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Dino69 Offline OP
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I'd like to think she wants to see me too Snuggle. I have alot of work to do in choosing to have healthy thinking patterns. I'm not doing so well in that arena so any help you have for me would be much appreciated.

We're having lunch again today. I see it as a good thing although we're having to do some business stuff also. I love spending my time with her, I do. I need to work on the cup half-full thing. My feelings of loneliness and abandonment seem to rule over me. I'm working on moving from the pessimism to the optimism side but I have trouble seeing the brighter side of things. When I write them down it seems so clear but physical evidence seems to point the other direction. I don't want to ruin things. I just can't seem to shake the rejection. More and more I'm seeing affection as my most important emotional need and she is unwilling to fill that need right now.

I may be mistaken Snuggle, but from my perspective, her A is the last of our problems right now. I think we've both come to realize that it was only a byproduct of something that had gone sour already. Not that I'm discounting it and we will have to deal with it some time. But for now, just getting to a point that we are both on the same page for saving our marriage is the first priority. Unfortunately, we're not at the same crossroad quite yet. She's still dealing with her own issues and I believe our marriage is down the line a bit. Our marriage is my first priroty and that's whats causing all the stress from my standpoint. I'm trying not to let anything spoil my love for her. I think that if I can weather the storm, we may have a chance but I'm really having a hard time.

I'm still on the prowl for something that will change my outlook. I know it's all inside but I still haven't found my magic niche yet. I'm still trying, things are going well I suppose but I can't seem to allow myself to enjoy the little things. Day by day.

Thanks again Snuggle, you've been a lighthouse in a terrible storm for me.


FWH/BS (me)42, FBS/WW 39, married 18 yrs, WW A discovered 3/03/2008, my A discovered 06/2003
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You're a sweetheart Dino. I've got the easy job of just being here to listen. You're the one doing all the heavy lifting.

Just keep practicing thinking positive and eventually it will start to stick. It takes awhile to build a new habit. Like when I rearranged my kitchen, it took some time before I stopped going to where the mugs used to be instead of to their new location ... and I moved them there! LOL! I know you can do it if you keep at it.

Don't think of not getting your need for affection filled as rejection. It's not about you. It's about her and her inability to give affection right now because of all the stress from work and disappointment in herself for her screw ups. One way to look at it is if instead of affection you needed money but your wife didn't have any money, you couldn't really be upset with her for not giving you money since she didn't have it to give in the first place. Maybe she's giving you all she has with the lunches and the pats and the occasional hugs and kisses. From her perspective maybe she's giving you all she has to give.

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Unfortunately I think you may be right, she IS giving all she can give. I feel as if it's all she WANTS to give. I know, I know, it's the negative way of thinking about it but I just think I know her well enough to tell the difference. Then again, I could be wrong about that too since I've been wrong about alot of things lately.

I'm trying Snuggle, I really am. I do really well when I'm around her, it's when I'm by myself that I'm a wreck. I can deal with everything but just can't bear the thought of losing her. Is what I'm feeling normal for being almost 4 months after dday and 7 months since the ILBINILWY? When I write it down it seems like it isn't a very long time but to me it seems like eternity. I guess the last 7 months coupled with the 6 months she was gone makes it over a year since I've had a wife.

Another day down. I would like to report progress but I don't know what constitutes progress. Is still being together progress? In our case it's just a "living" condition right now. No REAL progress within myself lately. I seem to slip back into the "woe is me" mindset alot. Our family is everything to me, our family isn't complete without her. I'm not complete without her.

Why do I care so much? She acts so selfish nowadays, even rude to a point. Is she still trying to justify herself? Is she using this as a shield from her guilt? She's never ever been selfish. Is she trying to making up for all her so called "sacrificing"? I emphathize with her so much. I know she's scared, I know she's confused. I knew this was going to be hard work but I never realized how hard. I'm going to support her all the way out the door if that's where she ends up going. I hope she realizes how much she is loved and missed and needed by me and our family. We could be so happy again.


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Dino,

Are you still verifying NC is still in place?

LA

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Can't confirm NC. She says there is NC. I'm between a rock and a hard place. My controlling behavior of the past is a major LB for her. If I ask her about NC, I cut my own throat. She hasn't committed to anything yet so she doesn't care either way. What can I do? I have 5 months to go here. Once we get back to the states, I'll have more options as will she. She'll have to make a choice, I've made very clear my conditions for recovering our marriage, I've told her that NC is the most important condition and why I need it (we need it). If she chooses a telephone relationship over our marriage, she can have it.

Last edited by Dino69; 06/13/08 02:33 AM.

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Hey Dino! Hope your weekend is going well. I've got a busy one and will be working both days with an alumni event on Saturday and graduation on Sunday. I'll have to treat myself to some early days off next week ... grin

So, you think you know your wife well enough to say that she is only giving you the minimum because that is what she WANTS to give? May I point out that you had no idea she was unhappy with you for years? I do believe you know her habits well, but I suspect you have a lot to learn about her true emotions and motivators. When you find yourself making assumptions about why she does things, stop yourself because so far you've been way off!

I do think it's pretty normal to still feel a lot of emotional pain after just 4 months. It seems like forever to you I know, but that's just pain distorting your sense of time. In reality it is not that long. It's not even a whole semester in college!

Definitely being together is progress. The more time you are together, the stronger the base you build. Every day you are kind and loving to her is progress. Maybe you can't see yet, but remember that you are adding stones to that pond ... one day that pile will get big enough to see from under the water.

Maybe you yourself are like that pond too. You don't think you see any real progress only because to you progress is that you stop having sad feelings. That's not progress, that's the whole end result! Progress is getting better at catching yourself and saying, "Dino, stop your bellyaching, it's not the end of the world." If you're recognizing it, you're making progress.

Anyway, I hope your wife realizes too how much she is loved by you. I think she will. She seems like a pretty smart woman. She's a little lost now, but she doesn't seem like the type to stay that way.

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Snuggle,

you know I printed out that little saying about the pebbles and the pond you sent and laminated it and keep it in my wallet. I take it out and read it once in awhile, I've got some other things in there for inspiration.

I realize I don't know her as well as I thought, that in itself makes me sad. I guess I'm still not past the "mourning" period yet. I thought I was but it seems so fresh to me everyday. I'm working hard to get past all this depression but it is slow going. As far recognizing it, it's pretty blatant to me. I'm still on the lookout for my "magic" relief button. Remember that meditation thing we talked about? Not quite there yet. I had a panic moment when I got home from work yesterday. Broke down big time, I was alone, on the computer and found some pics of her deployment to the desert, nothing bad or with OM, just triggers. She looked so happy while in all those pics, all without me. I just broke down.

Had a good night though. We went out to dinner while kids were with friends. We had fun, walked around the village for a few minutes. Picked up the kids and came home. Sat together on the sofa and watched tv. We're like this pretty much as the time though, just not intimate. I love being with her. I've got to work on not being so needy though. She consumes my thoughts Snuggle, every minute, everyday. I'm doing the things for myself but can't break free of the neediness. All I think about is spending time with her, no matter how trivial, I just want to be around her. I do a good job of hiding it but eats at me. I have a hard time concentrating at work, doing my homework, everything.

I got my futon yesterday so finally got a decent nights sleep. She got up early this morning to go run and she came down to pat my head before she left. She asked me why I looked depressed? I had just oppened my eyes, could I look depressed that early in the AM? I do my best so that she never sees me down, I know it's not in my best interest or ours.

She seems to be doing good, her week of class away from the job did her good. She did get calls every evening asking for her help and getting her all stressed out. It's saturday morning right now and her boss already called about some kind of emergency. We let the answering machine answer all calls now, we never used to do that. She hides her emotion very well. I hope she's not feeling as bad I as do. Is it wrong for me to want her to be as sad about our marriage as I am?

We talk all the time about our finances for after retirement and stuff like that. I mentioned to her that we need to get her debt free so that she can afford to have her own place. She said "what do you mean? I'm not even thinking about that right now" I guess that's a good sign. One of the things that does bother me though is how she is always making comments about "my money, your money". If I pay for something, she'll say "I'll pay you back" or "let's split this bill", stuff like that. I hope she's not thinking that her retirement and move to the states is going to be some kind of magic moment of stress relief for her. Moves are always very stressful and pile her retirement on top of that and trying to find a job and everything else, it's going to be rough. At least I know that her finally being free from that dungeon she works in will be a big relief for her. I just hope it's enough to help her think clearly about us. We're going to need all the help we can get. I hope things work out. We'll see.

Have good weekend Snuggle, I'm going to make some breakfast and gather up a few pebbles to throw into the pond today.
Thanks again


FWH/BS (me)42, FBS/WW 39, married 18 yrs, WW A discovered 3/03/2008, my A discovered 06/2003
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Bad day today, not even a fathers day card snuggle.

I'm not doing well. I even wrote her a little thank you note for helping me be the father I am. She mentioned it in the car when we were driving and it ended up in a bad discussion and going home. We talked again and it didn't go well. No bad stuff just more reinforcement of how much she doesn't love me (she said so) and how she doesn't want to go on like this but we should stay living together for the kids until we leave here. I'm just rotting inside.

I foolishly mentioned the NC thing and that set her off about her being smothered and my history of that and how she doesn't want to live like that anymore. She just hates me Snuggle. She said that she hasn't spoke to him in weeks and when she does it's only for the legal stuff. She said she could stop talking to him and it wouldn't do me a bit of good, she still wouldn't be in love with me. She's on an island and wants to be there by herself. She told me to live my life. I think I'm finished. I don't know what to do, it's like day one all over again, I can't stop crying. She said she'd move out and I told her I didn't want her to. I'm so weak, What am I supposed to do? I don't have anyone to talk to, I have no where to go. I make her feel like crap, I feel like crap, maybe we should call it quits. I'm so afraid of losing her, I haven't made any progress at all like I thought, it was all bull. SHe's so angry, I don't recognize her, she's not the person I know. My wife would never be so uncaring, so harsh, so hurtful. But she's my baby, I'm so lost without her...

how do I last 5 more months without ruining the slim chance we have? After all the hurtful things she said, she said for me to quit acting stupid and see what happens, but nothings happening. I thought there may be some ever so slight changes but after talking her, nothings changed, why would the next few months be any different? If she's not trying to change anything or decide either way, what is there to wait and see? I'm so lost!!! I just want to go to sleep, for a long long time. I love my kids.


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(((dino)))

Please find some sort of counselor where you are. There has to be someone you can go to, to talk to about this.

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Dino,

I've been reading your thread. I'm not all the way through it, yet. I'm beginning my post because I keep thinking of things to address.

First, on the NC...I'm hearing you say you have no way to trust but verify. That doesn't play in my book. She has a cellphone...you check it in front of her for contact. You do this FOR your marriage. You both have a high EN for O&H. This is acting for O&H, see? Each time you check, you're standing for your marriage, acknowledging her emotions, her weaknesses, her quandry, if you will...and you're ascertaining the truth separate from her truth.

Breaks apart the facts from her stuff.

See, she made a promise to you to tell you immediately of each contact. That's transparency. She has broken that promise to herself, to you and your marriage again and again. You want to be of REAL support to her? Then help her fight for your marriage.

Then the feelings your both so fixated on will come back.

Each time there is contact, the recovery clock starts over. It really does. She is not in withdrawal...can't get to that stage until there is NC for real, for a long time.

You had the best way to ascertain NC...through the military. There was a NC order in place...and you didn't report all the contact. You didn't call OMW each time there was a call. Can feel like you're protecting your marriage...instead of sinking it.

You've read As are like addictions. You even experienced it a bit with your A...because you still made contact twice afterwards. Even though you KNEW each time, might be the last choice you made in your marriage.

You didn't get to the bottom of your reasons for your A. That in itself is what this whole power struggle with your WW right now is about, IMO. See, what you essentially told her five years ago was that it didn't mean anything...she was meeting your ENs just fine...so you were essentially throwing your family away for absolutely no reason. You wiped out her existence...her significance...because you chose not to get to the bottom of why you did it.

I think because you didn't see your own wayward fog you are lost in hers. You didn't require of yourself so you are not requiring of her...to unravel every step, justification, excuse it took in your own mind to do what you did.

Only thing we have as human beings to amend the past is to amend in the present. Means you own what you did, why you did it, and why and how you won't do it again. The how is important...acting transparently, not talking with members of the opposite sex intimately; in your case, heavy emphasis on physical connection...your A was about ENs...just not the one you think it was...and your two other contacts afterward are significant, too.

When WW speaks, I don't hear you listening and repeating; I don't hear you handing her her words back to confirm or clarify. She doesn't believe you will ever get over her A...because she didn't get through yours. You knew that right off the back...you are very O&H here...and I hear you choosing to be that way in conflict, not in comfort. You can do both.

Your children know your WW did something horrendous. They may even know what--yet without you both sitting down with your 14 and 16-year-old and being O&H, they get to spin in the wind and learn to avoid unnecessary trouble, even while that choice takes down their whole world.

Could this be what you and your WW experienced as children? Go around, not through, together? Just a guess and it comes from my own filter, too. You don't burden them with information...the tremendous fear, anger and guilt they feel comes from you guys.

Like Cat said...your WW is going to feel pressured, miserable, fearful and UNCOMFORTABLE around you. You represent your marriage because she isn't any longer. Not for who you are, for what you represent. Stand for your marriage, anyway. Uncomfortable is a signal we aren't addressing what we really want...signals we're in fantasy, not in reality. There's no acceptance in uncomfortable.

I think you really want her to be the bad guy here...you put your responsibilities onto her...her lack of affection, her words, her actions...that's where your focus is on...turn it toward you. See where you didn't really forgive yourself for your A, because you didn't seek redemption, understanding, or change your marital boundaries. Your WW had male friends...and that was okay with you...just her thing...not healthy at all...she got her ENs met by them in place of you. She's created a whole lot of drama in herself...swirled from it...so she wouldn't want female friends, who are a closer reflection of who she is and what she does.

You can still put into place healthy personal and marital boundaries. No friends of the opposite sex except for friends who are couples. Friends of your marriage. You already know well you cannot control others...you can control knowing the truth. You have ways and obligations. Take them. Do them.

Stop defining bad and good discussions. Choose to see any discussion as more information than you had before. Same for bad days and good days...they aren't roadmarkers...you're making them something they are not. We connect through conflict and through happiness. We just do. Both are essential.

As you nailed, everything in moderation. You focus on your listening, stop DJing your marriage and share your stuff. On page five you have two posts from 5/17 which are essential knowledge for your WW. Re-read them and see if you've really communicated your stuff well to her directly.

Healthy stuff you can do...check her phone, check the bill (and request from the same dept that has the NC order in for ways to ensure NC); schedule relationship talks once a week for 20 minutes...same date and time...to the best of your ability. Get those 20 hours of crisis-level UA time together no matter what...play together recreationally...go for walks...there's a whole lot of talking that's not R-related to talk about...sharing your stuff (your thoughts, perceptions, beliefs, feelings and perspective) and listening/repeating hers.

Demand of your counselor for healthy intimacy exercises...for communication (do them twice a week for a total of one hour...it can count towards your UA time); physical intimacy...where you do non-sexual touch exercises; work intimacy--share from your day for no more than ten minutes each something about your work; recreational intimacy...can include aesthetic, creative, emotional and intellectual intimacy. All these actions are commitment intimacy...and you've been in crisis intimacy since the beginning of the year.

Get to know reality from fantasy...if you find yourself wishful, know that's a signal you aren't in reality right then.

You are not foolish for talking about how important NC is...get that straight in your head. Your marriage may well end because of your conflict avoidance...which robs love bank deposits because it's the real LB...it's not O&H, is it?

She sets herself back to being in the A with each contact. Which prohibits her from having real loving feelings for you. HELP HER. If this were heroin, would you be avoiding talking about, checking up independently, trying to cut off her supply, or at least, stating you KNEW she was still shooting up?

Because she is...and it's not all on you...she has her part. You have the clarity right now...she doesn't. You are her husband, her partner, her real love. Bring reality for yourself, for her and your marriage. She has real power of choice...and each time she chooses, underscore you know she knows that she is attacking your marriage.

We also have the highest need for EN when we aren't meeting it in ourselves, or our half of the marriage...and when our partner isn't.

Consider depression as anger turned inward. I believe you already know what I'm saying here. You know it, fight it, don't want it to be this way. It is this way, right now. Not forever. Each day we are new again...because we can make different choices. You have no idea, Dino, how incredibly strong, true and courageous you really are...experience this in yourself and be radically honest.

You are not weak. You make choices you know are harming your marriage, getting to recovery. Stop making those choices.

You do NOT make her feel like crap. She feels like crap. RESPECT her stuff as hers...our emotions come from WITHIN, Dino. Did you read Surviving An Affair? Have you read Torn Asunder? You nailed you being codependent right now...stop and read "Codependent No More" even though it sounds like a temporary, understandable condition from infidelity crisis. Get to know why the affection is so important...hyper important right now...because it sounds to me like you want desperately for your WW to choose you.

Share that. Share what you find and forget how it makes you look. Act O&H and you will experience reality...confirm, "I hear you feel like crap right now." That's reality.

When you guys get through the mess, the healing, the repeated harming...then you'll get to where you do make one another happy...because of the skills you acquire right now...gotta go back to raw basics and rebuild.

Know that you fear her anger...and poke around inside yourself and find out if you fear your own. Anger is a signal, not a condition. Signals us that someone is crossing our boundaries--and it's usually us. I think you feel anger when you cross your boundary of respect...when you lie by omission about your stuff...when you put it away. And I think that's what you've seen again and again in people coping with infidelity...putting it away, out of sight, out of mind...and you know that's why you are where you are today, right now. Doesn't GO away when you put it away--still affects everything.

You don't deserve her infidelity anymore than she did yours. She HURT THIS MUCH...SHE SWIRLED AND FELT WEAK, WRONG, DONE WRONG and powerless...she experienced what you are experiencing--TALK ABOUT IT. You stopped contact. She hasn't. I think she had an exit affair from her own resentment and pain.

She's not exiting. She's right there.

Up to you to be clear on the truth...she cannot contact OM for any reason...legal or otherwise. Report her. Do what is necessary to bring reality--it's the only thing to break the stranglehold she has on fantasy.

You know you don't call it quits based on feeling like crap. You know why? Because that's what you've been fighting her for all this time...to NOT make her choices of action based on feelings. Feelings come back...not until you stop blocking them through lies, guilt, deception and shame, though.

You haven't made any progress like you thought? Turn that question into yourself, make it about you. Only you can gauge your own progress...base it on what you're doing you promised not to, and what you aren't doing you promised yourself to do.

Getting your own lines clear--you read here, study and have learned how to fight infidelity, recover from it and thrive in your marriage...or thrive without it. Act from those beliefs.

Your chance at a thriving marriage remains the same as it always was...up to you, right here and now...if you will stop doing what you said you knew was dumb...doing the same stuff and expecting different results.

When you hurt, state it, "I feel a lot of pain right now." Tag on the right now...it's honest. Do the same for all your emotions...did you tell her how your heart soared before you left for your training? Did you tell her you KNOW you guys can work all the way through this together? That you are half of the transparency...you've got your job to do...and she's got her's?

Have you read RockSolid's thread in Recovery? Please do and let me know what resonates or doesn't inside you, 'k?

Inform OMW...just as you wish she'd have informed you of each contact. Did your A damage another marriage? Is your WW holding a double-guilt load because she not only attacked your marriage, but also another one?

The damage she fears to her children, she did to their children...same stuff, doubled. That's a lot to share and work through...to own and amend...to find redemption for...even if she could convince herself it was okay to do so to her innocent children, because you deserved it; there really isn't a way to justify doing it to OMW's family, is there?

Please stop looking at "nothing changes" because your A changed everything...so does hers...and each day, she's new, different, because of the choices she makes. When you get the signal nothing is changing, look at your choices. That's where you have real power and limits.

You can do this...you can stop focusing over there, in her stuff, and listen to her stuff...repeat and hand back. Share your own. Know reality (NC) and act from it.

Until NC is really in place and verified, you won't see your real W again. Don't let that happen, 'k? Your half...your part.

You're not alone...you have yourself, us and others you can talk to...your family, her family...ask for others to help you stand for your marriage...and let the outcome go.

LA

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{{{{{{{{{{{{Dino}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Chin up. You don't need a card to know you are an awesome dad. You have been dad AND mom to your kids over the past 12-18 months many times. I know you know this.

This was about forcing a sign that you're making progress. But that zen principle applies ... the harder you try to grasp, the less you can hold. Think about water again, you can't grab at it, you have to cup your hands to hold on to it. Her emotions toward you are not fixed. They vary, day by day, hour by hour. Just like yours. Sometimes you feel good like you would do anything to support your wife and walk from heck and back for her. Other times you feel like you've had it and you're ready to let her walk out the door. What she says now is not necessarily what she will feel later. You have to step back and look at the big picture. Your wife doesn't even know what the big picture is yet, so how can you? Now is the time to observe and plan, but not to react. If you were in the field, you wouldn't necessarily shoot at everything you came across that might or might not be an enemy, right? You should be in scout mode. You have to have discipline. We don't want you or your wife to get taken out with friendly fire, so just observe and catalog your observations. Come here and we can analyze the data and talk and decide if there is danger or not. No more knee-jerk reactions.

I don't care what anybody else says. Don't bring up the no contact again. It is too closely connected to your wife's fears about the kind of husband you were in the past. I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but if I were you, I would apologize for bringing it up and tell her that the last thing you want is to keep being that guy who smothered her. Tell her that you're working on changing those things but you're human and not perfect and that you hope she will get to a place where she will give the improved you a chance. Note, no need for her to answer yes or no. That is just a statement of what you hope for.

Anyway, sorry if I am being hard on you. I really wish I could do something to cheer you up. I'm so bummed the lolcats don't work on you wink LOL!

Bottom line, the card doesn't mean anything. You are making it mean something. FYI, I did not give my husband a birthday card this year. It doesn't mean I don't love him or care about him or our marriage. I should have done more for his birthday, but I was just swamped at work the week of his birthday and didn't have time to do anything. Thank goodness a couple weeks before he asked me if he could order a really expensive jacket and it would be his bday present, because I'm sure I wouldn't have had a present either! I know ... bad Snuggle!! But do you see how it doesn't really mean anything?

Ok, I have to get dressed for graduation this afternoon. Take care Dino. Happy father's day ... you are a great dad and I wish there were more of you.

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I hear everything you're saying Snuggle and I understand. This thing is such an emotional rollercoaster. We were doing really well yesterday adn somehow her mentioning my thank you note got her going on all the other stuff, and them I take the opportunity to talk about stuff and it's all downhill from there. I really believe that her guilt has slot to do with it. She says it does and says she hasn't yet forgiven herself for getting so weak. She's so angry about life in general and is scared about the future. Says she doesn't know herself or what she wants to do in life in general. I feel for her so much. The last thing I want to do is cause more stress.

I did apologize to her about talking about the NC thing. I explained that days are up and down for me too. I told her that the controlling thing is something that I'm working and won't be that way to her ever again. She said I had every right to be that way but said that it makes her feel smothered and she doesn't want that ever again. That will be the last time I ask about it. She's going to have to make that choice herself. I do fear for her safety though, if she gets caught she's going to be in alot of trouble. I won't lie, it hurts to know that it means that much to her that she's willing to risk her well being to do that. She tells me that she just get updates from him in case she gets called to testify against him. Says she hasn't talked to him in weeks, it hurts.

Yesterday ended up going pretty well after all. We had dinner and watched Juno. Everything I see gets me so sad though. It seems like theres always something that reminds me of marriage or growning old or raising kids. In the movie the girl said that she wanted to make sure that her baby would be with a couple that would love each other forever. She asked her dad if it was possible for a couple to stay in love with each other forever. I had to walk out, I'm so sensitive to everything, I can't figure out a way to stop doing that. It was tough yesterday talking to my family and in-laws. Noone knows we're having trouble. I love my mother-in-law so much. Everyone asked how we were doing and of course I said wveryone is doing well. My wife was witting next me the whole time.

Like I said, I didn't start this whole episode, I wanted the day to be good. I do have to stop holding on so tight. It's hard to find the right grip. I thought one thing she said was kind of funny. She was talking about how much we don't get along or don't conversate and stuff like that, how much we weren't friends. I kind of let everything slide since she was emotional at that moment, but she said "we don't even sleep together anymore". I thought that was kind of strange for her to say. She knows why I don't sleep with her. She even said she doesn't want to touch me. Am I making a mistake by sleeping downstairs? Am I sending the wrong message by doing that?

Anyway, she gave me a hug and kissed me on the cheek before she went upstairs. She said I smelled good, I asked her why, she said "you smell like a man". I'm trying Snuggle, I have to concentrate on the big picture. I don't think I did anything wrong yesterday, just bad timing I guess. I didn't do any DJ or LB type stuff so you can be proud of me there. I guess I just overreacted yesterday on my post. I was a wreck though, it just got to me really bad for some reason. I ended up fixing her car door locks and it took my mind off of things for a couple of hours.

About the card thing, it did kind of bother me. The kids didn't do anything either. I always make sure the kids don't forget b-days and stuff like that. It's just a care thing I guess. The kids are just kids but I thought that she would've at least kept them in line. It's over now, just another bad memory I have to flush.

One last thing, I asked her again about if she thought we'd be able to live under these conditions for another 5 months. Of course she said she would have no problem with it. Somehow we got on the subject of her moving out, she said she would and that I'm forcing her to make the decision now and she decided that it was finished. I told her that was not what I wanted, she says that it actually brought her peace now that she felt the decision was made. Of course we talked more after that and noone is going anywhere. It hurt when she said that, I know it's just talk until she takes action but man it hurt.

Thanks again Snuggle. Thanks for the support and kind words. Don't you ever worry about being hard on me. It took some hard love to get me on the right track so more can't hurt. I just hope it's not too late. I think I'm going to lay off all this reading and solution searching I've been doing. It may be hurting more than helping at this point. I catch myself attaching some kind of expected result from the things I read. I think I'll just concentrate on actions and taking care of myself. Of course you're going to be my rock, I hope I'm not putting too much pressure on you. You just have such a good way of painting the picture for me with words. I need to trade in my shotgun for a sniper rifle and take aim at the things that are real "threats".

thanks again Snuggle, have a good day


FWH/BS (me)42, FBS/WW 39, married 18 yrs, WW A discovered 3/03/2008, my A discovered 06/2003
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I really appreciate your time in putting all of this together. I'm so glad there are people out there with enough compassion to help those in need (like myself).

I want to attack this NC issue and maybe shed more light on it. Please tell me if you think it's just more excuses but I really feel like I'm taking the best approach I can under the curent circumstances.

She hasn't committed anything to me right now LA, nothing. The only thing she has said is that with her life situation with retirement and the legal trouble and stress with her actions and our marriage and her guilt from failures as a mom and wife and everything else you can pile on top of that, she isn't in any position to make a rational decision about our marriage right now. Basically, if I press her to make a decision, she says in her current state of mind, it would be easier for her to go off and be on her own so she doesn't have to deal with anymore stress. She has told me on numerous occasions that right now she just wants to be on her own with no pressure, she just wants to sleep. I know it's a fantasy world but with the job she does, coping is a victory for her right now.

With that said, she has very little care about what I think or feel. NC subject is a HUGE LB for her right now. It has very little to do with NC, it's really just the subject of my past controlling and jealous behavior. She did tell me that she won't lie about it and she hasn't. We're not it any kind of recovery mode or anything that we would have some kind of agreement to sit down and talk about when she has contact or why she needed to or any of that. Basically, she doesn't really care. Yesterday she was very frank when she told me that my belief that NC with him would help us out would be a very big mistake. She wouldn't be in any other state of mind even this guy were to disappear off the face of the earth. So this is about choices in my opinion. Choices or pros and cons. My wife is very strong, her A was fueled by the 8 months of separation more than anything else I believe, a casualty of war. None of the MB principles work from 4000 miles away, no intimacy, no 15hrs, no nothing. She did make her choice and it was wrong and she's paying for it.

Here in the UK they don't have the traditional cell phone contracts like we do in the states. Everything here is pay as you go. Like the throwaway phones you get from Radioshack. When you run out of minutes, you go buy a voucher and call in to recharge your minutes, no bill, no record, nana. So there is no checking up. If she doesn't make an enthusiastic agreement to show me her phone, any attempts I make will just be taken as another attempt to manipulate and control her, not in our best interest, marriage or otherwise. If we survive this initial nuclear blast, we may be able to make agreements like that and talk about them as a couple. Right now, we aren't even close to being at that point. As far as that military NC thing goes, they are in separate countries. Unless there was some kind of FBI/CIA operation that was monitoring their cell phones, noone would ever know. I never had contact with OMW, nor will I. Like I said, they live in another country. If OMW or I decided to report any contact to the military, what evidence would I have? Like I said, no records, no bills. If they were ever approached, they could just throw away their phone. For all I know, they each have a phone just for calling each other. If they get caught for whatever reason, she would be demoted and probably sent to jail. For him, who knows. He's already gonna be kicked out, lose his officer commission and some kind of hugr fine and possible dishonorable discharge. I don't know if breaking the NC order could make it any worse. His punishment is still pending since it's such a, antrocious crime for an officer.

So where does that leave me? If I keep at it, she just gets farther and farther away, she knows exactly how I feel about it, knows it's a condition for our recovery. I've told her everytime the subject comes up, if we start on our recovery in the future, contact with him will not be tolerated at all. I won't live with it. She knows that, right now she doesn't care. Basically, we're kind of in a holding pattern, we don't like it here. It's a huge depressor for both of us and the kids. All the events of the past few yrs, being here, all the stress she's under from work, our marriage, the guilt, her retirement and our upcoming move to who knows where, all are factors in her saying she isn't in a healthy enough frame of mind to make a educated decision about us. She's emotional right now and angry. Most of her anger comes from the fact that she saved me from having to go through what she's going through right now with her career loss. Granted, that has alot to do with why we're in this situation now but that's all past. She's angry that she lost her career for a huge mistake, the same one I made and now she looks like the bad guy in everyones eyes, everyone that knows anyway.

So here we are. I have a choice to make. I've talked to her about my reasoning for insisting on NC, told her I believed it to be in the best interest of our marriage and not just for my well being. She insists that the only reason for contact is for the legal stuff, what should I do? I could raise a stink about them having contact for which I would have no proof. If the military did anything about it, she would be demoted, go to jail and where would we be then? Would that make her want to work on our marriage and reconnect with me? Would that kind of tough love draw her back to me because she would see how much I "care" about our marriage? I don't think so. I have a little more respect for her ability to make educated decisions. If she gets caught, she will suffer the consequences, at least she will own it. I could continue to press her into a corner and end up cutting my own throat. If there is any chance for us, I want to keep it open. Me letting go of the NC thing for now may prolong some of this but I don't believe it will kill us. Me continuing to press her will, I know this. We leave here in 5 months. We have a family reunion in August in Hawaii for my brothers wedding, it should be a good break and time to reconnect with family. She'll be done at her job in October so that will be one huge burden off her back. I want to wait for favorable conditions before we do anything. She agrees, it sucks but at least we agree. It won't be easy for me but it's better than the alternative. Our living situation here has a huge impact on our decisions. If we were in the states, she would've moved out, thats for sure. It may happen when we get back, we've talked about that too. A separation may be what she needs to help her decide. I know it's not the ideal thing to do but if she decides to leave, what can I do. I know in myself that I've acted admirably and that I've shown her the love and support that I can give, that she is safe to come back to our marriage If she chooses. I believe in my heart that she will make the right decision, now is just now the time. it hurts just the same, that's something I have to deal with, she can't help me with that.

Besides the NC thing, we do really well. We spend alot of time together, it may very well be because we have noone else to spend it with but I have believe that it is helping us reconnect on some level. We get along great and make plans every weekend. She just called me to let me know what she's doing with the kids and stuff. Her and the kids are off today, actually the kids are out of school now, she has the day off. She hasn't done that since I can remember. We don't go to counseling together. They don't have any "real" counseling here. Just people to talk to. She won't go anyway, still not committed enough. She still cites all the things I used to do, I wouldn't go to counseling back "then". I go to my mental health doctor once a week, more of an outlet to talk, no real counseling but it helps. Also got me some sleeping pills, don't need them all the time but it helps when I need it.

I really do understand the concept of the NC thing, I really do. It's something I struggle with alot. I'm just not sure if I'm at the point of sacrifice yet or not. If I believed we were at the point of no return, I would be more than willing to lay it all out at the sacrifice of her well being. If what she tells me holds any truth, I have to give her some credit and be willing give her the respect of making decisions she believes to be right and just. That's soemthing I haven't done for her in yrs. I've always tried to control her and her decisions, disrespecting her and pushing her away, I don't want to do that again. I'm not a fortune teller, it may come out in the end that I made a huge mistake. If I always knew what to do , I wouldn't be in the position I'm in now. I can only make an educated guess.

I'll read the thread you suggested and post some thoughts. LA, again, I appreciate you taking the time, I hope you can see my point. I may be apologizing to you one day, hopefully not.


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LA

I just read through a bunch of Rocks thread and a couple of things jumped out at me.

First, it made me realize how good I actually have it. At least the problems we have are just the marriage and things related to it. Neither of us are having to cope with addictions or any substance problems. I feel for those that do, this marriage stuff is enough on it's own. Makes me feel like such a fool and emphasizes how weak I really am. I really need to do some work on me. Alot of people here on MB would probably love to be at the level were at right now. In retrospect, we're leaps and bounds better than we were 6 months ago, and that was prior to dday. So thank you for that LA.

The second thing was about waiting for her to get well. Well is a relative term. My wife isn't sick or addicted in anyway, but mentally she isn't well at all. I admire her so much for how she has been able to handle all the things she has gone through in the last 6 months. From the guilt of leading a second life, to dday, to her punishment and ending of her stellar career because of a stupid error in judgment. Now dealing with a job that treats her like $hit and works her to death and a retirement she isn't prepared for and me pressuring her about our marriage. All of this and she has still been able to do the outstanding work she has always done and making her shop run like nothing ever happened. Working ungodly hours without complaining and still managing to stay relatively positive at home with me and the kids. She could be justified in clamming up and shutting herself in the room and hiding from everything (which is what she says shes feels like doing). But no, she struggles through everything and keeps her head up. She's been doing it for years like she says (she's done it for everyone else, putting their needs in front of hers) Now she says she has to take care of herself, thats part of our dilemma, how can she believe that it is possible to take care of herself while at the same time staying in our marriage without going back to the same old routine. I'm making the changes on my part, we have to be around long enough for her to see them (my part). So thanks for that LA. I guess what I'm saying is, I have to be patient and wait for her to heal within herself before I can expect her to give any energy to us. She hasn't healed herself, so rebuilding efforts toward the marriage are kind of on hold in some aspects, not all. Maybe reminding myself of this will help for me.

I'd really like to know how you feel about this. I really need to be able to empathize with her. Snuggle has mentioned that to me alot. Don't get me wrong, I'll never take blame for the things she did but our marriage was broken before any of that. Had it not been for her A, I may have never have fully awakened to the state of our marriage. I knew I had work to do, but had no idea why I did the things I did or why I treated my most precious gift in such an unkind and disrespectful manner. I know my part in this and I'm trying to make amends. I wish things could move along more quickly and I miss her so badly. But like I've told her, a few yrs to make things right are nothing compared to a lifelong marriage to someone I love. She is going to need patience from me as I will need for my own well being. Please let me know your thoughts.

Thanks again LA


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We don't want you or your wife to get taken out with friendly fire, so just observe and catalog your observations. Come here and we can analyze the data and talk and decide if there is danger or not. No more knee-jerk reactions.

Thank you for this Snuggle


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Dino,

Thank you for your replies. Would you do something for your peace of mind? Call the Harleys at the coaching center link at the top of the screen. It would be well worth the money and time, IMO, to be clear on your plan.

They are great for clarity.

Sounds to me like you know you're not in recovery right now. Knowing what phase we're in and when isn't as easy as it sounds.

As for her not being committed right now...again, I hear what you hear her saying...she did commit to informing you about NC and she lied by omission. I say this to help you to see not through her eyes...to know reality.

As for not making a decision about the marriage right now...I can't imagine without MC, some outside source of authority, while in contact, that she could make a decision for her marriage.

I could see her making the choice to not continue the A, however. You can stand by your belief...and if you believe contact continues the A, continues the fog and prohibits recovery right now, then stand by that.

When we are in crisis, it's understandable to believe that leaving everything will lessen stress...the stress comes from inside, lack of processing it, and she adds to her stress, reinjures you might say, through her choices. Easy to see from the outside; not from the inside. I believe our inner child is where that urge to leave comes from...to reduce one stress factor (in our minds)...not real. There is stress as a natural consequence of her actions.

Please talk to the Harleys about NC being a huge LB for her. I understand you wanting to get as many love bank deposits in...I know this affects your choices...for clarity, something which may resonate with you, I hope you will call them. And ask them about telling the children, also.

Reporting each contact as it happens wasn't a POJA decision...more of a requirement to get to requirement...can't begin one without having established the other. I'm so sorry that the UK is different in regards to cell phones. Does she repeatedly say "for legal reasons" or is that you recalling the one time she used that to justify contact?

I ask because I used to do that...stay in one frame of mind, one perspective, from me repeating in my head one response, over time. Not great for reality. What I get from you is that you are awaiting her decision whether to leave the marriage for OM, leave the marriage for her, or stay and work on the marriage, is that correct? When is the deadline for her decision? Is it October when you guys move? After the August family reconnect?

See, when I was in your shoes, awaiting my WH's decision...three months was horrific. Can you really go 8 or 9 months? What's a realistic time frame so you don't love all your loving feelings for her and NOT want to recovery yourself?

Are you sure she believes she made a seriously stupid mistake...that it was a mistake? I ask because she can believe the stupid part was in getting caught. Don't assume...better to know right now...because her continued contact, putting the OM before her family and your marriage says differently to me. Shoring you up to know reality instead of going into what she believes, which is dangerous to your marriage.

Can you see where her A has gone on for nearly a year, in the state of mind...with contact? Not one stupid mistake. Your own went from the ONS through two contacts...because your state of mind stayed in it, dwelled on it...otherwise, those two other contacts would not have taken place...when you really get it, you got it.

I worry you are mitigating to console, ease, soothe in some way yourself and her inside. To earn brownie points...which doesn't work at all. It continues what you didn't want to continue...subtle manipulation and control, though in a whole new way. We trick ourselves into continuing our habits...because for years we told our brains that's what we want...they keep handing us these manuevers...until we begin saying, "That's not what I want." It's how we keep re-experiencing the same stuff in different ways THINKING we're doing it differently.

I'm interested to know your reasons to not contact OMW. Do you, like your WW, see her as the reason for all of this pressure, mess?

I see a couple of things that strike me as parallels...one, your WW feels she gave everything (massive Giver) to the marriage and now it's time for her to give to herself, (something close); and her feeling added pressure from guilt failing as a wife and mother...big all or nothing POVs. At the same time.

I see you saying you couldn't prove contact, even if you were to report it to the military; and then I see you saying what good would it do your marriage if you reported contact and she went to jail.

She believes she saved you from going through what she is going through right now career-wise, is that correct? Do you mean your A was with someone in the military, also? Was this person also married? I thought I asked this before.

She can believe most of her anger comes from her past choices, like saving you...listen and repeat her words back because you act from respect..."You believe most of your anger right now is because of what you didn't do five years, not what you just did in the last year, is that correct?"

I see it as a reasonable fogged out statement...my As were about making my BH feel what I felt, go through what I went through...stupid stuff...I remember. Which is why I know the fog turns our reasoning process inside-out and upside-down...why our partners need to hand back our words, be our reasoning guides...not to convince us. To know reality while we do not.

I didn't understand your reasoning about if she gets caught at least she'll own it. She's not owning it now...she is violating the NC order...please don't go into her reasoning. Owning based on being found out is not ownership. Her actions would send her to jail, not you. Her actions got her here...yours did not get her here, 'k?

Maybe it's just my perception--I hope Snugglefresh and the others come back and post to you so you can hear their perceptions. Self-deception can become contagious when we want to agree our way back to feeling loved...that's my take...and if you go with her into her perceptions, then you have imbalance, disrespect and no one to be the lighthouse for your marriage.

It's like you believing that possibly she'll need a separation to make her decision in October, November or December...why? Why are you thinking this? How long can you live with her NOT choosing your marriage, the path to redemption...instead of pondering breaking apart her family and walking away, justifying her choice based on what you did and she didn't do five years ago? She chose not to recover back then...her half remains, too. No one is the bad guy in your marriage. You both made choices, from and for your half of the marriage.

You will not need to apologize to me, ever. I'm an anonymous poster who wants your marriage to recover and thrive. I'm a friend of your marriage. Know your reasons now (as you said you still don't know your reason for your A) because they are vital...you haven't gotten that compass set, your code made, nor are you choosing your actions from it...letting go the outcome. I understand...when in crisis, we swing one way and the other...reactivity at its highest.

Get your compass, your code and get on the phone to the Harleys...you've got your plan laid out well enough to impart it to them for their opinions. They are the experts. Dr. Bill Harley has many decades of experience in advising BH's right where you are now...'k?

You're not alone...thank you for reading Rock's thread and sharing your thoughts.

One last thought...can you see where you and your children are also suffering under the pressure of what wasn't your decision? You are all affected...natural consequences come and keep coming...isn't just her coping. You're in charge of the big picture...make sure you don't go into a BS fog, 'k?

LA

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Thank you for your replies. Would you do something for your peace of mind? Call the Harleys at the coaching center link at the top of the screen. It would be well worth the money and time, IMO, to be clear on your plan.

I'm working on that. The time difference makes it difficult. I have to take off from work to make an appt and I don't want anyone home when i call, you know what I mean? I've been in contact with oe of the counselors there by email, just have to make a time suitable for them and I

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As for not making a decision about the marriage right now...I can't imagine without MC, some outside source of authority, while in contact, that she could make a decision for her marriage.

She won't talk to anyone, don't know if she ever will. I don't know what to say about that. She's very strong willed. I understand that her stubborness is what got us here but I have to work with what we have. It may not work out for us but I have to try with what I've got. I still believe that somewhere inside her she stills sees us as a family. Maybe after some of this shock and pain wears off she'll be willing to MC for both of us. She knows I've already been going on my own, she's just not ready, reasons why not don't matter to me.

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Reporting each contact as it happens wasn't a POJA decision...more of a requirement to get to requirement...can't begin one without having established the other. I'm so sorry that the UK is different in regards to cell phones. Does she repeatedly say "for legal reasons" or is that you recalling the one time she used that to justify contact?
Again an LB issue. I believe she doesn't come out and tell me because she believes sooner or later I'll back her into a corner and demand to know. I've told her that thats not what I'm trying to do, but thats her perception and perception is reality unless the perception is changed, correct? As for the "legal" reasoning, let me explain. He's still going through his court martial. Shes afraid she will get called to testify, she wants it to done and over, doesn't want to get caught unprepared. Uses the contact to remain "aware" of the situation over in that other country. She says the same thing the 2 times she told me she talk to him. Says she never made any promises to me about that, just that she would tell me if I asked, said she wouldn't lie to me, her way of justifying to herself her actions. I hope to talk to the Harleys about this whole thing.

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See, when I was in your shoes, awaiting my WH's decision...three months was horrific. Can you really go 8 or 9 months? What's a realistic time frame so you don't love all your loving feelings for her and NOT want to recovery yourself?

I don't know what a realistic timeframe is. I do agree that I won't let it go long enough that I lose my love for her and begin to resent. I told her that on sunday, she doesn't grasp why I would begin to resent her. She's fogged out still. Believes that if we don't work out we could still be the best of friends for the kids sake. I never thought I'd last this long but I'm still here kicking and still upbeat. Like i said, I set milestones for survival. I'm usually a strong person, I do this for her and our family but maybe after I regaining my inner strength, either I'll walk myself or she'll see it and be attracted back. We'll see. As for a deadline, I think when we get back to the states, things will become pretty clear. We're not doing bad now. Like I said, we're doing as well as most marriages I see considering the bad shape were in. We're not going to continue like this forever, it would be physically and emotionally impossible. I'm not sure if you can put a deadline on something like this. A few years to repair is nothing compared to a lifelong marriage. If the time comes that I can no longer continue, I'll know. If the time comes for her, she'll let me know. Right now, neither of us wants to make hasty decisions based on emotion. I think we both value the marriage equally, I'm just more ready to work than she is. She carried me for years, worked for us alone, now it's my turn to carry her while she's weak. If she decides that she's ready to work with me, we'll repair and recoverm, if she decides not to, then we'll start new lives.

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Are you sure she believes she made a seriously stupid mistake...that it was a mistake? I ask because she can believe the stupid part was in getting caught. Don't assume...better to know right now...because her continued contact, putting the OM before her family and your marriage says differently to me. Shoring you up to know reality instead of going into what she believes, which is dangerous to your marriage.

I struggle with that thought daily. She knows she made a stupid mistake, knows she threw away her career for something she believed made her happy at the time. Casualty of war as I said. It's easy to fall when you're away for so long, i've seen it a million times to people who thought their marriages were bullet proof. Most don't know the experience of being away from your loved one for months on end. Pile the loneliness with marriage problems and the first friendly face that comes along in a sea of turmoil is easy to latch onto, not that everyone does, but it happens often. She know she screwed up. My wife is not a flighty, girly girl with weak substance, it took alot to get her where she is. My taking blame is not just a BS fog thing, I was not a saint by any means, my A was just a small part of why I pushed her away, she treated me like a prince and I threw it away, I can say that with every fiber of my being, not because of some self-saving scheme to keep my wife here. I screwed up our marriage. My wife and her A were just another symptom of the poisonous marriage I created, her half was enduring for the sake of saving it. So I may be a little more willing to "sacrifice" than most, I owe her that much. I will, however, say that if we decide to try at recovering our marriage, I will insist on doing things the right way, with the things I've learned here on MB and all help from people here. There has to be a marriage to "apply" principles to, thats where I am, trying to salvage a marriage to "save" (sounds kind of weird huh?).

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I worry you are mitigating to console, ease, soothe in some way yourself and her inside. To earn brownie points...which doesn't work at all. It continues what you didn't want to continue...subtle manipulation and control, though in a whole new way. We trick ourselves into continuing our habits...because for years we told our brains that's what we want...they keep handing us these manuevers...until we begin saying, "That's not what I want." It's how we keep re-experiencing the same stuff in different ways THINKING we're doing it differently.

I think about this too. Should I be handling this differently? Should I have acted different on dday? Did I act as I did as a way to amipulate her into coming back to me? I asked myself all these things. DDay was almost a relief for me, I finally found out why she was treating me the way she was, shy she didn't love me anymore. Misplaced hope it was. What I've learned is that her A wasn't what took her away, her becoming "aware" of me is what drove her away. Her time away allowed her to "see" for the first time how I had "manipulated" our marriage into what I thought was good for us. She finally stood up for herself, I'm kind of proud of her, not the A mind you, that is something for me to deal with also. "us" to deal with, just not right now. I am doing some things for brownie points, I'll admit that. I need them, there is nothing in my love bank, nothing, I'm paying on a mortgage for a home I no longer live in. But, I am NOT doing anything I'm not prepared to continue. Make no mistake LA, if we get this thing turned around, it WILL NOT go back to how things were, no way, neither she or I will live with that.

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I'm interested to know your reasons to not contact OMW. Do you, like your WW, see her as the reason for all of this pressure, mess?

Honestly, I've never even thought about the OMW other than I'm sure shes not doing so weel herself. I have to imagine that she suspected him of something or he had a history of these things or why would she be snooping in his email? Not sure if you knew, shes the one who found out everything and exposed to everyone. I found out because my wife had to tell me about the NC order. Wife says that in their last time physically together, they had talked about working at home on each others marriage since they knew it would be the last time they could actually see each other. I don't give it much thought because it doesn't really matter. The PA is over, there may be some emotional attachment still left but how long can it go on? Can she really continue with me and have her ENs filled over the phone? She may be able to, but I won't stand for life like this, won't happen. If she chooses a phone relationship over our marriage, she's weaker than I thought and I'll be good to be rid of her anyway.

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I see you saying you couldn't prove contact, even if you were to report it to the military; and then I see you saying what good would it do your marriage if you reported contact and she went to jail

What I said was, reporting it would do no good without proof. The only proof I have is of her telling me so. If I reported her, she went to jail after the burden of proof was supported, where would that leave me and my kids. Safe in the satisfaction that I did what was just and right? That I stood up for our marriage? Is what she doing a crime other than hurting my feelings? The only reason it's an actual crime is because we are in the military, adultery is only a crime in the military and in the eyes of God. In 5 months it won't even be a crime for her. Will she see that I acted in the interest of our marriage and come running back to me after she spends her time Leavenworth? I think not. She know she's doing wrong. She'll deal with it her way, like I said, she is not weak. I, on the other hand, am not so strong. So this is a test for me too. Allow her to make her own choices, something I never did. Do I reall think that this will make or break our marriage? I don't think so. It can if I allow it to. The time will reveal itself to me if I need to pack up and call it quits.

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She believes she saved you from going through what she is going through right now career-wise, is that correct? Do you mean your A was with someone in the military, also? Was this person also married? I thought I asked this before.

She believes she did at the time, knows now that it was self-defeating, at the time it was sacrifice, something she's battling with now. The OW was also military, worked with me, younger, not better looking, nothing to offer me other than attention, not that I was missing it from my wife. Our moving to another base saved us, only to be killed by contact. In retrospect, what I believed to be innocent contact, wasn't. There was no EA for me, just selfish self serving pride of knowing that someone else wanted me. Teenage cravings of a middle aged man. Never thought once of the effects it had on her. We both agreed that her inaction made me the monster I was, she owns her part in it.

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She can believe most of her anger comes from her past choices, like saving you...listen and repeat her words back because you act from respect..."You believe most of your anger right now is because of what you didn't do five years, not what you just did in the last year, is that correct?"

Thats only part of it. Anger from her stupidity, anger from her loss, anger from her inaction. Lots of anger. I have to work on the repeating back to her. I think about doing it, but it good for me just to keep from the LBs and DJs when she starts in on the "reliving" the past again and again. It's getting better each talk. She apologizes when she does it, at least shes aware now, she wasn't months ago. I'll try to do the repeating back thing, it would probably do good to hear herself saying what she says.

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It's like you believing that possibly she'll need a separation to make her decision in October, November or December...why? Why are you thinking this? How long can you live with her NOT choosing your marriage, the path to redemption...instead of pondering breaking apart her family and walking away, justifying her choice based on what you did and she didn't do five years ago? She chose not to recover back then...her half remains, too. No one is the bad guy in your marriage. You both made choices, from and for your half of the marriage.

I'm not saying she will need a separation. I've told her very clearly that a separation is just a cop out, a way of not dealing with our situation. But I also accept that a separation is not the end of things. Only the end is the end. I'm just aknowledging the possibilities. We haven't talked about it at all. She even says that she isn't thinkin about it. Just one of the many things said during our relationship talks. We try not to discount anything, leave everything on the table, things we never did before. This is progress for us no matter how twisted and strange it may sound. We let things sit in the shadows for so long, just talking about things no matter how unpleasant, it progress.

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Self-deception can become contagious when we want to agree our way back to feeling loved...that's my take...and if you go with her into her perceptions, then you have imbalance, disrespect and no one to be the lighthouse for your marriage.

I understand this all too well. It is a delicate balancing act to remain truthful oneself while at the same time wanting to feel loved. I miss her so bad it seems that sometimes I will do anything. I know I won't, she wouldn't let me anyway, she'd see right through my deceptions, that may be another one of her fears. I'm not looking to decieve her or myself. I have no delusions of makgin "temporary" fixes for the sake of short term affection. For once in my life, I have a vision of long term health and happiness for our marriage. It's taken me 18 yrs to realize, unfortunately it took a nuclear bomb to wake me up. I can only hope it's not too late. Only she can decide that. Pressure from me and pushing her into choices won't do. No matter where her rationalization comes from, she will make her own choices without my influence. The only influence I can give her from my standpoint is for her to see that I am the safe place, that she can come back home to ssfety without fear of regression to the way it was. If she sees that, I have no doubt she will make the right choice. It the damage is too great and she doesn't see it, there is nothing I can do. Only regret what could've been. I do feel fear LA, i do. I don't want to lose her, I don't have my compass yet, you're right. At least I don't have my spiritual compass anyway. I am trapped by fear right now, I'll admit it. I don't think I'm doing anything irrational though, I feel like I'm still ok in that aspect.

I will get on the phone with the Harleys though, been wanting to do it for a couple of weeks now, time zones are a pain though, not an excuse, believe me, Im not afraid to talk to anyone anymore, I'll spill my guts to the first willing ear LOL! Money is not an issue, just a tool.

Thanks again LA







FWH/BS (me)42, FBS/WW 39, married 18 yrs, WW A discovered 3/03/2008, my A discovered 06/2003
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You are sounding much better today! Are you feeling a little more upbeat?

I have to say, I found this statement REALLY interesting:

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Anyway, she gave me a hug and kissed me on the cheek before she went upstairs. She said I smelled good, I asked her why, she said "you smell like a man".


Do you think sometimes she misses the physical affection between you two? Since I don't know her, I don't really know what is normal conversation for you guys. However if *I* said that, that would definitely be a come on. Otherwise, the only time I would notice how my husband smelled is if it was bad ... LOL!

I'm glad you were able to keep busy with things to get your mind calmed down. That is huge progress. It's too bad you are in England and not California, because I have enough projects to keep you really busy the next five months wink

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Yes Snuggle, doing much better today.

Yesterday was a good day too. I was in a pretty good dang mood and she was in a good mood too. She actually called me at work twice yesterday to say hi and ask me about some things, sounded cheery also, it made me feel good. She had the day off so she was running around with the kids.

I wish I could put my finger on the differences between my good days and bad days. That's the elusive key to me stayin sane throughout the weeks. It seems to be getting better for me as the days go by. This morning was good too, she fixed me some leftovers for lunch while she got ready for work also. Gave me a kiss on the cheek before I left. I think I found another LB for her though, I pretty much already knew it was an LB, but never put much thought into it until this morning. You see, I chew Skoal, been doing it since we started dating. She's always said she didn't like it much, but it's one of those things you over look when you're "in love". In the last few years, she's used it as an excuse for why she didn't kiss me much, I know it to be partly true, I also know it's mostly to do with the state of our relationship. Anyway, this morning when she kissed me on the cheek she says "eww, you're chewing already this morning? It smells nasty...". That struck a chord with me, I really need to quit and I'm going to get in to the tobacco cessation class today. I've tried before but it's a tough addiction, especially when I enjoy it so much. Just thought I'd share that tidbit of news with you.

As for mention of the physical affection thing. I surely hope she misses it as much as I do. She says she doesn't think about it at all right now, with anyone. I know she loves physical affection, we were a very physical couple, always were. Sex was a HUGE part of our relationship, HUGE. We were about as open an crazy as anyone could be in that arena (not open to other people). That was one of the reasons that really hurt her with my A. I could never hope to find another woman that could satisfy me like she can, so when I got caught she was devastated not knowing what she did wrong to mkae me want to stray. I think about today and still can't find a REAL answer. Anyway, her comment surprised the heck out of me, made me feel good but kind of stunned me. I'm pretty dang sure it wasn't a come on. If she wanted me to come upstairs she would've asked me. I appreciate you telling me that though. I take it to be another sign of progress I hope. She does give me plenty of compliments so i just assume that it's another. She tells me how good a shape I'm in, how good I look for my age, tells me how all the soccer moms love me. I try not to read into it too much. Sometimes I think it's her way of helping me with my self-esteem, her way of helping distance herself from be by thinkin that if I was confident enough, I'd move on. See how twisted my mind can get? That's why I can't think into things, I can be self-defeating as good as anyone.

Today is good, day by day. Comments like the one she made help them be good but I have to find a way of making them good on my own. As far as how our normal conversation is, I hope it to be like that again. We were so good together. Not long ago either, sometimes all this stuff makes it feel like we never had a good marriage but I know that not to be true. We had a great marriage, one anyone could envy. Goes to show you that even an oak willwith whither without proper care and love.

Thanks again for the support. Keeping busy is definitely a helper. Can't wait to buy a house when I get back to the states. Then I'll have all kinds of projects to keep busy with.

I'll talk to you later Snuggle! More updates to come!


FWH/BS (me)42, FBS/WW 39, married 18 yrs, WW A discovered 3/03/2008, my A discovered 06/2003
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Dino, I fully support 1000% your decision to quit chewing!!!!! OMG, that is a totally gross habit ... sick

Just out of curiosity, what do you enjoy about it? I've never tried it, but I've smelled and it does NOT smell tasty. It even looks yucky. Plus the constant need to spit would totally bug me. I really don't get why guys like it. The only bad habit I like in a man, is pipe smoking. Pipes do smell pretty nice. Otherwise, I am anti all other tobacco products.

When do you find out where you're next job in the states is going to be? That will be pretty exciting. Hope today is another good one smile

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