I wish I could make the subject longer, but I will do my best to clearly explain.

My wife and I have been married for close to 17 years, we have two boys - almost 15, and almost 11.
My wife has had a few bouts with depression / burnout in the past, and has been off work for the last few months with the last round.

In the fall she confided in me that she thinks she has fallen for another man - a former co-worker who is no longer part of her organization, but works in a related agency. She has had no contact since October, but admits that she still thinks of him. Their relationship was never physical, and she tells me that they never had a conversation, that she wouldn't have in front of her parents and mine. I don't know this person, but she tells me he is a married man, with two children, and has never done anything to encourage her. Two weeks ago she decided that she would like to separate and see if there is something between them. My instinct tells me this is a bad idea, and if I understand what I am reading here, I think this is a really bad idea now.

Now for my errors - which I openly own. I have not in the past been aware of the differences in emotional needs, and admit that I have neglected hers. Realizing this, I am willing to work on these to fulfill them to the best of my ability. Provided she will give me a chance. We had a joint session last week with a counselor who convinced my wife to stay in the house for a week, and observe if I do fulfill what I can (i.e. Domestic Support and Family Commitment) of which I know I dropped the ball in the past. I know it is early still - just a few days, but I think I am pulling my weight there. I plan to continue to do this, as in my eyes I have about 16 years of an imbalance to correct. I would like 16 years at least to correct this.

In regards to other emotional needs like conversation, etc, she doesn't wish to have any part of it as she is "too tired" and wants to work on herself only. This rules out spending time together. I totally am not expecting any physical contact, as I understand the fatigue. Although we do sleep in the same bed. Until the week before her announcement we still made love approximately once a week - which has been our normal balance since the boys were born.

I am torn in that I would like to give her the time to help her get healthier, but at the same time feel she doesn't want to entertain a rebuilding process now, or in the future, and is focused on the other man.

As it stands now, I believe my love bank is sitting close to zero, and if we were to separate, especially with her not in a healthy mental place she may try for something more from him and eventually regret it, and feel even more guilt than she feels now.

She decided to tell my parents yesterday that she is thinking about leaving me, and then left the room to be alone. After an hour, I went to check on her, and her response was to cry and repeat "it's too late". I am not sure if she was saying this to me - telling me it is too late, or saying it to herself to remind herself that it is too late.

I understand that this is a long post, and that I probably left out information that would be helpful, as this is my first time dealing with anything like this please ask away. My TLDR question is how can I help rebuild my love bank, if my wife is not willing / able to invest in the time needed for me to fulfill her emotional needs (conversation for example - time together - with no expectation of sex).

For now I am focusing on what I can do - work on myself, ensure that I don't have any Love Busters (and yes in the past I have had issues with those) and focus on the two needs I specified above.

Thank you.

If she is wayward I wouldn't believe a word she says. Your first course of action is to validate what she says. Time to get some intel by snooping.

Can you explain more when you say nothing has happened between them, he's married, yet she wants to separate to see if there is something between them? This doesn't sound logical. He's married and that would be a horrible thing to admit; knowing the pain it would inflict on this OM's wife and family.

I smell a rat for what it's worth.

Definitely a large well fed rat here. Do not make the mistake of asking her. That will just make her more careful. Your snooping needs to be done secretly. Do you have the password to her cellphone? If you do, get some spyware onto it. Test it on your phone first to make sure that there is no indication of what you have done.

Allan,
Your wife is probably in the midst of an affair. There is a "textbook" nature to affairs, and if you read the threads of the many who post on the "Surviving an Affair" section you will start to see the consistent playbook that wayward spouses use. Sorry, but this looks like a textboook case.

The first thing you need to understand is that when a spouse disengages and says things like, "I love you but I'm not in love with you anymore" it means they are having an affair. Secondly, when an affair is happening, the wayward spouse almost always lies. You cannot trust what they say, and you must snoop and verify your suspicions.

You already know that your wife is in love with someone else. But I think that she isn't being truthful about the full extent of the relationship. We've never seen a spouse separate unless an affair is already underway. And we've seen hundreds and hundreds of cases here.

Your first order of business is to snoop. Put spyware on her phone and computer. Hire a PI if you can. Find out more about what your wife is up to. That may seem like an invasion of privacy to you, but it is the first step in saving your marriage. Are you willing to snoop?

First, thank you for the replies.
Second, in regards to an affair, I would agree to an emotional one, not phsical. I understand, if this makes me sound silly, and I will explain why.
1 she has none, or very little time that is un-accounted for. Up until recently we car pooled to and from work together. She now car pools with a mutual female friend of ours, who works in her office and would not hide any information like this.
2 the man of interest left her team about 15 months ago, and now works a distance away (to far for lunch time meet-ups).
3 I understand that I come off as trusting, but telling about the feeling part, when in fact there was a physical aspect would be out of character, her guilt level always runs high, I beleive her current depression is a result of this guilt.
In regards to spyware on her phone, no can do, her only phone is work issued and controlled, I for example do not own a cell phone. Her social media accounts are generally left open on a computer in the kitchen, and we have never had anything to hide -I guess this makes that a lie.
I agree that her desire to see him and ask him if they hwve a future is horrible. I imagine the relationships this woul destroy. She has told me that he is not happy, which adds weight to your suspicoins.
So lets assume we are both right. An emotional affair, has occured, but not physical, current contact, may be ongiong, but not real easy to prove. She claims there is none, qnd i could talk to her one employee, who knows of the situation to confirm. If I try for exposure, I will push her away. Especially, if there has not been a physical affair, or recent contact and the OM becomes aware as a result of my exposure. If not? Sorry, in the end, to me it doesn't matter, how far she has gone. What matters is winning her back.
Thank you
This was typed on a tablet, so my apologies for errors.

If you cannot get spyware onto her phone, slip a VAR under the passenger seat of the car (using velcro) or anywhere that you are likely to pick up a cellphone conversation.

Don't go for exposure yet, you do not have the information you need.

living_well,

Trust me when I say if it becomes necessary, I can dig up anything I want. Just as context since I know you know what a crack-berry is, her ultimate (and mine) employer is the largest employer in Canada - which for the most part until recently only used BB's. She knows me as an IT guru, I spend my days finding out what other people don't want known - and get paid to do it. It is a pretty good gig. She truly is at heart an honest soul, and would not pursue a physical relationship while we were still together. She has also told me clearly that she wants to tell the OM how she feels and if he feels the same way wait for him (if his is willing) to end his marriage so they can be together.

My goal is to not let this happen, and to head this off. So I don't wish to focus on collecting evidence at this time. This to me would be counter to my goal of repairing the damage already done, focusing on my part. I am asking for help in this regard. If it comes down to it, then I will start collecting, but at that time, we will be living separately, and then there will be no point. She will be free to do as she wishes. Then I am looking at a plan A and B situation.

In short - collecting evidence - if it exists - is counter to the goal. She want to move out, she has not denied how she feels, and collecting, will just motivate her to leave. Instead, I want to convince her to give us a chance.
Thank you.

Hi Allan, welcome to Marriage Builders. It is obvious she is having an affair with this married man, probably physical. She has told you outright that she wants to pursue a relationship with him. She has many opportunities to carry on an affair in the workplace. He can come there if you live in a community that has cars, boats and planes.

YEs, exposure does temporarily push a wayward spouse away, but an affair pushes them away forever. It is irrational to say you are concerned about "pushing her away" when she is already pushed so much away [by her affair] that she wants to leave you.

You won't "win her back" as long as she is having an affair because her lovebank is closed to you. And you will never "win her back" trying to meet the NON intimate emotional needs of DS and FC. Those needs do not make enough lovebank deposits to create romantic love. Exposure is what wrecks affairs so if you want to save this, you need a) get the facts and b) expose the affair.


I don't believe this story. Women don't leave their husbands and children for infatuations. I think there is more to the story.

Then you need to investigate and expose if you find hard evidence. The most effective actions of investigation and exposure are not the most intuitive ones.

When should an affair be exposed?

Statements from that article:

WE are not going to help you with a bad plan. I would point out that you have no experience at this and are the least objective person on this thread. We can't help if you won't listen.

This is a very interesting philosophy of marriage. Does your wife feel that if she develops "feelings," that she is entitled to pursue them even though she is married? She doesn't seem to understand or accept that marriage is an exclusive relationship. She wants to wreck 2 families in pursuit of her feelings and is quite open about that.

Has she had affairs before?

As a person of a similar skillset, I encourage you to not get too cocky. In your investigating, the very skillset that puts you ahead of the game in one sense can blind you in another.

While covering the technical bases of communication that you are good at, don't forget about old school. A prepaid phone can be hard to detect if it's kept off and only used in places where a VAR is not likely. I wouldn't be so quick to rule out personal contact either, which a PI would be useful for.

What prompted my comment?

I'm not sure if you meant that she thinks your just IT when you are something more, or whether she is fully aware of your extra-IT work. Either way, she knows full well that you are into tech and I'll bet she is more careful than the average spouse.

There appears to be a contrast effect going on here, which as others have said, indicates an active affair.

Contrast effect

Forgot to ask: exactly how do you know that?

The point in all of this is not to villainize your wife. The point is to find out exactly what you are dealing with so you can make an effective plan for recovery. In the state that your wife is openly admitting to be in, she is not in a place of trustworthiness. The emotional fog she is experiencing is a very powerful influence.

If you are afraid of losing her over exposure, you should be afraid of losing her over the affair instead. You sure don't want to HELP her walk away, do you?

Yeah. And I and many other wives of similar "gurus" still managed to hide things from them. Knowing you are a "guru" will just make her more careful.


Honest souls become liars when they take heroin. Affairs are like heroin. She is not the woman you know -- she is a drugged out addict. And she will lie.

Sorry to tell you but you need to pull your head out of the sand and wake up here.

She is currently in a physical affair with this OM. Yes, it is physical and yes it is active.

When a WS wants to move out, that is code for "I need space and privacy to conduct my physical affair."

I've never not seen that be the case all the years on this forum. However almost EVERY betrayed spouse is in denial that the affair is physical.

I'm a software engineer and my XH carried on affairs with many women over an 18 year period right under my nose. I did not have a clue. Contact was only via the office phone or face to face. No electronic record anywhere. He finally slipped up on an overseas trip when he used a VoIP phone thinking it was a landline. I had real time access to the phone logs. One single call after 18 years. . .

Each time he got away with it, he got a little better at it.

Wow,
I have to say this is depressing, I will give this some thought tonight. I can talk to members of her team - as mentioned there is one, who is apparently the one who first noticed the attraction - he is a photographer, and he saw it before my wife recognized it (or so she claims). I can also talk to the person who she rides to work with - and see what I find.
If you are right - and your experience indicates this, this sucks.
Thank you.

Allen,

DON'T run off and talk to a bunch of people. You might get their opinions but you will not get the FACTS.

What you want here is the FACTS.

As everyone has said, women don't leave their husband for an infatuation. They leave for an AFFAIR. I am sorry to say that your wife is having an affair.

It doesn't sound like we need to give you tips on how to get the evidence, since you do it for a job. Generally we suggest people put spyware on devices, or a VAR in the WS's car to capture conversations with the AP. You can use whatever method you want to get the facts about the nature of her relationship with this OM.

If you start talking to random people, it will surely get back to her and TIP HER OFF and this is not what you want to do. Get the evidence, and come back here for next steps.

In short, you are WRONG. Collecting evidence is NOT counter to the goal. Unless your 'goal' is to let your wife gaslight you as she walks out the door into another man's arms.

The very first step in saving a marriage in trouble is to 1) find out what the problem is. You actually already know what the problem is, she has another point of comparison. She has an OM. Where you are being gaslit already is the extent of their relationship. If your wife is having an affair, she is not going to tell you the truth about that. So this is something you need to find out for yourself.

For the record, if she is not having an affair (she is), there is only one way to rule that out, and that is to snoop and find out.

So you can see that this is STEP ONE.

Bad idea!! Don't talk to anyone other than a PI. Don't say anything to anybody. Just quietly start snooping and come back here with the goods.

Ok, message recieved, 5x5.
Thank you.

So what is your plan? Are you going to hire a PI?

Presently she is at home (leave from work), unless going to or from counseling. I will start with checking the GPS logs on the vehicles, to see if she is making any stops anywhere else. I know that she could simply turn the GPS unit off, but that would then tell me she is going somewhere and hiding it from me.

Frankly this will then give me enough to look deeper. I know that others here have said not to under estimate her ability to deceive, but unless I tip my hand that I am checking the logs (i.e. I will only check them when I am at work) I don't think she will realize it.

We live in an area that has limited public transportation (i.e. no buses outside of rush hour service). And I will set up a trail cam to check if there is anyone coming or going that shouldn't be from the house. Hiring a PI at this time, to watch her sit at home - would be a pretty big expense - considering she is the larger breadwinner, and has a good handle on the finances I am not sure I could swing the $$ without questions. Also a consideration is in our province (yes Canada) it is a 50/50 split of assets no matter what. If the trail cam shows someone coming to the house, then I can look at hiring a PI, or frankly look at setting up a camera to notify me of arrivals by email.

Last question I had, we have computers in several rooms of the house, these seem to me to be perfect VARs. Does anyone know of any software that would run in the background and record voices? Note, that I run both Windows and Linux based OS's at home. I am thinking something like snooper might work - I can test it to be sure: http://www.snooper.se/index.htm

Of course if she is communicating with him on her work BB by text, I am still not going to be able to find it, but this is a start.
Thank you.

Reminds me of a funny story. My XH had a crackberry supplied by his office so no chance for me to put anything onto it. However, by chance one day we bumped into one another at the bank. I pretended that I knew he would be there. From that day onwards he would leave his crackberry at the office whenever he wanted to conceal his movements. Made life so simple for me; I just knew that whenever his phone went unanswered . . . .


Internal ones are cheaper than external ones and far simpler to configure because you can do it wirelessly. I have a little Panasonic inside pointing at the door. Triggers an email, takes a photo and records the voices. But it is important that she not discover whatever you use.


I've never used that but I know that iPhones have a great var app.



Cheaters do love text messaging, seems to be universal. Texts are the invention of the devil.

This also I think answers one of Erastis's questions.


Sorry, I think I should take the time, and try and answer the questions that you all asked.
MelodyLane - in November we (her, and I) went on a week-end trip to a nearby city. Spent our time in a hotel, I was at a conference during the day, she was free to explore the city, and we spent the evenings, and nights together. This is when she initially told me of the OM. She asked me to keep her close etc. I felt we were doing ok, and that I had started to work on (without knowing what they were) LoveBusters, and making deposits. Our conversation the last couple of weeks revealed that it wasn't enough. Apparently I had let her slip past "he point of no return" and any deposits I made were probably not being credited. I hope that analogy makes sense. I wonder if she had stayed home that week-end, would she have been with him? Which seems like it would have been a perfect time for them to have time alone. But she passed the chance. During our recent conversations, and again yesterday, I asked if she has had any contact, she said no, he wrote to her once, and she told him she was off work and going through a rough patch. So far just her word.

Erastis,
Cockiness warning taken - just as an idea I don't work for CSIS or CSEC (our version of the CIA and NSA) but some of their employees trained me. I am pretty much a desk jockey, but don't mind digging, and enjoy finding the online info.

I hadn't even looked at the cameras yet,
Inside or out, the concealing part might be tricky, but I have an idea of where, upside the location is near one of our routers.
As for not answering her phone - as she is a manager she doesn't answer her crack-berry when in a meeting - which when working is a big chunk of her day. This is actually a rule that I have always supported, nothing bugs me more than being in a meeting and having the managers glued to the dame things.

As mentioned she has a BB for work, our oldest has an iphone, I have always resisted getting a mobile. I never really saw the need. I am at work - meaning at my desk, or in a meeting, or traveling to or from work, or picking up our son. My life has always been predictable and open. Never needed the electronic leash. I think our son has her BB password, but getting it without arousing suspicion could be tricky.

Thank you

Allan,

You can buy a few VAR's and place them in different places: Under the bead, under that car seat of her car.

I placed on under our bed, and I used velcro to attach it to the bed frame. I got the info I needed.

There are plenty of cameras that are small and easy to conceal if you want to go that route.

Just keep snooping. Make this your full time mission until you get the info you need. I have very little doubt you will uncover something soon if you put your focus on this task.

Thanks, does it make sense to hope you are wrong?
At the same time, I know I need to make an honest effort.
Presently reviewing GPS data starting in the middle of last November. If she went anywhere that is suspicious with vehicle 1, I will see it. Might take a few days, but this will be the tip.

Tomorrow, I will drive the car to work, and I can do the same, not sure the data will be from the same period, but this will at least show me if she has driven anywhere to meet. I am pretty sure that he hasn't been to the house - as mentioned outside of public transit, and we live quite a ways out. I also tend to notice any tire tracks in the snow.

Alan,
Can you put spyware on her phone? That would be your best intel.

Regarding the OM coming to your home, the VAR will still record her in phone conversations or video chats on programs like SKYPE. I'd recommend putting it in a place where she would be most likely have those conversations in addition to the bedroom and under her driver's seat.

No chance of this, the phone is a work issue BB, it is locked down from installing anything that would seem suspicious. Above, I asked about VAR software, as we have computers in several rooms in the house, and for those rooms where there isn't one, and a conversation might happen, I may just leave my tablet plugged in "charging". Video chats would be unlikely - unless she was using her BB, again, it is a work one, so she probably wouldn't run the risk, she knows that the IT group at work can review any transmissions.

That is normal. Even if you discover rock solid evidence, you will still hope there is an innocent explanation. That's why gaslighting is so effective: you want to be wrong, even if you can see crystal clear what is going on.

I have completed the review of the GPS logs for both vehicles. I know it isn't conclusive, after all, she was car-polling to work for a while before the holidays, and if something happened during the day, it wouldn't show up.
I have on block of 2 hours on a Saturday that I can't account for. I know she had a wake she went to later that day - and that time, and location is accounted for. However, for 2 hours before the wake she went to her office. I can't push her, without raising suspicions. Any ideas on how to confirm?
The office and the wake were a few blocks apart, she did move the vehicle between the two, otherwise, it might have appeared that she was parking there to save money.
Other than that, nothing that seems suspicious.
Thanks.

Is this since October?

For car#1 I have data from November 15th until now.
For car#2 I have data going back to last spring.

I know that you all firmly have told me that there is a PA going on. With the work she does, and the other person does - both office work - she manages a team of 12, he is not a manager, but works in communications in another organization.
Without accessing calendars, and putting a gps tracer on her person, I am not sure of confirming physical contact, I will see if I can use the VAR software this week-end. Also, going to stop in at the phone/cable provider see if I can get online access to incoming/outgoing calls from the house.
Thank you

Just did a bit of digging, using a photo on his FB profile, I confirmed his address (matched one of the people with the same name in the phone directory to a photo of his son in front of the house across the street).
His home is up for sale. Based on the exterior photo - snow and decorations, looks like the listing was done after Christmas of this year. House also looks like it was either staged, or someone has already moved out - nothing on the counters in the kitchen, four bedroom house - all the beds look like they might be slept in - so if no one has moved out, could be sleeping in separate rooms.

Compared the Address, to all the GPS tracks I have - neither of the vehicles ever went near this place.

Edit - also got car, make, model, color and plate from the exterior shot.

As he is a married man with two children, that is hardly surprising.

Question - for Melody.
I am reading an older thread (LostonLeft coast - Emotional Affair) and I notice again the stressing of the UA time. I understand it, I agree with it, and I have read the rational on timing - 168 hours -50 for work, -56 (actually with my wife, it is probably closer to 65)...We have together from about 5 each night, until 9.
Our boys go to bed at the same time as we do, and my wife is unable to stay up any later.
I would like to work in 1.5 to 2 hour blocks each night - I am calling those connection times - time to fill 3 of the 4 needs - those on her side (the SF can wait on my side she can call the shots there).
As much as I can.

This still leave me with a deficit of about 8 hours or more each week. A couple of 4 hour blocks each week-end day would be great, but we still have that limited time frame - I wake up around 5:30 to 6 am, she wakes up around 7 (if she can sleep in) and the youngest has probably beat her up. Again off to bed around 9. I want to carve out this time, any suggestions?
The boys are noticing that I am monopolizing "moms" time, as we spend time together talking while at home.

Thank you

Melody is going to tell you that you need 4 - 4 hour dates per week. UA time cannot be filled at home, especially with kids there. There is no such thing as 'undivided attention' time when kids are around, even sleeping.

First, you need to prioritize your UA time above everything else, and not the other way around.

Second, you need to spend that time out of the house.

Do you have family or friends that can help with childcare? Can you hire a babysitter?

They can surely be left alone while you have proper dates. You don't even need a babysitter.

Sugarcane,
You are correct, the oldest can and does look after his brother.
My challenge is getting her out of the house on week nights.
Youngest has sports 2 nights a week, the oldest trains 5 afternoons a week, come spring he will probably have games 3 or more times each week. She won't accept taking this away from them.
Remember I am in a semi plan A while I collect evidence.
To get four 4 hour dates, would be Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday.
I honestly don't know how I can sell that.

That is where you need to start. I would sell her on the idea of creating a passionate marriage and the idea of going out on dates. It is in your children's best interest for their parents to have a happy passionate marriage.

Here
The Critical Importance of Undivided Attention

MeldodyLane,
Thank you.
I think I screwed up.
She admitted tonight that she is just here going through the motions and doesn't beleive there is anything I can do to make this work. She told me that she is leaving no matter what.
I think I tipped my hand, and asked her if she would still leave if he didn't exist. I wanted her to imagine if I could make any positive contributions if he wasn't in the picture. She doubted it.
I asked her what would happen if his family knew. She told me she would leave right away, and I would loose a friend (her). I asked "since you are leaving anyway, what am I loosing?" She didn't take well to the analogy of the drug addict and the crack pipe - I guess the fog is there. So the boys and I are watching Dr. Who, and she is off clearing her head. I will check the GPS logs when she returns.
I imagine I am going to get a few comments to the effect that I might have shot myself in the crank - I fully expect them.
Thank you.

I will read this, I am thinking your intention is for me to get her to read this as well?

Allan,

As you can see from her response to you, she is in the full throes of an affair. So you must keep collecting intel and find proof. Can you hire a PI can keep track of her when you are working?

At this point your objective is to get the evidence, and then expose the affair following the Exposure 101 link posted with ML's signature.

If you don't expose the affair, it will continue to evolve further damaging your chances to recover the marriage.

Why are you posting in MB101? Why haven't you asked for this to be moved to the SAA (Surviving an Affair) forum?

I would not share anything from this site with your WW right now.

Thank you, I get that, just not sure how I can.
A PI can't help if they are communicating by BB. I have no way to get any info from her BB as hacking it would be a federal offense (government property). And she won't give me access - technically cannot even if she was willing.

As for following her - at this time, I don't know when he would need to follow her - I can't pay someone to follow her 40 hours per week. I have accounted for all her time that I can (so outside of when she was actually at work). And have found possibly two hours that is not clear.

Not sure of the protocol's if that is the proper place for this, then yes, it makes sense to move the thread. This thread started as a question to fix what I see as my screw up - not manning up sooner, not being aware, and not meeting her ENs, and devolved into whatever I have now.

She just returned, I will see if she will talk.
Thank you.

Quick update,
She will stay so I don't ruin his family by exposing. I am pretty sure the exposure is still needed, But until I have proof to share, I hope to keep being loving, and provide a safe, warm inviting place. I know it will be tough as her responses tonight have amounted to "as you wish". She did agree to talk to someone from the MB side. But if I understand that isnt recommended.
Suggestions are welcome. Right now I am following what you write here, and looking to oĺder threads for ideas (LostWestCoast Emotional affair really speaks to me).
Thank you.

Allan, first off, you should not be threatening or talking about the affair, you should be getting EVIDENCE. The plan has not changed. Did you threaten to expose the affair?

Why would she say she "will stay so I don't ruin his family by exposing?"


That isn't recommended. What is recommended is that you QUIETLY get the evidence, and without warning, expose the affair.

I think its good that you read older threads, but we will give you the correct advice here. The advice is the same no matter where you read. [other than older threads before 2008-2010 where no one knew about Marriage Builders]

MelodyLane, I mentioned, here that I might have gottn her thinking. She is generally soft but very protective of her friends.
I also expect you to tell me stepped in it.

I think i understand. You asked how his family would feel if they knew and she threatened to leave if you told them? [which she was already going to do anyway] So does she believe you will be quiet now if she stays?

Did she admit she is having an affair?

She will admit she thinks she loves him, and that there is an emotional connection. She claims she does not know if he loves her, but that one of her employees told her he sees it. She denies anything physical, and the therapist(I saw her today my wife saw her yesterday)told me that my WW claims nothing physical has happened. I am in the challenge of you can't prove a negative. I have accounted for almost all of her non-work time since mid-november. But understand I can't account for her time while she worked 3 days a week in December, and full time for 2 weeks in January.

She is here to protect him, I told her I didn't say I would expose I just wanted her to imagine if it is worth it.
I won't lie to her, but her staying like this probably won't work. She is Here in body not in spirit.

But you haven't accounted for her worktime and that is probably when she conducts her affair.

But you do plan to expose the affair, right? That should be done once you have evidence, without forewarning her. If you keep snooping you will eventually get the goods. She can't hide it forever.

If I get proof I will expose it. I know I claimed to be good at digging and I think I am. Just not sure how to find proof. She works in a government office. He works in another building 20 minutes away. Short of getting their calendars which I don't think she will volunteer. I know she was rarely out of the office when she was at work as she was busy catching up on missed work from when she was off. That and her 12 staff coming to her door... her boss.. and her two co-workers and their teams. She gets 30 minutes for lunch, which she normally takes at her desk.

Some ways she could carry on her affair at work would be a) over the phone, b) work skype, c) he could come to her building and they could meet in the parking garage or any other place in the building, d) he could pick her up at the front door, e) she could take an afternoon off and meet him some place. There are a million ways.

You cannot talk her out of it with logic.
Your only chance is plan A, while quietly collecting evidence.

DO NOT talk to her about exposing in any way shape or form and do not let on that you even think he plays a role anymore.
Try to get her to laugh as you did before you got her to date you. You are in a very serious competition here with someone who does not have to share bills and household worries with her. You are the father of her children, which is a huge advantage on your part. But stop having unpleasant interactions with her and talk about problems.

Get evidence as much as you can and if she doesn't want to date you, you may be able ton sneak fun time by taking the whole family to outings she would find enjoyable. If the boys are having a sports game yoi can watch it with her and buy her an ice cream. You know her best so be creative and snoop like crazy at the same time.

Do not get discouraged if she does not respond rightaway. Most women can only be in love with one person at once. Untill you gather more points than the affair fantasy, or (which is much more realistic) you break up the fantasy by exposure with facts, she will not let on that she appreciates your efforts.

MelodyLane, I don't deny there are ways. The PA part, is the part I find challenging. I don't beleive he drives to work, as I think he has one car and he lives right next to transit that would be perfect. But as a means of meeting....
I know work skype is out nobody has video chat on thier computers. The phone is the most probable method of communicating.

HappyHeart,
Thank you, this is my plan, I goofed last night, but think I covered it. I am doing nothing but working for laughs and time now.
We just got back from grocery shopping, just her and I the first time probably since the boys were born that we did that together.
Not exactly ua time, but the closest I have had in a few weeks.
She did suggest a nice dinner for Tuesday night, which was a surprise, the boys will be with us but at least I can cook, and spoil them a bit.
Did get a couple of chuckles, while shopping. She is sleeping now. (Depression)
Thank

So why could they not meet? I am confused. If he owns a car and lives right next to a transit, wouldn't that get him there?



We have skype chat on our computers and it is not video chat. Even so, they do have phones. '

I am confused why you would think this is challenging?

Sorry, I was refering to public transit -the bus route is near his home. And faster and cheaper than it would be for him to drive. It is the getting proof part. I don't have the $$ to have a PI sit outside our home all day for weeks. Also the few neighbours arond would get suspicous. I can't hack her BB, as it is locked down by her work, nor when she goes back to work, can I have a PI follow her all day there.
All I have is what ahe told me, and I worry, that is all I will get.
Without, more I can't expose, and thus might not br able to break the spell, and scare him away.
I know it is wrong, and can already here you saying no - is I want to try and scare him away.
I won't.

We don't suggest you expose without evidence.

I know especially, in this xase, if ww is telling the truth, he may know nothing.
My exposure then could just be telling him of an opportunity.
I know small chance of that.
Well, just finished watching The Jungle Book as a family.
Ww is back in our bed she slept in the spare room last night.

Nothing to update. WW is talking about returning to work early - she was set to be off until the end of this month. Not sure of the implications.

Still planning on cooking a family dinner tonight, she seems chilly, but trying to create a balance between space, and availability - on my part. We watched TV together last night while supper ccoked, then I took our youngest to Archery, and she went to her "bruler-kilo" (sorry - French is her first language and we live in the one place that French is the first langauge in Canada - Her excersice class.

I have a question un-related to my situation - I wanted to ask one of you here before I posted a suggestion on another thread - I tried to send a PM to ML - who is working with another BH and I am not able to send a PM. Is there any way I can ask without posting the information in case it is off base? Thank you.

PMs are not allowed on the MB site.

I strongly urge the use of good old fashioned stand alone digital VAR units. These will catch voice to text, calls, discussions with vehicle passengers, and will also log recording times. That will help if GPS is turned off, by checking duration of travel. Get a couple, less than $30 each. Set the menu to no beep, no led, sensitive mic, and let them run. Get one for the vehicle, one for bedroom, and move one around from place to place.

BrianHurts, Understood,
I will post my question here - it is related to another thread I am reading - involving abrrba, and his efforts to get his ww to quite her job. I have not finished yet, but it seems like this is still ongoing. It occurred to me that security clearances are an issue in her workplace - I think there was mention of Secret clearance required. I don't know about the US rules as much, but an affair can have a huge impact on clearances - the whole idea of reliability comes into question. In this case there might be (speculating) a clause in the contract that the company his wife has with the government requiring the company to inform the contract holder if there are any changes in a persons life that may impact their ability to hold a security clearance. As it is described in the thread, the company is aware that two of its employees are having a physical affair at the sight of employment, and they (the company) has done nothing. I could see this causing the company huge issues, and they may be persuaded to release one, or both of the offenders, rather than loose the contract. I understand that this may seem drastic - and as I am very new to these boards, I wouldn't want to post that as a suggestion on his thread without input from everyone here who has been there, and has their heads on straight. Which I acknowledge mine isn't.
Thank you.

Thank you - so about 50 or so Canadian,
May I ask do you have links to suggested ones?
Thank you.

Oh, and as a little humour - on Sunday, I was up on the roof shoveling snow off. Our youngest was up there with me (no safety concerns if he fell off, it would have been a few feet to soft fluffy snow - and WW had approved the adventure. Anyway after I worked for a bit, I asked him to go back inside so I wouldn't hit him with snow or ice (breaking it off from an overhang). Apparently while inside he looked at WW and asked her if OM could do that (shovel the snow off the roof).

Kid gets an extra hug for that.

I've had good luck with the low end Olympus voice recorder units, but playback can be tedious, even at 2x. The higher end ones allow download so you can review with an app that would allow you to visually scan recording levels.

I'm not sure about product link protocol, so I will trust your search abilities

Thanks,
I found the 4GB (WS852 and the 8GB (WS853) they are 69.99 and 99.99 (Canadian) respectively.
I will stop in at the store, and see if they have any in stock.

I paid about $40 for mine. It's a Sony T-mark, and it worked well. The key is just hiding it well. I velcroed mine to the frame of our bed where my wife would Skype and go into chat rooms. I got the intel I needed. Hide them wherever she takes her private moments. Good luck.

Sorry, I just saw a comment on another thread that applies to me, I wonder to what extent. living_well advised another BM to let Joyce know that his WW makes more than he does.
I understand that traditionally men have made more then women, but in some cases (mine for example) the women makes more. I make more than minimum wage, and would be considered as more than the median income for a single parent family in my province. My wife is a talented person with a specific skill set who presently makes about twice my salary. How damaging could this be? Short of getting a second job, which would cut into any chance of UA, suggestions? I can see the possibility of increasing my salary - but very unlikely that I could double it and become at least equal to her.
Thank you

Did you get a chance to read Dr Harley on the need for financial support ? It is not just the issue of who makes the most money. In the thread you are referring to, the family's debts had mounted up to such an extent that the poster was worried about losing his council house. To be the most attractive option in plan A, he had to turn that around. I believe that he did so.

Correct, I don't think we have any issue for stability together, I must have taken you comment out of context and it set me to thinking.

Hi Allan! I think those are some great points about the security clearance and I hope you will mention that to abrra.

ML,
Thank you, done.

Also, is this a glimmer of light?
I made a dinner last night, it was "semi-romanitc" I know I make up terms, WW, our YS (Younger Son) and I. I set out candles, with no backlash, when I returned from clearing the table, WW had set a valentine gift (heart shaped Resses Cup pack) at my place, she told me not to read into it. But I can't help it.
I did pick her up something - a box set of one of her favorite series - not recalling that we already have one - I suggested we give this one to her mother, so is this a step forward - or a step back - picking up something that we already has shows I am not paying attention.
Thank you.

Erastis, Sorry this is a few days late, I just re-read the contrast effect thread, and I am wondering, is this a worry from my perspective - should I be on the look out for temptations? Or is it my WW that may be suffering from this? I totally see that happening - her LB for the OM is full - no negative withdrawals, and really no interactions that would result in any. While mine is virtually empty. I am making an analogy that currently we may be operating on an exchange rate - if he is making deposits - and he may not need to do anything to make them - just be on her mind - he is making them at a positive rate of return - so like the Canada/US rate he gets 1.30 for every buck of deposit. I on the other hand am trying to deposit (in her eyes) Indian Rupee where the rate is .019 dollar (Canada) to every Rupee. Does this make sense?
Thank you.

So that means you need to kill the affair so that he isn't able to make ANY deposits. If she wants to stay married, she will have to end contact for life. Once that happens you won't have to worry about exchange rates. You just have to "invest" fully in the MB program with your wife and build a wonderful, ecstatic marriage. The tools are there for you if you're both willing to use them.

But first things first. Kill dead the affair.

Understood, agreed, trying to get evidence. As mentioned before, she is at home (not working) and if communicating only doing so via text, which I have no way of intercepting.
Thanks.

Just an update - as I am still here, but not posting on any progress.

I still have no proof. My wife has, and is still off work, so has been home. Last week was March break and we spent the first three days as a family together. I worked the last part of the week, but our boys and WW were home.

It was a good time, and I feel we have some good interactions. She admitted that she feels that balance growing - we had used this term before I discovered MB.

But she doesn't see it getting to were it was (rationalization).

She also admitted that she would like to have to work, to have to chase, she doesn't feel she needs to do that with me. I hope that makes sense. I think she is looking for excitement - like when a couple first meet.

So I can improve myself, and am working on it - PIES (not eating them I promise) but is there a way I could give her that sense of the chase? Without making withdrawals? I don't want to play on jealousy, I see that as a dangerous slope.

This week-end is going to be busy. Our oldest leaves early Saturday AM for 11 days, our youngest has a tournament during the day on Saturday, and we have a date that evening. Sunday will be chores, shopping - we have started doing the shopping together which has given us some alone time outside of the house.

I know if I can't expose - which I can't without proof, and I am not sure I can get any that this is going to be a challenge, but ideas?

Plan A without exposure, is it possible?

I have VAR set up on the computer - right next to the landline phone, and as mentioned, I can't put anything on her work phone - although I did trick her into giving me the password last week-end. I checked, no text to OM - she rarely uses texts, and had a few dating back to last year - between her, our son, and a few between her one female friend that texts.
I don't expect to have much to post, but I will as I have information to post, or questions to ask. I appreciate all I see here, I am reading other posts, and gleaning ideas, and hope from them. You are all amazing, and I thank you not just for the support for myself, but for all of us who are facing the darkness with no, or little light to guide us.

Thank you.

We all want the chase, but we give it up for something for deeper and more meaningful. Some people live for the superficial thrills that come with new relationships. When the trill dies, they move on. They are called renters in Dr. Harley's parlance. His book Buyers, Renders, and Freeloaders by Dr. Harley might be a good read for both of you.

On the other hand, if you both are willing to put in the UA time and identify and meet each others emotional needs and remove love busters, you will be able to achieve a passionate relationship.

Thank you, I saw the phrase of the Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders before. I want and believed we were Buyers, but it seems she has a bit of a desire to feel like a renter. I will take a look at the book. I am willing to put in the time on the UA part - it is a pleasure. I get the feeling that my exchange rate is getting better than the rupee I might be up to a peso now.

Here until you get the book. Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders

BrainHurts,
Thanks, for the link, quick question. With a probable long answer.
How do I keep my Taker at bay while doing Plan A?
I see that as a possible challenge.
Especially since WW cconfirmed tonight that we are in limbo until she overcomes the depression, and figures out what she wants.
Limbo -living together, sharing a bed, but no physical contact.
I know that the figure out what she wants is fog babble and could be her way of stalling for time.

Thank you.

Will she go out on dates with you? If so, what are you doing on the dates? Has your W seen her doctor about ADs?