Figured I would give this place a shot to get a difference of opinion. This is what I posted on the talkaboutmarriage forum about a week ago.

"Long story short, have been together with wife for 17 years, 14 years married, 2 great kids. Marriage has had it's ups and downs but both have the same value system, beliefs, etc. We have had a lot of happy times together throughout the years, built a house together, etc. Intimacy has been a huge issue for the last 5-7 years. I thought it was just her not being interested, come to find out, it was me not being enough of an initiator and taking the role of a man that I should of in that department. That sunk in recently, too little too late for the issues.

She had a brief emotional affair back in 2009 but ended it and didn't talk to him again. As (BAD) luck would have it, she saw him again on a job site this May and they began texting and talking again quite a bit. Didn't know til Discovery Day on June 12. At first, she was sad, doing everything she could do to make me feel better but that only lasted about a week. After that, she began to have doubts about the marriage and she would be better off alone. She started trying again a few weeks later but it only last about another week to 2 weeks. Since July, she has said she is no longer in love with me and life has been Hell for me trying to better myself and make this work on my end. I thought she was a lot stronger and just a lot more independent but had my doubts that she ended the EA (kiss was involved). I discovered 3 weeks ago that the EA was back on. She was not as remorseful this time and a lot stronger in her rebuttal, claiming that the issues we were having had nothing to do with the EA but all of our past issues with communication, words of affirmation, etc.

Later that night she broke down, cried, called her dad and they talked and had a heart to heart. She told her dad that she was going to work on the marriage and end it with the EA for good. Problem is that she still 'needs' to talk to him for orders that he places.

Things went good for a few days as she reached out to me for comfort. Still no heavy affection or I love you from her but she seemed to have 'Got it'!. A few days later, she was starting to get agitated again, which I thought was normal just because of the roller coaster of emotions. It was still ok, she was not using her phone nearly as much, putting it down at night and engaging with the family. That last about a week and then she started getting back into the phone again. She re-installed Pinterest because she said she needed the recipes but I noticed she was still following him and he was her and that put me on edge but her Dad told me to let it be and give it time. I unfortunately also noticed, she still kept a daisy he gave her a few months back and it's in the middle counsel of her vehicle. Again, not very happy but I let it go for now. She is starting to act more odd again, so I can't let the stuff go. I looked at the Pinterest pages of both of them and it's almost as if they are sending messages to each other in the open with their boards. Hers about relationships and great date ideas and what couples can do that are fun and sexy. He had a post last night about his soulmate and how he found someone that loves just being in his company and asks for nothing else. That sent me on a fact finding mission and that's where I'm stuck!

I don't have 100% proof but a lot of circumstantial evidence. Her Dad is thinking on what to do (he's trying to help this reconcile and coach me through it). But I am more hurt than ever since I feel bad for snooping and I don't have evidence to confront her with it just a lot of hurt feelings. As much as my wife said she has changed and she is stronger, she is still up and down and I don't believe this is her one bit, I believe she is just so connected with this EA that she has lot all other rationality. Her mom died of cancer when she was still a teenager and I think there's a Mid-Life Crisis mixed in with all of this as well.

I'm stuck and don't know what to do, whether to stand pat for more evidence or confront with the circumstantial stuff. The other guy and my wife share a lot in common and as she said when I first found out, he is what I am not and I am what he isn't, etc. He says what's on his mind and is upfront. He's also about 14 years older than her and married as well."

**EDIT**

SINCE THEN, I have exposed to the OM's Wife. If you want to read the responses, please do but to summarize, she was no help what-so-ever, chalked up my proof and accusations to flirty talk and a few smooches. She said her husband would never do that and come home because he respects her. That lots of women love her husband because of the man he is and went into graphic detail why.

Within about a half hour of the exposure I got a message from my wife asking to see the email, so the OMW obviously went straight to OM and OM went straight to my wife. She was furious obviously, called me a 12 year old child for doing it. I mean she was already 99% through but said we are done. I said you cannot be friends with him any more, no contact and she continually stated she needed to for work and she would not end the friendship even if it meant ending us.

The OM called me and talked to 46 minutes, at first he tried to be Mr. Tough Guy (restraining order against me if I contacted wife again) and then he tried to act like he was my friend and told all of the things I needed to do and stated over and over nothing is going on and that they are just good friends but his behavior was pretty fishy. The guy is a narcissist and stated to have 4 other women just like my wife, that he can't do anything about it, that they like him. But he's not banging my wife.

The next morning when things cooled down, the wife and I talked and I asked her what her intentions were and she again stated like she has, she'd be happier by herself and with the kids (not with me). I told her, we need to give it one last chance, put everything on the table. She said she could make no guarantees. I'm still not 100% sure on his intentions but it's clear my wife is in 'love' with him. Her entire family is distraught but she will not listen to them. She has lied to her dad, even during their heart to heart early in October when I made DDay discovery #2.

I have done the trying to meet needs thing for months but started doing 180 type things last week. Neither seems to work because she can't see my changing. She stopped going to counseling after 3 times because it made it 'worse'. This is not the person I know, this is a great mother and a good person that has completely changed in the past 6 months.

I'm almost out of time and options but wanted to post here to see if there was any advice. Thanks for your time!

Hi stillfightingfor, welcome to Marriage Builders. It sounds like you are using a little of many programs which is very ineffective. We can help you use the MB program but we don't endorse the 180 plan from Divorce busters. [it is very ineffective] DB advocates "detachment" which is what created the problem in the first place.

You have done what we call a "trickle exposure" which is enough to infuriate the affairees but not enough to kill the affair. It has been our experience that a comprehensive exposure does the most damage to the affair. For example, I would expose to the OM's family and friends, your children and the workplace. This OM is a RAT and he will be easily run off if you cause enough trouble. In your situation, it has been continual contact with the OM that has dragged out this affair. If you don't put a stop to it, it will just become more and entrenched.

Please go read the thread linked in my signature and come back and we can discuss tactics.

Thank you for the response, I want to explain a little bit more about who knows about the affair.

- My Parents
- Her Dad (Mom Deceased)
- Her Sister and Brother-In-Law (Only Sibling)
- Her Best Friend (main source of her wife's support)
- Her GrandParents (they are more like her parents since mom died when she was 19)
- And As Of 2 Days Ago Other Man's Wife

I agree that the tactics from many different programs has killed my consistency.

I'm just not sure how much more exposure can help with those that already know? Wish I would have told the above parties as soon as I found out but it's been 5 months since I first found out and I didn't tell them til about 2.5 months ago.

She seems to have no problem pushing away her family even though she is close with those I mentioned above. Her sister has been hard on her but the others have just tried to steer her in the right direction. Should her family be more blunt and tough loving with her, they are all devastated and hurt by this and want her to come back and try in the marriage. She says that every time she convinces herself to try, she can't do it.

I believe she had her foot out the door back in June about 2 weeks after I discovered this. I believe it's because of her love for him but what hurts so much is that she doubts she every loved me as much as she thought.

The other big issue here is that I asked she end all contact with him and not be his friend and she is refusing.

This is somewhat of a START, but we would suggest a more comprehensive approach. Such as, exposing to the OM's family and friends. [read talking points and tactics in Exposure 101 thread] Also, the affair should be exposed to any children over age 4 and to the workplace. This is a workplace affair so the workplace authorties should be notified.

Your marriage will not recover as long as she has ANY contact with this rat, so leaving the job will be critical. I would approach her about leaving the job.


It will help alot. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so exposing to KEY PEOPLE can make a difference. If you just do a littlle exposure, it is not very effective.


It sounds like your family and friends are doing all they can. The KEY is to run the OM off.


This is very typical. Waywards are high on the affair just like a drug addict is high on heroin. She sees the past through the distorted lens of her affair. All waywards rewrite history as a result.. But that all can change if you run off the OM and kill this affair.

OM are cowards so it won't be hard to run him off if you cause trouble for him. For example, i would go to his facebook page, copy his friends and family list and expose to them all via PM's. Call or visit his parents and ask them to persuade their son to leave your marriage alone. Expose to his employer. He won't like the trouble and will likely dump your wife.

BUT, the most important thing is to kill all contact and that means she will have to leave that job.

Don't give up. Read my post above about running him off.

Thank you so much for the replies.

His parents are deceased. He's in his 50s, quite about 15 years older than us. I think that's part of the issue. He's a man comfortable and experienced in his own skin. He's actually a LOT like my wife's father in terms of skills and hobbies, which means my wife and him have a lot in common.

When he called angry 2 days ago, he said he would get a restraining order against me if I contacted anyone else on his side. I'm assuming to run me off without getting more info or making it harder for him.

My hope is that even though his wife is clueless, she has bumped up her radar to at least think something is going on.

This is where I would start, go to his facebook page and copy and paste all his contacts into a text doc. Send them all PM's telling them about the affair. How is he connected to your wife's company?

Also, he can't get a RO against you for contacting OTHER PEOPLE. He is a RAT who wants to scare you off.

It sounds like his wife is a simpleton who is easily fooled. But that is ok, you can go around her by contacting his family and friends directly.

Did you read the exposure thread for facebook tactics?

"Granted, there are situations when demands may be necessary in marriage. During a spouse's affair, for example, I recommend that the betrayed spouse demand there be no contact with the lover. If there is continued contact, separation or even divorce would be the logical consequence. While normally demands don't work, in this case there are no reasonable alternatives because thoughtful requests are even less likely to separate lovers." Dr. Bill Harley

I've often thought about exposing to our clergy. My wife is close with him, she's on a lot of the committees. She understandably says how bad she feels when she is there or in church. We are devout Catholics and our kids go to School related to the church.

Absolutely! Your priest can be a great help.

SF, my ask to you is that you make up a list of remaining exposure targets and do it all on one day in order to create a tsunami effect. The more strategic and methodical, the better. I would make a list, write out a timeline, get your talking points in order and execute your plan.

No need to confront your wife, she already knows what she is up to. You need to snoop to enable you to fight the affair. For example, you will need something in case she tries to deny it when you expose or if OM tells his wife you are a crazy person who is not to be believed.

Do you have access to her phone? Screen shots of messages from OM saying that he has 'found his soulmate' are good. A VAR hidden under the seat of her car and a GPS to track her movements are helpful but it is important that she not find out you are onto her.

Presume you know that this is not an EA at this point? Not that it makes much difference as it is still an affair but for sure this a PA by now.

Still fighting, you wrote this: "SINCE THEN, I have exposed to the OM's Wife. If you want to read the responses, please do but to summarize, she was no help what-so-ever, chalked up my proof and accusations to flirty talk and a few smooches. She said her husband would never do that and come home because he respects her. That lots of women love her husband because of the man he is..."

Did you have this conversation on the phone? If this was done via email or text, it could have been her husband (OM) posing as her. Very odd for her to be so blas� about what you were conveying. Make sure she knows.

Great point!!!

Thanks Melody! I bet dollars to Krispy Kreme's he was talking to the OM.

I discounted this on the other forum but now this is both forums saying the same thing. What makes me doubt this now is that I sent it to her work email address and she responded from her gmail address. I confirmed the gmail address is valid but she could have gotten the email at work and then told him immediately and he logged in, into her Gmail account and sent me the messages.

What's strange is the responses took so long to get. The first response was that they were going to report me to cyber security. The next one was, who is this and then followed up by what's your proof in the last email before I sent my proof over. That seems odd. He knew pretty damn fast too because within a half hour my wife knew and was calling me.

In my conversation on the phone, he also had the same tone as who this email goes about how the women love him and his coffee making, etc.

Could be a coincidence, could be not. I sent her a message on FB but she didn't even look at it, could be because he told her not too.

So what are you going to do to make sure you talk with OM�s BW? Can you go to her work or to her home?

It's like I want to find more proof that the affair has gone on as bluntly as possible since the 2nd no contact request. But it's going to be damn hard to find proof since they are now both on high alert I'm sure. I need to find a way to get some proof.

There's a sliver of doubt in me that my wife is truly the only one currently in the fog and there's no doubt she loves him but I just don't have all the proof I want over the past month that he has the same feelings. I just am so torn right now.

I really want to find proof that is concrete and has existed over the past month.

Do you have any spyware installed on her devices?

Nope, no access into her iPad or iPhone. Have been locked down for a few months now and I cannot get in. I even tried 2 weeks ago to get in via the Siri Cellular data hack but it must have been patched with an update or something.

The fact that they are still in contact is plenty of proof. You can't turn a romance into a friendship.

All you need is a) proof there was an affair and b) contact continues. She can call it a "friendship" or even a baloney sandwich, but it is still an affair.

CAn you get a voice activated recorder in her car?

Spying will help but don't get distracted from exposing the hell out of this affair. You need to run this guy off.

If this your WW "has" to have contact with him through work because he places orders with her, it means one of two things: 1) he works in her company and places customer orders through her for fulfillment, or 2) he works for a customer and is placing orders on behalf of his company. In the first instance, they both work for the same company and the company is at risk for a sexual harassment case from her or him if the relationship goes south OR from their coworkers if they carry on their relationship int he workplace. The second instance is just as serious because it creates a conflict of interest for both of them and opens both companies to allegations of kickbacks, fraud, etc. You may want to consider reporting the inappropriate relationship to the Human Resources Department or the Compliance Office/Compliance Hotline for the company/companies, whichever the case may be.

There is a letter I drafted that for use when notifying Human Resources/Compliance about workplace relationships. If they work for separate companies, it would need to be tweaked a bit to cover this situation. I am not good at all searching for previous posts, so perhaps MelodyLane could link it here in your thread.

It's in the exposure thread Exposure 101

Since I have last posted;

Last Friday - this was 2 days after exposing to OMW that gave me about as much help as a rock. I came home and wife is not really in a great mood, not uncommon over the last few months obviously. She was short with me but I was friendly, I stopped the one week 180 and went back to what I have been doing for the last 5 months is showing her kindness and love and trying to be open and honest. She was taking down Halloween decorations, I helped but she said, I don't need help, find something else to do. A little while later, she came down with her pants off, this is not uncommon either because that's how she is comfortable, shirt, underwear, etc. Later that night she sat on the couch and I sat at the kitchen table. She asked me how I plan going about making this better. I go up and sit next to her on the couch and she says DONT YOU DARE SIT NEXT TO Me and starts to cry a bit. She goes into how she was wearing those underwear and I didn't make one good comment. She goes into me not trying anything over the last 4 months. I respond by telling her she flat out told me she didn't want anything to do with me in any of those regards so I was respecting her wishes and explained how I have been giving her unconditional love. She goes, oh yeah, it's all me isn't it? I then go into how all I ever wanted was to be loving and intimate with her and she yells, well why haven't you done anything about it and says F YOU and flips me off (not common). She starts crying and says, no matter, I have made my decision, I'm done, I'm done. I tell her, please don't be done and let's give this 2 months of all we got. She doesn't really respond but then my daughter walks up and we end the convo. I talk to her Dad that night and he agrees that she tried to set up a trap for me. She is working on justifying why she wants to leave and to make her feel better about herself by blaming me for everything even though she has not made an effort.

Saturday, the next day - I re-open the conversation and ask where we go from here and to give it 2 months of no holds barred working on things. She says you work on you and I'll work on me. She said she is going to go to counseling to see why she feels the way she does about me (why she can't look at me), why she is so unhappy and doesn't want to come home. I ask her about being her rock in the past and being her protector, she just shakes her head and says she is her own protector now.

In Summary - she is continuing to re-write our marriage in her own mind and she is telling everyone that it's the fact that there's no love and nothing left in our marriage that's why she wants to leave and is saying she is not having an affair and he's not the reason why. She has stated to me after the exposure day that she will not give up being 'friends' with him. Her dad came over on Sunday to talk to her and tell her she can't treat me like this anymore but also said to him she will not break contact with her 'friend' and it's nothing more than a friendship. She told him she would stop playing mind games with me.

Since then, she has not been real friendly and seems to criticize or question every decision I make, as if she's ready to pounce. The mornings are 'ok' she seems more friendly, cordial then but after work, she's unhappy and short. She hasn't taken her wedding ring off since Saturday though, so that's a plus, at least in my presence anyway. She told me she has a 'plan'. She's not leaving me tomorrow and that she is going to counseling. She's going tomorrow but I found out it's a free counseling service over the phone and the Counselor is not an expert on relationships but has the following credentials;

Psychiatric Nurse Practitioner, ARNP, PMHNP
Specialties

Medication Management
Issues
ADHD
Anxiety
Bipolar Disorder
Depression
Obsessive-Compulsive (OCD)
Schizophrenia
Trauma and PTSD

At this point, I'm not thrilled with the choice but it's better than nothing. I feel our marriage has had true love but my wife is trying to convince herself otherwise, whether it's through guilt or just wanting to escape because she is in such a fog with this man.

She has posted a lot of her true emotions that I know are pointed or deal with him on Pinterest but since has settled down since I called her out on it, saying it feels like a slap in the face to me by what she pins because I know it's not about me.

Last night she posted this and her father and I agree, this was directed to her feelings about him.

"The mind replays what the heart can't delete"

Before that a lot of her pins were about who you should be with and what love should look like and feel like;

You are wasting our time and your time with this nonsense. Have you followed any of the advice given in the posts? This is not a blogging forum to blog about your own failed planning, but a forum that is dedicated to helping people follow the MB program. It sounds like you are here to blog about Plan stillfightingfor rather than follow our program.

Counseling is cute and trendy, but is a major distraction from resolving your marriage problems. Do you want help or not? If not, let us know so the mods can lock this thread.

This is all garbage that will do nothing to save your marriage. It is a huge distraction from the necessary steps to save your marriage. We already know how your wife feels, so posting this fogbabble does nothing to help your situation. In the time it took to post this meaningless babble, you could have been taking effective steps that were suggested in this thread.

We saved our marriages following these steps; we didn't save them by blogging about irrelevancies.

I have bought Surviving An Affair yesterday and read it, going to re-read it slowly again and I purchased Love Busters today (Instant Nook Purchases).

I guess I should have asked questions in my last post of what I'm trying to get at.

I'm working on further exposure as recommended but I'm wondering what your advice is on the fact that she refuses to give up contact with him. I don't think she talks to him that much but even if it's a little bit I know it keeps the love fresh in her heart/mind. Should I continue to press her to give up contact and work on exposure and filling her love bucket or is the no-contact thing a deal breaker for all the rest.

Was also wondering if you think the counseling on her own will be genuine to figuring out why she is feeling this way and to get to the root of her depression and self esteem issues that were pre-existing to our marriage?

Last question, should I have her own family apply more pressure and call her out on her lies to them?

Thanks!

You should expose the affair as we suggested. Please re-read our posts and follow the instructions for exposure. You need to expose first and then tell her that she will have to quit that job in order for your marriage to recover.


Counseling will be a disaster for your marriage. Counselors know nothing about marriages and will encourage her to follow her heart and you will likely end up divorced. Affairs cause depression and low self esteem. So remove the affair and THEN look into depression management.

Thank you, I'm back on Chapter 6 as well to re-read (Continues To Contact Lover)

What about your exposures? I think it is great you are reading a book, but you shouldn't use that as an excuse to put off the necessary steps.

Did you read our posts?

Please put aside the book and read our posts, followed by these 2 threads:

When Should an Affair Be Exposed?

Exposure 101

Thank you, I am being hesitant you are right. I'll set aside the book and delve back into the two critical threads!

Good man!

A word of caution about counseling. Counseling is destructive to marriages; it will be very hard to overcome the damage caused by a counselor so I would strongly suggest you avoid that. When the counselor gives her advice that is destructive to your marriage [as they always do] it will be very hard, if not impossible to overcome that.

You have enough problems as it is, please don't add another layer of problems.

This is a longshot, but your best hope comes from getting her out of that job. Your best chance at doing that is exposing the hell out of the affair.

People who come here for help can be roughy divided in 2 groups: the ones that take the advice immediately and the ones that in retrospect regret not taking the advice immediately.

Although I encourage you to also read threads of others who survived infidelity, read the book SAA and all the articles on the website, I strongly urge you to act asap and prepare exposure. With the help of this forum, you will be guided step by step to recovery.

She's going to be talking to one over the phone on her own. I can't stop her from doing that.

She went to three sessions with me to a marriage counselor and unfortunately she didn't want to go any longer because she said it was making it worse. I think it's because the Counselor was pro-marriage and wanted her to do things she didn't want to make an effort into. Plus, I think the counselor was getting inside of her wall and that led to tears and my wife doesn't want to get behind her wall to reveal the true stuff.

I am sorry to hear all that, but you are correct, there is little you can do. Marriage counselors have an 84% failure rate and have no earthly idea how to save marriages. They have a higher personal divorce rate than the general population. Dr Harley figured that out back in the 70's and stopped traditional marriage counseling for that reason. [he felt he was ripping people off] That is how he came to create Marriage Builders. He based his concepts on tried and true practices based on couples that were still in love after 20 years. His program is very different than traditional marriage programs.

Read this and listen to the radio clips. Beware of Bad Counselors