It's not a bad marriage. It's a done marriage. There's a huge difference between the rationalization of a wayward and the decision of a single person connected only by paper.

I will allow you to believe what you like, but if we get into the crazy legalistic finger-pointing again, it helps nothing. You're not going to change my mind just like you're not going to make me believe in god.

Thanks for the picture of the banana up your butt. Now I have that image to deal with...

When Coho was married when you met her did it matter? Do you think that maybe you would have had a different outcome if she hadn't swung from tree to tree?

I understand that you disagree. The women that you date may hear what you are telling them but once they start to have feelings for you and you are soooo not ready, they will be hurt. That is just the way that goes. Not only that, the types of women that a broken man attracts are usually also broken. They may be beautiful but women that date a man that has just broken up with his wife have very low standards. It is asking for trouble IMO. It will just be more drama. So if that is what you feel you must do, buckle your seat belt back up.

Let's also be completely clear, my children will not be impacted by me dating. They would be impacted by me bringing someone into their life, and that will not occur until I'm healed. I'm not taking any time away from them to do this. Yes I need to make far more informed and healthy choices around relationships. Yes, dating right now is way too soon.

Ugh. Why am I even defending this stuff. What a mess. I'm just tired.

I know that it is hard. I'm on my second marriage remember? My divorce from my first husband was the lowest point in my life until my current husband had an affair. I know the loneliness. I know that it is hard to sit still. Everything is uncomfortable. I made the early dating mistakes. I am not telling you these things based on theories. I have lived them. It takes a long time. Getting a date is easy - too easy. Healing is a lot harder.

I agree the potential for drama is greatly increased and that alone is a good reason to abstain.

When I met Coho, unknown to me until fairly well in, her husband still wanted the marriage. So our relationship was at his expense and her son's expense, making it an affair. It was wrong, and I knew it on some level then, and certainly look at it that way now. When my understanding was that he was out of state and they were separated and the "marriage was dead" I had no problem morally. I knew there was a lot of potential for trouble to be certain, but I wasn't crossing any lines if they were mutually done with the marriage. When I found out he still wanted her, then I had to rationalize the whole thing and that's when it crossed the line. You know when you're cheating and when you aren't. Coho has known all 5 times she's cheated that it was cheating.

Or maybe you learn how to rationalize it? Coho probably doesn't know the difference anymore. You will get through this.

Yeah good point.

Zen...

Your very BEST thinking got you to where you are today...How's that workin' for ya? Have you considered reading any of Dr. Harley's books and perhaps being open to changing your mind? (I'd recommend both Buyers, Renters & Freeloaders and Defending Traditional Marriage) It doesn't sound to me like moral relativity has served you very well thus far, wouldn't you agree? Why would you endeavor to do some of the very same things that got you into this mess in the first place? AND...expect different results? I believe many call that "insanity"...Your call of course...

Mrs. W

Glass houses...

I'm fine with you telling me WHY something is morally wrong, but saying it is just because it is doesn't get us anywhere. Why is me dating now morally wrong?

Lying is wrong because it hurts others. Gay marriage isn't wrong because it doesn't hurt others. Laws and rules are not morals. If it was the law that you could not read the bible, would you follow that law?

I would like to read more of Dr. Harley's books, I truly respect and typically agree with his point of view.

Am I missing something? I think I'm hearing Zen saying he realizes that dating at this point in time, no matter how casual, is a bad idea--even though he flirted with the idea (pardon the pun). Then we got off on a tangent of the legal definition of marriage and its end.

ZW, I think that, if you realize it's really too soon to date right now--no matter how casual, the legality of defining your marriage is a moot point.

Yes, I know, I am just very annoyed by legalistic judgements. I was raised that way and it was horrible. I'm fine being told it's a bad idea to date. Telling me I'm cheating by dating is a vastly vastly different thing and I take great exception to it. I will never cheat.

But you are still married, and any dating IS cheating.

LOL @ "glass houses"...I find it funny that you think of me as a "WS" and therefore I am not allowed to point out anything to you...Zen, it is BECAUSE I WAS a WS that I can see your rationalizations and justifications so easily...I'm no longer a WS BECAUSE I changed the way I thought...completely...totally...utterly...I finally "got" what my mom was trying to teach me all those years when she would say, "Times may change, but morals NEVER do"...Because Zen, there ARE moral absolutes in this world...and if we abide them, they keep us and others SAFE...

Why is dating now morally wrong for you? Because you are MARRIED...Married does NOT equal divorced...Separated does NOT equal divorced...There are no shades of gray...Do you know how many WSs say that their marriage is "over"..."dead"..."they are divorced in their hearts"? Adultery is ALWAYS wrong...period...Holding fast to that particular moral absolute will HELP you, not harm you...

Zen, I'm not shooting at you...I just very badly want you to see what you haven't so far because it will serve you well...it will serve your children well also...that's all...

Mrs. W

P.S. I disagree with you VERY MUCH about gay marriage...Dr. Harley's views don't support gay marriage either...Read Defending Traditional Marriage for his views on that...

I appreciate that you're trying to help me. I knew you would disagree with me about gay marriage, that's why I chose it to illustrate my point.

wow.

You are pretty angry right now huh? Understandable.

Please remember that these people were there for you during some pretty terrible months, months...

Get some sleep. Angry conversations about seemingly esoteric topics won't do you any good.

You've got a lot of history with these people and they have proved faithful to you.

You sound like a wayward right now. I AM RIGHT AND EVERYONE ELSE IS WRONG!

You are searching for something that you know you might find again and it hurts, your spiritual side.

Sorry, no one gonna pull punches here. Anyway, lash away if you choose.

My point is to for Zen to learn to properly assess his mental state--more so than his 'moral' (or married) state. What if it's 8 months from now and he has the divorce decree in his hand but yet he still harbors a lot of rage and resentment and hasn't been able to move on past Coho? Is it ok for him to date then? I don't think so. I think that would be just as wrong as him dating now and it's because of his emotional state.

I agree with you OH, but right now I think ZW would prefer to verbal joust.

That's why I'm trying to get away from the moral discussion. Zen, I think it's more important for you to really assess your emotional state. I 'heard' you state a few pages back, that you didn't think you were in a position to date but were looking for that admiration factor--for women to see you as desirable. I think this is understandable given Coho's complete disregard of your feelings. But try to see WHY you want to be desired. It still seems to be about her (Coho) in some way. Until it's about you/by you/for you, it's not going to be right.

Get your admiration EN filled by family and friends.

So you had an affairriage. Affairriages usually do not last. You were the OM. You made yourself part of their marriage. You justified sleeping with a married woman. No wonder now you justify dating while still married to WW.

For good measure, they cheat with you they cheat on you.

Learn from this and move on.

You are reaping what you have sowed.

I only feel bad for the effects on the first marriage kids and the second set if you and WW had any.

It's a bad idea to date.