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Duplicate post on t&l's thread. Not funny enough to read twice. Don't say I didn't warn you!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Neak is in rehab right now, struggling with a difficult recovery to her unfortunate addiction. In other words, the internet has been down all afternoon and the onset of withdrawal was immediate, and so far, severe. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> What does she think people did for entertainment back in the Cretaceous Period, when I was a girl? Whatever it was, I certainly managed to get in enough trouble doing it, that's for sure! She will be back, she hopes, once Neakbro returns to the nest, and brings his Berkeley B.S. degree in Computer Science with him for a little analysis and repair. I hope she can hold out that long! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

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Neak:

Regarding FORGIVENESS, what do you think about Forever's take on this? This was taken from the BOLD LOVE discussion that we had a few months ago. I also bumped up that entire thread for you if you are interested.

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Re: Bold Love by Drs. Allender and Longman [Re: A.M.Martin]
#2831572 - Fri Oct 07 2005 06:22 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply




Quote:
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This is all well and good, Forever, but what are you saying, practically?

Are you saying that I should rush over and embrace XH?/WH? and OW, and tell them all is forgiven in a passionate recognition of God's love?


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AM Martin -let me end your confusion and put it as succinctly as I know how....without repentance there can BE no forgivenss of sin. You can still 'love the sinner' and not take vindictive action, can even to not hold a grudge against them, but forgiveness is only in response to repentance.

Hope that clears it up for you.

(It was GG who was arguing for forgiveness without repentance, and I was offering an opposing viewpoint)

--------------------
In Christlike love at all times.


If you are struggling or having a "bad day" - click here

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Re: Bold Love by Drs. Allender and Longman [Re: Formerly G.G.]
#2831581 - Fri Oct 07 2005 06:37 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply




Quote:
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If I am interpreting correctly what is being said then I should not, perhaps even cannot, forgive WW until she repents and asks me to do so.

Is that what I am hearing?


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Yes, that is exactly what you are hearing, at least from me.

God is the "model" of how and when to forgive. God commands us to forgive a brother in Christ IF HE REPENTS. The corollary to that is, "no repentance, no forgiveness."

To forgive without repentance is to cheapen and demean forgiveness. Christ died so that we would repent and receive forgiveness of sin. He does not forgive our sin without our first repenting, because to do so would be to "condone sin" as okay and NOT something that someone should repent of.

Christ forgave one thief but not the other. If forgiveness could be granted, and be effective, without any need for repudiating sin,why did Jesus only forgive one thief and why did Jesus have to die AT ALL to pay the "price" for sin if sin could simply be forgiven with NO CHANGED behavior being needed?

Forgiveness without repentance is "dog that won't hunt."

God bless.

--------------------


I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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Mimi,

Thanks for bumping the other thread. I will keep reading it, and let you know when I finish.

My comment on the above post, is that when Jesus asked forgiveness for the soldiers as they nailed Him to the cross, they were not repentant.

The verses referred to above make it clear that salvation can only be found after repentance. Those soldiers did not repent, at least not at that time, therefore it is reasonable to conclude that they were not saved at the time forgiveness was given on their behalf.

This limited forgiveness is not cheap, and it in no way replaces the need for full saving forgiveness, confession of sin, and being covered with the cleansing blood of Jesus. But Jesus made that request for a reason. He showed Himself willing to forgive us all, and not hold bitterness toward us for the pain we each have caused Him, and He opened a door that God was able to use in the lives of those rebellious, defiant men.

We need to offer this forgiveness for our own sakes. We do not offer it directly to those who have hurt us, we offer it to God. Reconciliation, whether between God and us, or man and us, can only take place after confession, forgiveness, and the forsaking of sin. But when we offer up to God a sweet, forgiving spirit, we receive a blessing even when no human-to-human reconciliation ever takes place.

Regardless, we all need that full divine forgiveness that only God can offer, that only comes from accepting the sacrifice of Christ, repenting, and turning away from our sins. To turn back into our sins after asking for forgiveness is to crucify Christ afresh, and put Him to open shame.

Meems, I'll let you know what I think when I finish the thread. It has been very interesting so far.


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
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Just sticking a little post-it note here for myself, the link to my job reference thread from yesterday, in case I ever need to refer to it.


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



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I've been so busy this week, but not accomplishing ANYTHING!!!!! It drives me crazy!

Tuesday I actually had a trip to town almost exactly like the hypothetical trip I described. I had the sudden appearance of a UTI, with the most severe symptoms <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I have ever had with one. They got me into the dr.'s at the last second & I am on my 3rd day of antibiotics now.

By the time I got done at Wal Mart I didn't have time to go to Safeway too, even though I badly needed potatoes, but that was about the only deviation from hypothet.

AJ & I had a nice talk today, to be continued later since he had to leave for work, about the reference request, among other things. He was quite startled by the whole thing, but relieved a bit when I told him that before I do anything irrevocable I am seeking legal advice from the attorney.

Mom really liked the letter, but was worried that with so much going on already, that it wouldn't hurt to ask a lawyer if there was even a small chance of her being able to take legal recourse if, for some reason, that is information that cannot legally be disclosed on a reference. I am quite sure it is fine, but better safe than sorry I guess.

I did ask a very kind out-of-state attorney, who said he thought it would be all right to send it, (though his first recommendation was to just ignore it), but said it would be best to check with a local attorney to be sure. We are still waiting for the call, and I am not stressing about it anymore, either way.

Side note: it was funny to me to read back over my first couple of posts about that, and see that they appeared fairly calm and coherent. No visible panic, anyway. I don't do well with surprises at all, but especially that kind of surprise. But I am fine now, and can even laugh about it. One of the questions was, "Have you ever known this person to steal something?"

I'm sure we can all think up a few pithy answers to THAT one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Eureka! I should have sent the whole package to Orchid for her to fill out, lol.

Got to go throw my bathroom rugs in the dryer (if you didn't already hear, don't ask <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />), and do a few things before I wear out and need a rest again.

*happy dance* I got a nap today, though. It's gonna be a great rest of the day. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



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Classic Dervish moment:

I just heard a little voice saying, "Hehwp, hehwp, hehwp," that's the closest I can come to a phonetic reproduction.

So I looked over and saw that Dervish DANGLING FROM THE TOP OF THE DOOR!!!!!

Being the kind, sympathetic mother I am, I told him, "You got up there, so you can get down." As of course he could all along, but wanted to get a reaction. (Fat chance.)

What next? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



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<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Gotta love those emoticons. I'm starting to feel better already.

Today is AJ's birthday, and she sent him a card. No return address and out-of-state postmark made me suspicious right off the bat, and he immediately gave it to me and told me to chuck it.

I have known? thought? felt? she would attempt C on his b-day, and had myself pretty well convinced I was ready for it. Yes, it probably would have been worse if I had not been mentally prepared.

Quote
AJ -

I hope things are going well for you.

Gargamel

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Reading between the lines it sounds more like this, "AJ, I hope you are realizing what a mistake you made in going back to your family, and in trying to repair the shambles you and I made out of your life, but if you change your mind and decide to once again become a lying cheater, please let me know cuz I'm still here." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Ok, I had to smile a little bit rereading that, so that is good. And I did manage to kiss AJ goodbye very nicely, even standing there with the card still in my hands. (I walked him out to the car when he was ready to leave, and got the mail all at the same time.)

I still have to run to town and get him his boring present. Since I know he won't look here, I can mention that it is a pair of blue shorts that is the lower half of his uniform at his new job, and he doesn't have any yet. And since I can't afford to get him a needful present AND a fun one, I am going with needful. (Besides, I already gave him a present that was both fun and free. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />)

I'm starting to ramble, and I really have to go. SMACK!!! Just trying to slap myself out of it, lol. I will channel all this nervous energy into errands and cleaning. Thanks, I will be fine. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Do you know if the OP ever grows a life?


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



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Do you know if the OP ever grows a life?

If the OP was capable of getting there own life, why would they be an OP? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread...


Formerly known as brokenbird

BH (Me) - 38
WW (Magpie) - 31
Married 2001 (Together 8 years)
DS - 13
DD - 5
EA/PA - 9/05-12/05
D-Day - 11/05

Second separation. Working on me.

If you remain in Me and My words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given to you.
John 15:7 (NIV)
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ROFL BB, that was funny. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I think you hit it on the head.

One last note on this before the regularly scheduled programming resumes. The preprinted portion of the card managed to be both innocuous, and offensively about sex, all at the same time. Mom nearly choked on her Chinese food when she read it.

On the front is one of those computer-altered googly-eyed dogs that has become popular. On the inside it says, "Getting older sure beats getting neutered. Happy birthday, guy!"

There seems to be (only perhaps) a slight vindictive undercurrent. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I couldn't decide whether to laugh or be offended, so I did both.

Now the card is in the garbage as it deserves, and as AJ requested it be. His exact words, in fact, were a terse "Chuck it!"

It's chucked.


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



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His birthday was wonderful. He was delighted with the shorts, thrilled with the lemonade, and oh, I guess he liked everyone else's presents, too.

After he went back on Mom's thread to thank all the nice people who told him happy birthday, he read back a ways just for fun, laughing out loud at the tractor story ("Did Mom really say that to Dad???"), and SS's misadventure with the toilet.

He did ask why I had blabbed the story about the Dervish and snuggling Uncoe Neakbro, but I reassured him that I was positive that - even without spelling it out - that everyone would know he didn't actually snuggle my brother, and was only kidding. I don't need to spell it out, right?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



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He did ask why I had blabbed the story about the Dervish and snuggling Uncoe Neakbro, but I reassured him that I was positive that - even without spelling it out - that everyone would know he didn't actually snuggle my brother, and was only kidding.

Well, you certainly had me worried...until you spelled it out! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I laughed because I thought the card was saying that, as far as she was concerned, he was doggone lucky to have been allowed to grow another year older, instead of getting what he actually deserved--a quick trip to the vet to be neutered. In fact, it could've been interpreted as an offer to neuter him herself. She DID work at animal control, after all.

t&l

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The other night we had another of those interesting little experiences involving adultery and TV. We made a little progress afterwards and did some talking, but by 3am had to just go to sleep and leave a lot unfinished.

He doesn't understand why I react so strongly to movies or TV, even if it's not something that 'seems' really bad, and yet can talk to friends about their similar problems and not suffer the same ill effects.

The ill effects to which he refers are not so much treating him badly, which as far as I know I never do, but a perceived coldness, when he says I am not the warm, caring person I usually am.

I tried to explain myself the best I could, but don't know if I succeeded. I said that first of all, there was a big difference in my reactions from talking about A's with someone, discussing strategy and recovery and such, vs seeing a strong visual image on TV that brought back all kinds of painful memories and imaginings.

I explained the best I could that I was not being cold to him that way, but that when it hurt me like that, I retreat to a safe distance (literally as well as figuratively) to try and pick up the pieces of myself enough to go on and not show my hurt on the outside.

It bothers him terribly when he sees that I am still wounded from this, and his immediate reaction is always, "Maybe I should just go then - you will heal faster if I'm not always around reminding you of this." And just about all the time it's easier to just handle things on my own than to try, again, to explain that I will have to go through the same garbage in the process of healing, but if he goes I will have nothing on the positive side, i.e. love and affection, to help me along. There would be nothing but me, the memories, and three messy-but-heartbroken little children. So far, that would be much worse.

We still didn't really talk much about what still bothers me and why, but by the time we were ready to fall asleep he told me that if it bothere me this much, that we needed to keep talking about it, even if it bothered him. Then he scooted over by me, saying rather apologetically that he wouldn't lie so close if I didn't want him to, but he had just gotten so used to me being there next to him. Of COURSE I didn't mind, silly him.

I can't help but feel sorry for him too, and not just me. It has to be very daunting to face the fact that you damaged the person you loved most, and damaged them so badly it will take them years to recover. In fact, at one point during this he said very sadly that he didn't think I would ever get over it.

I will never be the same, but I fully expect to get over it eventually. Someday the name Gargamel will call nothing immediate to mind, except maybe Barbie's little sister, or Dazednconfused, or the childrens' (by then former) teacher. Hey, a girl can hope! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

(And yet at the same time I will always have to look over my shoulder a little bit. She is the pop-up-in-five-or-ten-years type if I ever saw it. See above reference about the OP having a life, lol. It is a little scary that she will always be out there, somewhere.)

Well, I'd better get ready for church. The natives are much farther along in their preparations than I am, and I think GP went back to bed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Hope you all are having a super weekend!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



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Hmmmmm. I hadn't thought of that interpretation. I respectfully disagree, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />, but each person can choose the meaning they like best.

Maybe you could edit the workplace detail back out, at least in a day or two? Otherwise you will tempt me beyond bearing to blab even more, except oh wait, you just did ----- she used to work at a Pet Cemetery, bwaaahaaaahaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. There, now we both have to edit.


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



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PS Over time, I have found a few small advantages to being in possession of her employee file, and complete employment history. And yet I have managed to not take advantage of it. I am a good girl, yes I am. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


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~ English proverb



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We had another really good talk last night. Something prompted me to ask him if he was ok after getting the card, and he said he was but then proceeded to talk at length about a lot of stuff that went on during the A.

It was the kind of debriefing I had wanted right from the beginning, and was enlightening on so many levels. I learned so much that my preconceived notions didn't begin to guess at.

I will go into more detail another time if I am able, but the basic gist of it was that all that time I was trying to be the best that I could be (i.e. outdo her in everything), she was trying to outdo me as well, far more directly than I knew.

She would want to do something for him, and he would say, "My wife always does that for me." So she would say that she could do it better, and get rather bent out of shape when he still wanted me to do it instead. This would be mundane, everyday things, as well as the more, um, creative things some of you might be imagining. She did not like coming up short in the reckoning, even when it happened numerous times. Especially when it happened numerous times.

She did not know we were still having sex until part-way along. I had known, and mentioned here before, that she asked if we were still sleeping in the same bed, and was quite miffed that we were. But apparently the discussion about our sex life did not come up for several more weeks. Naturally she was very angry to find out that we weren't behaving "the way separated people are supposed to act", and his reply? "Of course I'm having sex with her. She's my WIFE!"

Also, toward the end he told her that doing anything sexual with her had been a mistake. Which probably stuck in her craw a bit, too. Truth hurts.

It was just so weird to get a glimpse into how it was, and how almost everything was about me. As well it should have been. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It was far from the lusty Utopia I had pictured.


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



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It was far from the lusty Utopia I had pictured.


Yep..for me too!

Especially during the Plan B time frame....


I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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Neak,
It's really fun to see your attitude change. Maybe it's not so much your attitude, as it is that you are not bothered by things that used to bother you. It used to feel like you were living in the midst of he11, but now it feels like you are looking at it from a distance and not personally involved.

From here it looks like you feel much better, and I sincerely hope so. Been hoping for that for a long time.

SS


I think sometimes about all the pain in the world. I hope we can ease that here, even if only a little bit.
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Hard not to think about the A as being great fun, full of
excitement and 24 hr sex, but when I think of WH's "typical"
nighttime routine (watching TV in bed, falling asleep soon
after taking bipolar meds, sleeping hard and snoring) it
makes me wonder.
Then again, maybe that was just with me (we had no SF for
for months before the A started due to WH "not being in the
mood", "tired", "congested", or having trouble with his
"performance" )
When I talked to OW back in October it sounded like that was their prime activity complete with "costumes" (for her) and according to the photos she sent me later, SF outdoors and in public places.(these are not pretty pictures) and
since OW even got pregnant, WH must have overcome his
"problems".

I like the description "lusty utopia". Would like to go there myself...
Slammed

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Bothered considerably less, anyway, and I'll settle for that for now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Slammed, it says something about her that she has to utilize so many costumes and wild locations to keep his attention off of you. I mean, the occasional dress-up or impromtu might be fun to spice things up, but if you do too much of it, even the most creative stunts will become boring after time.

A child can be entertained by the circus for a while, but after so many days they will start to pick their nose when the clowns come out.


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



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Another funny/interesting thing from the conversation was the vastly differing ideas of housing situations. Some I knew, some I did not.

Her idea: You can come move in with ME!

His idea: No, I will just rent my own house.

Her idea: Is it my ex-boyfriend and his pregnant girlfriend? I'll ask them to move out.

His idea: No, I will just rent my own house.

Her idea: How nice! I will pay your deposits and first few months of rent today, and then just move in with you.

His idea: No, I will pay my own rent. Plus, you can't live with me because I want my wife and children to be able to come over any time they want, and be comfortable.

Her idea: *steam begins leaching from her ears* I must be patient for a while. Surely he will get over her eventually...

It really makes me happy to get a glimpse of how hard she tried to be me, and it still wasn't good enough. Not that I have never in all this been tempted to feel like last week's leftovers, but that is something I seem to be past. I am well aware of my own worth (hopefully not too aware <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />), and she knew it too, far better than he did at the time.

Another thing that was very nice, and shows progress on his part, was when he told me that she fully blames me for the business failing - that I wasn't billing properly or managing it properly.

I very gently said that I billed promptly, always within a day or two of the completion of each week, and that had nothing to do with it. Even more gently, I said that on more than one occasion, the VP and I had both expressed our concerns to him about the growing unpaid debt by our main client, but that he had been too wrapped up in his own concerns to really listen to us.

And - for the first time ever - there were no excuses, no attempts to cast blame back on us, nothing about how it hadn't been his fault at all, it was just, "I know."

***HAPPY DANCE***

So of course I did the big thing and dropped the subject, not even trying to rub it in a little, or ask him to repeat himself several times. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Small alien update: I saw her again Thursday, when I went for my doctor's appointment. I expected to see her, parked in front of her house as I zoomed past, but no, she was headed down the direction I had just come from.

All I had to do was go in a cup and I was on my way back home again. AJ was reassuringly green when I said she was headed down the hill, and I had no idea where she was now, so he had better be careful since he was leaving right then for work. Poor guy, the way of the transgressor is hard, long after the transgressions are over.

Her way can't be that easy, either. If she saw me, and I drove across right in front of her, she had to have wondered why I was going up by her house. And her lonely birthday yesterday (with Al K. Hall as her only companion) couldn't have been that much fun, as well.

I'm not perfectly noble. Though I feel a few twinges of sympathy, mostly I'm just hugely delighted that she was alone, and that my husband is mine again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

As much as I wouldn't want my kids to have been around her, I would love to see what the two of them looked like after having the Dervish for a couple of days. I ought to bottle him as an anti-affair unguent, free to all.

If SS was like him, I would like to talk to his mother and find out how she did it, but she probably can't string whole sentences together anymore. I barely can now, and I've only had him (the Dervish, not SS) for 5 years. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well, it's time to serve el suppero. We are having teriyaki oven BBQ-d potatoes w/onion and similarly BBQ-d veggie steaks. Mmmmmmmmmmm.

Sorry, Mom, I just looked at the clock and saw that it's too late for you to come for supper, unless you're off tonight. Well, you're invited anyway, even if you can't make it.


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



Neak's Story
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