing myself to OM, because I know she's comparing it to what they had. Any advice is appreciated!

Have you read SAA? Sue in the book never said sorry for her affair and Dr. Harley has said this is very common for wayward wives, but wayward husband's should show the regret.

Have you confirmed no contact between her and OM?

How much UA time are you getting?

There seems to be some back story missing here. I think you need to start again and give us details about this affair, and tell us what makes you think that it has ended. Since you mention the need to move away, this suggests that OM lives quite close to you. Is that correct?

Who was he - a colleague? A neighbour? How did they conduct their affair? Did they go to hotels? Does she travel for work? Did they use their homes?

How did the affair end? How did you discover the affair?

Hi MEssy, your story is missing background, but the above comment is an indicator the affair is still active. Is there a reason you believe it is over? Do you have actual proof it is over? How close do you live to the OM?

Ok, so I've been reading here for weeks, and fighting the urge go into details, because there's just so many, and fear she'll find my posts and be upset for telling the world. But after watching the events of the 'caught snooping' thread unfold and seeing the similarities I've decided it would be best for me and my marriage if I seek wisdom here.

Here's the backstory you requested:
Wife confessed to feelings for one of my best friends after I pushed, initially, she denied feelings and said the emotional disconnect between us was because she was unhappy with me. This was early September '16. I was devastated, obviously, and went into a severe bout of anxiety/depression. About a week after she confessed these feelings, but told me she wanted to work on us and would change how she was around OM, so as to not make me jealous or hurt, I confronted OM and told him to end any 1 on 1 communication. Due to him being my best friend and both of them being so involved in our church, I foolishly trusted them. Fast forward 4 weeks, I finally got hard evidence that it was an EA, hundreds of texts over a 3 day family vacation and many hours on the phone over the previous weeks. I confronted WW with the evidence, said I know she was having an affair, I told her I wanted to work on things, but she needed to choose, me or him. She choose me and agreed to counseling. I agreed that we would continue our church activities with OM for a week (not knowing the severity of the addiction). After that week she agreed to no contact, and began adjusting work schedule so they wouldn't see each other (worked together). A week and a half later, my tracking indicated she was at his house. I drove there and caught them together, both saying the 'just needed to talk'. It was the day of our first counseling session and she wanted to make sure they were on the same page, cause she knew I'd take it hard when she told me they had discussed their feelings for each other. At this point I was so devastated and hurt I went full exposure. My family, Her family, our friends, and our pastors. (she resents exposure btw).

Since exposure she went into a depressed state, and was only doing counseling cause she had too. Our counselor gave us SAA, which WW stopped reading because it gave me too much "control". She is holding onto resentment for our physical relationship, my lack of parenting, and selfishness. I fully own my part in creating the vulnerability of the affair, I had a porn addiction and was selfish with my time which affected my parenting and her free time. The addiction was outted 6 years ago, but I still struggled off and on with it, however I'm 6 mos completely sober now and have taking drastic steps to stay that way. Also, I've fully changed my behavior to eliminate my 'taker'.

Now I'm trying my best to be in full plan A while she decides if staying is what she really wants. I struggled with not wanting SF from her and that was definitely a LB if I tried anything. Also my anxiety went berserk, and I learned I used sex as my drug for anxiety - dealing with social anxiety stress, and anxiety that we were growing apart and needing to be wanted (I'm an anxious attacher, if you've read much on attachment theory). Anyway, I started anti-anxiety meds and that has helped, within the last month I can manage it such that I'm no longer letting it turn into AO or DJ.

I guess bottom line, I'm struggling to stay positive in plan A, it's been 4 months of NC, but she was so devastated and depressed having to give up both OM and her fulfilling job that she has just barely started to come out of the fog. What I'm struggling with is patience, I know its worth it to be patient, but I just am starving for some of my top ENs to be fulfilled, basically I just want to be wanted again. So that wears on me and I have to fight LBs hard as I try to make her take some more positive actions and 'speed up'.

Appreciate advice so I can ensure I'm doing everything possible to restore the marriage.

ML - I am fairly confident affair is over, I had tracking for a few months, plus access to her phone, and she has friends to hold her accountable to NC as well.

I'll also add that the last month has shown improvements, which is why I believe she's coming out of the fog (albeit slowly), however it was early Oct since last contact, so for her to start coming out of the fog has been good. My evidence of 'out of the fog' is improved attitude (not as irritable), more attentive to household and kids, we've had numerous dates and a weekend away that went very well, great UA and IC on those dates. Less arguing/LB. I guess it's just my anxiety that is driving me nuts to have her say she is committed, when in reality I'll know it when she shows it... I'm just struggling with feelings of 'you messed this up, you better take action to fix it' instead of being stuck trying to win her back.

So neither you or your WW have ANY contact with OM?

Has she quit her job?

Have you quit going to shared church?

Are you making plans to move?

What kind of tracking did you have? Does this indicate that you are no longer keeping tabs on her?

It generally only takes a couple weeks for a WS to start coming out of the fog, if there really is true 100% no contact.

I suspect that there was lingering contact for much longer than you think.

You also sound like you continue to lovebust through AO's and DJ's, and 'arguing' in general.

You need to STOP the lovebusting.

You will NOT win her back if you lovebust her, you will only make the OM look like a far better option.

Yes, neither of us have any contact with OM.
She quit her job at shared church (source of much depression, because she finally had an identity outside of being a mom)
Yes, we quit going to shared church. This is a huge issue and why I think the fog has lingered, she really resents exposure because she had to quit and we left the church. All of her friends and "people" we at the church. She still has constant contact with a few close friends who go there and I know it gets talked about a lot. Also she continued to see things and photos of OM on social media relative to church. It took her a few weeks to disconnect from her social media links to the church. Even though she will say it we cant go back, I know she really wants to go back. We have found another church we like, but its too painful for her to attend at this time, I'm not pushing it because its a LB for her if I try to.
Yes, we are discussing moving about 25-30 miles away, but we are not financially ready to move just yet. I've mentioned numerous times to move much farther, but she doesn't want to leave friends and family.

Tracking was via the phone. She resented it because I had an AO on our anniversary when she stayed out all day and said she was headed home, but stopped at the mall on her way... after that incident we had a new tracking app so she could watch me as well and she did it begrudgingly, it brewed resentment for me cause it felt like a 'punishment'. It also increased my anxiety because I was constantly watching. We discussed how it made both of us feel and since stopped using it. She is good about telling me her plans for the day and checking in when she moves from one place to another.

Yes, I need to stop lovebusting. I went into a severe bout of depression/anxiety and did a terrible job of managing LB. I would do well, but then something would happen that would trigger my anxiety or fear of her leaving and I'd lose it. The last 4-5 weeks my medication has kicked in and I'm really adapting the mindset of "love is patient". It felt unfair that I had to win her back, after I was the one that was hurt, and I let my anger and pain from the hurt interfere. Which is why I turned here, I need help keeping the mindset of plan A. It wears down when my ENs and love bank are not getting filled.

This is not NC.

Continuing to follow OM on social media or hear about him from friends, will keep her perpetually in the fog. This is one reason she has not fully withdrawn from him yet. This will keep him front and center of mind for both of you, and will prevent recovery from even beginning.

Monitoring someone after an affair is very important. This is because affairs are so addictive, it is very difficult to stay away from the high. Unfortunately, simply having a tracking device on her phone that she knows about, is not enough to prevent her from seeking out that high. It is very easy to circumvent.

For the record, both my H and I have tracking devices on our phones and use them without each other's knowledge whenever we want. I harbor no resentment for this AT ALL, I welcome him to track my whereabouts whenever he wants to. What about that makes you feel resentful?

Here is what I hear...."yes, I need to stop lovebusting. BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH" because NONE of those are acceptable reasons or excuses for your abuse. AO's are abusive. AO's and DJ's are NOT in line with Plan A. What you are telling me is that you have never done Plan A. Filling needs while also lovebusting to this extent, is like putting rocks in a bucket with a giant hole in the bottom. It is no wonder she is unsure of whether to invest in the marriage.

She's owns the affair. You own your lovebusting.

Just STOP.

Agreed. She blocked him on all social media accounts, unfortunately I can't control if her friends talk about OM, I'd like to believe they dont because they know the issue, I've tried to bring up my concerns with her friends, but she gets extremely angry and defensive. I think my concern is she still hears very much about the church which is a sore wound. She despises that we had to leave the church, granted she owns her decisions caused this to happen, she's just not letting go of the church.

Resentment was on her part, she resented that I needed to "control" her. For me, knowing I could track her was perpetuating my anxiety, I couldn't focus if she was driving somewhere, I'd just watch it. Once we stopped, and it became simply communication of whereabouts that helped me relax and not obsess on it. Also, it gives us more reason to have positive communication during the day.

Completely agree. I've worked really hard and been successful the last 5 weeks of eliminating LB. Which I believe is why I'm seeing progress and having her start to de-fog.

Messy, there are a lot of RED FLAGS in your story and I would suggest upping your snooping. All this "resentment" is a sign of the FOG and that concerns me. Why is she fogged out? fog is a sign of an ongoing contact. Accusing you of "controlling" her just because you track her whereabouts is also a huge red flag. A normal person who has nothing to hide would not resent that because snooping would clear her good name. Just ask yourself if you "resent" your spouse checking on you? I sure don't. My husband sure doesn't.

Knowing where she is at all times is not "controlling." That is a ploy used by manipulative women to force her will.


This makes no sense at all. How can her self reporting about her whereabouts make you relax more than some good old fashioned snooping? Snooping on my husband helped me relax and helped me grow to TRUST him. Obviously, you can't trust her word, so how does that make you relax? An illusion?

ML - this is exactly where I'm struggling. She's convinced I was controlling, objectified her (selfish with SF), and a negligent father. All gaslighting as far as I'm concerned, because according to her it's been this way for years and she was unhappy, but never could communicate it to me, or anyone else for that matter. Which is why I know its gaslighting, it wasn't until she had a point of comparison that she determined it to be her unhappiness. She has valid reasons (my addiction, anxiety, and selfishness) but spends way too much time focused on that to justify it. IMO, she had decided she was done, but is only staying because the consequences of leaving were too severe, and so she felt she needed to 'show up' to the marriage.

I agree, I need to increase my snooping, however, snooping drives my anxiety up (cause I expect to find things) and it triggers significant anxiety about her calling it quits. It may be hard to understand if you haven't struggled with anxiety, but I've found it's healthier for me to have a more "I don't care approach" to snooping. Yes, I fully acknowledge I run the risk of more D-days, but I haven't been able to snoop and successfully manage my anxiety which in turn makes it hard for me to fully plan A, because I can't turn off the anxious thoughts of her leaving, so I struggle with a need to seek reassurance that she will stay which drives her away. I need to work on it, because I don't want to get caught flat footed by a FR.

Hence, why I started this post, she wont say that she's committed to working on the marriage, she will only say that right now she wants to try and work on things, but I know deep down, shes trying to decide if she wants to deal with the consequences of leaving. Her statement last week was "I'm not sure what we have was ever good, or could ever be fulfilling"...

I've found if I don't go near relationship talks and just 'act like all is normal' things go the best for us. So that's what I'm trying to do, full on plan A. But if feels to me like we are just ignoring the issues at hand, but maybe that's good? I don't know, that's why I need your help.

That sounds like a conflict avoidance strategy to me. How can it increase your anxiety if you confirm - without her knowing - that she is being faithful? Does it give you anxiety because you know you will catch her doing something? And you would rather not know?


I don't think your goal of staying married at all cost is helping your marriage. She seems to understand you have no standards and only want to keep her around at any cost. This smacks of unconditional love which leads to neglect and abuse. She never will have any motivation to work on the marriage because she knows you will accept her on any basis no matter what.

What would happen if she left you? I predict that is what you are facing because she is clearly checked out of this marriage.

Wow. Dr. Harley's snooping recommendations actually decrease anxiety through a technique called "flooding." He says to snoop until snooping is boring because you'll never find anything.

If there's a current affair going on you need to gather evidence and expose it.

If there's not a current affair going on you need to snoop until bored, at which point snooping will not cause you anxiety any more.


If there's an active affair going on and you can't Plan A then you need to move to Plan B (and likely give up your marriage) or get medicine to help you be able to Plan B. Get some Paxil or similar for anxiety/panic.

You can't just skip the most important steps because they make you anxious. If you want to survive the affair, these are the things that have to be done. If you aren't going to do them then you should just go ahead and move to Plan B and give up and move on with your life and your own personal recovery.

Ok, I think I didnt give enough details. I snooped for 3 months and didn't find anything, tracking, cell bills, internet history, cell phone etc. no trace of a burner or anything. No unplanned money etc. I will look into increased snooping, I'll look at the snooping thread for more info.

I do think your right, she refuses to work on anything and anytime I bring up a potential conflict she try's to turn it back on me and won't problem solve it. That's been my biggest frustration all along, she would rather just avoid doing anything and mope or just pretend nothing happened. She does this with any hard conflict and just won't deal with it.

I guess I'm looking for advice, we have four kids and I really want to save the marriage, but it just feels like she's checked out and would rather pretend things are fine, cause it's comfy.

What kind of lifestyle does have? Does she go out alone with friends? What does your typical week look like?

She is a SAHM, we have 4 kids. So about one day a week she goes out with friends in the evening, and she sees them during the day probably once or twice during the week.

In our typical week, she gets 3 of 4 kids to school and then has a few hours during the day with DD4 to do her things before its time to get the kids. Then I work till dinner"ish" time, and lately we have been going to the gym as a family after dinner 2 nights a week, then get the kids in bed and her and I have an hour or 2 to get some UA time in or watch TV together. Weekends usually entail getting things done around the house or doing something fun with the kids. I've been intentional about trying to get us a date night out of the house at least every other week, with an 'in-house' date on the weekends... watching a movie, or doing something together.

This hit home for me ML. I think my fear of losing her is unhealthy. It's difficult, because I don't want to throw away what we have or our family, but I've always just acquiesced to what she wants to do because I want to make her happy. Something I've been trying to overcome during this event is the feeling of unworthiness, that she wouldn't have picked me had she not been pregnant. The other fear is the consequences if we end, the pain for the kids, shared custody, shame of getting a D, and the financial setback.

But last night I did some serious thinking and I think you are right, my approach has been 'save it at all costs', and she's taking advantage of that. I also think my failure point is that when we talk about things, I end up getting hurt or emotional and then my reaction is to try to get things to change is to make ME feel better, and she just resists it, cause its what I want.

I am willing to end it, but the costs just seem too great to me, but I'm paying the price emotionally for that...

I appreciate any advice.

What are AO's and DJ's? Where can find the list of abbreviations? Thank you.

This is spot on. So far (thanks to you guys!) I'm realizing that my playing along with her avoiding personality is doing nothing for us to actually fix the issues, we are superficially getting along better, but its not really filling either of our ENs.

What do you think of this plan... She stopped reading SAA because she felt like it gave me 'control' to move our family (something I've wanted to do anyway), but she doesn't want to. I've tried to get her to read HNHN since it was less of a 'punishment' for the A, but that hasn't gotten anywhere, she just refused to do it or ignores it, and if I push she gets agitated.
So, I'm thinking tonight I'd like to sit down with her and request that we start reading either SAA or HNHN together, with the explanation that I want us to have a thriving, fulfilling marriage, and that I believe the methods in the books will help us get there. Also, that it's important to me that we address the issues and not ignore them, for fear that we'll end up with a superficial marriage like we had before the A (since she never expressed her unhappiness, and I would express mine, but we never made any real change and I would ignore it, or over-compensate to fix it alone).

Please let me know what you think?

Also, I think the gaps I have in snooping are: if OM came to the house when I was at work, she had a burner, or they contact via data app (i.e. snapchat) and delete it so I wouldn't notice. I can eliminate the first two with a VAR and cam, but I need suggestions on how to covertly track the cell.

If her phone is an iphone, it remembers where it was and when.
Just innocently ask to use her phone for whatever or sneak a look snd go to:

Settings > privacy > location services > system services > frequent locations > history

There you will find all locations she visited more than a few minutes. If you tip on the location, it will show you when and how long she was there.
If location services or frequent locations are turned off, turn them on.

Thanks happyheart, I'll try it. Webwatcher isn't good enough because she stopped backing up to icloud...

ML - where is this quote from, I'd like to read more.

Here you go! http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2311122#Post2311122

Awesome! Thank you!

Also, what is your opinion of requesting WW to start reading HNHN or SAA together again? With my reasoning being that I want to create romantic love and restore our marriage, and I believe in the MB program.

Some other updates, as part of the fallout of the A we quit attending church, it's been 5 months now and the kids ask almost every weekend if we are going, and they talk about the old church. We've found a new church we both like but we've only gone twice because WW 'isn't there yet', when I ask almost every weekend. I've been avoiding anything that could 'rock the boat' so I just drop it if she says no, but it doesn't sit right with me and its important for me to have the kids back into a church. I sent a text to WW today, saying that I'm planning to go to church this weekend and I'd love to go as a family. Her response was 'maybe... I'll think about it'. I responded with 'thank you! just let me know, I'm planning to go either way'. I decided I need to just do what is right for me and the kids and not let her control me with conflict or anger to make me feel bad about upsetting her. I hope this wasn't a mistake!! thoughts?

POJA would dictate that you make a decision which benefits both of you, a win/win.

Instead what you have done is independent behavior. You basically told her "I am taking the kids to church whether you like it or not, you can come if you want but I am going either way regardless of how you feel."

You need to open the idea of church up for negotiation.

Ok thanks for pointing this out. I haven't said anything about the kids going or not, and every time I've asked recently, she has told me she's fine with me going without her. I guess when she gives me her answer (and hopefully its just that she'll go) we can discuss taking the kids. I'll simply request that I'd like to take the kids and see if she agrees to that or not, if not, I wont take them. I also wont say anything to the kids until I've finalized the agreement with her. Still working on the POJA practice...

POJA also covers whether you go to church on your own, though. It isn't just about whether you take the kids.

I suggest you think about whether your going to church without her is a good idea at all. I have no idea whether church is a point of contention between you, but if it is, you cannot resolve it by simply going alone when she doesn't want to go. You must not behave independently - doing whatever you want to do as if she wasn't there.

How does she feel about your going to church?

The last few times I've asked to go, she's told me repeatedly that she didn't mind if I went without her. But I didn't want to really go without her.

Church was previously a point of contention for us, as I had requested numerous times to dial back our involvement but it was non-negotiable from her end. I also felt that she was puffed up and moderately manipulated to be involved there. This is where previously the POJA would have been helpful, I didn't want the involvement increased, but it did, at what now is obviously a major expense, however it resulted in many AO/DJ from both sides... I believe there's still anger and resentment for that issue which is spilling over into her 'not being there yet'. Also, since the A caused her to give it all up, she told me 'you got what you wanted' as if some how I was to blame because I exposed it. Anyway, it's a very sensitive topic for us, so, she avoids any talk of it unless I bring it up.

Have you eliminated all AOs?

Yes, none in over a month and even before that they were not frequent. Not that it makes much of a difference how frequent. My struggle is DJ, I struggle to resist sometimes when WW try's to pick a fight if we are talking about things. I'm making a serious effort to eliminate them. And haven't in over 2 weeks

Do you have the book Love Busters and read the chapter on DJs?

What do you think is the best thing for your marriage at this stage, given that she is withdrawn from you because of her affair, and won't go? This is probably not the only pace that she won't go with you.

Is it best to take her at her word and go without her? My worry is that she wants you to go, partly because it gets you away from her, and partly because she doesn't care what you do.

Your task is to try and rebuild closeness with her. I'm not convinced that following anything separately from her is the right thing, at this time.

I think I agree I'll just wait until she's ready.

Do you guys think it's ok to ask for her phone? Im afraid it's love bank withdrawal...

I was able to get the phone for a min this morn, checked frequent locations and all of them were good, places she told me she had been.

WW is headed to a new counselor this morning, I pray she is helpful, WW has some major wounds to heal from and I hope as she heals she lets me back in.

That is good! How were you able to sneak it away? Would you be able to get it longer and slip some spyware on it?


This is not good news, unfortunately. Counselors are very destructive to marriages, especially when there has been an affair.

I swiped it for just a min while she was in he shower, but she peeked as soon as I made some noise. I didn't get caught though. I need to get the iCloud to backup so webwatcher will work. She's crazy protective of her phone, even takes it when she gets up to go to the bathroom at night. It's got me suspicious, obviously. She views me taking the phone as controlling and an invasion of privacy.

I tend to agree about the counsellors, but I have high hopes for this one. Ww has never really dealt with some major things in her past, getting pregnant at 17, my porn addiction, now this. Also, given that she is an avoidant personality she would avoid it if it weren't for counseling. However there's the obvious risk that she gets validation and is encouraged to be her own person... We shall see.

We'll see what comes of the church request.

Also, another big issue is that she has an aversion to SF. We never communicated about it in the past and she built up a resentment to it, and obviously now is using that to demonize me. I'm not sure how to work thru that other than we agreed to abstain until she desires it again. But it's pretty painful to hear your spouse tell you she doesn't desire SF with you... Ugh, and before getting on board with MB I was clingy and needy in that area which has just made it worse, I used it to reassure myself... I've been really changed the last 4 or 5 weeks, but there is no affection or anything from her, I guess this is the part of plan a that is the endurance time... Any advice in that area is much appreciated

This is a huge red flag.

People who have nothing to hide do not behave this way.

Recovery from an affair starts with NC and creating an environment which makes rekindling the affair next to impossible. This is done by creating EP's (extraordinary precautions) to safeguard your marriage. Here is the list Dr Harley provides in Surviving an Affair. I don't see that it has been posted to you before, but can you please tell us what has been done on this list? Clearly 'provide technical accountability' has NOT.

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

People who have nothing to hide, don't hide. She is obviously hiding something.


That is great..........for the "counselors" bank account!! But it will just make your situation worse. I agree it is a cash cow for counselors but dragging up the past just makes the present WORSE. It will hurt your marriage and your wife.


Right, it is because she is not emotionally attached you and is hiding something. Her lovebank is closed to you because it is open to someone else.

I would put money on the fact that she is still communicating with her AP, or she has other SSL behavior she is hiding from you.

There are just too many red flags here to think otherwise.

here

here

here

Here
Beware of Bad Counselors

Thanks for all the info! I'll be reading thru it today. Sorry, it's harder for me to respond on weekends.

ML- as far as the list, the only two things she hasn't done is the letter and we haven't moved (yet). Technical accountability is a partial, she will let me look at her phone but it's always uncomfortable. I have access to all her email and social media accounts. She's blocked OM on all of it. None the less I too am concerned there is ongoing contact given the continued disconnect and unwillingness to fight for us. So I will be installing some VARs this week.

I do think she had just decided she was done with me, OM is not really an option right now, he as first child due in a month or so, and if they tried to get together both would have to give up literally everything and everyone in their life, so it's impractical, but I also understand the power of addiction. I think WW is just too stubborn to come back yet and has demonized me, hence why i have to change that via plan A.

With regards to the conselor, WW came home very enthusiastic about her, and was very talkative and in a good mood all day, she asked if we could go out for lunch, so we went out and did some shopping together, it ended up being a great day,. Adding in some great family time in the evening and a movie for WW and I. I'm optimistic that this counselor will be a good fit, she has personal history with WW and knows about the issues surrounding the pregnancy at 17. I think why WW needs to deal with it is because she's in this spot of thinking she had always done what "everyone said was best", hence marrying me for financial security etc, it's as if she's having a full blown midlife crisis. I hope and pray that as I continue to deposit into her love bank she'll start to see she did it because she wanted to and because she loved me, not just because people told her too or she felt pressured to.

I don't know, I can completely see how counsellors can be bad, in fact we are ending our couples counseling because it was bad, although that's how we found MB, but WW hasn't been this close to her old self in months... Maybe it's helping?

Thanks for all the advice! Time to go make some love bank deposits

She is in complete defiance of the checklist: _____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

She still HAS social media. And a wetbrain could "unblock" the OM in 2 seconds flat. Nor do you even know if she has ended contact because she keeps her phone hidden frm you. Showing you her phone is a meaningless gesture because she can delete and hide anything.

The goal of the checklist is transparency and she is hiding things. I get real concerned when I see BS's engaging in a check the box exercise to make themselves feel better when their WS is obviously not going along with the program. You just told us yesterday that:



The fact that she came home in a good mood does not mean the session was good for your marriage, though. The problem with individual counselors is that they help the client achieve her personal goals, regardless of its impact on the marriage. For example, if they are coaching someone in an affair, they would help that person pursue the affair and get out of her marriage.

I am not trying to be a downer, but you should not imagine that her counseling is going to help your marriage. It is not. She is not there to help her marriage. And talking about the tragedies of the past is damaging to your wife and your marriage.

I can tell you why it is uncomfortable. Your WW is deleting things off her phone that she does not want you to see, and then she is handing it over so you can see that she is not hiding anything. The reason it is uncomfortable, is because she is nervous that maybe she forgot something that you will find. I am guessing she hands it over to you, but stays very close even looking over your shoulder nervously, and takes it away as quickly as possible.

This is not even close to technical accountability.....

This is irrelevant. Oh how we wish that waywards were inclined to care about important events like the birth of a first child. But they're not. What they care about is getting a fix.

He is still an option, and even if it is not a practical option to the average person, the wayward brain does not care about rational practical decision making. You ARE underestimating the power of the addiction.

Threadjack to say I think unwritten is one of the best, most consistent posters on this forum. We are lucky to have her!

First child is a red flag, men who expect their first born are prone to having affairs. A former BF contacted me while his wife was pregnant with their first. I didn't know he had a wife and we rekindled, so I was the affair partner. I was devastated and cut off contact.

After their second child was born, I was notified he checked my LinkedIn profile several times. Before, I was certain this wouldn't happen to me in a million years. But I was tempted.

Don't underestimate the toxicity of an affair. His wife is most probably not at her best meeting his needs at this moment. It only takes one weak moment.

I'm sufficiently convinced that contact is ongoing, hence the VARs. Not sure what else I can do except monitoring software.

WW has been uncharacteristically short with me lately, which also fuels my concern about ongoing contact.

Also, She has told me that she doesn't understand why I need covenant eyes, that if I was truly better i wouldn't need it... She said I just have it so I can tell her I want to see her phone. *rolleyes*. Maybe tonight I'll just ask to see her phone...

She hints that it's weak to use covenant eyes, but happily scowers the reports every week...

Honestly this is just tiring, it's been 5 months since discovery and I'm struggling to stay motivated, my love bank is draining I fear...

Is covenant eyes a keylogger? And I take it she is aware of it?

i would stop doing that. It is a useless gesture and just causes conflict for absolutely no legitimate reason.

Good point, I haven't asked for it in a while and didn't last night.

Covenant eyes is a monitoring software for mature porn, she gets reports of my activity every week

Well, some good news/bad news. WW was very agreeable to go to church yesterday and it was seemingly great, all the kids were happy to be going. The sermon is related to relationships, and it was something I wish I had heard 10 years ago, about not being selfish, and leaving behind old ways of only watching out for yourself. Anyway at one point the pastor made mention of being in a marriage to serve your spouse and put their needs above yours, she became angry at this, to the point where she actually pushed my hand away during prayer, instead of holding hands like we normally do...

I could obviously tell she was upset, and didn't want to bring it up with the kids in the car. I just asked if she was ok, and she said 'not really'. Well, my valentines day gift had come in the mail, so I wrote her a very long note, highlighting that I'm committed to changing and meeting her needs, and that I took a lot away from the sermon, and that I'm waiting patiently for her and reminiscing a bit too since we first started dating around valentines day. I left the note and the gift on the bed for her and told her there was something waiting for her and went about cleaning the house/laundry.

I gave her some time alone with the note and gift and then went in to see her (she loved the gift btw!). We sat down to start talking a little bit, and she finally said if she's being honest with herself, she's angry. She didn't go into details about why, but I assumed its a mixture of things, but she's primarily angry with me. Angry that I didn't meet her needs for so many years, angry that I exposed things, angry about what she's done and the consequences.

I told her its difficult for me that she's so laser focused on what I did or didn't do to meet her needs for so long, I told her it feels like she's justifying what she did and not will to see all the good that we had. I apologized again for the way I didn't meet her needs in the past and that I see it now and I'm committed to changing. She acknowledged that she sees the changes and that she needs to work through her anger. Which is what shes doing with her new counselor. We talked for a bit longer and it was very 'emotion free' even though I was struggling with wanting to say 'you don't get to be angry', but I was able to maintain a non LB state and we talked through it proactively. She agreed that she needs to work on her anger, which is waaay more than shes said to date. She also gave me a real hug and kiss before she left for a few min to drive so she could clear her head before we went out with friends last night. Again this morning I got a real hug (better than any since discovery) where it actually felt like she wanted to hug me, not because I initiated things.

Sorry for the rambling, but I'm slightly optimistic, she seems like she's moving out of the fog and into the 'work on it' stage... praying its real!

Does she have a habit of driving to clear her head? Or did she want to talk to someone on the phone without being heard?

Did you mention in your note that you do not agree with this?

It is not unusual for pastors to give sermons about sacrifice. This is not in line with MB at all, Dr Harley does not believe in sacrificing for your spouse as it creates resentment in the marriage. Instead he believes in win/win solutions where everybody is happy and nobody has to sacrifice.

Pray to God but row for the shore.

There are many red flags here, it is NOT real if there is still contact with the AP going on. What sources of spyware do you still have in place? Do you have a VAR in her car?

T/J to say thank you to MelodyLane, you are too kind

Yes, with 4 kids in the house there is never a quiet spot to hide, and when she tries to get some time alone one of them seeks her out. So this is not abnormal for either of us.

When we talked I made a point to say that the pastor specifically gave an example where this being one sided is unhealthy and thats if that the case at somepoint that person wakes up and says 'what about my needs'. Which is basically what happened with us, except instead of communicating unmet needs to me, it happened with OM...

I also added that I don't think that's healthy, that it should be a mutual desire to meet each others needs, without having to sacrifice, but yes, it's probably worth re-iterating the MB principles here.

Just got the VAR today, its going in the car as an experiment, if it works well I'll add more to the house, if any of the VAR data raises my suspicion I'll add video capability.

I'm in a hope, but verify state.

That is sensible.

Totally agree!! Love unwritten!!

Do you have any spyware on her devices?

So I guess with days, come bad days...

Just really struggling today, had a conversation with WW and I struggle with my communication being perceived as DJ. It's hard because she's telling me she's angry, and I say yea that makes sense, but if I tell her what I'm feeling, she interprets it as trying to change her opinion. She also let me in on more of her counseling discussion, and how she's thinking she got married because she wanted everything to look good, despite the real issues that existed. So now I'm stuck, waiting for her to decide if she wants to save the marriage, or if she got married for all the wrong reasons and now has to 'do something for herself'... I don't know maybe I'm catastrophizing her words, and maybe she just needs to work through those feelings if they exist and not just ignore them. I guess for me its just devastating to hear what she is saying... this is hard, and it sucks to be hurting so badly on valentines day, somehow I have to manage to get myself back in a good mood so I can plan A.

Thanks for reading through my venting session.

No, I haven't been able to.

Also, a fun point was made, that all my plan A efforts just make her angry. She said it feels like a competition to see will get the dishes done first now. Feels like I just can't win.

Sorry, I know I'm complaining a lot today...

Some new updates...

First off, after re-reading my posts from the other day I was just distraught from a hard conversation with WW, I was thinking I was being empathetic and acknowledging her feelings as legitimate, however she still felt I was trying to dismiss them since I brought up my feelings. I since apologized and told her I see her perspective and said my feelings are real as well, but that shouldn't mean I try to change her point of view. It's my own stubbornness to not try and solve the problem when logic is so clear that she's fogged...after that things settled down.

I also informed WW that I've been working on my anxiety and insecurities and that I feel I'm in a place where I don't need to use her to cope with anxiety or compensate for insecurities. I told her I'm fighting to save our marriage because I love her and I believe we can have something amazing and that God will use this to refine us into the people He made us to be and we'll have an amazing fulfilling marriage.

At this she told me that her counselor has suggested she have some time alone to get some clarity of thought to figure out what she really wants. I asked if she meant a separation, she said no, just some time to reflect and determine what she wants. After I told her I'm confident in what I want, she said that she owes it to me to as confident as I am, and be 'all in' to saving the marriage, she plans to use this 'alone time' to do some soul searching to see if she can overcome the past (i.e. what I did wrong). Not sure how supportive of the I should be?

Also, it's got me thinking I need to start prepping for plan b. any advice is much appreciated.

Know that when a wayward wants "alone time" or "space" to think things out, what she is really asking for is for you to leave her alone to continue her affair in peace.

Don't make disrespectful judgements of her desire to be left alone, and don't debate her, but don't leave her alone either. Continue with Plan A until you are in Plan B.

Did I read right that you've been at this 5 months?
Dr. Harley recommends at least 6 months of Plan A for men. He sometimes encourages men to go longer -- you might want to talk to him about that and see if it would be good in your case.

Know that most WW do not respond to Plan B very well. It should be the absolute last step you take, because it will likely end your marriage. Are you feeling like you can't take it anymore? Is all this beginning to affect your health?

A WW that gets angry over Plan A efforts is a good thing It irritates her when you make lovebank deposits, because it doesn't fit with the narrative in her mind that you are a monster. Ignore the anger, and continue with the Plan A efforts despite it.

She hasn't yet said what she wants to do for her alone time, I told her to determine what it was that she wanted to do and we'd discuss it.

Yes, it will be 6 mos in a few weeks. I started AD's a few months into this and that has stabilized my health, otherwise I was going waste away to nothing or lose my job. Still the emotional roller coaster is exhausting for me.

My thinking is that if WW gets her alone time she might come back and want a D, at which point I'll probable go into plan B, maybe not? still plan A until the D is final?

Don't discuss it. And don't leave her alone. Continue with Plan A until you are in Plan B.

As long as you are doing okay physically, and as long as you are able to remain calm and not lose control of your emotions, you can continue Plan A. You can probably Plan A until the divorce is final.

Given that you are at the 6 months mark, though, write Dr. Harley and get his advice on whether you should continue with Plan A or go straight to Plan B. He sometimes tells men to go longer, and sometimes tells them to go to Plan B.

In the end, it's really up to you. No one would blame you if you went to Plan B and just moved on with your life.

I struggle with not honoring her request for alone time. I've been waiting for 5 months for her to start engaging in the healing process, so far she's basically been stuck in the fog and depression, she's now putting real energy into healing, and the first step for her is to make a decision if she wants to recover our marriage. I'm optimistic that her time away would result in a decision to move forward with recovery or move on with a D.

The anxiety of living in limbo, waiting for her to decide to engage is a terrible thing to endure, but I certainly don't want to enable the A...

Wanting time alone is NOT a step toward healing your marriage. Nothing good comes from a WW taking time away by herself. She is not putting energy into healing, she is running away from you and towards her affair.

If you let her go away by herself, you will be sending the message loud and clear that she's not worth pursuing.

So, don't debate her on her desire to get away. Don't discuss it. But, don't leave her alone either. Plan A is your best bet to turning this around (and you won't be able to Plan A if she's off by herself).

Thanks, I won't discuss it. Hopefully she can come to a conclusion on her own without a need to go on some type of sabbatical.

you don't want to tell her that, just lure her into spending time with you by making offers she can't refuse...

So I haven't been able to get move past the need for alone time. I'm getting a strong, disconnected vibe from her and even when we embrace, it feels more like a pity embrace, like she's doing it cause she knows she's about to hurt me by telling me she's done.

I don't know what to do, she's an avoidant personality, is afraid to act on it so she is dragging this out, I just cant see how she'll say she wants to stay, there isn't any love headed my way, just pity or empathy I guess. I fear she's convinced herself she's done and is just working up the courage to end it.

Last night it was all I could do to not call her out on it, and tell her I can tell she is done, but I didn't, still trying to stay in plan A. But the suspense is killing me, I am really struggling to maintain plan A when I feel like she's done and just doesn't have the courage to tell me.

Should I bring it up? I need advice please, also I'm thinking maybe I should talk to Dr. Harley, what's the best way to get in touch with him?

thanks in advance.

It is normal and natural for women to fall in love with men they do not initially like, when they meet their emotional needs and are persistent and not deterred by their obvious rejection. Happens all the time.

Persistence.

Thought I'd provide an update and seek some adivice, still managing plan A as best I can. WW is somewhat responsive, but still not committed or ready to actively work on the marriage. She is content to stay where we currently are in this stage of limbo. She's not willing to commit to me or the marriage yet, so I'm still the only one actively working on improving things. SShe makes almost zero LB deposits for me. She hasn't had her 'away' time yet, and though we've talked about it, she still doesn't know that if she gets it, she'll be able to make a decision.

All indications are that the A is still over (VAR, electronic records). But there's always a chance they've been able to hide it...

I'm still struggling with DJ (unintentional) when we have conversations about where things are. The pain of living with the woman you love and living together as if nothing is wrong but knowing she doesn't love you and is trying to decide if she wants to end things is unbearable at times, and it comes out in the form of DJ to try and get her to move out of her indecision in order to gain closure. I'm really struggling with this area, I'm not sure how to manage that emotion all the time. It usually comes out as me either shutting down, or trying to get her to meet my key ENs (though shes unwilling to) which then turns into a DJ or AO because she just is stuck and I'm frustrated that I can't get her to take action. Any suggestions?

At this point its been 7 months of plan A, now I fully acknowledge I haven't been perfect these 7 months, mostly in the form of DJ as a result of the emotional pain of the A being toxic and seeping out. However, I've corrected many of primary issues she cited that lead to the vulnerability for the A. I'm 7+ months sober from porn, really involved with the kids and around the house. Bottom line is WW doesn't feel love towards me, but is mostly feeling resentment and anger, and isn't sure if she can let go of the past. During any discussion she response to my DJ's with long, venomous rewrites of the past, focusing on negatives.

At this point I feel like my options are as follows:
1) Continue plan A and STOP the DJ (something I need to figure out, because the pain keeps causing me to try and 'fix' things)

2) Plan B

3) Request WW decide if she can recommit to the M and start working on MB and meeting each others EN by XX date, and if she can't Plan B.

Thoughts?

Well some things have changed for the better since the last post.

First off, I was able to find new resolve to maintain plan A, now focused even more on being myself and eliminating LB.

Secondly, and more importantly, after an issue yesterday we talked briefly and then decided together to wait until emotions had died to continue the conversation. I took the time to refocus and study SAA again and when we talked about things later, I was able to explain the issue in terms of LB and basically said there is so much anger on both sides right now that I would like to start working on MB again and trying to figure out how we can get over the LB.

At that point, I told WW that it's been 7 months, and that we've been caught in a cycle for most of it, where things are 'ok' for a few weeks, (because we ignore the issues) and then something triggers a skirmish that escalates quickly and results in many LB on both sides. I said I'm ready to find greatness with her and made the request that we start working through the recovery section of SAA. I ended the conversation there and waited until this morning to bring it up again, requesting that she take some time to think about my request and let me know. Here's the good news... She said yes! She's agreed to start working through SAA I can sense the reluctancey, but she's at least said she will.

This is great news for me, now I know the proof will be in the follow through and I need to manage a pace that is comfortable for her and allows us both to fully implement the MB.

So now my question is this, should I order the LB book, or is the info in SAA sufficient? BTW, we also have HNHN & Fall in Love, stay in love.

Thanks!

Yes, you should get Lovebusters. And you should get He Wins, She Wins. HNHN is only 1/3 of the program.

And Messy, you need to be listening to Dr. Harley's radio program, daily - you can get an app for your phone and listen. It's free. Have you heard it?