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If he does go through IM's at some point today, you can be merciful if you want.

However, I think in the future you should expect 24 hours notice. He shouldn't have the luxury of calling up and seeing the kids a couple hours later.

If he doesn't give proper notice, the visit doesn't happen. Period. You can't be always wondering when he's going to take the whim of trying to see them, and figuring out if you can do it this time but not that time, etc., etc...

This needs to be reasonable for you. Always think, "What would a divorce look like?" Cause there's not a judge in the world that will tell you that you need to be Johnny-on-the-spot for him.

Also, for tonight, I think leaving the boys with the IM's and having them send notice that if he wants to see the boys, they will be available between this time and this time, is an acceptable compromise. For the boys' sake, not WS.

At first you need to stick even harder to your guns. It's easier to get WS trained that way.

Oops, that might have been a DJ.



A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



Neak's Story
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I like your idea better. smile

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Just read what you posted while I was posting.

Quote
"Dear WH, We understand that you wrote to the children to tell them you would see them today. Unfortunately, they already have plans and will be unavailable.

They will be ready by 8 am on Saturday. Please contact us with the time you will be picking them up from and returning them to their home on Saturday, so we can pass this information on to BW.

Thank you
IM"

IMO, your IM's need to push this issue a little more, even if it's just adding, "It is not acceptable for you to send messages through the children. Visitation needs to be set up via the IM's."

As is, the message seems more like, "Well, it didn't work this time - they already had plans..." instead of "This will never work. Don't bother to try again. If you try again get ready to be disappointed again."

Of course it's the second one you want to convey, just a bit more tactfully. wink


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



Neak's Story
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Well IM sent my version of an email message. I am getting ready to go out although I still have no place to go but I will figure it out. We will go visiting I think and then when it is close to bedtime we will come home.

Well, here's hoping it will work out. Maybe he will realize I mean business. Thanx all. I was having a weak moment and a "I DON"T KNOW WHAT TO DO" moment but I am passed that now. I'll catch up later tonight. Hopefully the storm will be over by then.


BW(Me)aka Scotty:37
DSx2: 10,12
DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09
Plan B Dec18/09
Personal R in works
Scotty's THING laugh
Newly Betrayed click here


Praying for walls and doors. Thanx MM

“Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.”
? Maya Angelou

PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION

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Quote
As is, the message seems more like, "Well, it didn't work this time - they already had plans..." instead of "This will never work. Don't bother to try again. If you try again get ready to be disappointed again."


Excellent, Neak!!!

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>Of course it's the second one you want to convey, just a bit more tactful

Like a 2x4 wrapped in nerf with a good, thick coating of bubblewrap so it sounds really neat when used.


I never had to take the Kobayashi Maru test until now. What do you think of my solution?

O'hana means family, and family means nobody gets left behind or forgotten.

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Another suggestion?

Add to the message that the IM's send him something to the effect of "It's not acceptable for you to use the boys and their email account as a way to deliver messages. It's not good for them. Don't do this again, or we'll have to pull the plug on their email account."

JMHO... -Chel


Wolf, not Cougar
Why wolf? Wolves mate for life.
BW-40 WH-38 M 18 years, together 21
Bomb drop 10/13/2008. EA +some physical, plus disclosure of long term porn addiction and "gaslighting" campaign to isolate me from our social circle
2 False recoveries 10/22/2008 and 2/10/2009. Separated since 10/5/2009 when he refused to get treatment for his binge drinking. Divorce final October 2010.
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Originally Posted by Wolf_not_Cougar
Another suggestion?

Add to the message that the IM's send him something to the effect of "It's not acceptable for you to use the boys and their email account as a way to deliver messages. It's not good for them. Don't do this again, or we'll have to pull the plug on their email account."

JMHO... -Chel

IMO this is too preachy and will alienate WH against the IMs. (not sayin' it's inaccurate)

The IMs need to remain Switzerland neutral.

Last edited by Pepperband; 12/22/09 03:28 PM.
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I have one question and that is have you got a custody arrangement in place? And how reliable is your H to honor that agreement. I just heard from a guy who has custody of his children he was concerned if his WW had the children on visitation and she did not return them he had little recourse to get them back. He needed to have the custody of the children determined by the court so his rights were established and he had recourse.

This may not apply to you but better safe than sorry. I know the kids want to see him but would he use them to force you to break Plan B?

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I totally agree with this BCboy. If there is no custody order in place (temporary or otherwise) both parents have the right to the children. There would be nothing she could do if WH decided to keep the kids, except file a custody case and try to get an emergency hearing.


Widowed 11/10/12 after 35 years of marriage
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“In a sense now, I am homeless. For the home, the place of refuge, solitude, love-where my husband lived-no longer exists.” Joyce Carolyn Oates, A Widow's Story
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I agree with both Princess and BCBoy. You need a formal custody/visitation arrangement.

"Call IM to set a night that is convenient" is way too vague. And legally I doubt the IM's are qualified to set a visitation.

A formal agreement will help you, and it will help your boys.

I know everyone here has the best intentions, but I don't know what legal grounds you have to keep the boys from WH. I am trying to speak from a casual observer point of view here. Playing devil's advocate if you will.

WH is their legal father and as far as I have read has done nothing to harm the children. I know the affair does great harm, but from a court's perspective, no physical abuse etc...

Has he agreed to the visitation agreement you laid out in the Plan B letter? If the two of you appeared in front of a judge right now what would he be able to argue and what would you be able to argue. What would the judge say? In the eyes of the judge, does the fact that WH is in an affair mean he has no rights to see his kids? Or a better question, does he get to have no say on when he can see them? I honestly don't know.

You have shown enormous courage and have done great so far. Just make sure you have all your legal ducks in a row.

I may be concerned about this for no reason. Maybe someone else has better insight than I, or knows the legalities of the situation better, can chime in.

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The Pepster is right.

If the plug is to be pulled on the boys' email account, it just needs to be done. No warning, just done.

It's always a good idea to look into legal options, still, many many BS's have gone into Plan B with no legal visitation in place. Not to say there never have been, or never could be problems from this, however in most cases the WS and OP have this part-time parent fantasy. No matter what they might say or threaten, they don't really plan on having all of everybody's kids full-time.

Get info, but don't stress.


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



Neak's Story
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Scotland discussed her idea for child visitation w/ WH the day he left the home. He agreed that she was being more than fair about visitation.

What WH disagrees w/ is Scotland NOT allowing him to visit the children in her home. Apparently, he can only get OW to agree to let his children over if she is given enough "notice"...he said he might be able to have them over after Christmas.

He hates Plan B, wants nothing to do w/ the IM, and would rather badger Scotland into going back to Plan A.

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Yes, I do know that WH has rights to the children. IMHO if I were to go in front of a judge today there is nothing that looks bad on me. I set out a plan that he would have visitations for the children. I am saving myself from further abuse from adultery by saying I want no contact with him. I have set up IM so he can visit with his children at any time.

I told him the day he was leaving that if he called IM and said "I want to bring the children out for ice cream tomorrow. Can you let BS know and get back to me." that would be ok as long as they didn't have previous engagements. He hasn't even attempted to call IM and they were actually HIS friends first. He is mad at me because he is sending messages through the kids and that is NOT ok with me. WH may not be able to keep all of his emotions out of statements to them.

He has sent me emails and left messages on my answering machine(until I unplugged it). I asked for NO CONTACT and he hasn't followed that at all.

I also have a problem with the fact that he wants to visit them in their home. I told him he needs to take them somewhere else not here.

I do know that he could take them on Saturday and not bring them home. I don't think he will do that but if he does I will act swiftly. I know from experience with the court system in this area what would happen.

My WH sister left her husband 4 1/2 years ago and took her daughter. She kept her from her H for 90 days. When the judge heard that all he did was ask her if the father could have her for 4 hours that day. She said "sure" and she still got full custody. My SIL was even pregnant with OM child at the time so I know how A doesn't really affect child custody at all.

My SIL's XH was told that judges are usually men in their 50's who were raised by Moms so they believe that the Mom is the best place for the children.

I have stated before that I think there are a couple of reasons that WH doesn't want to bring the kids to OW house. Our DS6 can be a handful at times. WH has little patience for his attitude and he can overreact at times. It is not TOO bad but that would break his "I AM PERFECT" facade in OW eyes.

Also, my children are 2 ACTIVE boys. They don't stop moving. OW will only be used to an 11 year old girl. She may LB WH by not liking or even getting mad at the children. These are just my thoughts.

I knew that if I caved today that WH would keep trying to get a little more. He was here and he tried to call 6 times but we were out. We just got home 1/2 an hour ago.

I asked the boys if they wanted to call Daddy and tell him GN but they said they wanted to write an email instead. I said ok and helped them write exactly what they wanted to say. NO EDITING.

I am sticking to a DARK Plan B. As far as what the IM wrote to WH, I believe it was appropriate in this sitch. I want him to contact them and I feel that if they are too hard on him right away he will say they are against him and never want to contact them and he will be able to use THAT against me.






Last edited by Scotland; 12/22/09 09:00 PM.

BW(Me)aka Scotty:37
DSx2: 10,12
DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09
Plan B Dec18/09
Personal R in works
Scotty's THING laugh
Newly Betrayed click here


Praying for walls and doors. Thanx MM

“Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.”
? Maya Angelou

PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION

THANK YOU
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Scotland you are in Ontario. All you need to do is write an agreement and have it signed by a witness and it is legal!!! The courts will hold this up unless there is evidence that the children are in physical danger. Even if you wrote it on toilet paper, this would be enough. We are in do-it-yourself divorce land.

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Thanx Tabby.....Good to know. I will get right one that one but not on TP that is a IMPORTANT in this house hehehehehe.

I guess I will just have to pick the evening of the week that WH will get since he hasn't picked one yet. How does Wednesday nights sound? I am going to write it out now laugh


BW(Me)aka Scotty:37
DSx2: 10,12
DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09
Plan B Dec18/09
Personal R in works
Scotty's THING laugh
Newly Betrayed click here


Praying for walls and doors. Thanx MM

“Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.”
? Maya Angelou

PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION

THANK YOU
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Originally Posted by Marshmallow
Scotland discussed her idea for child visitation w/ WH the day he left the home. He agreed that she was being more than fair about visitation.

What WH disagrees w/ is Scotland NOT allowing him to visit the children in her home. Apparently, he can only get OW to agree to let his children over if she is given enough "notice"...he said he might be able to have them over after Christmas.

He hates Plan B, wants nothing to do w/ the IM, and would rather badger Scotland into going back to Plan A.


This IS the case


Me 56 Former BS
Widowed 5-17-09 --married 25 years.
4 children
DS-35 previous marriage--18-22 DGrandSons 6 and 4
Me former BS
DD-29 with DGDs 5 and 1yr
DSs 26 and 23
Teilhard de Chardin..“We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience.” ...Sounds about right to me.
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He wants to eat cake when the the mood strikes him also. No discipline. He will be Mr wonderful and cater to OM and her child,(sorry Scotland, I know that hurts), and wont impose on OM with his children.

Its so hard to see a grown Man hurt someone like Scotland just so he can live in a fantasy. This is why plan B is so important for everyone.
She needs to protect whatever love is left and because she is the one who is being fair and considerate
He needs to see that thier are consequences for selfish behavior.

Even if he never came back it would still be healthier for all in the long run. Otherwise we end up catering to ppls entitlement issues instead of cherishing each other.


Me 56 Former BS
Widowed 5-17-09 --married 25 years.
4 children
DS-35 previous marriage--18-22 DGrandSons 6 and 4
Me former BS
DD-29 with DGDs 5 and 1yr
DSs 26 and 23
Teilhard de Chardin..“We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience.” ...Sounds about right to me.
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SO- don't worry about that hurting me about OW and her child. I already know and actually argued with him about that very fact before I found MB. I was angry but I only told him the thoughts that I knew would be true. It was probably a lot of DJ in there as well but at the time I did what I thought was right.

Now I see what I was doing and I know I will be better. I know either way that I will be ok and our children will be ok but I have to make sure I put us through the least amount of pain while we are transitioning.

I asked my sister if her XH will be coming over Christmas morning to watch their kids open presents and she laughed. EXACTLY my point to my WH. He needs a taste of what D would be like and figure out if that is what he wants.

I AM doing what is best for my kids. If WH were to visit them in their own home they would relive the day he left over and over again. They may even get their hopes up that he maybe wouldn't leave that time. I have to protect them from what I can. I CAN'T protect them from everything but I am going to do my best.


BW(Me)aka Scotty:37
DSx2: 10,12
DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09
Plan B Dec18/09
Personal R in works
Scotty's THING laugh
Newly Betrayed click here


Praying for walls and doors. Thanx MM

“Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.”
? Maya Angelou

PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION

THANK YOU
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HA, just logged in to yahoo and saw this. What a laugh for me because honestly there was nothing on this that applied to me and my sitch.

1. Cell phone habits change. Turning on vibrate, increase in calls.
2. Shopping for a 'new' wardrobe. Hip younger clothes.
3. Increase in business travel.
4. Changing email passwords and creating new email accounts.
5. Heading straight into the shower when arriving home.
6. Changing an established routine at home and work for no logical reason.
7. An increase of gifts or charges on the credit card statements.
8. Credit card or bank statements are no where to be found.
9. The sex frequency has changed.
10. Change in attitude, looking for excuses to leave late at night.


BW(Me)aka Scotty:37
DSx2: 10,12
DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09
Plan B Dec18/09
Personal R in works
Scotty's THING laugh
Newly Betrayed click here


Praying for walls and doors. Thanx MM

“Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.”
? Maya Angelou

PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION

THANK YOU
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