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Well, I don't really care one way or another if he talks to her ... its just that she always contacts him (not vice versa) and puts him in a foul mood. She divorced OM, and H told me that he moved across the country. H is welcome to check up on me, but H also feels confident that I haven't been in contact with xOM (he told me this just today). H has been assured by me that he can do whatever he needs to for snooping on me.

I have certainly accepted that she will forever hate me and never forgive me. I have to live with that. But I don't have to live with the harassment that she puts along with that.

H hasn't had a chance to look for his own IC. I wondered if I should help him with this? I used to always do these types of things for him, but I don't want to overstep my bounds.

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Well, the solution to the text messages would seem to be a quick change to another phone number or even a new provider. POJA that with your husband?

I'd shy away from selecting an IC for WH. However, how about you two climbing up on the couch one afternoon and going through some prospects together?

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H doesn't want me to change my number. I called my atty. and sent her a cease & desist notice. Hopefully she won't contact me again. If so, H & I will have to POJA what to do next. I don't want to do anything else to upset her, but the contact has to stop. H agrees.

H is out of town again and I am going to help with his IC search by doing some preliminary searching ... see if its covered by ins., someone who will do phone counseling, fees, etc. Then he will make a choice, or choose someone entirely different. I wish he could go to my IC - she's great and he would love her approach!

It is so nice to feel involved in his life again! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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Okay, but please be careful with this. I think it has the potential to come off the wrong way to him if you aren't very, very cautious. Please keep it firmly fixed in your mind that you're only helping your husband find an IC. I'd go so far as to ask him to define the parameters of the search. Whether he feels he could better connect with a man or woman, for instance. Is age an issue? Is it all right with him if you look only for those who are pro-marriage? Etc., etc.

What happened to the SH session you were planning?

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I hadn't thought about asking him for his parameters ... what a great suggestion! I will definitely do this.

As far as MC/SH goes - he wants to wait on this. I would really like to start ASAP, but I have to honor his wishes. He wants to go to IC for a bit first. (I think he's still trying to figure out whether or not he wants to stay married to me.)

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This morning I had a text message from H last night (he's out of town) saying that he was with xOM ... My stomach dropped! I can't believe that I didn't wake up to be there for him when he sent it. I am so upset with myself. I hate that xOM puts himself in my H's face whenever he gets the chance. What an a**hole!

I sent him a response this morning letting him know that I was sorry I didn't hear the phone last night and that I was so sorry he had to be in the same room as that man. I hope that H is doing alright this morning ...

Any suggestions on how I can be there for him when he calls?

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TFC

I hope this does not trigger anything. I guess it depends on the interaction between the two. I suspect this would be a paingful trigger so a little compassion from you might be in order.

Is there any way he can cut down the travel? I see this being the biggest issue in the M. My travel almost killed my M - it was one of the underlying causes for my WW. Not sure Marriott points and Advantage miles was ever worth it now looking back.


Me:52
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Married: 32 yrs
2 Sons (29 & 23)
1 Dtr (20)
1 GDtr (2.5) precious little girl
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His job absolutely requires travel, there is no way around it. He has worked so hard to get where he is and he is so great at what he does - I won't ask him to change jobs, I don't want to. I married him knowing that he would travel a great deal.

I just talked to H ... he seems a little down, understandable. And he only got 3 hours of sleep. To top it off, the a**hole saw that my H is going to be in the same state again tonight, so he told H he was going to drive the 3 hours to see H. Why doesn't H tell him to f*** off? I think it is really mean of the jerk to keep doing this! And H was upset that when he talked to xOMxW yesterday, she didn't tell him that xOM would be in the same city as H. He felt this was mean on her part.

I really want to show him that I am on his team for the rest of our lives. I really want to rid our lives of these 2 people. I believe that they are trying to cause problems in our M because they chose to D.

What else can I do to show H that I will take a stand for this M no matter what? I want him to see that no matter how tough things get, I will be a devoted and faithful wife!

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XOM finds your husband if he's in the same state? I'm trying to envision someone finding a traveler in Texas, or even in one city. How is that done?

Anyway, an easy, nonconfrontational solution is for your husband to have a chat with hotel security and make sure that individual is not allowed inside. Move to a different motel, pick up a different rental car, change one's schedule, etc. -- whatever it takes. If that doesn't work, call the police. Additionally, one can use the court system.

Support your husband in all of this...make sure he sees you're more than angry with XOM. Your husband can make it very uncomfortable for the XOM to drive the distance just to vent. Can you motivate your husband to get proactive about this?

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H's job is very public ... its easy to find where he is that day, but not necessarily where he is staying. And xOM wants to hang out & be friends again, but its just mean!

How do I motivate without LBing? I'm afraid it would come across as a DJ ... he might think that I don't believe he's tough enough or something.

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Your husband needs to tell XOM to go play in traffic. I'm sorry, but I don't know why it's any more complicated than that. Is something else going on?

Maybe if you see an opening, you can just tell your husband something along the lines of the playing in traffic thing.

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Nothing more to it than H is generally nice to everyone, including those he hates. If you think its appropriate to let him know that I hope H tells XOM to play in traffic (good one, btw) or take a long walk off a short cliff, I am more than happy to do so.

I only was concerned about telling him what I think he should do being a Lb somehow. I know that after his W has an A, a BH can feel less manly and so I didn't want H to think that I thought that he didn't have a pair of his own. Does that make any sense?

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Why would you think it would be an LB for you to sympathize with the emotional turmoil your husband goes through meeting or being confronted with the XOM? Love Busters are defined as selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, angry outbursts, annoying habits, independent behavior, and dishonesty. I don’t see any of that in you saying something disrespectful of the XOM and letting your husband know whatever he does about the unwanted contact is okay with you.

What you say makes sense, and I know you must be careful at all time to not appear manipulative. But I don’t think he’d necessarily read it that way. I sure wouldn’t. I believe if he were to hear you reinforce your (previously stated?) dislike of the XOM and hear you wonder why XOM is bothering your husband, I think it would tend to encourage your husband to think of you two as a couple – us against them, as it were. I’m sure you can find the words to get your idea on this across to him.

You could even reinforce the whole thing later, depositing even more in his love bank. If he suggests he might do something to cut off the contact, you can let your husband know you know you can rely on his judgment…you might even be able to (honestly) cheer him on in what he intends to do. If things go well in the conversation, perhaps you could even restate the idea you feel you both need XOM out of your lives permanently.

What do you think of all this?

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Perfect! And it went well ... I talked to him just a bit ago. I told him that I hoped certain people didn't show up tonight. He agreed. Then I took that opportunity to tell him that if XOM showed up to tell him to take a long walk off a short cliff. That gave H a chuckle! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Then, he said something to me that he hasn't said in a loooooong time: "I miss you"! *jumping up and down for joy*

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Excellent! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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H has been back in town for a couple of days before going on a long trip. I was hoping that we would be feeling closer than ever, but instead he keeps reminding me that we are "just friends" and I am to have no expectations of him. I haven't really tried to have expectations, but he has set a pattern of making an effort at the M for the last few weeks, so I was thinking that was the path we were headed down. So, maybe recovery isn't in our future?

He brought up that a while ago we had discussed re-evaluating things after school was out. This was actually not the agreement. At the time, he was dead-set on D, so I asked if he would just wait until after school was out to file the papers. Then, lately it hasn't seemed that we were going to get a D. But now, he says he is just waiting until after school is out to decide what is next for us.

Basically, I feel like he is in full control of our recovery - that it is at his pace and his discretion. Like if he feels like working on the M today, then we should. But if he doesn't, then we're "just friends". We really need to get back to SH for MC, but he won't agree to it yet.

I want for us to just go all-in on recovery, but he doesn't. I don't think it is healthy for us to put off recovery much longer ... what can I do to help things along? Or do I just sit back and wait while Plan A-ing until school is out?

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Has he hit a plateau or is some other dynamic at play here? I agree he may be getting comfortable in a new attitude, but is this the first sign of it? Are there any other red flags?

It does happen though. It’s that “path of least resistance” thing we humans fall prey to so often. If things are going along (apparently very smoothly), folks are inclined to protect that status and not upset the apple cart. Most people will “go along to get along” for a long, long time if they’re not jarred out of that behavioral pattern.

You’re right, TFC, in many ways the WS (unfortunately) IS in complete charge of the recovery and it proceeds on the WS's pace...up to a point.

Question: What is the significance of school being out and why would that have any bearing on discussing the relationship? Is there any chance of a hidden agenda there?

Hmmmmmm

Would you remind the forum how long you've been in Plan A, TFC.

It may be about time you set some boundaries in your relationship, like, "If I wanted a friend, I’d go chat with the counter waitress down at IHOP," or something like that. You don't have to accept rewritten history either. If he's incorrect about that agreement, you can find a courteous way to give him your side. It’s no LB to be forthright that you are in this for the marriage and not a friendship, even one with benefits.

You can see where this might be heading, right? If he can't get off the dime (I seem to be thinking in clichés today, don't I?) someday relatively soon, it may be necessary to start a Plan B, TFC. Dr. Harley has said Plan A works on its own only about 15% of the time. That means most recoveries have to go to Plan B, unfortunate as that is.

Now, filter all the above through your personal knowledge of your husband and his thought patterns. Is he just in a mood? Did something he saw on TV spark something in his mind and he needs to show some independence or something like that?

Pick your battles carefully, TFC. If he's just going through one of the low points in the roller coaster ride, that's one thing. If he's becoming entrenched in a new, independent lifestyle, that's a horse of a different color. Can you do a little clinical, detached evaluation for us? Make sure this is a bump, not a mountain, okay?

LH

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Quote
Has he hit a plateau or is some other dynamic at play here? I agree he may be getting comfortable in a new attitude, but is this the first sign of it? Are there any other red flags?

It does happen though. It’s that “path of least resistance” thing we humans fall prey to so often. If things are going along (apparently very smoothly), folks are inclined to protect that status and not upset the apple cart. Most people will “go along to get along” for a long, long time if they’re not jarred out of that behavioral pattern.

IMO, this isn't him "getting comfortable" ... this is taking steps backward. Last week, things were great. Then this week, things aren't. I understand that there is some level of roller-coaster riding during recovery, but the highs are really high and the lows are really low. Can't there be a way to have a little bit smoother ride? Not upsetting the apple cart would be a real joy right now. The only red flags are: hiding the cell phone again, and complaining that I “made” him quit talking to certain people.

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You’re right, TFC, in many ways the WS (unfortunately) IS in complete charge of the recovery and it proceeds on the WS's pace...up to a point.

This point you speak of, is this my “straw that broke the camel’s back”? He has been in complete control of this relationship since my D-Day. And he is completely unapologetic about his EA – I think he is in denial that it even was an EA! He states that “it was nothing compared to what you did” … and that is supposed to make it ok?

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Question: What is the significance of school being out and why would that have any bearing on discussing the relationship? Is there any chance of a hidden agenda there?

We had agreed not to get the D until school was out for a couple of reasons. Mainly because we didn’t want DD to go through a D during the last months of school. We thought it would be easier on all of us if we just waited. And I wanted a little extra time to work on the M.

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Would you remind the forum how long you've been in Plan A, TFC.

Well, I was using the Plan A techniques immediately after my D-Day (12/26/06) to show my BH that I was willing to do whatever it took to save the M and improve my self. However, I had suspicions of his A in March and beefed up my Plan A immediately.

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It may be about time you set some boundaries in your relationship, like, "If I wanted a friend, I’d go chat with the counter waitress down at IHOP," or something like that. You don't have to accept rewritten history either. If he's incorrect about that agreement, you can find a courteous way to give him your side. It’s no LB to be forthright that you are in this for the marriage and not a friendship, even one with benefits.

You can see where this might be heading, right? If he can't get off the dime (I seem to be thinking in clichés today, don't I?) someday relatively soon, it may be necessary to start a Plan B, TFC. Dr. Harley has said Plan A works on its own only about 15% of the time. That means most recoveries have to go to Plan B, unfortunate as that is.

I have told him that I am certainly wanting our friendship to improve – but only as part of our M. I really don’t want to head into Plan B, but I am beginning to wonder if I should sometime soon. I told him today that his choice to separate himself from inappropriate “friendships” was his choice, not mine. I simply set the boundary that I was unwilling to be in a M where my H was having those types of friendships. And in making the choice to end those “friendships”, I understood that to mean that he would be willing to consider a future with me. (Maybe I shouldn’t have assumed that?)

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Now, filter all the above through your personal knowledge of your husband and his thought patterns. Is he just in a mood? Did something he saw on TV spark something in his mind and he needs to show some independence or something like that?

My H always feels the need to express his independence. We actually discussed this earlier today! He has always been a sort-of rebel … tell him not to do something and he’ll do it just to show that he is in control. He likes to be able to do what he wants, when he wants without any repercussions. I am not making DJs here – this is honesty, and he is fully aware that this is his personality. But I want a healthy recovery – a recovery where we team up to forge through this doo-doo together, not separately.

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Pick your battles carefully, TFC. If he's just going through one of the low points in the roller coaster ride, that's one thing. If he's becoming entrenched in a new, independent lifestyle, that's a horse of a different color. Can you do a little clinical, detached evaluation for us? Make sure this is a bump, not a mountain, okay?

LH

I hope that this was detached enough … it can be very difficult for me to pull only from fact and not emotion too. I must say that I feel this is a pothole in our road to recovery.

So, my 2 main issues are:

1. He seems to have no remorse for his A, has not apologized for it, feels he was entitled to it, and still lies about the events during it.
2. He has not yet made a choice on whether he wants to work on the M or not.

While I realize that I have no control over what he thinks, decides, or does I don’t know how to think about this in terms of boundaries for me … I’m not sure what boundaries to set anymore. I completely blew last set of boundaries when he ended his A and seemed to be working on the M. Now that this may not be the case, I need to set new ones. The friendship boundary is a good one, but how do I enforce it? What other boundaries can I set to protect myself and my love for him?

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Uh oh. Hiding the phone again, coupled with the abrupt attitude change means he could be in contact with OW again. Darn it.

Well nuts. I thought things were going so well. You two seemed to be connecting on a lot of different things but now it seems that was a false recovery. He's backsliding. I'm inclined to say that may be an indication you'll have to go into Plan B sometime soon. Dr. Harley uses a rule of thumb of 3 months of Plan A by women, and 6 months done by men. In one sense, you're well over the average for a woman to use Plan A. In another, you may want to keep trying for a while longer, if you can.

If there's no progress being made, if indeed he's retrogressing, then it may be time to start seriously planning a good Plan B. Have you secured your finances, spoken to an attorney if filing a writ for legal separation is necessary, found an intermediary where you can pass over custody if your DD will be spending part of her time out of your home and in his?

I think you have a little while to look over your Plan B while you evaluate where your WH is going but, unfortunately, I also think you're probably going to have to pull the trigger on a dark Plan B for the good work you did in Plan A to have any effect.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

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There has been no evidence of contact with OW, however there was a 15 min cell phone conversation with the out-of-town chick yesterday that he didn't tell me about. I had told him that I was fine with their friendship if and only if she was aware that he was working on our relationship and he informed me about contact with her. He had informed me last week of 2 text messages between them and even saved them in his phone for my viewing if I deemed it necessary. But I just checked the phone logs, and there it was ... a conversation that was rather lengthy (IMO) and I wasn't told about.

I can certainly continue Plan A a bit longer, but without a commitment from him soon I will be forced into Plan B.

I have seen an attorney. When I asked about legal separation, I was told that it was not necessary nor was it preferable in his opinion. I already have a separate bank account set up and can re-arrange any other finances quickly. An intermediary will be simple as well - both our parents and sisters will be willing to help there. As far as one of us moving out, he won't do it. I am being stubborn on this topic because I think that it is unfair for DD to move from her home and see her parents separate. But if I have to, I suppose I will move.

What do you think about his denial and lack of remorse for his A?

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