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#3000777 11/03/17 11:13 PM
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Hi all and thanks in advance for all help.


My wife and I separated on 1st Aug this year. We have been married 20 years and have 4 children S24 S20 S18 D11. We have had many problems in this time and have separated before (15 years ago). This first time she told me she had never been properly attracted to me but we still got back together at her instigation.

My wife was diagnosed 18 months ago withy Bipolar II. At the end of last year I noticed that she was getting very friendly with a mutual married friend. She had been advised by her Dr to try to talk to friends so it wasn't all on me to help her. I tried to push it to be with female friends but she has always found it easier to talk to men and so choose this man to confide in. I didn't feel I could complain much as this was Dr recommended. I have been studying for a professional qualification recently and this had been causing me a lot of stress and looking back had made me depressed. I lost all self confidence and started to neglect intimate conversation with my wife.

My wife and this mutual friend gradually grew closer and a few weeks before the separation I basically broke down and told her how I was feeling about her and this man and how it worried me that they were going to get together. She told me not to worry and then got angry that I was bringing up the way she behaved in the past. (The other time we split up other people were involved) I apologized and felt less able to complain but grew more concerned. Then we found out that he and his wife had separated 6 months prior but not said anything until now.

3 days before separation my wife grew depressed and told me how she had never been attracted to me in the past until the last few years which were awesome and she has been totally in love with me. (Reading his needs her needs she has the financial security need and I have only recently met this by getting a better job than before, but a few weeks before separation let her know that we were not well off and needed to watch the money. She didn't work at that point.) She also said that sometimes she still feels like shes not attracted to me.

We spoke about this a lot and got in to very intimate conversation on the first day. The next day she behaved angrily towards me and then on the final day I felt she was attacking me and so stupidly lashed out. She told me that her attraction to me had turned off like a switch and we should separate.

We agreed to not tell anyone at first but 4 days later she told this male friend. 2 weeks later I found they were being very flirtatious on FB (basically pornographic). 18 days after separation it turned physical. I confronted WW about this after 1 1/2 weeks. She got very upset and wanted to make me happier. Said she loved me but still wanted him.
Another couple of weeks later she was "falling in love with him".
She then had an episode and made an attempt on her life over me failing an exam as it was "all her fault". She called OM and had him come to our house. He made her wake me and I took care of her, with him still there. She then verbally abused me and cuddled up to him.
The next day I regret I got very angry with her and let her know how bad she had made me feel. I understand she was very drugged and not herself but it didn't change the effect it had on me. This made her feel that I wasn't there for her when she needed me and now OM was her only support.

OM STBXW is angry about the situation, we were all friends and it turned physical before she had moved out. She has exposed to all friends and relatives. I have exposed to my kids. WW feels very isolated and even more that OM is all she has. I have tried to be supportive (plan A) and address the issues she has raised, mainly love busters. WW and OM feel they have not technically done anything wrong as we were all separated before anything actually happened.

I gave my wife an ultimatum a couple of weeks ago. She can
1. stay with OM
2. Try aagin with me
3. Be with neither of us.
I said I could support her with 2 or 3 but if she choose 1 she would need to move out. She asked if she would have to end all contact with OM and I said yes. After a few days she chose 4. "I move out and do what ever I like."
She is now angry with me for giving her an ultimatum.

I am now trying plan A with more success (my head has cleared a bit) but no sign of breaking off with OM.

What should I do now. I'm finding it hard to have intimate conversations as the main things going on in her life involve the OM, how do I address this?
I dearly love my wife and want to get back to what we had or even better.

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Welcome to MB. Are you familiar with Dr. Harley�s Plan A?

Who moved out of the marital home? Who on OM�s side have you exposed to? Have you exposed to her parents and your parents? What did your kids say to her? Are you involved with your WW�s psychiatric program for her BPD2?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Hi BrainHurts,

I've read surviving an affair and trying to implement that as I understand it.
We both still live in the same house, separate bedrooms.
OM STBXW has exposed to OM side. I have exposed to mine and her parents. She is not close to her family, we moved to the other side of the world to get away from them. The kids aren't all that close to her, her inconsistent behavior has pushed them away and they have not said much to her at all.
Yes I was involved in her psychiatric program but she has now been signed off at her request.

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Have you told her she needs to end her affair and that you won�t have a marriage with 3 people in it? What avenues does she use to carry on her affair? Have you told the OM to get out of your M?
Read this and listen to the radio clips.
�I encourage BHs to confront OM� Dr. Harley


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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I have stated that I will not share my wife with another man. This lead to the ultimatum. She doesn't do well with feeling like someone is trying to control her.

She just goes out when she want's and see's him. Not that often but I'm at work during the day and so she could be meeting him for lunch. I know they have done this a few times at least.

When we first seperated I went round to OM and OMSTBXW's house and spoke to them. I basically said I want to try to save my marriage so keep out. This obviously didn't have any effect.

I will read and listen to the link now.

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I've listened to those clips. Like I said above, I've made it clear to OM that I intend to try to save my marriage and he should back off. I have kept that message going but he doesn't care.

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Originally Posted by bphubbie
I have stated that I will not share my wife with another man. This lead to the ultimatum. She doesn't do well with feeling like someone is trying to control her.

Hi bphubbie, you have received good advice from Brainhurts but I wanted to address this comment. She is controlling you, not vice versa. She is forcing you to tolerate her abusive and destructive behavior. Asking your spouse to stop abusing you is not "controlling." Just keep that in mind. SHE is controlling you.

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We both still live in the same house, separate bedrooms.

This means you are not separated. "Separated" means you don't live together.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by bphubbie
She then had an episode and made an attempt on her life over me failing an exam as it was "all her fault". She called OM and had him come to our house. He made her wake me and I took care of her, with him still there. She then verbally abused me and cuddled up to him.

Am I reading this right? The OM came to your home - where your children reside - and watched you and your wife have sex? Surely I have misread this. crazy

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I gave my wife an ultimatum a couple of weeks ago. She can
1. stay with OM
2. Try aagin with me
3. Be with neither of us.
I said I could support her with 2 or 3 but if she choose 1 she would need to move out. She asked if she would have to end all contact with OM and I said yes. After a few days she chose 4. "I move out and do what ever I like."
She is now angry with me for giving her an ultimatum.

Your wife is very destructive and this is her second affair. This is not a typical affair. Dr Harley doesn't recommend that betrayed husbands kick out their wayward wives, however in your situation more Plan A is unlikely to help. You should contact an attorney and make plans to move out taking your children with you. Since your wife is so reckless and mentally unstable it wouldn't be a good idea to leave your kids there.

That being said, I am very concerned about your judgement after reading the comment about bringing the OM into your home and having sex in front of him. I am hopeful I have misunderstood your comment.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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I think he meant that he "took care of her" physically after her suicide attempt, of which he didn't give details.


Originally Posted by bphubbie
She She then had an episode and made an attempt on her lifeover me failing an exam as it was "all her fault". She called OM and had him come to our house. He made her wake me and I took care of her, with him still there. She then verbally abused me and cuddled up to him.

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Originally Posted by DidntQuit
I think he meant that he "took care of her" physically after her suicide attempt, of which he didn't give details.


Originally Posted by bphubbie
She She then had an episode and made an attempt on her lifeover me failing an exam as it was "all her fault". She called OM and had him come to our house. He made her wake me and I took care of her, with him still there. She then verbally abused me and cuddled up to him.

That might be right, but the OM was allowed in his home and allowed to "cuddle' up to her. These kids must feel like they live in an insane asylum where nothing makes sense.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Yes and I agree that it's disgusting and out of line. Example of how WW is the one being controlling.

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Yes I do mean took care of her as in took away drugs, razor blades etc. Basically protected her from herself.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
That might be right, but the OM was allowed in his home and allowed to "cuddle' up to her. These kids must feel like they live in an insane asylum where nothing makes sense.

It was in the middle of the night and the kids slept through it all. The eldest 2 (S24, S20) no longer live with us, just S18 and D11 left. The OM is not allowed at the house but I didn't kick him out until it was all over.

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Originally Posted by bphubbie
It was in the middle of the night and the kids slept through it all. The eldest 2 (S24, S20) no longer live with us, just S18 and D11 left. The OM is not allowed at the house but I didn't kick him out until it was all over.

So you have an 11 year old at home? This set up must be very confusing for her to see her parents act like they are not married when they clearly are.

Did you see my post about moving out?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
So you have an 11 year old at home? This set up must be very confusing for her to see her parents act like they are not married when they clearly are.

Did you see my post about moving out?

I have made it clear to her I am not moving out, she will need to.
The 11 year old has been protected from a lot of what is going on, not really seeing much, but I will be talking to her today to check she is OK and see if she wants to talk about anything or ask any questions.

I know you say anymore plan A is unlikely to work but I have been working on Plan A for the last few days and am seeing positive changes.

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Originally Posted by bphubbie
[

I have made it clear to her I am not moving out, she will need to.
The 11 year old has been protected from a lot of what is going on, not really seeing much, but I will be talking to her today to check she is OK and see if she wants to talk about anything or ask any questions.

I seriously doubt that. Kids are very shrewd and know when something is wrong. Does the 11 year old know about her mother's adultery and why the marriage is in such a bad place? Has this been explained to her? It must be extremely confusing for her to see her married mother behaving like a single person.

Secondly, Dr Harley doesn't recommend that you require your wife to move out. Rather, he recommends that the husband move out if Plan B is required.

From reading your post, you have been in Plan A for some time.

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WW and OM feel they have not technically done anything wrong as we were all separated before anything actually happened.

But you are not separated. Even if you were separated, "separated" means MARRIED.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
I seriously doubt that. Kids are very shrewd and know when something is wrong. Does the 11 year old know about her mother's adultery and why the marriage is in such a bad place? Has this been explained to her? It must be extremely confusing for her to see her married mother behaving like a single person.
I will be explaining this to her properly tomorrow. She spends time with my parents most weekends and this is when my wife goes out.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Secondly, Dr Harley doesn't recommend that you require your wife to move out. Rather, he recommends that the husband move out if Plan B is required.
Legal issues prohibit me from moving out.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
From reading your post, you have been in Plan A for some time.
I've been all over the place for some time. No concerted effort to address her needs until the last few days.

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WW and OM feel they have not technically done anything wrong as we were all separated before anything actually happened.
I disagree with their view I'm only saying how the express their feelings on the matter. It's funny how they don't think they've done anything wrong but hate people knowing what they have done truthfully (the timelines involved)

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The exposure seems to be biting. We just had a talk (her raving at me). Started off with why I am a bad husband (actually got some useful info from this) then moved on to how dare I tell the kids, what made me think I had the right, its her job to tell them. I said that I felt it was my right to tell them but I also agreed that she should have told them before, just like OMSTBXW should have been told sooner and I should have been told rather than me telling her. I also pointed out that I didn't make any judgments or get nasty, I just told facts and if they aren't doing anything wrong whats the problem? This just resulted in more "you had no right".

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Her biggest problem with me is that I "always have to be right". I don't agree with this but understand that that is how she feels so I need to address that. I am trying to accept blame for being moody with her or snapping even when I didn't feel I had. I think this is what I need to do in plan a. Is this right?

Last night she also asked why I am so angry with OM? I told her that he was supposed to be my friend but still did this and hasn't even had the guts to speak to me about it. I also said that he doesn't show any guilt. Thinking today the biggest problem I have with him is that he is destroying my family and driving us apart. While in plan A should I tell her this? I know her answer will be no your doing that.

While in plan A should I just ignore the affair as all exposure has been done and concentrate on us?

I'm so confused at the moment. One minute she says we will never be able to have a relationship and the next shes saying what I need to change to have any chance.

I've told her I don't want her to move out. I know I need to be more consistent but we live ina very small town and so I see him around. When I do it sometimes affects me hard and I react badly. Any advice?

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Originally Posted by bphubbie
Her biggest problem with me is that I "always have to be right". I don't agree with this but understand that that is how she feels so I need to address that. I am trying to accept blame for being moody with her or snapping even when I didn't feel I had. I think this is what I need to do in plan a. Is this right?

This is what you need to correct and address for the marriage.

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Last night she also asked why I am so angry with OM? I told her that he was supposed to be my friend but still did this and hasn't even had the guts to speak to me about it. I also said that he doesn't show any guilt. Thinking today the biggest problem I have with him is that he is destroying my family and driving us apart. While in plan A should I tell her this? I know her answer will be no your doing that.

Tell her that her adultery is breaking your heart. Ask her to stop hurting you. Let her know at every opportunity that her affair hurts you deeply.

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While in plan A should I just ignore the affair as all exposure has been done and concentrate on us?

No, you should not ignore it unless you want her to think you don't care. Complacence gives the impression you don't care.

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I've told her I don't want her to move out. I know I need to be more consistent but we live ina very small town and so I see him around. When I do it sometimes affects me hard and I react badly. Any advice?

You should work on moving to another town if you ever want to have any hope of recovery. Dr Harley has recommended to others in your situation [small town] that they move away and if the marriage recovers, you will be out of that environment and able to save your marriage. But living there wll never be conducive to recovery. As long as she can run into him, the affair will be on again, off again for years.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Thanks ML. I wanted to tell her how much it hurt but was worried it was the wrong thing to do. I will start at next opportunity.

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Originally Posted by bphubbie
Thanks ML. I wanted to tell her how much it hurt but was worried it was the wrong thing to do. I will start at next opportunity.

Good man!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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I just don't get why they have to be so plain nasty all the time. I've got to ignore it and focus on taking control of my life.

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I need some advice. I'm currently in a play with my wife at the local theater. Me and my wife play each others love interests. The OM is doing the lights and his mother is the director. Today is the last dress rehearsal, opening night is Friday. I just came home from work early and found the OM and my wife hugging on the doorstep. Right now I want to contact the OMSTBXW and ask her to get the committee to all come before the show and tell them that I need to pull out of the show because of what is happening. Most of them already know what is going on. Is this a stupid idea? I want to continue with Plan A but don't know how well I can keep it together now.

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Originally Posted by bphubbie
I need some advice. I'm currently in a play with my wife at the local theater. Me and my wife play each others love interests. The OM is doing the lights and his mother is the director. Today is the last dress rehearsal, opening night is Friday. I just came home from work early and found the OM and my wife hugging on the doorstep. Right now I want to contact the OMSTBXW and ask her to get the committee to all come before the show and tell them that I need to pull out of the show because of what is happening. Most of them already know what is going on. Is this a stupid idea? I want to continue with Plan A but don't know how well I can keep it together now.

First off, I would call the police about the OM coming on your property and file a restraining order against him. For him to bring his filthy affair to your home is utterly outrageous. You need to tell your wife he is to NEVER darken your doorstep again. I am shocked at her cruelty and shocked you would tolerate this.

And yes, I would pull out of this show. Do what you need to do to cause conflict in the affair and remove yourself from this sick situation.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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You really need to work on moving away. You will NEVER save your marriage and will never live in peace in this town living in such close proximity to the OM. But in the meantime, you need to do a better job of keeping distance between yourself, your child and her adultery.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by bphubbie
I need some advice. I'm currently in a play with my wife at the local theater. Me and my wife play each others love interests. The OM is doing the lights and his mother is the director. Today is the last dress rehearsal, opening night is Friday. I just came home from work early and found the OM and my wife hugging on the doorstep. Right now I want to contact the OMSTBXW and ask her to get the committee to all come before the show and tell them that I need to pull out of the show because of what is happening. Most of them already know what is going on. Is this a stupid idea? I want to continue with Plan A but don't know how well I can keep it together now.

Plan A does not mean tolerating the affair, or hanging around OM because of some show. I would absolutely tell the group that your wife is having an affair with OM and because of the pain it is causing you, you need to withdraw from the show, and let the cards fall as they may. Whatever the fallout is regarding the show, they can hold the waywards responsible for that.

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Have you ever had an affair? Are there many affairs in your town? I am trying to understand why the OM would be so brazen to come to your home. That is shocking.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Have you ever had an affair? Are there many affairs in your town? I am trying to understand why the OM would be so brazen to come to your home. That is shocking.
No I've never had an affair.
We live out of town in a very secluded location so no one would have seen him.
I have handed him a tresspass notice so he is legally not allowed on my property. We also have an alarm system with a camera. I have set this up so it will send a video to my phone every time the door is opened. I don't like doing this but desperate times...

The thing that anoyed me most was his attitude when I got there. It was a real supierior what now kind of attitude. Of course my wife didn't see it like that at all.

I am noticing a change in my wifes behaviour. She is getting depressed and feels like everyone is talking about her. Friends have been putting pressure on her saying she needs to move out as it is cruel to me to still be living with me. She doesn't want to move out but I think OM might be pushing too. I'm trying to show that I'm on her side.

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Originally Posted by bphubbie
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Have you ever had an affair? Are there many affairs in your town? I am trying to understand why the OM would be so brazen to come to your home. That is shocking.
No I've never had an affair.
We live out of town in a very secluded location so no one would have seen him.
I have handed him a tresspass notice so he is legally not allowed on my property. We also have an alarm system with a camera. I have set this up so it will send a video to my phone every time the door is opened. I don't like doing this but desperate times...

Good deal!! I am just trying to figure out why he would so brazen.

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The thing that anoyed me most was his attitude when I got there. It was a real supierior what now kind of attitude. Of course my wife didn't see it like that at all.

Do you have a pistol? I am surprised you didn't shoot him. If I were in your position, he would have been escorted off at the point of my shotgun.

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I am noticing a change in my wifes behaviour. She is getting depressed and feels like everyone is talking about her. Friends have been putting pressure on her saying she needs to move out as it is cruel to me to still be living with me. She doesn't want to move out but I think OM might be pushing too. I'm trying to show that I'm on her side.

Thats great!! I would encourage you also to quit you drama team and tell the members why. You shouldn't act like it is normal to be around this horrible, despicable man.


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
First off, I would call the police about the OM coming on your property and file a restraining order against him. For him to bring his filthy affair to your home is utterly outrageous. You need to tell your wife he is to NEVER darken your doorstep again. I am shocked at her cruelty and shocked you would tolerate this.

And yes, I would pull out of this show. Do what you need to do to cause conflict in the affair and remove yourself from this sick situation.

I have previously told her that he is NOT allowed to come to my house but she thought I would never know. And just doesn't give a [censored].

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by bphubbie
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Have you ever had an affair? Are there many affairs in your town? I am trying to understand why the OM would be so brazen to come to your home. That is shocking.
No I've never had an affair.
We live out of town in a very secluded location so no one would have seen him.
I have handed him a tresspass notice so he is legally not allowed on my property. We also have an alarm system with a camera. I have set this up so it will send a video to my phone every time the door is opened. I don't like doing this but desperate times...

Good deal!! I am just trying to figure out why he would so brazen.

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The thing that anoyed me most was his attitude when I got there. It was a real supierior what now kind of attitude. Of course my wife didn't see it like that at all.

Do you have a pistol? I am surprised you didn't shoot him. If I were in your position, he would have been escorted off at the point of my shotgun.

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I am noticing a change in my wifes behaviour. She is getting depressed and feels like everyone is talking about her. Friends have been putting pressure on her saying she needs to move out as it is cruel to me to still be living with me. She doesn't want to move out but I think OM might be pushing too. I'm trying to show that I'm on her side.

Thats great!! I would encourage you also to quit you drama team and tell the members why. You shouldn't act like it is normal to be around this horrible, despicable man.

Unfortunately you're not allowed to have guns in this country. Or maybe fortunately as I was very angry.

He has no morals and doesn't seem like he has any guilt.

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To lighten the mood I thought I'd post some funny things my wife has said recently.

After having been in an affair for over two months and talking about something else "For the first time I'm going to think about me"

When I decided to stop putting money in to her bank for housekeeping "It would have been nice if you talked to me and we discussed it." I did point out that "I don't remember us discussing your decision to [censored] OM"

"I feel like I've destroyed your life. I feel like I've destroyed my life. I can't help that I have feelings for someone else."

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Oh I got another one. While getting a shouting at after telling a mutual friend about the affair. "She didn't even know that OM and OMSTBXW were seperated. Do you know what a horrible way that was for her to find out?"

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We have a whole thread with some of the same crazy, Craziest things to come out of a wayawrd�s piehole


FWW/BW (me)
WH
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Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Thanks BrainHurts. I've been reading that, it's amazing how they say the same things even though their situation is so special and unique.

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Originally Posted by bphubbie
Thanks BrainHurts. I've been reading that, it's amazing how they say the same things even though their situation is so special and unique.
Yes all waywards follow the same wayward script and that�s why the many of us that have been here for years know that the BS needs to follow the Plan.


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First reading Dr Harley's website and books it all made sense and I could see my situation in what he said about marriages and how the A started. If there was any doubt my wife dispelled that with our conversation yesterday.

She was talking about how the A started, she's already admitted that she had a crush on him before but that it "was never going to lead to anything". Anyway she was talking with him 1 week after we "split" and they started to talk about their respective marriages. At that moment "things changed and something was definitely going to happen and they couldn't stop it." (Any one else hear the Love Bank deposits pouring in)

It was hard to hear but it was good to get confirmation of what Dr Harley says and gives me more confidence that I can turn things around using plan A.

She also told me OM had been whining to her about how down he was feeling. She told OM not to dare to whine to her about his problems when she was going through so much more. He apologized so they're good again now. puke
Nice to hear that they still support each other and care about each others feelings. grin

(I've just got some sleeping tablets from the Dr, which wife already has. Conversations when we've both taken these look like they could be quite revealing and helpful.)

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I'm starting to wonder if it's worth bothering with plan A or if I should just go straight to plan D.
I take my share of the blame for what has happened. I let things slip and should have focused more on my marriage, I shouldn't have got cross with her when she was being honest with me. But it would be nice if occasionally everything wasn't all my fault. Maybe a little blame sharing. When OM came to my house the other day, I didn't quite follow it, but somehow that was my fault. (Trespassing him from the property, I happily take the blame for that! smirk )

The wife I love seems completely gone and I don't know if she will ever come back but the person in her place is a complete [censored]!
I see the occasional flash where there is some accountability and regret but instantly it's gone again to be replaced by this alien and everything I do is picked at for being wrong. I know this is to be expected, it's the fog and I will pick myself up again and keep trying, keep apologizing for every slight to he feelings.

The Dr's put me on anti depressants and they're making me feel crap at the moment, so just feel like having a whinge.

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Originally Posted by bphubbie
I'm starting to wonder if it's worth bothering with plan A or if I should just go straight to plan D.

Think about the marriages of your children and your grandchildren and how wonderful it would be for you to have that joy together. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by fighting for your marriage.

Originally Posted by bphubbie
I take my share of the blame for what has happened. I let things slip and should have focused more on my marriage, I shouldn't have got cross with her when she was being honest with me.


Everybody who comes here feels this way. It as if a blindfold was suddenly taken off your eyes. The good news is that you can use your new found knowledge to make a better marriage no matter what happens next.


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Originally Posted by living_well
Think about the marriages of your children and your grandchildren and how wonderful it would be for you to have that joy together. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by fighting for your marriage.

That's all that's keeping me going at the moment. It's just really hard to be the best husband I can when everything I do and say gets attacked. Even stuff that just gets attributed to me, "you talk about me with everyone behind my back."

I know this is what we all need to go through, I'm just struggling at the moment, hopefully these tablets will kick in soon!

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OK, I've pulled myself together.

When she gets angry with me should I apologize regardless of whether I've even done anything or not? I've been apologizing for how things I have done have made her feel but this just seems to be making her angrier.

For example she will accuse me of avoiding her when I haven't been I've just been spending time with the kids or something. Then if I try to spend lots of time with her I'll be crowding her. Should I apologize for this and just take it on the chin?
Because things like this are common now when I apologize she says you don't really mean it because you keep doing it.

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Originally Posted by bphubbie
OK, I've pulled myself together.

:-)

Originally Posted by bphubbie
When she gets angry with me should I apologize regardless of whether I've even done anything or not? I've been apologizing for how things I have done have made her feel but this just seems to be making her angrier.

Can you smile sweetly and change the subject? Maybe think of something she would like to talk about such as what the children should give her for her birthday?

Originally Posted by bphubbie
For example she will accuse me of avoiding her when I haven't been I've just been spending time with the kids or something. Then if I try to spend lots of time with her I'll be crowding her. Should I apologize for this and just take it on the chin?

Be careful with this one. There may be some clues in there. If she is accusing you of avoiding her, that may be an opportunity for you to spend more time with her. Listen carefully. No you don't apologise, you thank her for letting you know.

Originally Posted by bphubbie
Because things like this are common now when I apologize she says you don't really mean it because you keep doing it.


If you apologise and keep doing the same thing, there is no human on the planet who would not be infuriated.


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Originally Posted by bphubbie
For example she will accuse me of avoiding her when I haven't been I've just been spending time with the kids or something. Then if I try to spend lots of time with her I'll be crowding her. Should I apologize for this and just take it on the chin?
Because things like this are common now when I apologize she says you don't really mean it because you keep doing it.

This is all good feedback and you should listen to her. Don't apologize but make the change.


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Originally Posted by Living_Well
Can you smile sweetly and change the subject? Maybe think of something she would like to talk about such as what the children should give her for her birthday?

When I've tried to do something like this I'm condescending and ignoring her feelings.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
This is all good feedback and you should listen to her. Don't apologize but make the change.

Those weren't the best examples of what I meant, i just couldn't think of anything else at the time. A better example just happened. She brought me a cup of tea. I said "thank you" and as she left the room she said "your welcome" then came back and asked "what have I done" when I said nothing and asked why, she said I didn't acknowledge her. I said that I had thanked her but she wouldn't have any of it and said you might have thought you did but you didn't say anything. This is the kind of stuff I'm meaning. I asked if it was possible she just didn't hear me but no, I "didn't say anything". I just don't see how I can change my behavior in this kind of situation as I've already done what she wanted but it's not being acknowledged.
The other things she does is we will have a conversation and everything seems fine. Then a couple of hours later she will seem really annoyed about something. When I ask what's wrong I will get told all these things I have said or the way I've said them. I don't believe I have said these things or used the tone she is saying I did and if I did why has it taken hours for her to get annoyed about it. In these situations I'm saying that isn't how I remember it but apologizing for how she feels.

Originally Posted by Living_Well
If you apologise and keep doing the same thing, there is no human on the planet who would not be infuriated

I get this but if i don't apologise I'm an [censored] but if I do I'm doing the same things all the time and so don't mean it. I could understand this and address it and so not do the same thing again but when, like in the example above, I'm being accused of not thanking her when I did I'm kind of stuck.

I think I've worked out the "You always have to be right" issue though. I believe that 2 people can have different opinions on something and that's fine as long as you can respect and acknowledge the other persons opinion and their right to have it. She believes you either have to agree with her or else you are saying she is wrong and you are right.

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Big development. She has decided to go back on meds for bipolar. Doesn't change our situ but at least if she's stable there might be more chance.

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Originally Posted by bphubbie
Those weren't the best examples of what I meant, i just couldn't think of anything else at the time. A better example just happened. She brought me a cup of tea. I said "thank you" and as she left the room she said "your welcome" then came back and asked "what have I done" when I said nothing and asked why, she said I didn't acknowledge her. I said that I had thanked her but she wouldn't have any of it and said you might have thought you did but you didn't say anything. This is the kind of stuff I'm meaning. I asked if it was possible she just didn't hear me but no, I "didn't say anything". I just don't see how I can change my behavior in this kind of situation as I've already done what she wanted but it's not being acknowledged.
The other things she does is we will have a conversation and everything seems fine. Then a couple of hours later she will seem really annoyed about something. When I ask what's wrong I will get told all these things I have said or the way I've said them. I don't believe I have said these things or used the tone she is saying I did and if I did why has it taken hours for her to get annoyed about it. In these situations I'm saying that isn't how I remember it but apologizing for how she feels.

Apologizing for how she feels is an insult so I wouldn't do that. It sounds to me like you are in the habit of deny, deny, deny, instead of listening to her complaints and making changes. Stop arguing and denying and make a decision to do it better. Start listening and stop talking.
'
If she told you she didn't feel acknowledged or thanked for bringing you coffee, then DO IT BETTER. Don't sit there and deny her complaints and argue about it!

When you feel like "apologizing for how she feels" it would be better, and less damaging to just slap her. Don't ever do that again! That is not an apology.

You need to avoid arguments at all cost. It is a bad habit that completely turns women off.


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Thank you ML. I needed to hear that and you're right. If she was saying these things to someone else I would back her so just because it's me that shouldn't change. I need to be her biggest supporter.

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So this is totally messed up. My Wife came to me this evening and said she can see how much pain her relationship with OM is causing me so she is going to stop "seeing" him. She will still talk to him and hang out sometimes they just won't "see" each other. She also said this doesn't mean we are getting back together and she has no intention of working on our relationship. They feel like they are cheating (maybe because they are) and it's too complicated right now.

I know this is less than a false recovery. All that's going to happen at best is they won't sleep together for a couple of months but more likely it will just go underground until they feel enough time has passed. She is already in withdrawal and getting sad and angrier with me.

I don't know what to say to this. If that's the way it is I don't see the point, she might as well keep "seeing" him. I just don't want to be in the position of actively encouraging her to "see" him, like I'm saying it is OK. What on earth do I do or say?

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Originally Posted by bphubbie
I don't know what to say to this. If that's the way it is I don't see the point, she might as well keep "seeing" him. I just don't want to be in the position of actively encouraging her to "see" him, like I'm saying it is OK. What on earth do I do or say?

Just be a broken record and keep telling her "your affair is killing me. It hurts me so much. Please stop hurting me. Please stop hurting me." Ask her to end her affair by ending all contact.

Your wife is delusional so you need to stop feeding that. First off, you are not "separated" and she is just a married woman who is committing adultery.


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This seems worse than her "seeing" him. It's not what they do so much that is the problem, it's the feelings involved.

No one seems to be pressing the fact that they are both still married as a problem. There has been alot of that around here. The not being seperated has been an issue for some people but the biggest benefit of exposure seems to have been they felt talked about. By waiting a while to resume I think they are hopping to legitamise their relationship - "look we waited and we're still in love".

My wife has been going round like a lovesick tenager listening to love songs and looking weepy. I'm wondering if the best thing I can do is move out for a few months. That way she can see what it would be like without me. I don't think anything else is going to break the fog. I know it would be a risk as she might just move on but atleast I would know and could start to rebuild my life alone.

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Originally Posted by bphubbie
This seems worse than her "seeing" him. It's not what they do so much that is the problem, it's the feelings involved.

What a silly comment. She has said she will be seeing him.

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y waiting a while to resume I think they are hopping to legitamise their relationship - "look we waited and we're still in love".

They are still seeing each other. Just because she told you they aren't having sex a) does not mean it is true and b) is meaningless anyway. An affair is an affair.

I can change the name of an affair to a baloney sandwich, it doesn't mean it is true, it just means I am insane.

I would start making plans to separate. Let her know today that this will lead to divorce if she does not end her adulterous affair. Tell her you need to start talking about separation.

What is your plan for separation? This is an especially sick situation because your wife is deep into a fantasy where she is rubbing her adultery in your face every day. She essentially moved into the guest room, proclaimed herself "separated" and flaunts her adultery in your face. That is not a healthy situation for any of you.


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bphubbie,
First hang in there. You can do it.
Second, do not move out - do not suggest that you move, do not in anyway indicate you are considering it.
I know that there is an article about this - I just did a quick search and didn't find it (reflection of my search skills) but I am sure someone else will be along to provide the link, and more background.
In the meantime, what can you do to address her complaints? What are you doing to monitor any contact they may still have?

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by bphubbie
She then had an episode and made an attempt on her life over me failing an exam as it was "all her fault". She called OM and had him come to our house. He made her wake me and I took care of her, with him still there. She then verbally abused me and cuddled up to him.

Am I reading this right? The OM came to your home - where your children reside - and watched you and your wife have sex? Surely I have misread this. crazy

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I gave my wife an ultimatum a couple of weeks ago. She can
1. stay with OM
2. Try aagin with me
3. Be with neither of us.
I said I could support her with 2 or 3 but if she choose 1 she would need to move out. She asked if she would have to end all contact with OM and I said yes. After a few days she chose 4. "I move out and do what ever I like."
She is now angry with me for giving her an ultimatum.

Your wife is very destructive and this is her second affair. This is not a typical affair. Dr Harley doesn't recommend that betrayed husbands kick out their wayward wives, however in your situation more Plan A is unlikely to help. You should contact an attorney and make plans to move out taking your children with you. Since your wife is so reckless and mentally unstable it wouldn't be a good idea to leave your kids there.

That being said, I am very concerned about your judgement after reading the comment about bringing the OM into your home and having sex in front of him. I am hopeful I have misunderstood your comment.


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Originally Posted by Allan_Tweed
bphubbie,
First hang in there. You can do it.
Second, do not move out - do not suggest that you move, do not in anyway indicate you are considering it.

Dr Harley has suggested that a husband is the one to move out for Plan B. He is getting close to that point. Secondly, they live in a small town and will have to move away in order to recover. Dr Harley has recommended in such cases that the BS move away - after doing Plan A- and when the affair dies, the WS can follow the BS. That sets the stage for a possible recovery.

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What are you doing to monitor any contact they may still have?

They openly date and they flaunt it. She moved into the guest room and announced she was "separated" and therefore, entitled to have an affair. The OM even comes to their home.

What he should be doing is making plans to move and telling his wife this will lead to divorce if she doesn't end her affair.


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
They are still seeing each other. Just because she told you they aren't having sex a) does not mean it is true and b) is meaningless anyway. An affair is an affair.

I know it is meaningless and have told her so. I have said I want her to stop seeing him completely and for us to work together on our marriage. She replied that we will NEVER be together again.

We also talked about other stuff and she shared to me a link about co-dependency. She has studied a bit of psychology and says that was our problem. I have read the link and agree that it described us well but don't see that that was a problem (I've since read Dr Harley's article about the co-dependency movement ruining marriage). This does explain some of her complaints a bit better - paraphrasing my wife here - We were too close???? I thought that was the point of marriage. I have told her that I think you should spend your most enjoyable moments with your spouse, she disagrees and says that is what friends are for.

I have started looking for jobs outside our town ready for a move away.

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Originally Posted by bphubbie
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
They are still seeing each other. Just because she told you they aren't having sex a) does not mean it is true and b) is meaningless anyway. An affair is an affair.

I know it is meaningless and have told her so. I have said I want her to stop seeing him completely and for us to work together on our marriage. She replied that we will NEVER be together again.

Yet, you ARE together. You are married and live together. I would bring this up when she says this. Don't give credence to her delusions.

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We also talked about other stuff and she shared to me a link about co-dependency. She has studied a bit of psychology and says that was our problem. I have read the link and agree that it described us well but don't see that that was a problem (I've since read Dr Harley's article about the co-dependency movement ruining marriage). This does explain some of her complaints a bit better - paraphrasing my wife here - We were too close???? I thought that was the point of marriage. I have told her that I think you should spend your most enjoyable moments with your spouse, she disagrees and says that is what friends are for.

This is like the falling down drunk who blames their drinking on their marriage. It is all meaningless fogbabble. "C0-dependency" makes no sense outside of addiction.

I
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have started looking for jobs outside our town ready for a move away.

Yeah!! Best news I have heard from you!! I would also be a broken record with her, tell her how much her adultery with "Sally's husband" hurts you. Ask her to end her affair and keep reminding her that this will lead to divorce. I would refer to the OM as XYZ's husband to remind her he is a married man.


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ML,
I really thought I had read a thread or an article entitled "Men do Not Move Out"
As I can't find it I must have been dreaming, or is there a difference between Plan A, and Plan B? i.e. Men do not move out if you are trying to Plan A, but then if that doesn't work and you decide to move to Plan B - move out.
Is there a reason for this? Is it because a man can not usually lock a woman out (as has been suggested to betrayed wives here to do to their WH)without it looking really bad (i.e. in court))?
I get if you are trying to Plan A - then stay, and I can see an argument for leaving when you move to Plan B - but at the same time, depending on the domestic and financial situation doesn't this add stress to the BH? Sorry, just trying to understand.
Also - I saw that she was going out - but I was hoping that the exposure would have more of an impact.
edited for clarity - and spelling

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Originally Posted by Allan_Tweed
ML,
I really thought I had read a thread or an article entitled "Men do Not Move Out"
As I can't find it I must have been dreaming, or is there a difference between Plan A, and Plan B? i.e. Men do not move out if you are trying to Plan A, but then if that doesn't work and you decide to move to Plan B - move out.

You are exactly right. Men should not move out in Plan A, but should move out in Plan B. Dr Harley doesn't recommend ever kicking a woman out of her home. But he does advocate asking a wayward husband to move out.

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I get if you are trying to Plan A - then stay, and I can see an argument for leaving when you move to Plan B - but at the same time, depending on the domestic and financial situation doesn't this add stress to the BH? Sorry, just trying to understand.

No, if a BH is ready to go into Plan B, ie: enduring severe emotional fallout over the affair, it relieves stress to move out. And of course, the only way to go into Plan B is to separate. If the affair does not end in a certain amount of time, it is not recommended the BS live forever in that toxic situation.



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ML,
Thank you - so I am not totally messed up, just missing the distinction between Plan A, and Plan B.

Now - I understand the idea of moving away - make the wayward spouse follow you. This is logical to me.

How does child custody work in this case? Should the BS get primary custody before moving? I can't imagine being farther than 5 minutes from my boys, and wouldn't want to move outside of their present school district. Which would go against the idea of moving away from triggers etc.

Does the Betrayed Spouse secure primary custody before moving? And in the case where you have a husband working towards these goals I can see that as challenging - i.e. will the judge agree to allowing the child to be moved from one school to another etc in the middle of the school year.

Sorry, I don't mean to TJ - and I do not want to derail, or contradict your advice, this is just really an interesting situation, that I could see applying to others.

Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Allan_Tweed
How does child custody work in this case? Should the BS get primary custody before moving? I can't imagine being farther than 5 minutes from my boys, and wouldn't want to move outside of their present school district. Which would go against the idea of moving away from triggers etc.

That would have to be worked out legally. But keep in mind, the best outcome for the child is to have parents with an intact marriage, which means moving to a new school in a new town. The most tragic thing that can happen to kids is for their parents to get divorced. Kids can easily get adjust to a new school, not so easy to adjust to a divorce.


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ML,
Agreed on the point of the goal being to avoid the divorce. Also agree on the legal aspects, I was just wondering if that is something that can be done before separation as opposed to after.

In my case, my WW set the custody up as shared with 50/50 split - we have a 2-2-3 day rotation.

So if I were to move away as part of Plan B, this would be a very big challenge - I know of one "friend" who moved an hour and a quarter away (without traffic). She ended up driving her children on mornings that she had them to their school before going to work, and then picking them up and driving to her new location - so adding 2.5 hours plus (depending on traffic) of driving on days she was with her children. In that case she was the original wayward, and this was after the divorce. So they were leaving their home at around 6 am, and not getting back there until about 6pm.

But if the BS can file for separation and at the same time secure primary custody - including the ability to change school districts this might be a good thing. And a strong motivator for being in the drivers seat, instead of waiting for the WS to file.
Am I understanding this correctly?

Yes or no - I will end the TJ after this. It isn't fair to bphubbie.

Thank you.



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It is recommended that a husband consult with a lawyer before he does this. In some situations, the father would want to get primary custody and take the children with him. In others, he would need to get a visitation schedule that made sense for their living arrangements. For example, if they live 2 hours apart, a split rotation would not make sense. Rather, every/other weekend, etc.



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Originally Posted by Allan_Tweed
he ended up driving her children on mornings that she had them to their school before going to work, and then picking them up and driving to her new location - so adding 2.5 hours plus (depending on traffic) of driving on days she was with her children. In that case she was the original wayward, and this was after the divorce. So they were leaving their home at around 6 am, and not getting back there until about 6pm.

Most people wouldn't put their kids through this. crazy


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I agree,
Also, I found the "Men, do not leave your house" thread.
Started by you!
And in your first post there it is - do not leave unless it is to effect Plan B.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=143570&Number=1885627#Post1885627
Thank you.

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No worries Allan Tweed about the TJ, it was interesting.

My wife has decided that she is going to move out and stay with a mutual friend for a while. We all know where she will be spending most of her time. Being nasty I am looking forward to the realization that she has basically given up her life for OM and he hasn't had to give up anything for her. Once this hits it will be thrown at him in every argument they have.

Having her out of the house will help me clear my head and I can concentrate more on me and the kids. I haven't decided yet whether I'm going to continue with plan A once she's gone or go to plan B. When I do go to plan B it will be permanent, with a D thrown in for good measure, so is a big decision to make and I'm going to take my time making it. I am getting to the point that I don't know if I could ever trust her again and I don't think she has it in her to do the work that would be necessary to change that, even if she wanted to.

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Seems like a great chance to be awesome -be an awesome dad, present an awesome option to your WW, and be awesome to yourself.
It is totally your call on how long you remain in Plan A, and what happens when you go to Plan B.
I understand that in some cases the "jolt" of the BS moving to Plan B has brought the WS up short, and created some realizations, also I understand that one of the goals of going to Plan B is to do so before your Love Bank for her is empty - you do it when you still have at least a small positive or neutral balance. This protects what you have left so that if you decide to allow it, and the WS does come back you have something to work with (I hope I understood that correctly).
On the question of trust - did you read this:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8121_trust.html


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Well she has moved out. The official line is she's staying at our friends but this week she is with the OM and I think she will only be staying at our friends when she has our DD.

I'm going to stay in plan A for now, it should be easier with her not here all the time. Mainly concentrating on not love busting, asking about her day etc. I don't know what I want in regards to the M anymore but I feel if I can stay in plan A until WW and OM R fails I can make a decision then depending on her attitude. I can't file for D until we have been separated for 2 years anyway.

I know it's the fog but I can't understand being willing to give up your home, children, someone who loves you and you have a long history with, basically your whole life for OM.

Last edited by bphubbie; 11/25/17 09:56 PM.
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I would get legal protection now while she is in the fog so she doesn't harm you legally. For example, you could get full custody of your daughter NOW while she doesn't have a home. Your daughter very much needs your protection at this time. Her mother is reckless and irresponsible and could very well introduce her to dangerous situations. I would not allow your daughter to spend the nights with her.

What about your bank accounts? She should not have access to your bank account or any family money or credit lines. It's real important that you take steps now to protect yourself in every way. And now is a good time to do this because she is in the fog. She won't be that way when the gloss wears off the affair.


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And document everything Document Document Document


FWW/BW (me)
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2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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I've set up a meeting with a Lawyer in a couple of days,OMSTBXW works for a law firm so has helped with that.

Originally Posted by BrainHurts
And document everything Document Document Document

Thanks BrainHurts I've started a log of everything that happens.

This week as my wife has started a new job and is working early mornings there was no question that my daughter would not stay with me. My wife has plans to come round each night when me and daughter get home from work and have dinner with us. We spent a lot of time tonight just talking about how her day went at work and being pretty friendly to each other. Because of the bipolar I've had to get good at spotting signs for mood changes. Tonight I could see the changes around her eyes, they take on a more sunken look when she gets depressed. (While we were talking they lost that look.) If this continues her cheeks should follow and she will have an almost skeletal look, this will be when she truly is in a depression. (Good luck OM!). I don't know if this is unique to my wife but other BS's might want to look for these early signs of a depression as it may be a common sign.

My daughter really made my day today. At school they had to describe their family using a metaphor, she chose a bird nest and I'm the mud around it that holds the nest together because I hold the family together. She made me tear up with that one.

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How�s everything going? Did you see a lawyer?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Yes, I've been to the Lawyers. Child custody has to be worked out by the parents as the first step. You can't go straight to court here unless the other parent is trying to take the children out of the country or has caused harm to them. If the parents can't sort the custody between them then you have to go to mediation and the final step is court.

My wife came round to visit after work on Monday to Wednesday last week. We spent most of the time talking to each other, I asked about how her day went and kept asking questions as she explained things. She seemed to really want to talk to me, I wonder if OM has already started not caring as much. I think either OM is not meeting all her EN's and she wants me to meet some as well or she has no boundaries at all.

Thursday to Saturday things went downhill with her getting verbally aggressive towards me (we only saw each other for a few minutes). I just let it wash over me and not rise to it. Sunday was a different story. I finally had enough of her attitude and told her that she's in luck, I still love her but I don't want to be in a relationship with her anymore (she's been saying for a while we will never be together again). She took my daughter out for the day after that but when they got back her attitude had changed. She stood on the door step for a long time after our daughter had gone to bed, occasionally saying about leaving but not going. Then eventually she said she missed us being good and gave me a big, long hug. Then she left. This is the second time she has reacted like this the first was when I told her I didn't know if I could ever forgive her for what she has put me through. This was a couple of months ago and she stood in front of me looking like a pathetic little girl and tried to get me to say I forgave her. I know this is nothing big but I'm finding it interesting.

I actually don't know if I want to save the marriage (not sure if there's anything worth saving) but I'm trying to do the plan A stuff (need to stop losing my cool) and see what happens. If she and OM split up and she wants to come back I can make my decision then. We can't divorce until we have been living separately for 2 years so I'm not losing any time by doing this and I'm seeing it as a good way to work on myself and maybe see some results.

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