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I have been reading this site like crazy for weeks now, after having a series of D-days in 2016 which WH somehow explained his way out of, culminating in a final one at the end of our family holiday in January. It was then that I shook myself out of denial and started thinking properly. I collected evidence (including pics of genitals he sent - nice) and went all out on exposure this evening. But he is now so mad I am scared - and I don't know where to go from here. He has taken my phone, he comandeered my computer, changed all my email passwords, and spent literally hours locked in my study trying to delete the evidence I had found. He says he can't stand to see my face. We live in a foreign country so I am totally alone here, thousands of miles from any support from family or friends, and I don't know how to proceed with Plan A from here. How long can exposure anger last? How do you transition to trying to be a great partner from this? I would appreciate any advice anyone can give. The posts on this forum are such an amazing support and source of advice.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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We have been together for 10 years, married for 8. Four children (three boys 7, 6 and 5, one of whom is from a previous affair, and a baby girl of 8 months). I actually think he has never been faithful for any period during our entire relationship. So not sure whether there is anything to salvage in our marriage. But he is an amazing father and I hate the idea that our kids would grow up not living with the father they love so much.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Hello C/C, welcome to Marriage Builders. If you are scared, you should leave and go to a safe place with your children. I would also make plans to get back to your home country with your family.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Thank you for the quick response Melody Lane. We are in a country where I need my husband's permission to take the children across the border, which makes the situation difficult. I think i will be able to organise to move with them by June, but I am not sure what to do right now. Is there any experience on this forum of how long exposure anger lasts?


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Thank you for the quick response Melody Lane. We are in a country where I need my husband's permission to take the children across the border, which makes the situation difficult. I think i will be able to organise to move with them by June, but I am not sure what to do right now. Is there any experience on this forum of how long exposure anger lasts?

It can last for 1 hour to 2 weeks. You need to get away from him.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Should i be trying to be calm and loving during this time? He is being extremely nasty and cruel and it is very hard to experience that.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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I took the decision to not expose him at work, even though the affair is at work with a subordinate of his. He is the boss of a country office so there is no one above him in the country that I could alert. Is that a mistake? I am worried that because most of the people I have exposed to are not in the same country with us that there will not be sufficient pressure on him to end the affair. However, he has already signed a contract for a new job in a different country that starts at the beginning of May, so we are supposed to be leaving anyway. In the new country, he will definitely not be able to see the OW anymore. And since the new job is with the same company, I was worried that exposure might actually jeopardise this new job, which would be shooting myself in the foot somewhat. Did I make the right decision?


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Is the OW married? Who on the OW's side have you exposed to? Doesn't your WH have an HR department or a boss?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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You may have to lay low and convince him, that you will be staying in your own country for some time with the children untill he is settled in his new job.

If you were to take your children back to your home country now (even if he would let you) and not bring them back to their father, it might well be considered international child abduction ans you would stand the chance of losing them.

You must get legal help, for example via your parents who could consult a lawyer, specializing in international family law. To find out what your rights and possibilities are. And you must never again put yourself and the children in a position where you illoyal husband has all the power. He is a serial cheater from what you tell us and recovery will be very difficult even in a "normal" situation.


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Hi BrainHurts,

No, she is not married. She is a single mother. I have exposed to her facebook friends list through private message and I am just going through the process of receiving a fair few abusive comments back. I guess it is to be expected. A couple of the people on there work with them both. There is a local HR department for his office, but they report to him. So I would be exposing him to his subordinates and I am not sure if that would be effective in achieving the outcome of stopping the affair, especially since he has already told his whole staff that he is moving countries.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Thank you Happy Heart. Yes, the border crossing rule is specifically to prevent child abduction....which I guess is a good thing. I think, rationally, I will not be able to make a move until he leaves the country. So that will be the start of Plan B. It means a two-month long Plan A, which is going to be hard but I will try to be strong. The only other option is to try to throw him out before that, but I think that might be counter productive if the affair is not finished. I would just be giving him space to have fun.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Don't report him locally, report him at the corporate love. From what you've described about him being company head in-country, I can tell he works for a large corporation who will likely have an Ethics & Compliance Helpline. You can go to the company's website on the internet and look for it. Call the number and tell them he is having an affair with a subordinate. Many companies will look the other way at affairs but they will not look the other way if it is a supervisor-subordinate relationship because that creates all kinds of issues for them.

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Can you post the abusive comments you got back? People may also help with how to respond. My understanding is that it should be exposed at work no matter what. I would expose to his bosses in the headquarters, people who gave him the new job, people in the workplace in the country where the new job is. This will have the best effect. Do not avoid doing it because of your fear. Shine the light on him.

Do not worry him losing a job. Worry about losing you marriage. Jobs will come and they are plenty. Your marriage is only one and it will not come back.

Even if he moves to another country he still can see OW - plenty of opportunities. The world has become small. He can even visit her under the shadow of business trips. Too easy to do. I am in the same situation - international affair from my WW. The affair is kept simmering. So, please destroy the affair with maximum power and no remorse.


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Report to all country managers and their super bosses all over the world also. Maximum effect.


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Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Can you post the abusive comments you got back? People may also help with how to respond.
You don't need to respond to abusive comments. We don't need to see them here. This could be very upsetting for people contemplating exposure.

Some people will support you, and some will support OW. That is to be expected. Ignore any comments that are abusive.


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Thank you SugarCane. Yes, I just decided not to respond. I would not gain anything apart from degrading myself by starting (or reacting) to fights with friends of the OW. Of course it is reasonable and predictable that her friends would support her, at least in front of me. The purpose of exposure was not to get people to take my side but just to bring the whole thing out in the open so that they cannot hide anymore.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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It seems like the facebook exposure actually got all around their office anyway. So I think the objective was achieved. Exposure is not for the feint hearted - a very scary process - but I can see that it was essential if there is to be any future at all.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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WH has been sending me extremely angry and abusive messages all day - he is at work now - and I am scared of him when he is angry. Should I lock him out of the house? But what happens then? I guess I could tell him he can send an intermediary to pick up anything he needs. I do not want any violence in front of our children. Also, should I respond to his angry remarks in any way (calm, reasonable) or just not respond at all and wait for it to blow over?

It is really hurtful that he is being so nasty. He is telling me he regrets the day he met me, etc. All because people now know what he has been doing. I guess in the fog he can never understand that it is not me who created this situation, but him. Any advice appreciated.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
WH has been sending me extremely angry and abusive messages all day - he is at work now - and I am scared of him when he is angry. Should I lock him out of the house? But what happens then? I guess I could tell him he can send an intermediary to pick up anything he needs. I do not want any violence in front of our children. Also, should I respond to his angry remarks in any way (calm, reasonable) or just not respond at all and wait for it to blow over?
You should lock him out and send the message, as planned.

Respond to any violence, including shouting and cursing, by calling the police.

Make contact with your embassy or consulate, and get their help with the situation you are in. At least be clear about your rights to leave the country with your children. Find out whether you can go before a judge to make that happen. It might not be true that you simply need to put up with this situation for another two months.


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PS: how do you know that he won't agree to your leaving with the kids? Why would he try to keep you there?


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Thank you so much for continuing to respond.

He came back to the house but was surprisingly calm, so my fears about violence were unfounded. I cannot emphasise enough how impressed I am at the effect of exposure - and how it is so right to tell people not to be scared of the anger aftermath. The exposure to OW's facebook friends was the absolute best thing to do. I would never have had the courage to do that without MB.

I think he will agree for me to leave with the children if this mood continues. I am responding to all his anger and nastiness with kindness and calm. I realise it is very difficult for anyone to continue to boil with anger when the person in front of them is not fighting back.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by Brits_Brat
Don't report him locally, report him at the corporate love. From what you've described about him being company head in-country, I can tell he works for a large corporation who will likely have an Ethics & Compliance Helpline. You can go to the company's website on the internet and look for it. Call the number and tell them he is having an affair with a subordinate. Many companies will look the other way at affairs but they will not look the other way if it is a supervisor-subordinate relationship because that creates all kinds of issues for them.
Did you do this?

Are you leaving with your children?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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By virtue of my exposure to OW's facebook friends, a couple of whom were co-workers of WH and OW, the notification was forwarded round their entire company locally. WH called me screaming about receptionists and drivers all knowing everything and telling me it went viral (we live in a very small country, the capital city is like a village, everybody knows everybody), so the exposure objective was definitely achieved. I am very impressed with the power of exposure.

I am trying to sort out a rental house for the kids and I that we can move to ASAP. But realistically, I cannot take them to another country until the end of the school year on June 15 - but since my husband is due to move to another country on May 1, I think it might be the most sensible option for us to stay in our house and take his departure as the start of Plan B. Now that his initial anger at exposure seems to have subsided, the immediate worry of violence has dissipated.

I have a question about how to identify how destructive exposure has been to the affair, since it has an effect like throwing a whole deck of cards in the air. While before exposure, I had spy software on his phone, I was checking certain patterns of behaviour, I had access to all his social media accounts (previous FR) etc, and could see what was happening, but now he has removed the software, changed his passwords and has abandoned any attempt to pretend he is being honest with me. However, he is also hanging around the house like a bad smell, so I am wondering if that is either 1) a territorial thing now he is suddenly worried he might lose his family, 2) an aggressive thing to show me he is in charge or 3) a sign that he actually doesn't want to spend time with OW when it is not a secret pleasure anymore.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Dr. Harley recommends BW only to do Plan A for a maximum of 3 weeks. May-June is way too long. If he won't leave that job you need to prepare for Plan B. Will he leave that job now?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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I am not sure he can. He is the director of a country office. He has signed the contract for the new job and arranged the transition for end of April. He is travelling from next week until mid-March to three different places - which takes him away from OW but also provides the opportunity for hours of romantic skype chats, so not really a good thing. I think there is a possibility that I could ask him to take leave from mid-March onwards, and perhaps move earlier. But at the moment he is not even at the point of pretending to be remorseful or entertaining negotiation about the way forward. The last thing he wrote to me by text message last night is that we should consider ourselves separated because of what i did with exposure. The exposure anger and shock is very raw, especially the embarrassment of all his work colleagues knowing, along with all other people the company has links to in this country (as a result of facebook exposure to OW's friends). I don't think it will last more than a day or so more, but I can't yet predict when I will be in a position to make a request like that.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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A question: how do I stop enabling the affair if I don't currently have the power to negotiate to keep him in the house? Is there anything I can do? From what I can gather, the times they have been meeting up are either during the working day (8am to 6pm, although they don't physically work in the same office) or when he goes out to do a chore like picking up some bread from the store on a weekend. The rest of the time he was generally at home. He comes home every evening to eat dinner with the family and is just at home all weekend watching TV or doing stuff with the kids and I. Although I now understand affairees don't need loads of time together to establish and continue a relationship. I was giving myself a false sense of security in the past by thinking if my husband is at home every day from 6:30pm onwards, only going out on Friday nights with his guy friends, then he couldn't be doing anything. Now I know that with texts, flirting, and calls to establish an intimate connection, physical meetings don't have to be that frequent or long - and the rarer they are the more special I guess - and he can easily say he is going out with male friends but then leave them part way through the evening to meet her.

With this new perspective, I think the only way I could stop enabling the affair is to demand to know where he is 100% of the time and to actually be with him as much as possible. But how do I do that when I have a job, four kids, and he stomps around saying I am controlling him?!


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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It will take a big shift of his approach to life to accept that being married means accepting to do the things that currently feel to him like excessive control by his wife or limitations of his freedom. And I am not sure that will happen without a long, dark plan B - and even then I am not optimistic at this point.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Dr. Harley says to only take a husband back hat in hand. You will have to stay in plan A while respectfully asking him to end the affair. Be polite to him, but don't be complacent with the affair. And don't forget to expose to your children.


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Thank you happyheart. That is such good advice. My mistakes in the past are all related to allowing him back without REAL change. This time i am prepared to go forward alone. I want my marriage, but not if it is not a real marriage.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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You mentioned that you had a child from a previous affair. Was it your affair or his?

You also said he was a serial cheater. Can you give us a history of the infidelity in your marriage?

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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
But at the moment he is not even at the point of pretending to be remorseful or entertaining negotiation about the way forward. The last thing he wrote to me by text message last night is that we should consider ourselves separated because of what i did with exposure.
You should not be planning to stay in Plan A until April. Dr Harley does not recommend that women put up with affairs that do not end almost immediately. He points out that this has a deleterious effect on their physical and mental health. You are not required to find inner the resources to put up with this just because you live in a foreign country. You need to find a way out of this.

He wrote that you should consider yourselves separated. Can you take him at his word, and ask him to move out?

You did not address my point about asking your embassy or consulate for advice.


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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I think he will agree for me to leave with the children if this mood continues.
And you can do this, also. Ask him to give you legal permission to leave with the kids.

We should not be encouraging you to stay with a man who blatantly conducts an affair in front of your face. You are not a prisoner in the marriage, and you need to bring this situation to an end.


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Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I think he will agree for me to leave with the children if this mood continues.
And you can do this, also. Ask him to give you legal permission to leave with the kids.

We should not be encouraging you to stay with a man who blatantly conducts an affair in front of your face. You are not a prisoner in the marriage, and you need to bring this situation to an end.
I agree. As I said earlier Dr. Harley only recommends a maximum of 3 weeks of Plan A for BWs. You need to get him to let you take the kids and leave if he won't quit that job.


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2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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The child was from another previous affair of his. We brought him to live with us so that he could be raised with his two brothers (one older, one younger) when he was 3 years old.

He has basically been cheating on me the entire time we have been together. But he lies about everything so I only know the things I have found evidence for.

Initially, he used to say it was because he was struggling to come to terms with giving up his single life to become married; then when he got the other woman pregnant, it was because he was scared on embarking on a life with me since we are from different countries; then it was because I was angry and in pain and obviously not being fun around the house; then it was because we brought his other son to live with us and I was "too good" as a partner which made him feel bad about himself while I was also in pain and struggling with the emotions so still not fun to be around; then i had three miscarriages followed by a successful pregnancy so I was tired, gained weight, could not go out with him etc so he started socialising totally independently of me; these days the reasons seem to be a combination of 1) me being hurt and angry for all the pain he has caused me, which he says he can't stand to see in my face 2) me not respecting him as a "man" and 3) this idea of him being a "bad guy" and me being a "good guy" because the entire world can see that I am raising a child that looks nothing like me but exactly like my husband........


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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I will try to do that. I am worried already that the dramatic impact of exposure is dissipating so quickly and if i don't try to move things to resolution nothing will ever get resolved.

There is no embassy in the country. It is in the neighboring country. But i will contact them now and find out about my rights.

He has now totally calmed down from the exposure anger and says he loves me and just wants to move on (while also saying he is incredibly angry about what I have done in a cold anger way) - but he is saying that while not having done anything concrete AT ALL to make sure the affair is over. He says the exposure killed it and that the OW has told him to leave her alone so i don't need to worry. I keep on pushing saying "it is not over until the opportunity is removed. You are like an alcoholic working in a bar trusting yourself to not drink". But every time i ask him to do specific things like change his phone numbers, take leave or work from home, etc, he immediately comes up with some reason why that is impossible, which causes an argument even though I am really trying to avoid AOs, DJs and be a calm as possible.

His resistance to doing anything at all to fix this situation - even after exposure - shows me he doesn't have any remorse at all. It is making me feel so hopeless. He is also extremely resistant to revealing any information about the affair, demanding that i delete all evidence from my computer ("why do you want to keep those things so you can look at them every day and hurt yourself?) and saying he thinks allowing me to ask questions is not right because I will only get more hurt.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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He is doing the absolute bare minimum he thinks he can do to pacify me "so that we can just move on". So that leaves me feeling completely helpless. He is putting me in a situation where i have to constantly make demands, follow up, ask what progress has been made on xxx and yyy, and then he responds with hostility.

I think he is trying to manipulate me and the situation so that he avoids any sort of accountability. And I don't know how to respond to that in a way that changes our interactions with each other permanently. Thank you so much for all this really valuable advice. I am in a different time zone, so I know there is a delay, but I am finding such strength in reading others' experiences.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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He is totally focused on getting me to delete the pictures and videos I found on his phone. As if by deleting my them, the affair would cease to exist. Have you seen that kind of behaviour before? I feel that I need to keep evidence so that I have a reality check to guard against him persuading me that everything is fine. He is very charming and persuasive so I have to make a really conscious effort all the time to tell my self "it really is as bad as you think it is. Don't forget that!!"


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Save your evidence somewhere he can't get to it. Can you do that?

Did you ask him to leave?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Hi Brain Hurts,

I didn't ask him to leave after he calmed down from the hot anger. Instead, I organised a weekend away for us alone without the kids doing fun stuff we haven't done in years. We are supposed to leave in a few hours. I have arranged for the kids to stay with a friend of theirs until Sunday. Was that the right thing to do? I will do my best to be a great partner. We get on well, but I feel as though he just takes that as a sign that I have tacitly agreed to ignore everything and move forward. So is it constructive?

I have saved the evidence in multiple places. He got into my computer on exposure day because I was silly enough to let him take my phone - and I hadn't put a password on it. I now changed all my passwords for computer, email and phone so even if he has my phone and computer he wouldn't be able to get in to destroy evidence. I also sent it to one of his best friends from childhood and told his family about the evidence.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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This gaslighting explanation makes SO much sense!! Thank you. It is so hard to keep focused on what I know is true when someone is shifting the boundaries all the time. Thank you for the insight!


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Also, what I am learning is that when your partner is having an affair you WANT to believe the best, you really want to believe that it doesn't mean anything, that everything is over, etc etc. So you are fighting against your desire to be told reassuring information as well as his desire for you to believe his version of the story. So I am fighting against both myself and him and it is exhausting. I have been reading abrrba's thread and taking comfort that he is also experiencing some of the same stuff with his wife.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Also, what I am learning is that when your partner is having an affair you WANT to believe the best, you really want to believe that it doesn't mean anything, that everything is over, etc etc. So you are fighting against your desire to be told reassuring information as well as his desire for you to believe his version of the story. So I am fighting against both myself and him and it is exhausting. I have been reading abrrba's thread and taking comfort that he is also experiencing some of the same stuff with his wife.
Don't believe a waywards words because they are all liars. Only believe their actions. Is your WH willing to end the affair and move away from the OW now? If he refuses to do this you should go into Plan B now.


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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My problem is he makes some concessions but not enough. Then he tells me I am not recognising all the efforts he is making.

Plan B now would mean throwing him out and us staying here in the family house. Moving country will take more time because I will have to register the kids with a new school and sign a contract on a house - but school fees are already paid up until the end of the year in mid-June.

I guess if I start Plan B now, it might actually be more effective since it will be difficult to come back from a separation where we are in two different countries 5 hours flight apart (which is what would happen if i only started Plan B when he moves to his new job).

I have asked him to cancel his three planned work trips and he says he can't. I have also asked him to work from home, only going to scheduled meetings with people after telling me who they are, what the meeting is for and providing evidence to show it is real, until the end of his notice period. He also says that is not feasible but will "try to be at home as much as possible". I don't think that is good enough. He has always been at home a fair amount and STILL CHEATING. So it is just as good as doing nothing as far as I am concerned.

He has just called me now to say he has a surprise for me, he just wants me to relax and he will be home soon. I know it is a charm offensive to get me to take off the pressure. Or, less cynically, he really believes if he is super nice we can just forget about it and go back to normal


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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If he doesn't agree to cancel his work trips, should I go with him (i also have a job so that would be difficult)? Or should I just go straight to plan B and give up on the persuasion to quit the job, since it is clearly not working.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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He keeps saying he is willing to work on the marriage but I have to be reasonable. He wants to negotiate everything, tries to blame it on cultural differences, tells me there is no way a man can live like that, he will go insane, etc.

How can I do plan A when what he is telling me all the time is that he wants me to give him freedom? Being the best partner apparently means giving him freedom to do what he wants. I guess this is textbook stuff, isn't it?


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Plan A is not plan doormat. Plan A is being your best self, while insisting on conditions that make recovery possible. Certain conditions are nonnegotiable.

He will be able to live like that (just like millions of other men) and most certainly not go insane. You can tell him that if he really goes insane, you might reconsider negotiating.

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Plan B needs preparation. Use the time of plan A to prepare for plan B.

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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
How can I do plan A when what he is telling me all the time is that he wants me to give him freedom? Being the best partner apparently means giving him freedom to do what he wants. I guess this is textbook stuff, isn't it?
I'm not sure you are reading my posts. You should not be doing Plan A any more.


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chalkncheese, Plan A is inappropriate, you should be going into Plan B until he leaves that job and is serious about recovery. He is obviously not serious.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Thank you very much for your advice. I will try to move into plan B today or tomorrow.

We went away for the weekend and he showed more willingness to change, but not enough. So I will move to no contact.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Asking my husband to leave has created a situation. He says he will not go. He has taken my phone again and shut himself in my study.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Now he has left the house but he has taken all of the keys, my car keys, my phone, and the cable for my desktop computer. I had done some preparation for Plan B already, so I have now locked up our gate with a chain and padlock so that he can't come back in, but I am anxious about what is going to unfold.

Does Plan B normally start with confrontataions like this?


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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I don't feel I have enough insight to give the best advice.

The amount of control alarms me. Are you safe?

In your country, does he have the right to take your car keys and phone, or can you ask the law/police for help?

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I think I am safe. The gate is locked and we have a security company so I can press the panic button if there is a problem. I don't think the police would be much help with the phone and car keys. But I would call them if there was any shouting or violence.

He took my phone after the exposure too, but he brought it back. I am hoping he will do that again.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Can you at least file a complaint? Did you call the nearest embassy for help?

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If you get your keys back, have a duplicate made. And it is probably wise to buy a burner phone.

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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Does Plan B normally start with confrontataions like this?
Does that matter?

Call the police, and contact your embassy, for heavens sake.


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Thank you for the advice. I have now spoken to the embassy. They were a bit unsure how to help, given that the law prevents me from crossing the border, but they have agreed to circulate my and my children's names to the immigration officials at the border and alert the border police so that if I come to the border urgently needing to cross without permission of my husband, they might be able to help me.

He has now returned the car keys, house keys, my phone and my computer cable. I was not able to keep him out of the house last night so he broke in. But because I did not get angry, I think he is realising that this is no joke and he can't manipulate the situation. He is coming to fetch all of the bags of his clothes at 11am.

Last edited by chalkncheese; 02/21/17 02:41 AM.

BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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I'm sorry to read what you are going through. I went through something like this too, it isn't easy. Do you have a mother, brother or sister that can come and stay with you until you are ready to leave for good? He will not be able to manipulate the situation as easily if you have protection from another adult.

Oh and guard your children's passports and important documents as if your life depended on them. Put them somewhere really safe, preferably outside the house.


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Thanks Living Well. That's good advice - I have now hidden the passports and important documents just in case.

I packed up all his stuff into suitcases this morning. He said he would come and collect them at 11am. He didn't. Then he said he would come by 1pm, didn't turn up, and then called to say he won't now be available until 5pm. I suspect he just wants to leave it late because he thinks he can get back into the house if he comes at 5pm. So I have moved them out onto the road in the rain.

I am not mad, but I feel that this behaviour really exemplifies his disrespect for me: he can move mountains to find time for dates with OW, but can't even take 10 mins out of his work day to collect his stuff when my time is involved. So his suitcases are getting really wet now.



BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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I also spoke to the children's school to make them aware of the situation, and to let them know that I have told the children what is going on in case there are any tears at school. The school said they will implement my wishes that the children are not allowed to leave with WH, but they were worried that he might get a court order to enable him to. We are in an African country and therefore a father's rights over their children are held in high regard. To protect myself, I am now going to ask our embassy to give me written confirmation of my conversations with them so that if I was called to court I can demonstrate that I raised my concerns about the children first. Any other ideas about how I can protect the children?


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Yes, great idea to alert the school.

Best way to protect your children is to tell them the truth about what is going on. Have you done that? Every one of them except your baby needs to know what your husband has done. Keep it factual. Do not be surprised at how much they have already guessed, children are big snoopers.


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Yes, i have told them. I said this: "Papa has a girlfriend and that is not allowed when you are married. I have packed up his stuff because he has not agreed to break up with his girlfriend. I love him and I want him to come back home, but he can't be at home when he still has a girlfriend because that hurts me very much."


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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But he is outside in the garage right now asking the kids to choose between me and him. I am really glad I spoke to them first and emphasised how we all love him, and want him to come home to us, but that he can't do that when he still has a girlfriend because that will make me cry every day.

However, what do I do when he is telling the kids that I am telling lies about him? He is telling them he doesn't have a girlfriend. Sigh. They are so small (7, 6 and 5) so I guess they won't understand. But if I continue to remind them that I love him and I want him to come home then maybe they will get it.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
However, what do I do when he is telling the kids that I am telling lies about him? He is telling them he doesn't have a girlfriend. Sigh. They are so small (7, 6 and 5) so I guess they won't understand. But if I continue to remind them that I love him and I want him to come home then maybe they will get it.


So glad you told the children. They understand more than you think. If they ask you questions, answer them honestly. Otherwise let them process in peace.


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Thank you Goody2Shoes - I will start documenting right now! I am so grateful for all this advice. I wouldn't know what to do without being guided like this.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Thank you Living Well. Yes, I am also really glad to have told the kids. I was really reluctant about it at first - there seems to be so much bias in society about giving children information - but I was surprised how matter-of-fact they were. And it made it so much easier to update them with developments when he moved out of the house just now and came to get his clothes. If I hadn't explained everything to them first, he would have had complete power over the situation and would have been able to manipulate them into thinking I am throwing him out - rather than him choosing to leave his family by virtue of breaking his marriage vows.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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If your children are that young, their schooling will not be affected by moving back to your base country immediately. I recently retired from a very senior position in a large oil and gas company who had country heads like you describe as being your husband's position. I also know that for your husband's company to have country heads who are expats that he works for a very large entity, as well, which means they have and Ethics & Compliance Office and an Ethics & Compliance Helpline to who you can report what is going on. If they are using company time and company resources to conduct their affairs, it is a violation of the company's Code of Conduct and it will be stopped. Also, if you contact Human Resources in the corporate headquarters and tell them what is going on, I strongly suspect they will repatriate you very quickly without any need to worry about leaving the country. These large corporations have very good relations with the local governments and will step in if your husband tries to pull something stupid.


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Thanks Brits Brat, we are from two different countries with two different languages (English and French) and we work in development rather than private sector. My husband was recruited locally to the position in the country we live in now, which is foreign to both of us, and therefore does not have a repatriation package. It is very complicated actually.

I work across the border in the neighbouring country and it would be most practical for me to move the children there now that we have moved into Plan B. If I moved them back to my home country, I would not have a job to be able to support them or even to pay for plane tickets. And I am quite daunted by the idea of being single with four kids and not being able to afford house help (which is one of the benefits of living in a developing country).



BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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My husband came to collect all his clothes that I had packed yesterday evening. He spent an hour or so with the kids in the garage giving them his version of events, but then left quietly. I guess I am now fully in Plan B. I gave him a hard copy of the plan B letter, explaining that I love him and want him to come home if he can stop his affair and commit to a lifestyle where we eliminate risks of future cheating, but he refused to take it (I sent it by email to, to both him and his OW, so I know he has a copy though). He also made a big show of calling his parents as he was walking out the door, telling them angrily how unreasonable I am, how I am making demands he can't accept as a man, how he has apologised but I am still throwing him out, how I am making him sleep outside "like a dog" etc. I suspect his family don't agree with my course of action anymore, despite being supportive of me initially. They are firmly of the belief that a "man" should have his freedoms. But all in all, I am relieved at the calmness that has come back to our house. The kids and I have decided to pray for God to open Papa's eyes so that he changes his mind and comes back to us in addition to saying grace every mealtime. I think that helps them keep in mind that it is him that needs to change, not me.

I am really sad now, I guess I am starting my own withdrawal, but I know it is the right thing to do because he would never change if I continued to enable him. He still might not change now, but at least there is a chance.

I have also been contacted by the best friend of OW, one of the people I exposed to through facebook, threatening to make a complaint that my husband used his position at work to get sexual favours. Should I do anything about that message? My instinct is just to ignore it, but take it as a sign that exposure is having the desired effect in destabilising the OW and therefore the relationship.

My worry right now is that my husband has three week-long work trips starting on Monday, so the impact of Plan B and exposure might be less since he is essentially escaping the mess here at home. I asked him to cancel them but he refused - but I guess that shows I had no option other than to continue with Plan B since he was obviously not prioritising marriage at all.

The kids seem to be taking everything really well, so I am really proud of them.



BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Good job. How is your support system? When you first go into Plan B it will be emotional, but it will get better especially if you're dark and don't hear any garbage from your WH. Do you have an IM?

And make sure you are documenting everything.

Also, the comment from the OW's BF about him using his position to get sexual favours could be truthful and that is all on your WH's head. If he gets a sexual harassment complaint because of his affair is one of the consequences due to his choice of having an affair.

Have you read the parallel parenting thread that is in the Plan B thread?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Hi Brain Hurts,

Support system is OK but not great. I have a couple of good friends here, but they are the wives of my husband's friends and I have noticed that other married people tend to withdraw into themselves when one couple is going through serious challenges.

I have told my family back home what is going on, but I have been a very independent person for my whole life, so I am not sure they would know how to support me emotionally if I needed it. My husband's family were initially very supportive of me, but I think they now don't agree with me throwing him out of the house, so I might have lost that support.

At least I have a job which gives me something to keep my mind occupied and I have the kids who are such a joy.

I am getting to work documenting everything now.



BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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PS. Yes, I have an intermediary now and yes I have read the parallel parenting thread (very useful). I have told my husband that he will be able to take the kids every Saturday, liaising with the IM about a suitable place and time where the kids can meet him. But he is travelling for the next 3 weeks and said he will not see the kids. I don't know if I should push it (by asking the IM to send him a reminder message on Saturday morning) or just leave it at that.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Just leave it at that, but make sure to document that you offered for him to see the kids but that he didn't. Don't do anything extra for him. Let him deal with everything so gets the full experience of not having his family around. Another consequence of his choices to have an affair.


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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I am so so sad. I have lost my best friend. This is really hard.

My friends here seem to not be supportive of Plan B or of telling the children - although my family back home do.

Does anyone have any advice for getting through this real low period at the start of plan B?


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I am so so sad. I have lost my best friend. This is really hard.

My friends here seem to not be supportive of Plan B or of telling the children - although my family back home do.

Does anyone have any advice for getting through this real low period at the start of plan B?

Hi CNC!
I used to live in Africa... welcome to MB.

The best thing is to keep yourself busy with things you like. Play with the kids, paint your toe nails... whatever craft or fun hobby- good moment for it.
Do not go talking to friends and family about all of this. Believe it or not- it keeps it on your mind and hurts your heart worse.
So try to stop talking about him and just go pamper yourself as much as you can.
I even made a list on my phone of ideas to do when I felt bad and couldn't think. I made a list of my favorite things to think about other than husband as well. Puppy dogs. Flowers. Rainbows. Etc. I got a lot of those pics on my phone and would look at them!!!



BW-3 Kids
Sep:2014
Divorced

"I was not delivered unto this world in defeat, nor does failure course in my veins. I am not a sheep waiting to be prodded by my shepherd. I am a lion and I refuse to talk, to walk, to sleep with the sheep. I will hear not those who weep and complain, for their disease is contagious. Let them join the sheep. The slaughterhouse of failure is not my destiny.
I will persist until I succeed." Og Mandino
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Thanks a lot Elania. Yes, I will try to keep my mind off everything. I have realised that talking to other people is a bit soul destroying. They always have different opinions about what is the "best" thing to do and can't really empathise with my situation.

I have a question about a hypothetical future: if he decides to come back hat in hand but still refuses to be honest about all the things that he has done, is it possible to move forward? Does that depend on whether or not I can accept that I will never know the truth? Or is full confession an essential part of his personal commitment to creating a new marriage for the future? I have read the article and letters on the website about Just Compensation, but knowing my husband I am not sure I will ever get the truth.

Have any other MBers moved forward with recovery without 100% honesty about the affair/s?


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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One more question: is once a week for a day too much or too little contact between my husband and the kids? I have no idea what is an appropriate amount of contact time. In the Plan B letter I committed to one day per week, but I am now wondering if I should keep every other Saturday for me to be with the kids myself. Otherwise I only get the chore part of looking after them, not the fun days.

It is important that he feels the loss of his family and all the benefits from marriage. But the kids love their father too. Any advice appreciated.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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It deprends on the age of the child.
If Saturday does not suit you designate a time/day that is suitable for you.
You do not have to give him access for an entire day abd you can arrange the conditions in a way that makes you feel the children will be safe.

If you cannot leave the country without your husbands permission, how can you be sure that he cannot take them and has them live somewhere else?


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Honesty is bedrock essential. If he is not willing to be honest, your marriage will have no chance. Considering he is a serial cheater, your chances are not the best to start with.

Is the baby old enough to be without its mother for a full day?

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Thanks Happyheart. He also cannot take the children across the border without my permission, so I know he can't take them anywhere. I have alerted my embassy of the risk, and I believe this information has been communicated to the border guards, but I will check again in the morning. I have dual citizenship for the country next door to us (the only country we border), so even if he was to cross the border with the kids through faking documents, it would be into my country (even though i do not consider it my home since i have no relatives there) and I would be able to call the police.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Thank you Goody2Shoes. This is a good reminder that if there was ever a chance for him to come back, he would have to be an entirely different person really.

No, i don't think the baby is old enough to be away from me. He could see her for an hour or so, but he wouldn't be able to cope with things like changing nappies or feeding. So I was planning just to send the three boys and keep the baby with me.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Another question: I don't think my WH has told anyone that he has moved out. I think keeping this news secret means he is not feeling the pressure that his family and friends would be putting on him if they knew. Should I be communicating this news to people, as I did with exposure (although leaving the work and OW's contacts out of it)?

Also, if my family (mum, sister, brother) wants to contact him to express their outrage at his behaviour, is that recommended if we are in Plan B or should I tell them not to and just leave him alone?


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Don't avoid he topic if it comes up, but don't contact people with this purpose. Plan B is avoiding thinking of him, so you'd better spend that time painting your toenails or watching videos of baby penguins.

And for your family, by all means, if they want to tell him how they feel about it, let them. Just ask them not to share his response with you. Ask them not to talk about him at all.

Print out labels with his new address or "return to sender", so you have as little as possible trouble with his mail. Just stick a label on it and post it once a week. Or even better, have your personnel take care of that.

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Since you are just starting in plan B, it is probably not watertight yet. If he slips through and you are confronted with him, don't share personal info. You don't have time to talk because the food is in the microwave/the doorbell rang/your nailpolish needs to dry and you need to take care of that. Have some answer ready, don't be tempted to engage in conversation.

Did you already change your phone-number? Did you change your e-mail? Does he still have physical access to your house if he wants?

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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I have a question about a hypothetical future: if he decides to come back hat in hand but still refuses to be honest about all the things that he has done, is it possible to move forward? Does that depend on whether or not I can accept that I will never know the truth? Or is full confession an essential part of his personal commitment to creating a new marriage for the future? I have read the article and letters on the website about Just Compensation, but knowing my husband I am not sure I will ever get the truth.

Have any other MBers moved forward with recovery without 100% honesty about the affair/s?

I don't think you understand what 'hat in hand' means. It means making a complete 100% change and being willing to do *whatever it takes* to salvage your marriage. Obviously, if he were to come back with exceptions to this, he is not 'hat in hand' at all, and he is not serious at all.

Being honest is about more than showing a commitment to the marriage too. It is about affair proofing your marriage. You are married to a serial cheater, and if he continues to withhold information from you and is not ready to commit to radical honesty, you can never know where the threats are or how to protect your marriage both from affairs of the past and threats in the present and future.

Bottom line is, if he is not willing to agree to radical honesty (and I would even require a polygraph if it is available in your country, given his serial cheating), he is not serious at all.

But then again, this is hypothetical at this point because he is showing no willingness to do any of this.

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Thanks Goody2Shoes. I guess I have to work on getting him totally out of my head. I can already feel that being in Plan B has decreased my stress so much, so I know it is the right thing to do. We don't get physical mail, so that's not a problem. But I do need to get accustomed to this new reality which seems to have come about so quickly. After 10 years of cheating and stress, it is a big change to suddenly be living in calm.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Did you already change your phone-number? Did you change your e-mail? Does he still have physical access to your house if he wants?

I will change my phone number on Monday. Just have to get to the store in the neighbouring country since I am roaming. I will change my email address now - I hadn't thought of that.

He doesn't have the keys to the house anymore or the buzzer to open the gate, so he can't get in without someone letting him in. If he came here angrily trying to force his way in, we probably wouldn't be able to keep him out. Although he seems to have accepted the no contact arrangement with smses about practical issues going through the IM, so I am no longer anxious about him trying to force his way back home. He seems resigned to what has happened now.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Bottom line is, if he is not willing to agree to radical honesty (and I would even require a polygraph if it is available in your country, given his serial cheating), he is not serious at all.

Thank you unwritten. This is an important reality check. I need to lower my expectations and just focus on me and the kids. I've done everything I can. Thank you for your advice.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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When I get my new phone number, should I give it to my family in law or not? Obviously, if I give it to them they could easily give it to WH. But I feel uncomfortable about preventing them from contacting me to keep in touch with the kids, especially since I am raising a child who is biologically theirs but not mine (from a previous affair of my husband's).

I am also wondering if I should establish contact with the mother of the child now that I am in plan B. We cut off contact with her when we brought the boy to live with us. But now it is a bit complicated if I am living apart from his biological father.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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It really depends on the situation. Does he see you as his mother, the relationship between you and the child, the relationship with the siblings, can you handle everything, finances, your emotional wellbeing.

For a child that is integrated in a family, it would be very hard to be ripped out of that, especially if his egoistic father is the only biological parent he could realistically be going to.

I don't know about the legal measures - did you adopt him, etc. This may be a case where you would want to contact Dr. Harley for advice, although you are the one who has to make a decision you can live with.

I suspect it may also have to do with the character of the child, because a difficult temperament can lead to resentment, even in biological parents.





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Thanks Happy Heart. Yes, he sees me as his mother and my other children as his siblings. He has lived with us since he was 3 years old. We are close and he is a confident, loving and emotionally secure little boy. But we are different races, which does make me worry for the future.

We have been trying to finalise adoption for a few years, but it was complicated by the fact that we are living in a third country that neither my husband nor I are from. We first tried to do the adoption in my country, but because we were not living there permanently, social services could not do a "surprise" visit to check on our home arrangements. We then tried to do it in our country of residence, but we found that was impossible because we do not have permanent residence here and the child is not from here. So we have now initiated the process in the child's home country, but I have no idea how long it will take and whether it is even possible to complete if I have separated from my husband in the meantime. I guess it will depend on the consent of both biological parents. I think they are unlikely to withhold it, since he is happy and thriving with his half-siblings, and I am willing to support him both emotionally and financially until adulthood.

Thank you for the suggestion to contact Dr Harley. I will do that.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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My husband is already trying to send messages saying he misses me and loves me. But I think it is too soon for there to be any actual change, since I only started plan B 3 days ago. Should I just ignore these approaches? He is not showing any concrete change (not leaving his job, not doing anything to implement extraordinary precautions, showing no inclination towards radical honesty, still prioritising his job over everything else, etc) just words, which I guess shows he is just missing the cake-eating rather than anything else. Right?


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Hat in hand, repentant and willing to implement all extraordinary precautions mentioned in your plan B letter.

Since he is sending messages to you and not your IM, he didn't get the message yet.

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Don't respond.

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Don't respond.

Thank you! Will maintain NC.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
My husband is already trying to send messages saying he misses me and loves me. But I think it is too soon for there to be any actual change, since I only started plan B 3 days ago. Should I just ignore these approaches? He is not showing any concrete change (not leaving his job, not doing anything to implement extraordinary precautions, showing no inclination towards radical honesty, still prioritising his job over everything else, etc) just words, which I guess shows he is just missing the cake-eating rather than anything else. Right?

It is not Plan B to receive this fogbabble. Your IM should not even be forwarding it to you. And if it did not go through your IM but to you directly, you need to find a way to close up the holes so he has no access to you.

When you hear this fogbabble it sets you back and causes you emotional damage, which is what you are trying to prevent in Plan B. Don't just ignore this talk, fill up your Plan B holes so it never gets to you in the first place.

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Thank you unwritten. He sent it to my work email account, so even though I had changed my personal email, it got through. I have now asked our IT dept to bounce back emails from his address. I am already starting to see how valuable the clarity that comes with plan B is. It really helps you adjust to the fact that he would have to move mountains in order to fix this - and there is very little chance that he has that motivation.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Good job on having his emails bounced back from your work email. Are there any other holes you can think of? Be prepared that he gets a new email address to use to get through to you.

When you get your phone number changed I wouldn't give it to anyone that could give it to him. How often do your in laws try and communicate with the children? If they don't communicate with them often you could email them and ask them to communicate with you through email?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Hi Brain Hurts,

Thanks for the encouragement. The inlaws don't normally try to communicate with the kids through me. They have always spoken to them when they called my husband before now. But since that isn't an option anymore, I thought they might try to call me directly. Although that hasn't been the case so far (one week into Plan B).

I am having quite a lot of tearful moments and mood swings. Also, thinking back over all the things that have happened the past few years and reinterpreting events in light of what I now know: that my husband is a serial cheater who just does not respect marriage at all. I feel as though I am beginning to hate him. Is that a normal reaction? My entire marriage and family life has been a complete lie.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I am having quite a lot of tearful moments and mood swings. Also, thinking back over all the things that have happened the past few years and reinterpreting events in light of what I now know: that my husband is a serial cheater who just does not respect marriage at all. I feel as though I am beginning to hate him. Is that a normal reaction? My entire marriage and family life has been a complete lie.


Completely normal and be kind to yourself. Your brain has to remap to a different reality. That means going through every memory and changing it. Very tiring and takes time but you will emerge from this feeling at peace.


3 adult children
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Thank you for the supportive words. This site is such a help to me at the moment and I really appreciate everyone who has taken the time to advise me through this process.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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This morning I had a bit of a shock. My husband's girlfriend followed me into the car park of our local mall, parked behind my car, and then started shouting at me.

She was digging her finger in my chest, pushing me and then hitting my car, shouting at me all the while. She called me a "white c**t" and when I said "why are you pushing me?" she shouted "I will do MUCH worse that that" then she bent back the wing mirror of my car and walked off in a huff.

I am worried because before this incident, I had never met her and was not aware that she knew who i was and knew what my car looks like. I reported the incident to the police but I have had to travel this afternoon, so I will have to wait until I return home on Thursday to get a reference number.

Should I inform my husband of this incident? Should I do anything more than I have already done by reporting it to the police?


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Good job on reporting it to the police. What did the police say? Can you get a restraining order against her?

Start carrying a VAR on you in case she does this again.


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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The police didn't seem very interested. But I have made an appointment to go and follow up in person on Thursday. I will press to see if I can get a restraining order because I am honestly quite scared. She seemed very unhinged.

My husband has today demanded that I take over paying rent for the house now that he is staying somewhere else. Does anyone have any advice on how to respond to this request? My instinct is just to ignore it, since his is the name on the contract and I don't see why he should suddenly be relieved of responsibility for the housing of his wife and children just because he has broken our marriage vows while I have done nothing.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
The police didn't seem very interested. But I have made an appointment to go and follow up in person on Thursday. I will press to see if I can get a restraining order because I am honestly quite scared. She seemed very unhinged.

My husband has today demanded that I take over paying rent for the house now that he is staying somewhere else. Does anyone have any advice on how to respond to this request? My instinct is just to ignore it, since his is the name on the contract and I don't see why he should suddenly be relieved of responsibility for the housing of his wife and children just because he has broken our marriage vows while I have done nothing.

Definitely get a restraining order, and file charges if you can for the threat. Exercise caution when you go out and call the police if you see her, she sounds like a nutjob crazy

Do you have a lawyer yet? If so, you should let your lawyer deal with WH and/or his lawyer about paying for the house. In the US he would still have a legal obligation to pay.

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I don't have a lawyer yet. But I think it is a good idea to get one. I will investigate.

I am getting so much abuse from my husband's family. They honestly blame me, rather than him. He is having to answer questions at work and they are telling me that it is all my fault because of the exposure. None of them seem to recognise the fact that all I am doing is trying to break up his affair. HE is the one who is having the affair at work!!! So surely any consequences he suffers for that are also his responsibility not mine!!

They are phoning me and shouting and shouting. I feel so down. All I have been doing is trying to fight for my marriage. It is like they all want me to just accept whatever his behaviour is and keep quiet.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Maybe they all believe that actual cheating is not that bad compared with washing your dirty linen in public.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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I would love to read experiences of anyone else who had a really bad reaction from exposure but then recovered.....it would be a big help right now.....


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I am getting so much abuse from my husband's family.
[..]
They are phoning me and shouting and shouting. I feel so down. All I have been doing is trying to fight for my marriage. It is like they all want me to just accept whatever his behaviour is and keep quiet.
Change your phone nr asap. Don't pick up the phone if they call you. Don't check Facebook.

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You sound very level headed and like you are thinking strategically rather than giving into emotions. I want to applaud you for that as it is not easy, and most posters here struggle to do this. But it will give you the best opportunity for recovery in the long run, whether that is recovering your marriage or personal recovery.

I would Plan B WH's family at this point too. Not everyone is going to embrace exposure, but you don't need to listen to or respond to any of the negativity either.

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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I would love to read experiences of anyone else who had a really bad reaction from exposure but then recovered.....it would be a big help right now.....

Everyone has at least one naysayer who tells them they are wrong for doing it I'm sure.

But many people who have recovered their marriages credit exposure for their recovery.

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THank you Goody2Shoes. I tried to change my number this morning but the company said it will take a few days to cancel my contract and start up a new one with a new sim. Will try to follow up again in the morning.

Yes, I guess just ignoring them all is the best thing.



BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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I am really annoyed with myself. I talked to my husband after all the abuse that I have been getting from his family. We have been exchanging angry text messages and calls.

I know rationally that he is in the fog and nothing he says is real but it is so hurtful. He tried to tell me that it wasn't his girlfriend who accosted me in the mall, he claims it was her friend (she introduced herself and I have seen enough pictures to be able to recognise this person when I see them....). He keeps telling me that I am making him live outside the house "like a dog" and that I am not this "innocent little girl" I pretend to be after what I have done (the exposure). I try to tell him that breaking your marriage vows by cheating is not the same as my actions to try to break up the affair. You can't equate those two things. Fidelity is the main agreement of marriage. You do not commit to always be under the same roof, or not to embarrass your husband when you say your vows. He says fidelity is not the only marriage vow. I also vowed to protect him and by exposing him I am breaking my marriage vows.

He has turned his whole family against me with his anger. He keeps saying he is making appointments with the lawyer and he wants to divorce. I say you don't have any grounds for divorce since i have not broken my vows. You can't just decide to get rid of your wife because she tries to prevent you from maintaining an affair.....marriage is not a game. You can't just decide to finish it and it magically disappears.

But really he just thinks he can win back control of the situation by getting an external person to tell me I am wrong. He believes that he is so persuasive that he can convince a lawyer, counsellor, anyone external, that I am completely irrational and therefore I must let him back in the house. I keep telling him, you are not married to those people so the only person you have to convince is me. THe only person with the power to let you back in your house is your wife. And I will only agree to that if you accept to implement extraordinary precautions. He then says "I agree to all those things". But he hasn't actually DONE anything, so I know it is all lies and manipulation. He always does that. Pretends to agree because he knows he can manipulate his way out of actually doing the thing when it comes down to it.

That is one of the things that has made me so resolute that I will not accept him back in the house because I know how he acts when I want to look at his phone. He says "you can look at it anytime" while holding it out of my reach with his arm and deleting everything in front of me. Saying one thing and doing totally the opposite. That is how he conducts his life.

Sorry for the long post. Just wanted to document it all. And try to convince myself that I can keep ignoring this fogbabble.



BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Why do you take his calls? Get yourself a new phone nr. today, give your nr to all relevant contacts (your work, family and IM) and DON'T turn on your phone with our current nr. again. Don't respond to fog-babble.

You just got out of a burning house, don't go back inside. You will get severely burnt.

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Why did you break Plan B to talk to him? All he did was try to gaslight you and all the healing you did is back to square one?

What are you going to do to avoid breaking Plan B again?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Thank you Goody2Shoes and Brain Hurts. It was because of the girlfriend accosting me and threatening me. It really unsettled me - and I guess I just (stupidly) thought that he might have some negative opinion of her for behaving like that. And then at the same time his family were calling and shouting at me so much because he had called them to say that I had got him sacked. They consider him to be the only breadwinner of the family and so perceive the exposure to his workplace (even though I did not do it directly) as me attacking their financial stability. They fail to acknowledge that it is actually ME who sends them money every month from the salary that I EARN, so attacking me is attacking their financial stability. But reason doesn't seem to help.

I have cancelled my phone number now and get my new contract in the morning. I was doing so well with plan B frown. But I am restarting right now. He is going away for a conference tomorrow for 10 days, so that makes it easier.

Thank you for putting me back on track.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Sorry for the long post. Just wanted to document it all. And try to convince myself that I can keep ignoring this fogbabble.
You don't need to ignore it, you need to implement plan B, so you don't hear it.

Can you update on how you are going to repair the gaping holes in your plan B? It helps if you write it here, so we can keep you accountable. We are in your corner and don't want you to get yourself beaten up again.

Next time you are tempted to pick up the phone/turn your phone on, what is your plan to stop yourself from getting abused?

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Originally Posted by BrainHurts
What are you going to do to avoid breaking Plan B again?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Not only does breaking Plan B set you back, but it sent a message to him. The message is that even though you say no more contact until he agrees to your conditions, you don't really mean that. If he tries hard enough you will fold. If he has others harass you on his behalf it will work. And when you do contact him, you will entertain his crazy fogbabble and gas lighting.

In other words, it is sending the message that he is still in control. Is that what you want?

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Thank you unwritten. I missed your posts somehow when I checked yesterday. I really appreciate your supportive words. I am trying to be calm and level headed. But it is a huge effort. My husband and his family are revealing themselves to be incredibly manipulative and seem to think it is normal to continually move the goalposts in a discussion in order to confuse the other person into submission. It is hard to keep a firm grip on the truth among all the gas-lighting and the continual assertions that I am a terrible wife for not "protecting" my husband from the consequences of his actions. They really seem to believe that the worst offence a wife could ever do is to put her husband outside the house. They totally ignore the fact that living under the same roof was not part of our marriage vows.....whereas fidelity definitely was.....


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Thank you Unwritten, Goody2Shoes and Brain Hurts, I think my problem was the phone number. My main phone number is a roaming one from the neighbouring country (where I work), so I was not able to change it while I was at home. I bought a new burner phone with a local number last week (when my husband took my usual phone, computer cable and laptop to prevent me communicating with anyone), but since everyone still knew my roaming number, I was not really out of contact. I am now in the neighbouring country for two days and will pick up my new contract sim card with new number this morning.

The abuse I have received during the past few days has given me much needed extra confirmation that no contact with him or his family is the best possible option for my mental health. My husband has also changed his phone numbers (pretending that he is not continuing his affair) so luckily I do not know his new ones by heart.

When I arrive back at home, I will follow up on the police report that I filed against the girlfriend on Monday and try to get a restraining order. She really scared me by knowing who I was and what my car looked like and threatening me. I have also received threatening messages from two of her friends on facebook. I hope that these incidents/communications are sufficient to enable me to get a restraining order. I thought that because she was so angry it was an indication that exposure had worked to break up their affair, but my husband's insistence that it was not her that confronted me shows that he still prioritises her feelings above mine by a long way. frown

I am slightly concerned that the prevailing societal attitude in this part of the world that cheating is normal and that women should not embarrass their husbands in public, whatever they have done, will affect my chances of obtaining legal protection. But we will see.

My husband is travelling to a conference today and will be away for 10 days, which is actually very helpful for re-establishing my plan B. He has told his family and friends that he will be questionned by his boss about the situation at home, as a result of my exposure to OW's facebook friends (who forwarded my message around the local office). He has been telling everyone that I have sabotaged his career and that I want to destroy him. He told his parents that I don't want him to work at all and that I want to keep him in the house, totally dependent on me (therefore depriving him of everything that makes him "a man"). They have always been suspicious of the fact that I earn around the same as him and have an equally senior job (not that they recognise my contribution to the family or household at all), so they are predisposed to believe rubbish like that.

I do not believe that he really thinks he will get sacked - nor that, if he did, he would struggle to find something else. He is highly qualified, smart and good at his work. His family have no idea about the world of work or the industry we work in, so he can say anything and they would believe him. He also uses their ignorance to make a huge fuss about my request that he stay at home for the remainder of his time in the country rather than go to the office where the OW is. Since no one knows what the job of a manager involves, they have no idea that my request is totally feasible and reasonable. I am also a senior manager, and I know that the worst that would happen if he stayed at home would be some minor frustration in the office that he was not as available as normal - but since he is leaving anyway, it wouldn't cause any serious problems. The worst that will happen when he gets his "talking to" from his bosses is that he will get a slap on his wrist and a warning - especially since he is already moving to a new job within the same organisation in a different country at the beginning of May. If he were staying in this country, I am sure his bosses would make efforts to move him to another location before sacking him, since he has a successful track record and is good at his work.

However, no one is interested in my reasoning.....

My sister in law told me my father in law has decided to come to visit us in April to "sort out our problems". She shouted at me "why couldn't you just WAIT until April???", as if I could be in the same house as my husband every day while he is continuing his affair, waiting for an "intervention" from my father in law - which i am extremely dubious about anyway. My mother in law tells me (paraphrasing) "your husband says the affair is over - so why are you making so much fuss?", which makes me feel so powerless and depressed. Everyone believes his lies. Everyone seems to blame me. How can this situation where I and my kids are the victims have been twisted to punish me so much?



BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Can his family get a hold of you now or is that hole closed?

Whatever happened with the police complaint you made about the OW threatening you?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Number changed now - phew! Hi BrainHurts, no, his family cannot get in touch with me anymore now that I have the new number. I have only given it to my work colleagues and my family in my home country and my IM. Taking this step has already lifted a weight off my mind. I also went to a sexual health clinic this morning to be tested for everything just in case.

I made the police complaint on Monday but, because it happened just an hour or so before i had to go to the airport for a four-day trip, I had to do it over the phone. The detective I spoke to told me to come in in person when I get back. I am just in the airport flying back now, so I will try to get to the police station before it closes.

I wanted to make the complaint immediately on Monday just in case they have a 24 hour or 48 hour limit on reporting incidents. I took the name of the officer and his direct line so I hope I will be able to formalise everything this afternoon.

I am not sure how the police system works here, but I will try to press charges for harassment and also use the police report to apply for a protection or restraining order. I have a lawyer who I think can help.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Good to stay on top of it.

Do you think you have all your Plan B holes closed?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Hi BrainHurts,

Yes, I think all the plan B holes are closed now. But my IM tells me that he has been calling her this week to ask where I am and what I am doing - not loads of details, but he wanted to know the dates of my work trip, when I was coming back, then called again to check I was back, and the arrangements for the kids while I was away. I told the IM that I don't mind this information being shared as far as it concerns arrangements for the kids since I want it to be clear that I am managing everything fine. But do you think she (IM) should be refusing to answer questions?



BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Have you sent the IM training link, that is in the Plan B thread, to your IM? She shouldn't be sharing anything with you that doesn't pertain to finances or children. She needs to act as a SPAM filter and not let his garbage get through. She can respond to say "nothing will be sent to chalkncheeae" to any of his questions and then ignore him if he continues to try and dig for information. She will need to stay firm or she will break. She needs to know she needs to protect you.

Do you have the IM training link to send to her?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Thanks a lot Brain Hurts. I will go and review the IM training bit and send to her. Thank you.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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I would like to ask advice on something that I know will happen so I want to be prepared.

My parents in law are planning to fly to see us in April to have a family conference to help sort out our marriage. Because of the cultural background of my family in law, they believe that all problems can be solved through discussion and they prioritise the husband and wife living together under the same roof. The fact that WH is outside of the house seems to be consider the worst possible act a wife could ever do - even though I keep trying to explain to everyone that it is not ME who betrayed the marriage, it is HIM. And he is outside because he refused to do what was necessary to end the affair.

So, when they come, how should I handle the situation since I am in Plan B? If I ignore them or refuse to participate in these family discussions then I would definitely be sending the message that I do not want to save my marriage (which is not true). But to engage with them would break my Plan B. Maybe it would be an opportunity to explain to them, as I wrote to my husband in the Plan B letter, that I love him and I want our marriage, but that we have to agree on a plan for recovery that includes the elimination of risk before we can discuss moving forward. Any advice appreciated.



BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Paint your toenails, watch videos of baby penguins.

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laugh Thank you goody2shoes! Off to do that right now....


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Change the locks of you haven't already. You have no obligation to meet with them.

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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I would like to ask advice on something that I know will happen so I want to be prepared.

My parents in law are planning to fly to see us in April to have a family conference to help sort out our marriage. Because of the cultural background of my family in law, they believe that all problems can be solved through discussion and they prioritise the husband and wife living together under the same roof. The fact that WH is outside of the house seems to be consider the worst possible act a wife could ever do - even though I keep trying to explain to everyone that it is not ME who betrayed the marriage, it is HIM. And he is outside because he refused to do what was necessary to end the affair.

So, when they come, how should I handle the situation since I am in Plan B? If I ignore them or refuse to participate in these family discussions then I would definitely be sending the message that I do not want to save my marriage (which is not true). But to engage with them would break my Plan B. Maybe it would be an opportunity to explain to them, as I wrote to my husband in the Plan B letter, that I love him and I want our marriage, but that we have to agree on a plan for recovery that includes the elimination of risk before we can discuss moving forward. Any advice appreciated.

What if you tell the in laws that they should not fly in unless he has ended the affair? Basically saying nothing including the conference will be done if the affair has not ended. Can you demand that from them? Be firm.


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On Friday I finalised police report against OW and then took the case number to my lawyer. Unfortunately, it seems as though my husband had already been talking to the lawyer (tiny country, and we both only know one lawyer) in an effort to get a restraining order against me (?????!!) to prevent me from sending any more exposure messages to anyone.

However, since his request was clearly unreasonable, I am a betrayed spouse with four children who hasn't done anything wrong, and I am a very calm and reasonable person, I still had quite a productive discussion with the lawyer. He advised that before applying for a court order against OW, he would first prefer to invite her to his office to make her aware of the police complaint I have filed and to make her aware that her threatening behaviour towards me is likely to leave her with a criminal record. He believes that delivering this news is the most effective way to achieve what I want: for her to leave my kids and I alone. I agreed to that because I have no desire to get people in serious trouble for vindictive reasons and what I really want is to feel safe when walking around with my kids and not having to look over my shoulder all the time.

We then had a broader discussion about the marriage issues, since my husband had already been complaining to him in a fit of rage (he had just discovered that my exposure message to OW's friends on facebook had been forwarded around his work, even though I did not directly expose to his work). Interestingly, he said that I seem like I am in a vulnerable situation and he would advise me to take power for myself my informing my husband that I will not be accompanying him in his move for his new job and will instead take the kids with me live near where I work (the neighbouring country to where we live now) - which is essentially Plan B. However, he also suggested that he try to mediate between us to establish a negotiated agreement for the way forward that 1) enables us to reconcile and 2) protects my husband's job. I explained that I love my husband and I would like to reconcile, but that I can't accept a lifestyle with the myriad opportunities for cheating that our current lifestyle involves. He said he understands that trust is totally destroyed and that no marriage can survive like that. He also asked if I was prepared to accept the outcome if my husband decides that he can't make the necessary changes, so I said yes.

The reason I feel slightly uneasy about this proposed mediation is that I think I will be pressured into agreeing that my husband must maintain some freedom in order for us to reconcile. I do not want to enter into a negotiation where my dealbreakers will be watered down into compromises - because there really can't be any compromises if we want to totally eliminate the risk of cheating for the future.

I was thinking that I should specify when the lawyer contacts me again that I will not start any discussions without proof that the affair is finished and demonstration that my husband has implemented extraordinary precautions to prevent any contact between him and OW. Do you think that would be a reasonable way forward?

I could then say (as Dr S Harley suggested in the IM school notes) that we are on the edge right now and there is a high risk of any reconciliation failing if we do not have support from an appropriate counsellor in establishing a recovery plan and monitoring how we go along. I don't think the lawyer is in a position to help us establish a recovery plan.....

We ended the meeting with the lawyer saying he would call my husband in order to discuss calling OW into the office. All in all, I am not sure how I feel about this whole thing. It is obvious that my husband is totally fogged out and that what he has said to the lawyer is based around protecting his affair at my expense. He has also told other people that I have ruined OW's reputation by exposing the affair (funny how he seems to totally ignore the fact that she is sleeping with a married man with four kids....) and that I have also tried to destroy his career (again, funny how he seems to be ignorant to the fact that HE risked his job by sleeping with a direct report at work). I think when people talk to me, then it becomes obvious that my husband's behaviour and reactions are crazy - especially since I keep telling everyone he is getting all angry and trying to divorce me essentially because I am upset about him cheating. And what wife would not be upset about their husband cheating?!!






BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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You need a new lawyer. You cannot share an attorney with your husband.

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Your lawyer is trying to help the OW. You need someone else.

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Thank you for the reality check apples123. I will abandon that idea then!


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Sigh. I am worried that being a truthful and non-manipulative person is a real disadvantage in this situation.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Since this lawyer disclosed your husbands strategy to you, you can be sure he will also talk to your husband about your strategy. OW will also be updated.

Look for another lawyer, who will help you with your strategy and is not acting in the best interest of OW.

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Here in the states - and in most other countries - it is a conflict of interest for one attorney to represent both parties unless the parties waive the conflict. I would have a serious time ever waiving a conflict of interest or advising a client to do so.

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Thank you Goody2Shoes and BritsBrat. I have now sought recommendations for attorneys based in the neighbouring country, where I work and have dual citizenship, from a lawyer colleague of mine. I will call them in the morning. I am feeling increasingly vulnerable in this environment because I am so foreign and have a different cultural background.

I am european and my husband is African, and we live in Africa. There is a cultural approach to sorting out marriage problems here whereby the first question anyone asks the wife when she raises an issue is: "Have you discussed this with your husband? What does he say?" Even the police asked me what my husband said, and whether he knew I was at the police station, before they would agree to open a case file about the threats. Everyone I come across wants to help a married couple sit down together and (in my interpretation - as a very foreign person) persuade the wife to accept whatever her husband has done and bring back peace to the family home without asking any change at all from the man (apart from the most superficial of apologies).



BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Booked appointment to meet a new lawyer for Monday. Feeling a lot better now. Thanks for putting me straight everyone! Your advice is so valuable. At least I can get him to advise on some of the complicated international aspects of this mess and protect myself and the kids just in case.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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WH has been calling my nanny asking to speak to the kids before school and before bed. I feel like he is trying to break into my plan B and insert himself into our family life, so I don't feel comfortable with him calling to speak to them at all. However, I also don't want to put my nanny in an awkward situation of having to be a gate keeper or fight my battles for me - because that is not fair to her at all.

I could ask my IM to refer him back to the Plan B letter, in which I had stated that he would see the kids once a week on saturdays at a place and time arranged through our nanny, and that this calling is not acceptable. Would that be reasonable? I'd be grateful for advice.



BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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I'm having sudden floods of realisations about suspicious incidents happening so often over the past 3 years. But I guess with the four pregnancies (three miscarriages) and the adoption of my husband's OC from another affair all happening since the beginning of 2014, I was just too occupied with other traumas to see it.

Maybe I couldn't have done anything about it even if I had had proof. Ironically, I feel in the strongest position with regards to our relationship that I have ever been in. Despite the fact he has been cheating the entire time, by bringing the OC to live with us, and working hard to create a happy and loving family environment, we have a much happier and stable home than we have ever had before. And the loss of it through Plan B is really hitting my husband hard. I just can't understand how we could have built something in the midst of him cheating all the time. It doesn't make any sense.

I understand that when this affair started, we were at a real low point - as a result of the combined traumas of all his past cheating, and the unresolved issue of the OC. But since then things have got so much better. Bringing OC to live with us has been a real success. He is happy, healthy, emotional secure and really loves the family. I just can't believe that all the time we were dealing with that situation, my husband has also been establishing a relationship with someone else. So he has built two parallel relationships? I am now worrying if the OW's child is his too.

Now my husband has accepted this job in another country that will take him away from OW. And all the plans were for us to move there as a family. But I have put a stop to all that. I hope I did the right thing.

The police just called me following up on the case I opened against OW because of her threatening me and accosting me in the mall car park.




BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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I think the reason I have been absorbed with these thoughts is that there was a hole in my Plan B. I have an old email address that autoforwards to my new one. My husband broke into it and changed all the security info so now I can't get back into it. But it still autoforwards to my new account. So he sent an email to that account yesterday and it then got autoforwarded to my new account, by passing my blocking of his address.

I have now added this old email address of mine onto the blocked senders list and I hope that will prevent any future messages getting through from him.

It is amazing how much a couple of lines on an email really messes with your head.

Checked the age of OW's daughter and it definitely can't be his. She was born a year before we first moved here (and neither of us had ever been to this country before). I know it doesn't really matter, given all the terrible stuff he has done, but having been through the indescribable pain of finding out another woman is pregnant by my H before, it is the thing I am most terrified of.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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What Plan B things are you doing for yourself elf? What self-care are you doing? You're doing great and I wouldn't worry about all the times he has cheated before, just know that most likely he has always had a SSL.

Now is your time to think of you and your children.


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Hi Brain Hurts,

Thanks for the support. I have having a bit of a tough time focusing on self-care because of having to spend a lot of time at the police station. They told me this morning they are going to arrest the OW and take her to court on Monday. There are witnesses to what happened who corroborate my story. But the whole thing is making me extremely anxious and stressed. I am worried they will put me in front of her in court or something. My husband is away at a conference, coming back this weekend. I have no idea if he knows what is going on since I am having no communication with him.

I feel that I have done the right thing in reporting her to the police since she threatened me in a public place and has made me feel unsafe going about with my children in my home. But i have never had any dealings with police or courts before and it is a very scary process. I am also having to fight with myself to not drop the charges because I am a nice person and I don't have any desire to hurt or punish people just for the fun of it - however, I understand that she did something to me that has made me feel unsafe, so my action is justified.

You are absolutely right that he has always had a secret second life. Actually, he has got a lot better over the years though. I would say becoming married has been a long slow process of realisation for him.....lasting a decade so far.....and he still doesn't seem to get that married = one woman for life.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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From reading so many other threads, I think betrayed spouses really commonly have this same dilemma that I feel now: you don't want to do something that your WH might never forgive you for, so you are reticent about being really strong in the interventions to break up the affair. But while we, as the faithful partner, feel that conscience kick in to stop us doing hurtful things, we must remember that our partners and their OWs didn't consider us for one second when they were causing all these messes.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Hi Brain Hurts,

Thanks for the support. I have having a bit of a tough time focusing on self-care because of having to spend a lot of time at the police station. They told me this morning they are going to arrest the OW and take her to court on Monday. There are witnesses to what happened who corroborate my story. But the whole thing is making me extremely anxious and stressed. I am worried they will put me in front of her in court or something. My husband is away at a conference, coming back this weekend. I have no idea if he knows what is going on since I am having no communication with him.

I feel that I have done the right thing in reporting her to the police since she threatened me in a public place and has made me feel unsafe going about with my children in my home. But i have never had any dealings with police or courts before and it is a very scary process. I am also having to fight with myself to not drop the charges because I am a nice person and I don't have any desire to hurt or punish people just for the fun of it - however, I understand that she did something to me that has made me feel unsafe, so my action is justified.

You are absolutely right that he has always had a secret second life. Actually, he has got a lot better over the years though. I would say becoming married has been a long slow process of realisation for him.....lasting a decade so far.....and he still doesn't seem to get that married = one woman for life.
Yes you did the right thing and don't back down. I'm so Glad the police are taking this seriously. Did they tell you what to expect at court? Will the witnesses be there? Remember she is the one who threatened you. You didn't do anything wrong. Stay strong, my Friend.


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Thank you. They just told me to turn up at 8am on Monday. But I have got in touch with another local lawyer, just to give me some advice about what is likely to happen. I don't know if I will have to testify or anything. They have also called the security guard witness to be at court at 8. He was kind enough to call and let me know.

I am just getting so much disapproval from so many people. As if I am the problem here. It is like exposure all over again. But I guess there is no way OW will want to come anywhere near my family after this (well, a normal, right thinking person would keep as far away as possible), so I will focus on the positive.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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My husband flew back from his conference yesterday and broke into the house by climbing over the 8 ft high gate. He then strode into the house with a smirk. I think he thinks Plan B is a game.

He spent a couple of hours with the kids, which made them really happy because they have been praying every day for him to come home. He is a great father.

I tried to stay in the bedroom to start with, but then I decided to just ask him whether he had decided to end his affair yet so that he could come home.

He came out with a load of fogbabble. There wasn't any affair, I have blown it out of all proportion in my mind. He has cut contact just can't demonstrate it in the way I want. He has always wanted to come home, but my requests for no travelling and leaving his job were unreasonable, etc etc. He then asked me to stop the police action against OW, added some gaslighting about how I am lowering myself by interacting with these police here and making myself look vindictive, failing to understand that showing me that he had obviously been speaking to her about it undermines his previous claims that they are not speaking.

He asked for a specific list of things I am expecting him to do in order for us to be able to move forward. I have sent him the ending an affair checklist numerous times, but I again said: 1) end your affair; 2) put in place extraordinary precautions to ensure that it is IMPOSSIBLE for you and OW to contact each other again; 3) be honest about everything that has happened (to be confirmed by polygraph); 4) financial and technical accountability. He says he is doing all these things. I said but you have not actually DONE anything. Saying you are doing it is not the same as actually doing it. He then went into these blah blah blahs about how can I demonstrate I am doing things if you don't even let me call or email you, etc etc.

He then tried to manufacture a moral high ground for himself by saying he desperately wants to sort out our problems by getting a third party to mediate between us, and then telling me I am the problem because I am refusing to talk to the lawyer. "She is a woman. She can advise us. What problems cannot be solved by talking?". He then did a bit of stomping around saying I am the one who doesn't want our marriage to work. I am just building a case against him so that I can leave. (I always find it funny when he says this: he got another woman pregnant and has been cheating on me for 10 years. Why would i need to "build a case" against him in order to justify leaving?!) I said I will not talk to anyone while his affair is still ongoing. Doing all the things on the list above - and more - is a prerequisite for any kind of discussion about a future for us, if there is one.

He was trying his best to get me to commit to allowing him back in the house when he returns from his final work trip next week. I refused to commit to anything without a demonstration that he is actually serious about saving our marriage. He does not seem at all serious at the moment. Or at least he still thinks that he can manipulate his way out of the situation without having to actually implement any real change at all.

He kept on saying that when he comes back from travelling he will come and sit in the house until he is due to leave the country for his new job at the end of April. He says he will give me his phones, so that I see absolutely all communication. He will give me all his passwords to everything, etc. And he will submit to the polygraph. But the problem is, my eyes are open now. He is very good at agreeing to do things at some indeterminate point in the future because he is totally confident that he will be able to manipulate his way out of ACTUALLY doing the thing when push comes to shove. He used to always tell me "you can look at my phones whenever you want" and made sure I knew his passwords to give me a sense of security. However, at the point when a suspicious message would arrive, and I would make the request to see it, he would be holding the phone above his head with one hand (he is taller and much stronger than me) rapidly deleting stuff with one hand while holding me off with the other, all the while saying "you can have the phone, I am giving it to you, I am just waiting for you to calm down".

The only positive aspect of the whole incident was that he left at 7pm without a fight and went to stay at his friend's house. He is leaving for another week-long work trip today, so at least he will not be in court this morning.

I am really starting to see how manipulative and controlling my husband is - and how totally confident he is that he will win any battle of wills. Oh well, on with Plan B.

I just have one question about fogbabble. Can the fog be a sign of wanting to protect his SSL just as much as it is a sign of continued addition to the OW? I get the feeling that there is no great love here (apart from his evident love for himself) but that his manipulation and attempts at control are more about guarding his potential for having affairs whenever he wants rather than protecting this specific one. He is leaving the country for good in a month and a half. And I really think he will not look back after that point. But wants to make sure that in the new country he has the same freedom he has always enjoyed.



BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Is it actually possible to ensure no contact with smartphones, apps, and all manner of ways to contact people through the internet?! Just saw a notice on whatsapp saying that now you can send messages that will automatically delete themselves after 24 hours - and felt really depressed. The world we live in today seems to be actively promoting SSLs for everyone.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Change the locks so he can't get in the house.

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Thanks Brits Brat. I did change the locks already. It was 4pm in the afternoon and we live in a house that has a compound - so it is surrounded by a wall with a large motorised gate. He managed to scale the 8ft gate, which has spikes on top of it, to get into the compound. The kids were playing outside and our doors were open since it was the afternoon. That is how he managed to walk right into the house. I will ask the landlord to put additional barbed wire on top of the gate.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
He is a great father.
A great father doesn't have multiple affairs. A great father doesn't hurt the mother of his children.

He is a lousy father.

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Thank you Goody2Shoes. It is good to have things put in perspective. You are right.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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I spent 2 hours at the police station this morning. It turns out my new lawyer (a friend of a friend) is the former Director of Public Prosecutions so she helped enormously. The OW turned up without any legal counsel and with a stinky attitude. My lawyer had told the investigating officer in advance that we did not wish for her to have a criminal record, so she received a formal warning to stay away from our family - although if there is even the hint of anything happening again she will be in court straight away. The police implied that she has been in trouble before (One of them said "what has she done NOW?"). I am so angry at my WH for bringing this person into our lives.

I was worried my husband would mysteriously appear. But he didn't. Phew.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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It has just been confirmed to me that my husband and OW are still obviously in daily contact. WH called our nanny to ask who was the lady I was with this morning (my lawyer). I know he was not around to see me himself, so the only person that could have told him that I was with a lady was OW, who saw me at the police station.

Was I naive to think that the nuclear exposure, employment scrutiny, legal action against OW and throwing WH out would have ended the affair? Maybe the fact that he has been travelling for the past 3 weeks has insulated him from the effects of not living at home. Maybe the legal action against OW has given them a reason to keep talking. Or maybe because they know he is leaving the country for good in 6 weeks anyway, they see no reason to stop now.

I just don't know what to think now. If he is moving to another country at the end of April, and I am planning to take the kids to another (different) country in June, what hope could there ever be that we would manage to sort this out? Even if the affair dies a natural death in the few months after he moves, he will probably just start a new one in his new location. I'm starting to think there is no solution at all.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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He has lived a SSL for so Long he is obviously still thinking he can gaslight you. You need to get into a dark Plan B to protect yourself. Can you make sure the doors are locked at all times?

And yes it's obvious he is still in contact with the OW. He hasn't ended his affair. And I'm sorry to say he is probably already looking for the next OW. He is a serial Cheater with a traveling job and has many, many opportunities for a SSL.

Protect yourself.


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Thank you BrainHurts. Our landlord is installing more barbed wire on top of the gate tomorrow morning. And yes we will try to keep the doors locked from now on.

It is really depressing to go through this sudden realisation that I am married to such a deceitful and selfish person. I have loved him so much for so long. But it is better to have my eyes open than be blind.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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What about getting a guard goose? Better than a dog.

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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
It has just been confirmed to me that my husband and OW are still obviously in daily contact. WH called our nanny to ask who was the lady I was with this morning (my lawyer). I know he was not around to see me himself, so the only person that could have told him that I was with a lady was OW, who saw me at the police station.
Don't share personal or legal info with your nanny. Instruct her not to answer those questions. If you don't give her this info, she can tell him she doesn't know.
Quote
Was I naive to think that the nuclear exposure, employment scrutiny, legal action against OW and throwing WH out would have ended the affair? Maybe the fact that he has been travelling for the past 3 weeks has insulated him from the effects of not living at home. Maybe the legal action against OW has given them a reason to keep talking. Or maybe because they know he is leaving the country for good in 6 weeks anyway, they see no reason to stop now.
Exposure speeds up what would happen anyway. If the affair would die, it now dies sooner because of the turmoil. If he repents and wants to recover the marriage, you will have suffered less then if you didn't expose. You won't be the wreck you would be if this abuse would have gone on for longer.
Now work on your personal recovery. If at any moment he truly repents, you will still have the strength you need for recovery of your marriage. If he doesn't repent, you will be better of without him.
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I just don't know what to think now. If he is moving to another country at the end of April, and I am planning to take the kids to another (different) country in June, what hope could there ever be that we would manage to sort this out? Even if the affair dies a natural death in the few months after he moves, he will probably just start a new one in his new location. I'm starting to think there is no solution at all.
Could you be married to a man who has affairs? If he refuses exclusivity in your marriage, you don't stand a chance anyway.

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Thank you Goody2Shoes. I really appreciate how you get me to put things in perspective. You are right. I have done everything I could reasonably have done and will just focus on myself and the kids.

I have an appointment with an international marriage/divorce lawyer on Friday and was thinking of asking him to draft a formal separation letter that specifies how much money my husband should be sending to me for maintenance of four children and spousal support. However, I am wondering about the enforcement of financial agreements across borders - and I was thinking that it might be sensible to inform his employer of his financial obligation, since he works for an international organisation and they sometimes have rules about staff being in good financial standing with no judgements against them. Do any of the lawyers here, perhaps Brits Brat, have any advice in that respect?

Last edited by chalkncheese; 03/14/17 07:25 AM. Reason: Typo

BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Without knowing the countries or the employer involved I couldn't give you any suggestions. Also, since I'm not licensed in those countries, I certainly wouldn't be authorized to provide legal advice.

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Thank you for the reply BritsBrat. I will see what the lawyer has to say.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Just an update since I haven't posted in a few days. On Friday last week, I travelled to see a lawyer in the neighbouring country where I plan to move with the kids at the end of their school year in June. He was very helpful in laying out my options and rights, despite the international dimensions of our problems.

There is no such thing as a formal separation here, but there is the possibility of applying for a maintenance order if WH starts to become financially unreliable.

The lawyer also suggested that if I am focused on reconciliation he could write me a letter laying out the extremely high costs of all aspects of an international divorce, which I could then share with WH if he starts talking about D (but not before). I am glad to have the facts now, but not sure whether it is advisable/desirable/strategic to attempt to scare WH away from divorce? Any advice appreciated.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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WH travelled to his home country, where his new job is also based, on Monday last week to do some recruitment of new staff. I took the opportunity to do some additional exposure with his extended family in that country because I knew he would be meeting them. Although afterwards I hit a real low point because I feel that I have got to the end of the active interventions I can make. It is now just a question of focusing on Plan B, the kids and self-care - but I am trying to do that while sitting in a country and town where i am surrounded by terrible memories and triggers everywhere. Can't wait until June when I can move the kids away from this place and we can start work on a new life for all of us. It is going to be a tough few months.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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I've been reading a lot of old threads to give me strength for my Plan B and I noticed that IndieGirl was advised to send a couple of love notes/memories of good times to her WH during plan B. Is that something that the forum still advises?

Since I didn't really do a plan A (well, one weekend), because WH refused to finish his affair after exposure and was quite aggressive, I wonder whether it might help remind him of what we have built together.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I've been reading a lot of old threads to give me strength for my Plan B and I noticed that IndieGirl was advised to send a couple of love notes/memories of good times to her WH during plan B. Is that something that the forum still advises?

Since I didn't really do a plan A (well, one weekend), because WH refused to finish his affair after exposure and was quite aggressive, I wonder whether it might help remind him of what we have built together.

I would not advise that in your situation. Primarily because your WH is a serial cheater who has probably been cheating for the entire length of your marriage. He has an entire SSL on the side and does not seem to be at all interested in ending it any time soon. His long term serial cheating is a far greater hurdle to overcome, and as it stands right now, I do not have much hope for your marriage. I know you do not want to divorce, and that is your choice, but I do not see a couple love notes or Plan B doing anything to get your WH to change his lifestyle.

In Indie's case, her husband was not a serial cheater. He had a garden variety affair with a mutual friend.

Even with that in mind, I do not remember Indie being advised this and have not seen any other person in Plan B advised to break their no contact. The advise in Plan B is to have NO contact to protect yourself, and if you are sending notes to the wayward this completely contradicts this.

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Thanks a lot Unwritten. Yeah, I am also not exactly hopeful....I guess it just takes some time to adjust to thinking that we probably won't be together in the future.



BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Thanks a lot Unwritten. Yeah, I am also not exactly hopeful....I guess it just takes some time to adjust to thinking that we probably won't be together in the future.

Of course it does! You have done so well in the short time you've been here. Just continue to protect yourself in a tight Plan B. You will feel better once you have no more contact with WH and are not hearing about his every move.

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Thank you. I already do feel a lot better - NC is very therapeutic! And I can really see how important it is for the kids. We have our calm normal family routines and that helps us all deal with the huge changes.

I am not really hearing from him - it's just we are in a bit of limbo since he has been travelling for three weeks on three separate trips (pretty much since the start of plan B) and is due to arrive back tomorrow, so I am apprehensive about what might happen and how things will change with him in the country rather than occupied elsewhere. Last week he had a day between coming back and leaving again, and used that time to break into the house pretending everything was normal.

He called our nanny a couple of days ago asking to speak to the kids just before dinner, but I asked her to tell him no. I don't mind him seeing them when he is in the country but only outside the house where he can't attempt to disrupt the calm we have worked hard to establish without him. I feel that even phone calls from him will have a destabilising effect on our home so I prefer if he just keeps away. I guess when he moves to his new job in his home country we will have to work out a regular skype call time for the kid's sake. But for now, I think it is OK to refuse impromptu calls. He's the one that refused to cancel his trips when I asked, after all.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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As long as your nanny tells you he calls, your plan B isn't watertight.

Can you give her instructions not to tell you if he calls? And give her clear instructions to be a firewall and not give him any info that isn't relevant.

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I am no expert on international divorce. I do know something about international marriages, but not in your country. Get educated on custody rights in your situation. It might be important to file for divorce in the "right" country. Since you have options, understand what the pro's and cons are when you file for divorce in every possible country.

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Yes you should seek out a lawyer that is specialized in international fivorce. Since you and your husband are from the same country, it depends on where you married an sometimes on where you live and how long you have lived there to even know which country's divorce laws apply to your marriage. It may have been set in the marriage contract.
You cannot be sure that a regular local lawyer knows that. In some cases (mine) if I start living in another country, after half a year, laws of the country of residence would apply.
You have to consult with an international lawyer and not waste time with incompetent lawyers who tell you how to save your marriage according to their cultural beliefs.


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Originally Posted by goody2shoes
As long as your nanny tells you he calls, your plan B isn't watertight.

Can you give her instructions not to tell you if he calls? And give her clear instructions to be a firewall and not give him any info that isn't relevant.

Thank you Goody2Shoes. I hadn't thought of that actually. I will tell her not to tell me from now on - especially now that we have worked out the main logistics of when and how visits with the kids will be arranged.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Thank you Goody2Shoes and Happy Heart. The lawyer I saw on Friday is an international divorce lawyer and he was extremely helpful. He was even able to advise on the enforcement of financial obligations across borders. My H and I are from different countries (from each other), we live in a third, and we will soon be moving in June - me to the neighbouring country and he to his home country. He advised that it is best to wait until I am resident in the neighbouring country before doing anything formal because the law there is extremely protective of women and children and there are numerous avenues available for ensuring compliance with financial obligations, even across borders. So while I am quite a weak position where I am currently, I am hopeful that the situation will be a lot better come June.



BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Is there anyway you could move to your neighbouring country sooner than June?


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Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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You don't know if he might do something adversary before that time.

Last edited by happyheart; 03/21/17 02:08 PM.

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Thank you BrainHurts and Happy Heart. I had previously ruled out moving before June because the children's school term finishes on June 15 and they would be really upset to leave their friends. But given that being here is causing me a lot of stress, I will reconsider that decision and see if I can get them into a new school in the neighbouring country before the end of the school year.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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I've just received a very comprehensive legal opinion from the lawyer I went to see last week. It lays out all the relevant legislation and discuss all issues related to children, finances, court jurisdiction, and the likely cost of divorce proceedings (including the costs of comparative assessment of the two countries matrimonial property laws). It makes pretty scary reading for someone contemplating divorce. My question is, should I share this opinion with WH or not? I am not sure whether it is a good move strategically.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Considering his actions, I would not share any of this info with him. Don't show your cards.

Move as soon as possible to the country where you have the advantage, file for divorce under the best circumstances for you. Moving will also help you avoid triggers and plan B will be much easier.

If you want to reconcile, it will have to be on your terms (and only if he is truly repentant, hat in hand!). But to be honest, after all you've told us about him, I doubt he is willing to step up and implement extraordinary precautions.

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No! If you do, that may be construed as breaching the attorney client privilege and then your WH may be allowed access to more than just this about your case attorney's file. Different countries have different laws in this regard. Ask the attorney before giving him any communications between you and the attorney.

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Thank you Goody2Shoes and Brits Brat. I will keep it to myself then. I am really looking forward to being able to move and to have the security of legal protection.

Yes, I have done a LOT of reading about EPs and I really don't see that there would be any way for us to move forward unless we were joined at the hip. I would have to literally have a desk in the same office as him, sit in on all his meetings and keep his (non-smart!) phone in front of me all the time in order to feel any sense of security in this relationship. And that's in addition to spending all our non-working hours together. I wouldn't say the chances of that happening are absolute zero (i'm a pretty useful person to have around from a work perspective), but pretty close....



BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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I think he believes this is all a power game at the moment (I guess it is actually). When we had our plan A weekend, he did agree for me to hold his phones the entire time, taking them into the bathroom with me, so that he wouldn't be alone with them - so there was a glimpse of understanding of what it would take for me to feel secure. We ended up having a really nice time. But that was just for one weekend - and it took me being extremely forceful about refusing to leave the house unless his phones were already in my handbag for that to happen. And I can't live my life having to impose things on him like that. It is exhausting.

I think he is still 100% sure that he will be able to manipulate his way back to having his cake and eating it. I don't think the idea that he might not "win" in this situation has crossed his mind at all. I feel like I am battling not only the typical wayward fog, but also the caveman fog, the god-complex fog, etc. However, I suspect that when he moves to his new job and finds himself sleeping on his cousin's couch at age 40, while his wife and children start a new life in another country and he has to deal with questions from everyone about where we are, his might start to introspect a little bit.

Although in my heart of hearts, what I really think will happen is that he go on a womanising binge over the next 6 months or so (just because he thinks he CAN), block out any thoughts that he could possibly have been at fault, then get some 22 year old pregnant and have a nervous breakdown about what he has done with his life.....that might be the rock bottom that would cause him to really turn around. But after having been through the OC thing already, I don't think I would be willing to deal with that nightmare a second time.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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You sound like an incredibly strong person. At some point WH is going to realise that you are his rock and that he has lost the most important thing he ever had. Unfortunately that moment of realisation is going to come to him only after you have gone for ever. Until then he will think he can play you.

A 6 month binge sounds pretty familiar too.


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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I think he believes this is all a power game at the moment (I guess it is actually). When we had our plan A weekend, he did agree for me to hold his phones the entire time, taking them into the bathroom with me, so that he wouldn't be alone with them - so there was a glimpse of understanding of what it would take for me to feel secure. We ended up having a really nice time. But that was just for one weekend - and it took me being extremely forceful about refusing to leave the house unless his phones were already in my handbag for that to happen. And I can't live my life having to impose things on him like that. It is exhausting.

There have been couples who have done this, lived a life of extra extraordinary precautions due to serial cheating, in order for their marriage to survive. So it can be done, IF the serial cheater is 110% on board which yours is not and probably never will be. However, I also can personally not imagine living life this.

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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I think he is still 100% sure that he will be able to manipulate his way back to having his cake and eating it. I don't think the idea that he might not "win" in this situation has crossed his mind at all. I feel like I am battling not only the typical wayward fog, but also the caveman fog, the god-complex fog, etc. However, I suspect that when he moves to his new job and finds himself sleeping on his cousin's couch at age 40, while his wife and children start a new life in another country and he has to deal with questions from everyone about where we are, his might start to introspect a little bit.

Although in my heart of hearts, what I really think will happen is that he go on a womanising binge over the next 6 months or so (just because he thinks he CAN), block out any thoughts that he could possibly have been at fault, then get some 22 year old pregnant and have a nervous breakdown about what he has done with his life.....that might be the rock bottom that would cause him to really turn around. But after having been through the OC thing already, I don't think I would be willing to deal with that nightmare a second time.

Speculating as to what he is or is not thinking now or in the future, or speculating over what might or might not make him hit rock bottom and come to his senses, is really not good for you. In Plan B you should not be concerned about his thoughts or whether he is hitting rock bottom or not.

The reality is that he has lived an entire life of brazen infidelity (even an OC with multiple affairs after that). His family seems to think he is entitled to that lifestyle. I really don't see anything making him hit rock bottom. The wayward mentality is so ingrained in him, and he seems to feel completely entitled to live as he has been, I don't see there being some kind of wake up call from that. Be prepared mentally and operate as if he will NEVER hit rock bottom or take responsibility for his lifestyle or regret his decisions or even regret losing you.

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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Since I didn't really do a plan A (well, one weekend), because WH refused to finish his affair after exposure and was quite aggressive, I wonder whether it might help remind him of what we
have built together.

I've been trying to read through your thread today, so if this was addressed later, sorry to be covering it again.

A "stellar" Plan A does not help in the case of a serial cheater. A serial cheater does not cheat because of unmet needs or a bad marriage.

They cheat because they like to get their ENs met outside of the marriage (often by many people) and they do not care that it hurts their BS.

When I learned of my WxH's first affair/s, we came to MB and recovered (really, a false recovery) but we went through the online program and our M was probably the best it had been besides the honeymoon period. Yet he cheated, again. Dr Harley told me that he had read through our questionnaires, etc, and my WxH had no complaints about our M and his ENs were being met.

So please do not beat yourself up that you could have done x, y or z to change this situation. The only thing that could have helped was if your WH had zero opportunity to lead a SSL and interact with women, basically.

I'm sure I will have more to add...

Last edited by SusieQ; 03/23/17 07:59 PM.

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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
He called our nanny a couple of days ago asking to speak to the kids just before dinner, but I asked her to tell him no. I don't mind him seeing them when he is in the country but only outside the house where he can't attempt to disrupt the calm we have worked hard to establish without him.

It might be wise to allow him a window of time to speak to the kids every day. It would be a good question for your lawyer. Here in the US, parents are basically discouraged from blocking access to the kids via phone calls/texting etc.


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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
My question is, should I share this opinion with WH or not?

You realize that you would not be communicating anything to your WH besides issues related to visitation or finances that are absolutely unavoidable?

For instance, if he was to break into the house again and start yelling at you about the OW, do not discuss her, the D, EPs or anything like that with him anymore. Go to your bedroom and shut the door. In fact since we are discussing it, do you have a plan for what you will do if he breaks in again? Are the locks changed?



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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I think he believes this is all a power game at the moment (I guess it is actually). When we had our plan A weekend, he did agree for me to hold his phones the entire time, taking them into the bathroom with me, so that he wouldn't be alone with them - so there was a glimpse of understanding of what it would take for me to feel secure. We ended up having a really nice time. But that was just for one weekend - and it took me being extremely forceful about refusing to leave the house unless his phones were already in my handbag for that to happen. And I can't live my life having to impose things on him like that. It is exhausting.

I don't think there is a power trip happening. He is incredibly entitled, with a wayward mentality that is so deeply entrenched because he has gotten away with it for so long that it is going to be hard to turn this around, chalkncheese.

Did anybody link the serial cheater threads for you? I can't remember.

I ask because I'm not getting the sense that you realize how much of an uphill battle recovering with this type of cheater will be. Even if he realizes that he wants you and his family more than his SSL and promises everything under the sun to make you happy, serial cheats are notorious for backsliding into bad habits (SSL, IB, flirting, etc) over time.

He would have to agree to a job where he is basically at home working with you and has no opportunity for a SSL or affair to exist...you spend all of your free time together, he does not so much as run errands without you, etc. That's what recovery for you will come down to.



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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
However, I suspect that when he moves to his new job and finds himself sleeping on his cousin's couch at age 40, while his wife and children start a new life in another country and he has to deal with questions from everyone about where we are, his might start to introspect a little bit.

My WxH was on his parents' couch and basically devastated and told my IM that it was "killing him" to not be able to speak to me. A few weeks later he had moved on to OW4 and with a very short time after that, moved in with her.

So...I would not hold out too much hope that this will help your situation. With a first-time cheater, yes. Serial cheater who has never not cheated, no.



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Given your WH's history of cheating the entire marriage and having an enabling family who is basically attacking you (this was my WxH as well), I have to tell you...I think divorce and personal recovery would be the definition of success for this situation.

Not every marriage is meant to be saved.

I'm sorry frown




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As SusieQ recommended Serial Cheaters

There are some radio clips at the end of the thread.


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Originally Posted by living_well
You sound like an incredibly strong person. At some point WH is going to realise that you are his rock and that he has lost the most important thing he ever had. Unfortunately that moment of realisation is going to come to him only after you have gone for ever. Until then he will think he can play you.

A 6 month binge sounds pretty familiar too.

Thanks Living Well. I guess that is one of the few things (strength) I can thank WH for!! Along with the beautiful kids.


BW (me) 40
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Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Speculating as to what he is or is not thinking now or in the future, or speculating over what might or might not make him hit rock bottom and come to his senses, is really not good for you. In Plan B you should not be concerned about his thoughts or whether he is hitting rock bottom or not.

Thank you for the reality check Unwritten. It is so good for me to hear this stuff so that my wishful thinking doesn't get the best of me.

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Be prepared mentally and operate as if he will NEVER hit rock bottom or take responsibility for his lifestyle or regret his decisions or even regret losing you.

I think I will print this sentence out and stick it to the wall behind my desk. It's hard to change a habit of loving someone for so long, but I really do understand that it is better for me and the kids to move on with a separate life.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 599
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My WxH was on his parents' couch and basically devastated and told my IM that it was "killing him" to not be able to speak to me. A few weeks later he had moved on to OW4 and with a very short time after that, moved in with her.

Thank you for your valuable input SusieQ. I have actually been reading your recovery thread and I wondered what happened because I could see that there were some parallels with my WH. I saw that your signature says divorced but the recovery thread stopped some way before that point.

I guess I should just be thankful that this has all come to a head at a time when we can quite easily move to different countries and I have a good job so can support myself and the kids with no trouble. The really big worry for me about the future (pre-crisis) was that in order to move with my husband to his new job I would have had to give up my job, and that would have left me in a really vulnerable position with no independent income in a foreign country where I don't speak the language that well, surrounded by people who share my husband's sense of entitlement to philandering. To be honest, it is a bit of a relief to feel like there is a different future to look forward to now.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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