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Those are all valid points you can bring up. Some of them appear to be from a time previous to D-day # 1, but since they haven't been resolved, they're still in play. Print out a list of those you agree with and have them in your mind when you open the discussion. That his activities are beginning to affect your daughter is particularly distressing.

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Of course I come home today and he says he's arranged our Disney tix ... like that's supposed to make life all good! They aren't definite though, and he rarely follows through. I will end up making all the arrangements if we go.

He was joking around tonight about one of my friends wanting him (def a joke) ... and I said "yeah - her and about 10 other girls". He came back with "girls don't really talk to me" and I told him that judging from previous phone bills that wasn't the case. Then he played it off saying "I have friends, but that's all" ... and I replied letting him know that they weren't appropriate friends the wife doesn't know about them. He then made a snide remark about my A and how I screw my friends ... I just walked off.

After that he proceeded to tell me that he missed me today - but it was REAL sarcastic. I am just so sick of all this. He's going to be home tomorrow night. Looks like I'll confront him then ...

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Yeah, that was predictable. Heck, even I saw it coming.

Now, I suggest you let it drop for tonight. Put the whole thing out of your mind as best you can. When you feel the thoughts beginning to intrude, deliberately turn your mind to something else, okay? Take the evening off like you did all of yesterday. Hug your daughter, get a good night's sleep, and reengage tomorrow.

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LOL - I'll try. But I thought about writing him a letter prefacing our discussion-to-be (tomorrow night). Even if I don't give it to him, at least I'll have all my thoughts collected beforehand. Whaddya think?

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Putting things down "on paper" is an excellent way of putting your thoughts in order. Just don't let things consume you tonight, okay?

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Thanks, LH! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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De nada. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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TFC...if I were in your shoes, I would do a shout out to Pep, ML, BK, BopP, Mr & Mrs W... etc... you can do that on your topic line. While LH may be providing you with support (at this point I do not know as I am ignoring him) those that I mentioned are the best at offering you sound advice. LH had what I would consider a bit of a meltdown last week and put many, many long time vets here that are well respected on ignore. Personally, I think that you should be getting advice from more than one source here.

I don't feel like I want to battle with LH or you regarding your situation. Perhaps it will be better for you to get the input of vets here that have helped countless numbers of people.

Good luck.

MEDC

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As you mentioned before, the vets don't come to my thread, so I've been hesitant to ask for more help and have been grateful for the help I've received from LH, Orchid, Strivn, and anyone else I've left out.

I can't Plan A anymore ... my love bank is draining with all his wayward behavior. I know that you would like to see me be more patient, but I don't know if I have it in me.

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ASK the vets for help and they will help.

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If your love bank is running low, it is probably time to go to Plan B. I guarantee that when you run out of love and respect it is GONE. And it can happen very suddenly.

I would get all my ducks in a row, logistically and financially and get a Plan B letter ready.

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My 2 cents.
Sit your H down. Communicate your wishes clearly and consisely. Let him know that while both of you have made mistakes that have brought you to this point that there must be change NOW. Let him know that although you cannot force him to change, that you will enforce your own personal boundaries.
Since you have issue with being a bit controlling, I would run those boundaries by the board first. We can ehlp you edit out some of your "tendancies."
Let him know that you love him, that he is safe with you now, that you want to work on repairing all the damage that has been done to your relationship.
Too much time is passing with no real change. I know patience is not your strong suit... so, a plan is in order to communicate your boundaries. It would be good if you can get him to come here and post. He most certainly has a lot of residual hurt and anger over your A... and I know he has lashed out at you with his behaviors. But I think he loves you and wants this to work... I just don't think he feels safe and I know his self esteem has taken a huge hit.

So, before going to plan B make sure you have communicated exactly what you want and what you are willing to do to get there. Be ready to go dark... and DO NOT USE YOUR DAUGHTER as a weapon against him... he needs to see her regularly (I only say this because a lot of women pull this stunt).

So... TFC, what's the plan for right now?

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I don't want to Plan B ... but I'm concerned that giving him "options" doesn't hold water with him b/c I've always backed down.

I agree that I should sit him down and explain my expectations.

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He most certainly has a lot of residual hurt and anger over your A... and I know he has lashed out at you with his behaviors. But I think he loves you and wants this to work... I just don't think he feels safe and I know his self esteem has taken a huge hit.

I agree with this as well. I now know somewhat how he feels - the whole city is talking about me (or so it seems) and I don't even feel like I can leave my house! But I want this to work.

I understand your warning about using DD as a weapon. I have made an agreement with myself to NEVER let her suffer more than she has to by doing this. He is still her father and she doesn't deserve to not have her Daddy! I never want to be the woman that uses her child as a bargaining chip.

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I left you a note on the other thread. If you would like, your H can post to me or even email me. I have been betrayed so most likely know what he is going through. He needs someone to talk sense to him right now. BK or Plank come to mind as others that might interact directly with your H. Both of them are more even tempered and eloquent than me.

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I don't think that I can get him to come here ... but I'll try. Thanks!

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We had a tiff last night. He called on his way home and said he sensed something in my voice. I let him know that I was just relaxed after having had a glass of wine. He said that I had been standoffish all day (maybe I was). I said that nothing was wrong. He went on to say that he’s really been trying and it seemed to him like I’ve given up, I told him I haven’t. Then he said: “I hope that for DD’s sake you’ll give this M a try”. I informed him that I HAVE been trying, but its hard to believe this M is going anywhere with him acting like he’s single. He then said that I make assumptions by my snooping and that pisses him off. How can he trust me again if I keep on snooping? I asked how I was supposed to trust him? He claims its not about me trusting him, but about him trusting me. I claim that its about us BOTH trusting EACH OTHER. He said that I have unrealistic expectations for M. I told him that I didn't think they were at all, but we should probably discuss them. He said that I should just be grateful that he's still home, that he didn't kick me out and that he's at least trying to be my friend. I told him that I was grateful that he was home, but he doesn't seem to be even a very good friend right now. He told me that it wasn't about him being my friend - that it was about him at least seeing IF we could be friends before deciding IF we can be married. I told him that we ALREADY ARE married and it was time to start acting like it. He ignored me and followed with “you’re drinking again, you quit going to IC … this is just done.” (I had 2 glasses of wine last night for the first time in weeks. I rarely drink. And my therapist was booked up and I was busy with DD, so its been a couple of weeks but I have all my June appts scheduled.) I told him I wasn’t talking about this anymore and hung up.

So I LB’d like crazy last night. Bad way to handle things! This morning I told him that I felt things had gotten out of hand last night and that I was sorry. He just said “Ok thanks.” I need to make up for it today with GRACE and CONFIDENCE (as JL said).

P.S. H is planning a B-day Bash for himself next month ... and apparently I'm the ONLY person in the city not invited thus far. Oh well ...

Last edited by time_for_change; 06/05/07 11:01 AM.
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TFC, I think you kind of lost your way last night and this morning.

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"You're drinking again, you quit going to IC..."

Gaslight Translation: "You're a drunk and drunks are repulsive. You're crazy and obviously incapable of running your own life. Who are you to judge me?"


********

TFC, please read over what you've written this morning. Can you analyze that script and tell us how many instances of gaslighting and other manipulative techniques are in those few lines?

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Quote
Gaslight Translation: "You're a drunk and drunks are repulsive. You're crazy and obviously incapable of running your own life. Who are you to judge me?"

I think it was more like "You're drinking again? What? There's only room for 1 drunk in this M and that's ME!" (Wait, that a DJ isn't it?)

Manipulative and/or Gaslighting Comments:

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“I hope that for DD’s sake you’ll give this M a try”.

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He then said that I make assumptions by my snooping and that pisses him off. How can he trust me again if I keep on snooping?

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He claims its not about me trusting him, but about him trusting me.

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He said that I have unrealistic expectations for M.

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He ignored me and followed with “you’re drinking again, you quit going to IC … this is just done.”

Did I catch them all?

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Here are some that I saw:

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He said that I have unrealistic expectations for M.


Translation: "Listen, I LIKE living single. Who are you to say I should start pulling my own weight in this marriage?"


********
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…He then said that I make assumptions by my snooping and that pisses him off. How can he trust me again if I keep on snooping?…

Translation: "I'm really tired of you finding out about my girlfriends. That's really aggravating. Would you PLEASE leave me alone so I can have inappropriate relationships with all the pretty girls I meet?"


********
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He said that I should just be grateful that he's still home, that he didn't kick me out and that he's at least trying to be my friend.

Translation: Not much to translate; he’s saying it clearly. "Back off, TFC. I'm in charge here and you're just lucky you get anything from me. You don’t get to decide what you want out of this marriage and you’ll take what I think you deserve."


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...he doesn't seem to be even a very good friend right now.

Isn't “being a friend” an old line of his? Wasn't an earlier discussion to the effect that if you wanted friends, you could go down to the IHOP and sit at the counter to chat with the waitress there?


********
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...said I was sorry. He just said “Ok thanks.”

Translation: "Now that you're back in your place, I can relax for a while.

********

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H is planning a B-day Bash for himself next month ... and apparently I'm the ONLY person in the city not invited thus far. Oh well ...

If you buy into his idea that you're a second-class citizen, I guess this is okay. Otherwise it's one of the most incredible insults I’ve ever seen a man slap a woman with.


********

This is just my take on things, TFC, and I'm not perfect in my analysis by any stretch of the imagination.

I know I wasn’t there. I didn’t hear every word that was spoken, but I’d have to say that argument didn't go well. I think he probably reduced you to tears (or nearly so) and he didn’t apologize for any of it. I think you forgot to look for gaslighting and disrespectful judgments from him. Whether you LB’d him or not, and I didn’t see any big ones in your message, he darn sure LB’d you. You didn’t enforce your boundaries and you let him lead the conversation down the path he wanted to go.

Worst of all, he deflected you from D-day #2. The conversation is now about whether he'll be your friend or not...instead of explaining what he's been doing and when he's going to start working toward a reconciliation.

Okay, that was last night. Today is today. Pick yourself up and get back in the game. I think you can put that modified Plan A and 180 back into action, lady.

Side Note: I think it’s useful every now and then to look at the big picture. Can you provide a synopsis for us, telling us what’s been happening for the past few months, lady? For instance, you’ve been in Plan A for how long? Seems to me like you’ve been there for about six months, though consciously for only about the last two or three, but still for a considerable time now. What are the major points of your Plan A? How has your WH reacted in that time?

TFC, I don’t think anyone out here will suggest you need to stay in this limbo for eternity, so I still believe you need to dust off that Plan B information and update it. You don’t need to make a decision on it today. You probably should not make any decisions today. But remember Dr. Harley himself has said Plan A brings the WS back to the marriage only about 15% of the time. In all other cases, a Plan B is necessary.

TFC, I sincerely believe you can recover this marriage. But…I don’t think you can do it with soft words, meaningful glances, and gentle caresses. I think the conversation last night, and his, “Okay, thanks…” should be an eye-opener about where his head is right now. Respectfully, I think he’ll eat up all the soft words, etc., and it will reinforce his cake-eating. Instead, he reacted more positively when you stood up for yourself. Remember what he said about that a couple weeks ago?

Have you told your best friend about what your WH said last night and the incident this morning?

Hang in there, TFC. You’ll get through this. Last night will just be a fading memory when you get to the other side of this tragedy.

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I wasn't in tears last night, but I am today ... I am more confused than ever!

Breakdown:
DDay 12/26/06 - NC in place & kept
Jan 2007 - BH starts going out all the time, spending lots of money, making new (questionable)friends, job has him traveling more & more
March 1 - H begins A with OW - in town, but doesn't come home after going out
H doesn't come home 7 days in March that he is in town.
March 6 - we had MC with SH, H was texting OW during the session
March 17 - 6 yr anniversary - H spent it with OW
March 22-30 - H traveling for work - gathers numerous women's phone numbers, uses them a plenty, and has to mail 1 girl's jewelry back to her upon his arrival home
March 31 - I find nasty pics in his car from last trip - expose A and all behavior to family & friends
April 1 - Confront H about all the women, pictures, and OW - H agrees to straighten up
April 2-7 - I take DD to beach, H travels for work ... during this week he lied about talking to OW + others, still picked up new phone numbers
April 9 - found out H had been spending the night with OW
April 10 - confronted H, asked him to leave ... explained that when he found out about my A, I ended it - I expect the same, H agrees to end it
April 11 - H tells me he's ended it with OW
April 12 - H lied - still in contact with OW, told H I'd found an apartment for him and will be placing a deposit on it during my lunch time ... H agrees to really end things with OW, but won't do it in front of me. H ends A.
April 18 - OW sends H email miss him, H doesn't respond but never told me about it either
April 28 - H lies about what he did after work out of town, I find out next day and confront
May 1 - H runs into XOM out of town, but remains fairly calm
May 5 - H is in town, I find out he's telling girls at the bar that he is getting a D
May 6-12 - H travels to CA, doesn't answer any calls or TMs the whole trip, but returns calls later, tells me he's surprising me for Mother's day by coming home and then holds it over my head all week
May 13 - H acts like a jerk all day, finally acts nice in the evening and we talked - seems like things are getting better again

I can't handle any more right now ... we do good for a week or so, but the whole time he just keeps on doing whatever he wants. We only get better b/c I cut back on snooping when we're getting along. Then I decide to check, and lo and behold! He's been talking to all these girls all along, and I had no clue! So, he acts more and more each day like he wants to work it out and then does/says something that takes it back to zero.

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