Good day to you all! I have been browsing these forums for a number of months, heeding much of the advice of the regulars. I started out on Divorce Busters but while I enjoyed the book and the idea of it, in practice it wasn't the program for me.

A little background. I've been married for 12 years, we have an 11 year old boy and a 9 year old boy. I'm an alcoholic in recovery, I will have one year sober on July 28th. I've been in active addiction for the vast majority of our marriage. Of course that means that my wife has put up with a lot over the years. She's always been supportive, willing to do anything to help me find my happiness. After more bouts of failed sobriety than I can count, last July I checked myself into rehab. She was wildly supportive of me there. She came to every family group, every visitation, we talked on the phone daily.

After rehab, I stumbled on my recovery program. I did not drink, but I also didn't follow up with my AA program or my outpatient treatment. Things continued to be bad at home, despite my new "sobriety". I say all this just to illustrate that I'm aware of my contribution to the love busters.

Instead of drawing things out I'll just hit you with highlights and you can ask for more clarification if necessary. In early February she told me she wanted a break from us. I love you but I'm not in love with you. I need space to figure out what I want. I'm depressed. The usual script. She promised up and down that there was no one else, that she was just tired and done and out of love. I begged her to give me a chance and do marriage counseling. She said counseling wasn't going to change her mind. I begged, cried, pleaded. All the needy stuff I'm not supposed to do. We ended up deciding on thinking about counseling with no commitment to it yet. I was sure she was being honest about no affair.

A few days, and many hours of internet research later, I read the affair script in her voice in my head. I still didn't think she could do it, but just to be sure I'd so some light snooping. I pulled up the text logs on our phone plan and discovered THOUSANDS of text messages to a number I didn't recognize. I punched the number into Facebook, and was looking straight at the profile picture of my wife's affair partner.

I confronted her immediately. She tried to say they were just friends, then admitted she had a crush, then admitted they were having an emotional affair but no physical affair had taken place. At this point she agreed to counseling, and to 100% no contact. We started counseling, she was never there. She didn't want to be there, was only doing it so I wouldn't think she was a bad person I guess. Easter Sunday she finally admitted that the affair had gotten physical. I already knew with about 90% certainty this was the case due to some things I dug up on her facebook location data during one of my snooping sessions but I didn't want to believe it was true. I told her I was willing to forgive and work on trust but she was still not interested in it.

While we were in traditional marriage counseling, we also started a second counseling program through our church. While we were in two marriage counseling programs she started her second affair. I caught this one early enough that I'm pretty sure it only made it to the emotional affair stage. During the time she was having this affair she requested a trial separation and I made the mistake of leaving the home for a month. While I was moved out, I read Surviving an Affair. I heeded the advice and did a full blown exposure. Between this exposure, and my telling her if she continued the affair I would file for a temporary restraining order for the affair partner and my kids she agreed to 100% no contact with him as well. This was difficult for her as he was the coach of her athletic team, so she quit the team. She only did it because he's locked into a custody battle from a previous relationship and she was worried that if I started serving him legal paperwork it would affect his chances.

While I was out of the house I contacted her and told her that I was moving back in whether she wanted me there or not. I would only move out if she had a court order telling me to do so. I also let her know that the only way this divorce would happen in mediation is if she just signs whatever I give her. I would be asking for full custody of the kids, orders against them ever being in the presence of any affair partner, and I would be asking to split our credit card debt in a manner where any mutual purchases would be 50/50, but any purchases that were strictly hers (vacations, trips with her team, etc) would be hers. She wants joint custody, no restrictions on who is around the kids, and an even 50/50 split of all of our debt.

I returned home in June, and right off the bat she was cold and short with me. I let it all out on her detailing all the ways she had been so cruel and unfair to me, and how all I've done is continued to support her and tell her she's not a bad person, and tell her that I want to forgive her, and tell her I still love her, and she's treating me like the enemy. It was a big blowout, but in the end she came to me and said she agreed that the relationship is only getting worse and she doesn't want that.

We spent a few weeks just being friendly while not talking, and eventually I got frustrated with her. Through the whole ordeal she's complained about me smothering her, pursuing her, giving her anxiety. So when I ask her for things, I never know if it's going to make her feel smothered. I said we needed to actually come up with a structured "trial separation" agreement so we both knew what we were doing. This is what we agreed on:

We will carry on exactly how we would if we were married, good friends, but not lovers. We will support each other financially, emotionally where appropriate, and continue our personal growth. She will agree to staying open minded to the slim possibility of changing her mind sometime down the road. I agree not to expect her to change her mind, or pressure her to do so in any way.

We will make any short term or mid term decisions together, with both of us being 100% in agreement. No "Fine." decisions. No definitive decisions about the long term future of our relationship until we both agree enough time has passed.

Absolutely no secrets. Absolutely no romantic interactions of any kind. My final request was that she try her best to forgive and trust me again before this is all over. I'm fighting with all I have to forgive and trust her again, and I'd like her to work towards doing the same for me.

And this is where we stand, and where I need help. We've been at this for a few weeks now. She's reaching out to me with regular text messages just checking in on how my day is going, pretty impersonal stuff. We continue to spend time together watching our favorite shows we watch together. I don't get off work until 11pm and she's planning to stay up until midnight on Monday nights even though she works first thing in the morning so we can continue to watch Game of Thrones together. We are getting along fine, I just feel like I've done as much as I can do on my own. I'm not sure how I should be handling certain things.

I'm trying to give space. She regularly likes my facebook posts, and I like hers. This last weekend she spent with her family doing all kinds of fun things and posted a new stunning profile picture. I didn't like any of those posts. Today I posted something super positive about how hard my last couple work days have been, and how I'm crushing it. She didn't like it. Instead she texted me directly "Great job kicking [censored] through the tough days! Just saw your FB post!". For some reason I was upset she texted me but didn't like the post. At this point I waited a bit to respond, thanked her, and then told her "You look gorgeous in your new profile picture by the way. I would have liked it, but I didn't know if that would make you uncomfortable." she responded that it wouldn't but she didn't like the picture. I came back and said I respectfully disagree, you look like straight fire. She agreed to disagree. Then I commented a bit on her going kayaking, she said it was great, and the conversation sorta dropped off.

I went back and liked her few posts from the weekend. Now I'm sitting here worrying that I came on too strong. Wondering if I should have continued to just pull back until she pursued. I'm certain she noticed I didn't like the posts, and I'm sure it bothered her on some level. I wanted to kind of pull back and get her to pursue, but then she just didn't like my post haha. I know this sounds stupid, but I'm at the point where it feels like every move I make is critical and I just want advice on how to proceed.

Do I pull back, or just keep complimenting her without going overboard. Her love language is words of affirmation. I bought her flowers before our agreement, and she asked me not to get her gifts because there's "no point". Should I continue to just grab her a little something here and there to show I keep caring? Is pulling way back the play? Like stop posting anything on facebook, and stop liking her posts, and only text her when she texts me and keep it short?

Lastly, when we agreed to things she said she was willing to read surviving an affair, but just not right now. I wonder if I should still pursue her reading it? I read the book, and I mean the way he describes how affairs start, and how the wayward spouse behaves and feels, it just seems like he's writing about her. I have hopes that she'll read it and it will give her hope that it's not too late. I want her to learn about the love bank, and how we fill it. I want her to do the emotional needs questionnaires so I can key in on what needs are most important to her. Right now I'm working on just being that plan A best husband I can be, and avoiding all love busters. Should I have her read it?

Sorry for the long post. I'm sure I left out details, but I'll be very active here and continue to discuss things. Any and all advice on how to proceed is much appreciated. Because she knows I'm not giving up my kids/finances/etc easy I've bought myself a lot of time. Time is my greatest ally, so I just need to know how to best use my time. I still love her so much. I don't want to lose my family.

I'm in control here. If she cheats again, I'm done trying and I'm just getting a lawyer. I have all the evidence I need. I have the phone logs showing that the majority of her first affair happened while she was on the clock at work, and have a phone recording of her admitting she met up with him for sex while she was supposed to be at work. And admitting to the second emotional affair as well. She knows I have these things. I have not threatened to take this information to her HR department, but I'm going to do what it takes to ensure that I get custody of my children. If that means she has to lose her job for it, so be it. I'm not making the decision.

She's walking away from her family. We're not splitting up. She's running. She can leave, I can't stop her, but it will be on my terms. Of course that's not what I want. That's why I need help.

Welcome to MB and sorry for what has brought you here.

Were her affairs exposed? Was her first OM married? Did you expose to OM2's girlfriend? Have you told your children?

Have you been tested for STDs?

Both affairs were exposed. OM1 wasn't married and OM2 was in an off and on relationship. When I exposed to her she said she wasn't surprised but they aren't committed so she's sorry for what he did but she can't help. I have not told my children but have let her know if we decide to divorce they will know exactly why. I have not been tested for STD's. I forgot to mention l, the first affair was only 2 months. They met up one time (verified with location services on her phone). I plan to get tested l, but haven't made I a priority since I'm not sexually active with her or anyone else.

Who else on both of the OM's side did you expose to? Their parents? Who on her side have you exposed to? Her parents?

Has she written NC letters and you send them to the other men?

Have you read this? Exposing to Children

What has been done from this list?

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

I did a full exposure to her entire family and myentire family, any OM family members I could find on social media, close personal friends, our pastor, members of her team. It was pretty extensive.

Yes no contact letters were sent to both, and both have been blocked on all social media and in her phone.

I have read exposing to children, and it's not at all that I'm opposed to exposure. However the issue is in that I did the exposure back in May, while I was moved out. I was out of state. I did exposure via phone calls, texts, and social media. I wasn't able to get my kids in the rounds for obvious reasons. Now since first if all I told her I'll hold off on telling the kids until we're 100% certain we're divorcing, it would be a major love buster to go back on that. Also it would sort of be filed under a trickle exposure. Rest assured when the decision is made they'll be told why we're divorcing.

Checklist for How Affairs Should End

DONE: The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

DONE: The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

DONE:The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

DONE: The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

DONE: Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

IN PROGRESS: (There is no 24 hour schedule, just regular check ins when going anywhere other than home or work. At any point I can check the location data in her phone to know where she has been) Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

DONE: Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

IN PROGRESS: (We are slowly working towards it. I suggest without pushing that we spend time without the kids, she always seems open to it without being necessarily excited. She's always 100% on board with doing things as a family, to the point of making sure I'll come with them bike riding or on a walk or to the park. We work tough schedules, so scheduling leisure time is difficult. I mentioned to her last week that it would be nice to have lunch together either Monday or Tuesday and she seemed open to it, said she'd let me know if she can make it work. I'm not going to push it because I don't want to come off as pursuing too hard). Spend leisure time together.

IN PROGRESS: (I have suggested that we move to a location that's closer to her parents, so she can continue to pursue her athletics without every being in contact with OM2. I've stressed a willingness for us to both change jobs, even if it will make finances tougher for a while. She's always wanted to move closer to her mom. Unfortunately this suggestion came when we were not in a good place and she didn't care to go ANYWHERE with me. I'll remind her of this option down the road once things get a bit better.) Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

DONE: Avoid overnight separation.

NOT DONE: (In the beginning I had access to all passwords, but at one point told her I didn't need them any more. One of the major issues in our marriage was my personal insecurities and jealousy and being controlling. I did this to illustrate I was changing that behavior. I'm sure she would give me all the passwords if I asked, but I think it would be a pretty good love buster and she could always just have people call her direct line at work or email her at work, so I'm not sure it would really be effective.) Allow technical accountability.

DONE: Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

Welcome to MB.

You are doing a lot of things right, but it seems you are also doing some things wrong.

One of the biggest issues I see with your strategy is that you don't seem to be making a huge effort to woo her back. This may be because you were using the Divorce Busters strategy. From what I understand about DB, the advice is for you to disengage with your WW and make her pursue you. This is exactly the opposite of Marriage Builders advice. In the 50 years Dr Harley has worked with wayward women, he has found that this is what drives women AWAY and not toward a marriage. The "Plan A" of MB is the exact opposite, a plan where you woo your wife back into the marriage, by taking every opportunity possible to fill her lovebank, while also avoiding lovebusters.

Have you read anything about Plan A? How do you feel you are doing at wooing her back into the marriage?

From how I am reading this, you had an AO (HUGE lovebuster for women) and laid into her. This is an example of what NOT to do. This will not entice ANY woman back into a marriage. Rather, it will make any affair partner look like a much better option. You need to never do this again.

Now this doesn't make sense to me. Do you want to be married, or do you want to be separated, or do you want to be divorced?

For the record, you are still married and living together. This does not equate to separated. If you were separated you would be, separate, not together... I don't understand why you would suggest a 'trial separation' if you want to recover your marriage???

Unless you want a separation (in which case, separate), do not bring up separation or divorce.

Spending 15+ hours of UA time with your spouse is one of the most important aspects of this program. You cannot be successful and be romantically in love without it. I read that you worked until very late in the evening. If your work schedules do not coincide and you do not have the opportunity for UA time, you should start looking for a new job, one that will compliment your marriage instead of putting it in the back seat.

There is no reason to password protect anything you own from your spouse, unless there are things you do not want your spouse to see. Since you agree with no secrets in the marriage, why would you feel it a good idea to have things password protected from each other?

The general populace talks about insecurities and jealousy as if it is a bad trait. The reality is that jealousy is a natural response to a perceived threat. If your spouse has items password protected, and is doing things that are questionable, then anyone would be insecure about that. That is a natural response to shady behavior. My H and I have NOTHING in our lives that the other doesn't have access too, and if he did have things that he protected from me, I would be alarmed at that behavior. And you should too. That is a good thing, not a bad thing.

Have you read what Dr Harley says about blind trust?

I've read about Plan A and would love to woo her back, but I'm struggling to figure out how to woo someone back that absolutely doesn't want to be wooed back. She's made it clear that she's not interested in reconciliation. She told me during our last big relationship conversation that she's tried to get to a place where she's willing to work on the marriage but she just can't get there. My response and how I truly feel is that since the day she dropped the bomb up until just a few weeks ago she was involved in affairs. The ONE time during this whole ordeal that she's had second thoughts and entertained the idea that we could make it work was one day after the first affair and before the second started during that tiny window.

So I guess that really is the question. How do I effectively plan A and woo back my wife if she doesn't want to even have an open mind about it? I can continue to give her affirmations but she doesn't want gifts, isn't interested in going on dates, doesn't want to discuss our relationship at all for the time being. That's where I'm stuck. Obviously your advice (which I will heed!) is to not pull away and play games with distancing and such. Now how do I weasel my way into drawing her back in if she's on guard for it? Like she knows I want to stay married. She knows I've been trying hard to win her back. That caused her to feel smothered. How do I court her without triggering the flight in her fight or flight?

And yes, I'm sure on some level our last blowout would be considered an AO. I'm glad t happened because it was the launching point for us getting to the place we are now where I've got the affair out of the picture and I have an opportunity to stay close to her and work on deposits. It definitely won't happen again.

Sorry, I responded before I saw other posts. Trial separation is just what I said here. We are not in an actual trial separation. Those words were never spoken. We live together, wear our rings, we aren't separated. It's more like trial "give her some space where I'm not constantly pressing her to work on our marriage for a while".

We will be able to make the time for 15 hours of UA once the relationship gets better to the point that she's willing to get childcare to go on dates and such. The time is there, it's a matter of working to a point where she'll spend it with me.

I don't have blind trust. I wrote in my post earlier it's a matter of that being a love buster in this exact point in time. Again, why I've been leaning towards her reading the book. Once we get to marriage recovery, we will both have unrestricted access. I will insist on it. At present I'm not in much of a position to make demands. If she reads the book she'll see what I'm expecting out of our marriage recovery and that includes unrestricted access.

Hi 49th, welcome to Marriage Builders. I underlined the biggest issue I see here. As long as you work evenings, you won't be able to woo her back. In order to woo her back, you need to spend your lives together. I am not surprised she has had affairs because you have been checked out your entire marriage. She hasn't had a husband and still doesn't have one because you are working during the prime marriage time.

What can you do to change that?

THAT is where you should start. And stop "giving her space," which only means ignoring your wife. You can't expect her to not be checked out when you are checked out too.

Plan A describes your actions, not hers. The reason you do Plan A is because she is not open to you. We know she is not open to it. The goal is to woo her back. But you have to be home in the evenings to do that.

The issue wasn't created by me working until 11pm. I just started the job a few weeks ago. I can certainly start looking for ways to change that, but at present time it's not an option to quit. I was unemployed for the months leading up to the first affair. Our financial distress was a major love buster, and this job doubled our household income overnight. Again, I'm not arguing that it's a problem, just that it's not the source of the issues and can't be changed in short order.

"The goal is to woo her back. But you have to be home in the evenings to do that." So you're saying I might as well just get divorced if I keep my job?

I can assure you if I quit this job without another guaranteed job that would be a death sentence as well. Another issue that's been consistent throughout our marriage is my constant dissatisfaction with any job, and constant job changes.

Sorry, but it is the biggest issue right now because you can't possibly hope to sustain a marriage when you are not there every evening. Working opposing shifts will tear down a GOOD marriage. You can't overcome the emotional detachment if you aren't living your lives together.

I understand the current situation wasn't CAUSED by working at night, but it will PREVENT you from recovering your marriage. Do you want to turn this around?