I�m new here and I really need help. Sorry this is long but I will try to make it all relevant!

My husband and I are 49 years old, have been married 25 years, and have one daughter who is 16. Seven years ago I discovered he was having an EA with a coworker. He ended it but of course not Harley-style because I didn�t know about Harley or MB. It turned into a PA and I didn�t find out until five years ago when he had to tell me she was 8 months pregnant, it was over, that he had told her he would not leave the marriage, and she moved six hours away to raise the baby on her own (she�s divorced with one other small child) with his generous child support (my H is a high-income earner).

We had paternity testing and got a lawyer and got everything in place. I thought we would be okay. However, the affair never really ended. She came back to town often to see grandparents and my H had liasons with her. He used his work phone to text her or talk to her, so I could never see anything. I was hit with multiple d-days. We did marriage counseling and retreats, read a lot of books, I tried to be a better wife.

He said the primary reason he fell in love with her was because she fully accepted him and I did not. From the time we met at 20, he had a very high sex drive (1-2 times per day) and I could not meet that. He also desired a lot of kinky sex which I think is due to an addiction to pornography, and sex was rarely pleasurable for me because I never felt it was about being with ME as much as making a story for him to be aroused by. Lots of role play and story-telling. No kissing or tenderness. This crept into the marriage beginning in the first few years but by the time he met the OW (year 18), I was just doing �my duty� in the bedroom with little interest and he could tell. He felt unloved because I "didn�t accept him." So the OW�s attention made him feel special.

Last year, his love child turned 4 years old and he told me he was feeling very sad and guilty about NC because she was now forming memories and would be asking about who her father was. He told me he wanted to start a relationship with the OC by driving to the OW�s town regularly and I was NOT invited. I begged him for a way to have a relationship with the OC without �unchaperoned� contact with the OW but he didn�t want to upset the OW. I knew what that meant, so I kicked him out and filed for divorce.

Five days after he moved into an apartment, the OW told him she was in love with another man in her hometown and she wouldn�t be seeing my H anymore. They ended their relationship for good, as my H�s fog burst wide open and he realized he could be replaced�their love was not so special.

I was elated because I want to save my marriage so badly. The problem is, my H won�t come home. We have been separated 3 months. I agreed that he should stay for a while to grieve/withdraw from the affair, because I didn�t want to see him go through that. But it�s hard because he doesn�t act like he wants the marriage to be restored. He says he doesn�t love himself and he needs to learn to do that before he can love me again. He feels ashamed for the husband he was and what he did to me, the OW, and the children involved. (He had also pressured the OW to have an abortion and he doesn�t believe in that but he felt so scared back then, so it haunts him to this day that he almost had this little girl killed but that the OW �protected� her life.)

I discovered Harley two months ago and just finished Love Busters, HN/HN, and Surviving an Affair. I told my H that I would like to restore balances in both our love banks and I was going to be an amazing wife. But he is not sure he wants to try. I think he may have some clinical depression but he won�t seek help� (Also, he was abused by his father as a child and I think a lot of issues from that are making him have some kind of crisis in the wake of all this. He says he has to meditate and talk to his child self with comfort to feel okay each day. And he is downloading a lot of books on anxiety which is not typical of him.)

This weekend, he dropped a big bomb on me. He told me that he isn�t feeling anything for me because his number one emotional need, sexual fulfillment, is not being met (I have not been having sex with him during the separation, on the advice of our marriage counselor). So now I am thinking if I can just love bomb him with all his EN�s, especially the sex, affection, and admiration, maybe I can restore my marriage, even if he won�t say he wants to restore it. But this seems opposite to the Plan B plan, and I don�t know if I will just feel like a doormat (more than I already do) and build resentment. Plus I don't know if it's possible to replenish his love bank if we are separated, it will be twice as hard (he lives 30 minutes away from me now, in the city, and I still live in the 'burbs but work in the city). If it would work, I am willing to try, but I don't know if it would be counter-productive.

Please advise!!!

Welcome to MB.

He hasn't come back hat in hand, begging to be taken back, as Dr Harley recommends. Wives should not take their wayward husbands back unless they (spontaneously) beg to be taken back. He hasn't done this.

Let him be, and move on without him. No good can come from any more contact from you.

So you don't think he just needs more time to get through withdrawal?

He doesn't want a divorce, he says he just wants more time to work on himself. He says he can't come home and "act like everything is fine" because it's not: he is a mess. He needs time to meditate, pray, heal himself.

He is willing to give me the divorce and a generous settlement because of his guilt. I just don't know if it's time to take it.

Hi Grace, welcome to Marriage Builders. Sugarcane is right, this is not a good situation for you. Trying to meet his needs will make you LESS attractive, not more. The more you try to chase him, the less attractive you become and the more damage it will cause to your emotional and physical health. Dr. Harley would suggest you shut this down and go into a very dark Plan B. Are you familiar with Plan B?

He has been wayward for a very long time so this won't be easy to fix, but I would not even consider taking him back unless your marriage is 100% affair proofed and he stops all porn use. His desire for weird sex is from his porn use. Men who watch porn stop making love and use sex only to get off. They repel women with their kinky sex desires.

The reason you stopped desiring sex with him is because he was not meeting YOUR NEEDS and was a thoughtless sex partner:
He never made it pleasurable for you, which is how sexual aversions are created. Dr Harley would tell you to NEVER meet his need for sex in a way that is repellant to you because that is how aversions are created.

He just wants to keep you on the sidelines while he wastes time. I would strongly suggest you file for divorce to get legal protection and go into Plan B. He is not serious about your marriage.

You should jump all over that. Go into a dark Plan B and if he makes a RADICAL CHANGE in his approach to being a husband, you can reconsider. I doubt that will ever happen because he is not fighting for you.

I agree, go into Plan B.
How to Plan B Correctly

The Plan B is a little odd, because his affair is over. I am not sure what I am demanding except for him to come home. I already tried to threaten him that he needs to come home for our daughter's sake and he says he if I made him come home right now, we would not have a healthy marriage. He says he is sick and needs time to heal so he can come home for the right reasons and be a good partner.

I am also afraid to Plan B because it's going to make him angry (esp. changing the locks and packing up all his stuff), which threatens the good settlement. I am just trying to be friendly until I legally get what I need to feel secure.

I guess I could get the divorce and then Plan B fully.

Plan B is not about killing the affair, but about protecting you from abuse. This situation is not good for your health.

How long would it take to take care of the legal stuff?

Welcome to MB Grace.

You have been dealing with a very wayward man for a very long time. Not only through this ongoing affair, but also the pornography use. And he has been blaming you for all of it by saying you don't meet his needs. I can tell that has already damaged you mentally because you are shouldering the blame and 'trying to be a better wife' and you are also single handedly trying to fix a marriage that HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR BREAKING. You need to get far far away from this destructive situation so you can start to repair the damage he has caused you.

Understand this, you had nothing to do with him having an affair. You could have been the perfect wife, meeting his needs 100%, and he would still have had an affair. Affairs are caused by having poor boundaries around the opposite sex, NOT because your spouse is not meeting your needs. Many spouses do not meet each others needs but do not have affairs.

Plan B is to protect your mental and physical health from dealing with this wayward craziness, and you clearly need it. In Plan B you have no contact whatsoever with him or his OW or his crazy wayward lifestyle. You don't look at his FB, you don't let your friends talk about him in front of you, you don't even let yourself sit and ponder what he's doing at the moment. Can you do this? I can tell it has been a very long time since you have focused on your happiness instead of on him and what he is doing and how to single handedly get him to simply stay with you and have a marriage at all cost. You need to change this mentality and decide you matter too.

Oh poor WH

Can you see in this post that he has absolutely NO REGARD for you??? YOU are the victim here, not him. YOU are the one who has had to put up with his waywardness for years, and yet the focus is on how damaging this has been TO HIM.

Although MB is a 'marriage building' site, it does not by any means support 'marriage at all cost.' Just being married is not the goal. Just getting him to stay with you is not the goal. You cannot have a great marriage alone, and you cannot fix his wayward lifestyle or mentality, you cannot affair proof your marriage, alone. Until he comes to you *hat in hand* to beg your forgiveness and agree to do absolutely anything necessary to affair proof the marriage and make it better than it has ever been, you should not even consider going back to him.

Plan B.

Plan B is intended to protect the BS from the emotional fallout of an affair and/or the WS' refusal to work on recovery.

What is he "sick" with? Does he have cancer? If he has cancer, he would obviously want to be in his home working on his marriage. Or does he want to keep you on the sidelines while he pursues affairs and porn?



That's fine. Its ok if he is angry. But you should have nothing to do wth him. You have been unknowingly enabling him for a very long time, which has made you the most unattractive option to him. He has had no motivation or reason to stop his destructive behavior. Your approach has made the situation much worse.

I want to add that your husband has been wayward for so long that this is entrenched behavior. It will take ALOT to motivate him to change. More enabling and appeasing will not do the trick. It will just further erode your mental and physical health, making you even more unattractive.

Have you considered getting counseling for yourself to help you stand up for yourself? Your behavior is very dysfunctional. You seem to have no defense mechanisms much like a battered wife.

]
Are you able to discern when you are being manipulated? The above is a prime example of manipulation. This is like the rapist saying he has to "heal" from raping his victims.

MelodyLane, Unwritten, SugarCane, you are all right. He is emotionally and psychologically abusive. I guess I forgive him because he seems to be dealing with psychological turmoil and I have so much empathy (I never had to give up a biological child at birth, who I also had wished dead, so I try to think about this and what he must be dealing with).

Goody2shoes, I can have the legal stuff wrapped up pretty quickly, I think. We have a mediator and a settlement in draft. I filed last year so our waiting time is up and we can have a divorce anytime now.

Everytime I think of making it final, I get so sad. I am not strong and I don't know why.

MelodyLane, I have had lots of individual counseling, one with a psychologist and one with a Christian counselor. Neither has observed me as having no defense mechanisms like a battered wife, even though I have told them stories that to me seem psychologically/emotionally abusive. They both say that if I can endure the separation, maybe our marriage could come back on track, because my H is trying to be a better man. ?!?!

Just know that there is a huge difference between ENABLING and compassion. It is not compassionate to help someone engage in destructive behavior. That is all you have done here.

You have made alot of excuses for him and it has only made him WORSE. I realize you are a nice person, but misplaced compassion gives power to evil. Your "forgiveness" is inappropriate and destructive.


You will feel much stronger if you push this divorce through and go into Plan B. Staying in touch with this abusive, uncaring man has sapped your strength. But strength is a CHOICE and you can make the choice today to be strong and take action. You will never be strong as long as you make yourself available to be abused.

I am sorry to hear this, because it is very obvious to the outside observer that you have allowed yourself to be abused. This is one of the worst cases I have seen.

And how would they know if your "marriage could come back on track" if they don't know how to save marriages? Marriages don't resolve themselves by magic fairy dust. There has to be a plan.

My Christian counselor (a young pastor but super-smart and I do believe he is the better of my two therapists) is also counseling my H. He says my H has lost his way and become ego-centered but if he finds his way back to a God-centered life, we will meet there in our marriage and it will be fulfilling again. My H does admit he is ego-centered. He keeps saying things like, "I want to be God-centered but it's so hard to truly love Jesus, to love your enemy, give up all your possessions and humble yourself" etc. So maybe he is having a crisis of faith admist all of this. Or maybe it's just his manipulation of me.

That is cute, but talk is cheap. Talk that is not accompanied with action is meaningless. If your husband wanted to be a good husband, he could make that choice today. Waywards are just like alcoholics in that they talk alot, but never act on it. This is why you need to ignore his words and watch his actions. He has been destructive for YEARS and has no intention of changing that.

Your marriage will never become fulfilling without a plan. What you describe is not a plan. Hope is not a plan. This program, developed by a CHRISTIAN PSYCHOLOGIST, Dr Bill Harley, gives you a plan, but at the end of the day, if your husband does not CHOOSE to change his destructive behaviors, there will be no marriage. Jesus will not force anyone to act against his will.

Your husband is having a "crisis" of willful destructive behavior and that will not change until he chooses to change. Until that happens, you should not associate with works of darkness.

In short, what you need is a) your husband's willingness and b) a PLAN. You have neither. Until you have both, you should have nothing to do with him. Associating with him is a needless waste of your time and sanity.

If you would go into Plan B and get away from this situation, you would develop a sense of objectivity that would allow you to see your situation in a clear light. This has been going on so long that you have lost objectivity and are only harming yourself at this point.

Your husband has no motivation to change and there is nothing to you can do to effect that. The best you can do is remove yourself from this sick, toxic situation.

He is trying to manipulate everybody.

There are so many things wrong with this guy that it is hard to believe any of it. He can not even define a "crisis of faith" that is self-consistent enough to be believable.

Plan B is the answer. Stop involving yourself in the drama. Get away and you will see it all clearly for what it really is.

Thanks for your insight, mrEureka.

Is there nobody who thinks my H is just still in withdrawal and can't imagine a life with me because he felt his needs weren't met back when the affair started, and doesn't know if they will be met now? We made a lot of mistakes along the way of this multi-year affair (because I didn't know about Harley) and I did a lot of Love Busters, mostly angry outbursts and disrespectful judgments of him.

Am I not seeing clearly that this is something Harley would describe typical of a WH after getting dumped by his lover? Withdrawal? (My H did say being with the OW was like heroin to him)

What Dr Harley would advise is that you go into Plan B.


We are not concerned with you meeting his needs, which you should not be doing, but rather with him meeting your needs. He has done an extremely poor job of meeting your needs for years, which is what led to your sexual aversion. Since he is not willing to meet your needs, Plan B is the answer. You should not attempt to try and meet his needs until he makes a radical change in his approach to being a husband. So far he has miserably failed.

Is he still seeing the OW and the child?

Let yourself feel sad and weak, and do it anyhow. And quick, before he changes his mind regarding any financial generosity. If the two of you are "meant to be" you can always re-marry in the future.

No, he is not currently seeing them. He has not seen the OW since she came to town and dumped him three months ago (and before that, it was 2 years since he had seen her..we were in an actual attempt at reconciliation, until she blew up his phone with love texts and he caved). He has not seen the OC for 2 years.

Has has no rights to visitation with the OC--it's what he wanted when the OC was born because (1) he promised it to the OW since he didn't leave the marriage and that's what she wanted, and (2) he thought it would be impossible to recover our marriage, especially with the OC six hours drive away.

I know Harley would say no contact with OC for 21 years. I think my H would have a hard time with that.

Yes I know, we can always remarry in the future. Thanks for the encouragement. Yes, I can do it even if I feel sad and weak. I get a panicky feeling but I need to tolerate that.

Basically you do not know if he is seeing OW or not. He is not living with you and there is no way for you to know if the affair is over. There is also no way for you to know what other secrets he has, other affairs or lovers, or single type behaviors. His wayward mindset is so ingrained, he has not acted like a faithful or married man for so many years, it is likely that he has a complete SSL that you do not know about.

The affair being over means that he has absolutely no contact whatsoever with the OW. This has never happened, he has never blocked all contact with her in all these years. Even if they had lulls in the affair, they were still always in contact or had access to contact. So he has been wayward for many years.

You need to stop thinking about how to make this right for HIM and start thinking about how to make this right for YOU.

You would have a very hard time with that, because you would be perpetually triggered. If he truly is not seeing the OW, which I doubt, I would suspect he is still chasing her trying to get her back.

Why did they break up? Do you know?

UW is right, he is doing something which is why he has no interest whatsoever in the marriage.

Things were never good after she announced the pregnancy. I think she felt betrayed because of all his promises that he would leave the marriage and he didn't, even with her "surprise" pregnancy. I think he knew she manipulated him. He also said he loved me and our daughter and didn't want to leave. In retrospect, he says he was actually just really scared--his little fantasy affair world had become really REAL and it was too much to enter reality. He is a very intelligent professional man but he's really got the maturity of a 13-year old boy at times.

She kept in contact with him through the years because she has borderline personality disorder and it's not easy for her to let go. But I think she was tired of waiting and she had a couple relationships after she moved away. The one she announced to him three months ago "took" and she said it was serious.
She wanted him to back off but not break up, but he said he had to break up. He said that the fog lifted because she would NOT "do anything for him" like she always said in all her love letters, but would actually just date anyone else who came along. (I see it as affair fog lifted)

I realize he could still be in contact with her. Or someone else.

I guess I will never be able to know

Have you exposed the affair to everyone? Does your DD know all about the OW? What about your husbands friends and family?

Yes, yes, and yes.
We exposed to all about 2.5 years ago when reconciliation was going poorly.

With his friends, they knew right away. It was a workplace affair and a lot of people suspected. When she moved away and delivered a mystery baby, the gossip started that it was his and he did not deny. My close friends and our common friends know because I have needed their support.

My whole immediate family and his whole immediate family knows. They have all totally sided with me and can't understand his indecision about trying to reconcile the marriage. I am lucky that his parents have my back. They want nothing to do with the OW or OC because they support marriage strongly (Catholic).

Our DD also knows about the OW and OC. THAT may have not been a good idea. She lost her hero--because they had been very close up until then. She actually became very depressed and suicidal shortly thereafter and I'll never really know how much her family life contributed (she was also going through some bullying/being ostracized in school and she attributed her decline to that...and she still suffers with mood problems to be honest.) She never forgave her father and it is so sad that they went from being so close to a dead relationship. He does try--he texts her every single day. She is rarely responsive. He invites her to spend time with him (visitation) but she refuses.

Up to now, during the separation we attend church as a family every Sunday and then have lunch out. It's his one chance to connect with her. That will be ending in Plan B/divorce. I am sad for her because I have to respect her feelings, but she is only a teenager once and he will lose his place in her life for these years...definitely not what I wanted for my DD. Yet I know that's not my fault

Grace,
I'm very sorry for what you're going through. I am glad that you have resolved to follow Plan B and protect yourself from the abuse you have endured because of your husband's selfishness all these years.

You have found a good place to help you recover from this tragedy. God bless.

That is a healthy normal reaction. He wrecked his relationship with his daughter by having an affair. Believe me, it would have been worse if you hadn't told her because she would have eventually found out. By telling her, you were able to give her moral guidance and prevent confusion. It is lies and adultery that harm kids, not the truth.


I am glad you respect her feelings. That is the right thing to do. Poor child.

Thank you, Justthe3of us. I didn't even know when I started typing this morning that I would end up here, remembering abuse and manipulation at the hands of someone I trusted my life to. Facing a divorce is the hardest thing I have ever done. I have had so many moments today where I felt like vomiting but I know I have to push through the bad feelings. Argh!!!! Infidelity s**ks!

Who on OW's side was the affair exposed to?

We did not expose the OW to anyone. She just ended up with a pregnancy/baby and no man in her new town and new job (also high income earner). She has a child from her ex-husband too (just 2 years older than OC) and they look really different because of different race fathers. She has cut that father out of the life of that child too.

I don't know what she told her family about the conception of the OC. For that matter, I don't know what she plans to tell OC about her father.

I do feel sorry for that OC.

That is why we told her...she now has a half-sister and that is never going away. Also she is very in tune with my moods and I was struggling so much, I thought I needed to tell her or she might think I was dying of cancer or something (the same year the OW got pregnant, my mother died of cancer, yes sirreee, what a year.)

So you didn't do a full exposure?

No, we didn't know about MB or Dr. Harley back in those days. The exposure to our family and our friends and our daughter was 2.5 years ago.

I am not sure if I could figure out how to do a full exposure.
By the way, her mom is a WW who married her AP (happened when OW was about 12 years old). Their marriage has lasted 20+ years. Not sure she would condemn her wayward daughter...

When will you be going into Plan B? Do you have an IM?

I know Plan B is to protect me from hurt, but isn't this case a little different than a WH not ending his affair? The affair is over. He is in withdrawal/grief from the OW finding a new man, and he's dealing with his guilt and shame over everyone who got hurt and his OC growing up without knowing him. He says he just can't come home yet because he is (his words) "working on himself and needs to learn to love himself." Also he says he "feels contempt from me" and can't work on himself and fully plunge into reconciliation at the same time. I know this is selfish, but not surprising. My H has always been the more selfish partner and I just accepted it before the affair.

He seems to be in some kind of midlife crisis. Every time I log onto my Kindle, I see what he has downloaded (we share one Amazon account) and here are the last four books:
"Anxiety: Rewire Your Brain Using Neuroscience to beat Anxiety, Fear, Worry, Shyness and Panic Attacks"
"Meditation Techniques: How to Meditate for Stress Relief..."
"Coming Apart: Why Relationships End and How to Live Through the Ending of Yours"
"The Lies We Tell Ourselves: How to Face the Truth, Accept Yourself, and Create a Better Life."
I should say he never ONCE downloaded a self-help book before the affair.

Thoughts?

I know you want to think that your case is special somehow, and that your WH is different than every other wayward. You are wrong. Your case is no different than any other affair, and the advice will be no different. Your WH is a normal, selfish wayward. He has subjected you to years of abuse through his ongoing gaslighting and affair, and even an OC. He continues to think of HIMSELF and could care less about the pain he has caused you. YOU are the victim.

Again, you don't know that the affair is over. And you don't know that there are no more secrets out there. What you DO KNOW for sure is that there have been ZERO actions taken on his part to heal YOU from the pain he has caused or recover your marriage. ZERO.

Dr Harley does not believe in mid life crisis. He is having an affair and has been living an SSL for many years. He is screwed up mentally because he is WAYWARD not because he is having a midlife crisis. Downloading self help books means nothing, absolutely nothing. They mean he is focused on HIMSELF and could care less about you or your marriage right now.

You need to go into Plan B and protect yourself from all of this Grace. This will mean getting rid of all connections to WH, like this Amazon account you share...

No, it is not different. The "crisis" is that he is addicted to the OW. Dr. Harley believes that "mid life crisis" is a form of denial.

Also, he is not in his mid-life, he is 49.

Have you read this?
Please Explain Gaslighting

He is gaslighting you. This is all bullsh**. He can "work on himself" at home, obviously. He does not want to come home because he doesn't care about his marriage. This is like the rapist saying he can't make restitution to his victim because he needs to learn to "love himself." I mean, c'mon, surely you can see how silly that sounds.

He doesn't want to come home and work on the marriage because he doesn't CARE about your marriage. He is very likely still pursuing the OW or has started a new affair with someone else. Bottom line is that you need to go into Plan B and get out of this mess.

Hanging around waiting for his crumbs only makes you less attractive and lessens the chances of reconciliation. It is harmful to your mental and physical health.

YES. I know.
I contacted our mediator and told her we need to get the final details in place to write a divorce decree to finish up this divorce!

I am ready.

You are going to feel so much better when you are away from this mess Grace.

You have been dealing with a wayward for so long now it is a wonder you're not in a mental institution.

You deserve so much more than this.

Thank you, unwritten. Thank you to BrainHurts and MelodyLane too...all of you have been so supportive. Yes, I think I have been on the verge of being in a mental institution but through the grace of God (hence my name) I am still functioning. I know there's something wrong with me, I am extremely codependent and I am going to have to get over that so I can move into a healthy relationship after recovering ***EDIT***

I don't think it is an accident that you made it here, my friend. You will get lots of support here!

Bravo to you for reaching out to your attorney!

Good job on proceeding with the divorce. Like unwritten and MelodayLane have said you will feel so much better once you're away from all of this and you're doing the right thing. Once you're in a dark Plan B with NC you're healing will really start to begin. You deserve so much better, my friend.

Do you start dark Plan B with NC before the divorce is final? Or after? (We have a mediator)
NC seems impossible. We have a house, all his mail comes here, he still has stuff here, he wants to see our daughter (who is 16) so he will be showing up at her extracurricular functions like this Saturday she has an all-day athletic function...it just seems so difficult...
And I don't want to jeopardize an amicable settlement since he's being generous...and also I suppose I have a soft spot for him because I still love him... I am not hoping to reconcile by breaking up an affair (it's broken up, I really feel that because I saw the OW's pics on FB with her new BF), so what does it matter if I do things nicely?

It is best to start Plan B now, the sooner the better.



Believe me, it is very possible. First off you need to find an intermediary who will agree to only pass on his messages to you that are pertinent and necessary. She needs to agree to act as a spam filter.

You would forward all his mail to his new location, pack his things up and put them in the garage for him. Change the locks. You would avoid anything he would attend.

If you change your focus and start looking for ways to avoid all contact, you will easily find them. We have women with BABIES and toddlers who successfully cut off contact.

You need to be strategic and plan this all out. You would send him a modified Plan B letter telling him not to contact you anymore. Before you do this, find an intermediary and plan this out, ie: separate all bank accounts, forward his mail, etc.

Read this: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2482787#Post2482787

Earlier I texted him to tell him I contacted the mediator to get the final touches on the divorce moving, and that I couldn't understand why he was willing to let the divorce proceed without fighting at all.

He admitted he's not over the OW. He said if she ends her relationship with her BF and contacts him, he doesn't know if he could resist. He says some days are better than others but he thinks that if he came home and she reached out, he would possibly cheat on me again. He then said if I can find peace in a divorce and move on that would be best for me, he just wants me to be mentally well because I am coming unhinged and he worries about me.

He also admits maybe he is not wired for relationships. He likes being alone right now.

Of course he likes his life right now. He rented a luxury apartment downtown while I am stuck in the aging martial home with all the responsibilities of parenting our daughter and emotional fallout of abandonment by my 25-year spouse.

I know this sounds so cut-and-dry that I should celebrate, not mourn, this divorce. But I am a mess.

Anyway...
Isn't it parental alienation to cry uncontrollably in front of your children because your H is a big selfish jerk and put all your husband's belongings in boxes in the garage?? That won't go unnoticed by a 16 year old. She will know things have broken down beyond healthy functioning. And she is very protective of me.

Hi! I haven't chimed in before but all this I'm not wired for relationships.... its just gaslighting. HE even has the GALL to say, if divorce is YOUR idea and is what is best for YOU???????? Holy cow.
I have never heard such wayward nonsense.
It was his affair- his choices- his actions that lead to the end of your marriage. Yikes.

Parental alienation would be actively keeping him from knowing where your daughter is... forbidding her from talking to him. Taking away her phone and any avenue he has to see her.
Then telling her lies (the truth that he has had an affair, other child etc do not count) they mean like: your dad is on drugs.... when he isn't.

If it was just packing up his stuff and crying about the demise of your marriage -every divorced person on earth would be alienating them. Divorces are messy-people have to move. Everything separated etc. All the things you describe are normal divorce situations.

Please plan b now!

Your daughter is 16. Nobody is going to worry about parental alienation. The whole PA thing seems to be a plot from the "fathers rights" movement to give controlling and abusive husbands the possibility to take the children away when their spouse dares to escape and tell the truth.
(No offense to honorable men who have no contact with their children because of their devlish ex-wives.)
Your child is of an age where she will be asked about her opninion in the matter, so by all means tell her the truth.

Please use this time where he is generous to put things in writing. And change the password of the amazon account of open a new one.

And tell him, that you will not be dealing with his mail for him starting monday everything will be returned to sender and the same goes for his clothing.

Although you may want to wait telling him after you have his signature under a generous agreement.

It's not parental alienation, its a loss of control. This is why you need to go into Plan B. You are all she has and you are allowing yourself to be destroyed. Please plan to go into Plan B asap and finish your divorce.

I am doing things to move the divorce along. My H is not resisting. He told me I could throw out all his books because he doesn't have room for them in the apartment and he will come get his remaining clothes this weekend.

I think about this transition (loss? not sure) every waking second and I am a mess. I know intellectually that I am doing the right thing but I feel terrible. I guess it is a loss, a loss of the dream that we could have a healthy marriage after everything.

I think I am codependent-- having lived with his objectification of me for 25 years and then 7 years of D-days with his OW. I always hoped he could be healthy in our marriage and that he would be so much happier if he were...if he could only come around to seeing the light. Yeah right...

Has anyone else dealt with this? Are there any threads on overcoming codependence on a wayward spouse?

Have you spoken to your doctor about getting some ADs?

\\

Grace, any normal person will feel extreme grief and loss at the end of a marriage. I am so sorry you are going through this. I promise you will feel 100% better after a few weeks of a pitch black Plan B. It won't always be like this.

Thanks for your support, BrainHurts and MelodyLane. I don't want ADs because I don't believe this is depression, just temporary grief and anger. I want to move through with full feelings. I hope you are right about it's temporary and Plan B will lead to a better state.

Pitch Black Plan B is a little hard because we have to meet with the mediator next week. And we have this all-day athletic event for our daughter tomorrow where I am the team photographer and he volunteers with the other dads to move heavy stuff. It is tough but I am not going to surrender my role because my daughter counts on me (plus the other moms whom I adore are counting on me for my photos) and he is not about to give up his chance to show his daughter he's still the "involved dad"...

I know I just have to do it (like Nike)

Grace, you can't go on, putting your mental and emotional health at risk. Going to an all day event where you know your cheating husband is going to be isn't going to move you forward. You have to take plan B seriously and that means NO CONTACT. Seeing him will set you back and keep the gaping wounds open. It's time to start getting creative in terms of how you can build a life without ever seeing him. Everyone will survive if you're not there to take the pictures!

I agree.

Read this.
Special/Important Events in Plan B

If you have the flu, who will take pictures? This is more serious for your health than the flu.

And don't forget, the best dad is a dad that does not harm the mother of his children.

The other moms will understand.

Anyone can take pictures. They will manage.
This will be an ideal time to expose to the other parents.
Just tell them your husband moved out because he is having an affair and it is too painful for you to see him right now.

And of course you don't have to see him at the mediator. You either sit in separate rooms or do it by phone.

I would skip all this stuff. Your mental health is much more important to your daughter. She needs her mother. Your daughter counts on you to be sane and mentally healthy.

And you certainly don't have to go to mediation. That is a terrible idea! Here is a quote from Dr Harley:

You need to turn the focus now to 100% on taking care of yourself and getting healthy and that's not going to happen with continued contact with your WH.

I went through a very rocky separation and divorce (ex WH moved in with a hostile OW etc). However, because of Plan B, I was not damaged. One thing that I do know for sure is that I was able to focus on and guide my children through this ordeal as well as I possibly could have.

You are allowing yourself to drown with the marriage. You need to cut the M and your sick selfish wayward H loose in order to save yourself. It is really that simple.

If you continue to cling to him, you will and your children will suffer much more than you need to.

Plan B, Plan B, Plan B. Today, not tomorrow or next week. Now.

Look at it this way: Waywards make TERRIBLE parents. Your daughter deserves at least ONE whole healthy parent. You need to give that to her.

Wow, thank you everyone who has contributed to my thread.

I did show up to photograph the event and my H showed up with the other dads. I know you all said I should avoid it, but don't forget my teen DD has a history of depression (and a suicide attempt two years ago) so I am always by her side during stressful times (like this competition) and I would NEVER not show up to support her!! (Plus--I love the other moms and they give me a good feeling of having friends, so I would be missing that if I just stayed home.)

Things were civil between WH and myself. Remember, he is not ACTUALLY currently WH because he got dumped by OW for another man 3 months ago. He is more like "I can't come home because I'm not ready" H.

It was easy seeing him throughout the day. I think it was easy because we were in public and couldn't talk about how terrible things are between us.

I want to tell him he should stop coming to these functions and let me be the parent in attendance, because DD really needs her mom for moral support at this time in her life. I just KNOW he will say I'm immature and controlling, and that I am trying to alienate her from him...that we should be able to co-exist at her events. Part of me thinks "you are the strong adult, she is the mentally ill teenager, he is the estranged dad who just wants to be able to also support her and show that his wrecked marriage doesn't mean he doesn't love her--what's wrong with that?"

Thoughts?

Actually I am very lucky that we found a good, Christian mediator. She is not "going for the jugular" but she is facilitating an excellent settlement that my H is agreeing to. Also, for my DD's sake, this seems better--quiet and quick and private.

My thoughts are that you do not take Plan B seriously and are not in Plan B at all. You will forever find excuses that create interaction between you and WH and therefore will continue to subject yourself to his fogbabble.

'He is not really wayward right now because OW broke up with him" is FOGBABBLE. It may work on you but it's not going to work on us. He is 100% wayward.

I am sorry to tell you that you are never going to heal this way.

That's great as long as you don't have to be there. That is the whole point. You shouldn't see your husband at all while in Plan B.

My suggestion is to start taking it seriously. You will never heal if you spend all your time looking for excuses to stay in contact with him. You will get sicker and sicker.

You can negotiate to alternate events.

I understand the value of a dark Plan B but I just can't.

I know I am extremely codependent and I am going to get help for this. I am reading two books on the topic and have found a psychologist who specializes in victims of abuse that I will begin to see. I know my H was psychologically and sexually abusive in our marriage and it's just now occurring to me that I am somewhat addicted to him despite everything. I get panic attacks for no reason as I work on the divorce details. Logically I know I don't want to live with him anymore, so why am I panicking? I can't even answer why. I just feel this huge loss and pain, and even have to suppress the desire to contact him and tell him I am stopping the divorce and he can have more time separated to "work on himself!"

Does anyone on this forum have experience with overcoming codependence when going Plan B?

What you describe is not "codependency," which is not applicable in a non addiction situation, but just typical dependence. It is much like alcohol or nicotine dependence, the solution is to quit cold turkey. You can do this. It won't be easy the first 2 weeks, but once you get past that, you will feel better than you have in years.

We understand your feelings of loss and grief completely!! I promise you they will go away. Your panic will lessen over time.

He has left you and you don't have any other option. He is not coming back. I am sorry.

UPDATE and plea for input!

I went through with the divorce of my WH who had " ended the affair but would not come home because he was working on himself." We mediated and the divorce was quick.

I felt good that I finally ended that ugly story, and even started dating a man from my church.

But then my exH begged me to give him another chance. He went on and on about how much he regretted the affair and divorce, and would do anything to restore our marriage. (This is what I thought was Harley's "hat in hand"). He confirmed that the affair was truly over and that now he isn't even attracted to her anymore, he just sees the relationship with OW as a terrible decision. He said he is willing to give me all passwords on devices, let me track him with GPS, block the OW on his phone and email, prevent overnight trips alone once we move back together, and lots of other EPs. However, he is not moving home!!!

He re-read Love Busters but I think he just skimmed it. He isn't reading Surviving an Affair. He instead is reading all kinds of other books to help him understand his dysfunction (according to him, he recognizes all kinds of psychological problems in himself and thinks he needs to get better).

I do recognize classical signs of depression in him. But he is not willing to take antidepressants. He has a therapist (Christian counselor) and we have a couples counselor now but I don't think anyone is helping him with the depression, really. One problem is that he is so busy at work that he barely has time for regular appointments.

After the "hat in hand" feeling of this summer, I now feel that he is back to his old ways. I feel that he is just not that interested in getting to a healthy marriage. Unless this is how depressed people deal with life?

He says he doesn't want to move back home because he isn't sure if he can be a good husband! (Again saying that!) Is this statement just crazy, or should I respect that he doesn't want to put our daughter (with depression herself, survivor of the OW/OC trauma, if you recall) and myself through another crappy marriage?

My friends and family all say, "take it slow...let him prove to you that he can be a good husband....don't rush to bring him back home" but I feel that the biggest EPs cannot be put in place while we are living in different homes!

He keeps asking me why I am rushing things. Am I?

One more thing... I ended the dating with the man from church because I didn't feel it was right to be dating both of them at the same time. So now I feel some resentment that I may have given up a healthy potential loving relationship for this

A wayward who wants to "work on" himself/herself is code for a person who is not serious. As you stated yourself, he said this during his affair.

All the years I have been here, I have NEVER seen a wayward who says this and is serious.

This is a typical wayward cake-eater playing games with you - tossing you some crumbs.

You need to go to Plan B. Are you willing to do this?

As long as you stay in contact with him, you are going to kept getting dragged back into this kind of drama over and over and over again, which is not good for your health and it's not good for your children.

Yes, I am willing to go to Plan B.

Do you suggest a letter describing that I am going into Plan B because he is not serious about restoring the marriage? And if so, what are the expectations I am going to list? Am I supposed to list coming back to live together again? (As stated, everyone keeps saying "you can't trust him, don't rush to reconcile, let him show you he has changed, etc., " although I don't really know how to assess that when we don't live together and are just dating 2-3 times a week)...

Nothing has changed since your first post except you are divorced which was a great decision. He is still acting very wayward and seems to have no intention of changing that, despite the fact you actually divorced him. The advice is the same as before, he is not serious. Go into a dark Plan B and move on.

Thanks, unwritten.

Essentially, is this Plan B to save my sanity while he moves out of the wayward mindset? Or should I just end it and REALLY MOVE ON (date if I want to, etc.)?

I do have doubts about whether he can really change his mindset if he allowed the divorce to go through, attempted to rekindle with me, and is now failing to be serious again. But his depression throws a wrench in my analysis of the situation. I have never seen him like this (just in the last 1-2 months, a real clinical depression). He can't get out of bed some days; he has stopped seeing his guy friends, he is looking more haggard, etc.. I guess it's tugging at my heartstrings...

I am sad that he can't live up to what he promised this summer...a healthy restoring of our marriage. I just want to be sure there is no hope.

Agree with this advice, just end all contact with him and move on. He is not serious.

At this point what you know to be FACT is:

1. He has been in a wayward mindset for many years
2. He showed no intention of changing that mindset or protecting you
3. You are DIVORCED
4. He STILL shows no intention of changing or protecting you

What you 'hope' is:

1. He will someday come to his senses, end his wayward ways, and fight for you...even though there is almost no chance of this happening after his many years of being wayward and his clear lack of care or desire to change.

Listen, life is too short to set your bar so low only a weasel can meet it. It is too short to live based on 'hope' that someone else will change.

Plan B can protect you, but at this point your main goal should be to
really move on. You are worth way more than this.

Many people deal with depression, or other mental or physical health issues, and do not act like this. His behavior pertaining to your marriage, having a long term affair, OC, refusing to commit to recovery and acting wayward to this day, have nothing to do with depression. You need to stop making excuses for him.