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*** LINK *** to MB acronyms and abbreviations. (so you don't waste time trying to figure it out on your own)

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You ok today amy?


Me -BS 40
Him - FWH 34 (dtl)
3 D-Days from 12/25/10 to 01/06/11
NC - 01/09/11
02/20/12 done beating my head on that wall.
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I don't even know what to say, guys. I'm just in total despair at all times. I have no idea what to do with myself...I've never felt such horrific pain in my entire life. It's killing me slowly.


ME: BW
Schlag: FWH or WH... who knows. 2 PA's, many EA's and other issues.
1st D-DAY and false recovery: 9/11/09
2nd D-DAY 10/15/11
D filed on 11/22/11.
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Can you gather family and friends around? Is there a way Schlag can afford a nanny/AuPair for help?

I remember these days so well. There is nothing at this moment that will aide the pain - you have to work through it with time only.

I strongly encourage you to surround yourself around family and friends. Let them help you. They can help you hold the baby while nursing if you need.

Cry and let it out - yell in the basement if you need. Whatever you can find to make your comfort level better. Hire a housekeeper if you need housework complete.

{{{Amy}}}

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Originally Posted by Amalynn5
I don't even know what to say, guys. I'm just in total despair at all times. I have no idea what to do with myself...I've never felt such horrific pain in my entire life. It's killing me slowly.

Who do you have that is close to you emotionally and is close by in order to help you through this?......family?.....friends?
Those who Love you will HELP you....lean on them.....lean on Us!!!
I'm a Rookie.....just 4 months past D-Day.....there are people here with MUCH BETTER advice and experience then me.
PLEASE post here on a daily basis....let us help you......let the Marriage Builder Veterans steer you through this.
Yes it hurts.....we know....you can find help here.
BIG HUG to you Amy.


BH(Me)= 55
WW(Her)=43
DD=24 (My step-daughter, been raising her since the age of 8, SHE'S MY DAUGHTER!!)
Married=13 yrs
Together=16.5 yrs
THIS IS MY STORY
WW moved out of the home = May 1,2011
D-Day=July 4, 2011
Dear Wife: I'm COMPLETELY CRAZY about you!.....as of Aug-2012 forget that last part....Good Luck to you and GOODBYE!!
"Mourn the woman she was. Know the woman she is."
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Amy,

I feel the pain you are feeling today, I have also been in that horrible place, in disbelief, shattered world........
Every day I want you to take care of yourself and have no expectations, try to come to terms with what life is now, it is different but you are still here, you just have to figure out a new way to live in this world.........
You need to just get through one moment at a time, you don't need to make any decisions right now, not until you are healed a little more, and you can think straight again, it took me about 3 weeks......just getting through each day........
Then I could think again, and make some choices for myself........I would go see your doctor and try to get something short term to take the edge off, I did that and felt a lot better it is more than we are equipped to deal with by ourselves..

Figure out what you need now.........take care of yourself........


BW 56
WH 57
Married 25 years, live together for 2, dated 2 years before that.....
DS 23, DS 25
D-Day Nov 23/09
NC Mar 1/10
Working on Recovery
Grateful for finding Marriage Builders
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Amalynn,

This is a roller coaster ride, and we know how you are feeling.

It will help you to post here and tell us your feelings. Just writing down how you are feeling can help you get through the moment. Sometimes someone can say just the right thing, or sometimes just knowing someone is here and posting back a simple hello can help you through that bad hour.

What you are feeling is normal for the days and weeks immediately after d-day. You can expect mood swings - you may hate him then want him, then cry over it, and the constant thoughts are going to just be there. Knowing it is normal may not help to stop it, but it helps to know its normal.

It might help you to plan for eating, especially since you are breastfeeding. Your baby needs you healthy.



You asked how your husband can say he loves you, and still do this?

I asked this very same question.

I think I found an answer in something called "compartmentalization". Some people are able to separate the act of sex from the act of lovemaking. For people like you and me, we just do not do this. The two things are inextricably linked. We think of sex as being something we do that is entangled with the emotion of love. We do not separate them.

For some people, however, this is not the case. Sex is a separate and stand-alone event. Love is, also. Some people do not necessarily associate the two, although they can, and do, when certain people who are love-interests are involved. So when they have sex with a person they are in love with, then the love-sex connection is active. When they have sex with someone else, it is a separate thing - compartmentalized - to the sex only zone. A different compartment in their head.

We all compartmentalize to some degree. We keep work thoughts at work, for example. We say things like, "leave work at the door" when we get home, so we can relax ourselves and our minds once we get to the house. That is a type of compartmentalizing.

Some people can take this to an extreme. They can separate things like emotions, and do it in a way that seems cold and callous. It is almost inhuman.

Think about people who are sociopaths - I wonder how their compartments work, for example.

Anyway, that's my idea about how someone could love you and do something like this. They separate it out so completely, it seems to be a separate part of life to them.


then, when you find out - the reality crashes in on them, and those nice little cardboard compartments collapse.


They just really are not as effective as they thought, in the end. Sometimes they are quite artificial after all, these compartments.


SB


Lucky to be where I am, in a safe place to get marriage-related support.
Recovered.
Happy.
Most recent D-day Fall 2005
Our new marriage began that day. Not easily, but it did happen.
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Hi Amalynn,

Thinking about you an just want to send you good wishes. Plus some hugs and hope you have some RL hugs to get through this difficult time.

You are doing great and are clearly a strong person. Breathe, eat, sleep, those are your jobs!


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Thanks everything- still truckin on.

WH wants me to install a keylogger on our home computer. I just googled "ways to fool a keylogger" and there were a TON of websites to do just that. So........is just installing this pointless since he can get past it? I need someone to private message me the spying techniques please!!!!!!


ME: BW
Schlag: FWH or WH... who knows. 2 PA's, many EA's and other issues.
1st D-DAY and false recovery: 9/11/09
2nd D-DAY 10/15/11
D filed on 11/22/11.
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Originally Posted by Amalynn5
Thanks everything- still truckin on.

WH wants me to install a keylogger on our home computer. I just googled "ways to fool a keylogger" and there were a TON of websites to do just that. So........is just installing this pointless since he can get past it? I need someone to private message me the spying techniques please!!!!!!
Amy, there is an entire forum here on spying techniques, called Operation Investigate.

We do not have the facility for private messaging on MB.

The problem is that your H asked you to install the keylogger. Once he knows about it he doesn't have to find ways to fool it - he just needs to use another computer. I'm sure there are internet cafes or public libraries that he could go to.

The same goes for his reading here and seeing this post, or reading in Operation Investigate. Once he knows what you are doing he can bypass that route.


BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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So.......a keylogger is pointless huh? All of his offenses (porn, cheating websites, hiring an excort, CL ads, and facebook) have been online, so how can I allow him to be online for just normal things like gaming, news reading, leisure surfing etc. without wondering what he's doing? I probably don't huh? Ugh, I don't want to be in a marriage where I can't trust anything he's doing!

And what about his job? He's talked to his boss and his bosses boss and I'm not sure they can do anything about blocking his internet. They've already said they can't block just facebook and he needs the internet/email for his job. He works for the gov't with a security clearance and I can't install anything on his work computer or anything. He has a good job here in southern CA and with 4 kids he can't just up and quit, but I don't trust him for a SECOND in his office in front of a computer with the internet. That office is where almost every affair and wrong-doing started and took place because I can't see what he's doing and can't access his e-mail from home.

HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


ME: BW
Schlag: FWH or WH... who knows. 2 PA's, many EA's and other issues.
1st D-DAY and false recovery: 9/11/09
2nd D-DAY 10/15/11
D filed on 11/22/11.
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I am a BS too, and I'm gonna be blunt with you.

You are uncomfortable with his job and want someone to tell you how you can stay married, he keeps his job and the good living it provides and that you can trust him to be different when nothing has changed.

Ain't gonna happen.

You need to decide what you want, your family to stay together and marriage to rebuild, or his child support with his good job.

Which do you want?

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Originally Posted by Amalynn5
Ugh, I don't want to be in a marriage where I can't trust anything he's doing!

Amy, Herb is right. it was too much trust that led to his past affairs. It is not a lack of trust that ruins marriages, but a lack of boundaries. And your husband has no boundaries. As long as he has access to an unsupervised computer, he will be tempted to have affairs. As I suggested to him, he needs to find a job where you CAN monitor his computer at all times. He doesn't have to quit that job outright, but he should be looking for a low security job where you have access to his computer. I would find a way to make that happen.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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But if a keylogger is easily fooled, how would that help me?? ugh. frown


ME: BW
Schlag: FWH or WH... who knows. 2 PA's, many EA's and other issues.
1st D-DAY and false recovery: 9/11/09
2nd D-DAY 10/15/11
D filed on 11/22/11.
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Amy,

I would suggest looking up TST/HerPapaBear's posts. His first thread
Her long story line thread

A couple things you will notice - TST was very reluctant to truly change his behaviors - they had a false recovery while she was still willing to save the marriage.

Notice when the tide started turning? Where you are right now and don't want recovery?

Here is where you get to see what your husband is made of and what value he has to you.

There is time to watch as you start down the path of protection because you have the power to stop the divorce process at any time. But here are the clues to watch for - and he will not be able to fake this.

1. He must accept that he has done irreparable harm to you and the marriage and be willing to do right by you anyway. This will show up in several different ways:
a. Respect for boundaries - If you ask him to go away, he will, but he will still seek ways to do quiet kindnesses for you without the pity-party-give-up game he's playing with himself right now.
b. He will want to regain his honor and self-respect as a man. That means recognizing that he and he alone is the cause of his grief and he will have no expectations that you reciprocate any kindnesses he might do
c. He would initiate contact with Steve Harley and if he has to work extra jobs flipping burgers at McDonalds, he would do that to come up with the fees to pay for this service because HE NEEDS TO TAKE THE INITIATIVE to get to the bottom of how to change his behavior.
d. He would stop asking you to be his mother, his policeman and his parole officer. It's not your responsibility to put on spyware to catch him or watch over his emails so that you can trust him. The fact is because he's unwilling to do the heavy lifting is why you know you can't trust him, not because you can't prove he's untrustworthy!
e. He would be doing the research, digging into his soul, finding an accountability partner with his church and whatever else he must do to prove TO HIMSELF that he can be trusted.
f. He will stop asking you for another chance after another chance after another chance. He will simply get up in the morning do kindnesses, serve you and your family, go to work, work hard, focused and determined, and circulate his resume to cut ties with his past while providing for his family.
g. His activities after work will be focused on family, relieving your burden, helping you in any way without hovering, begging for another chance. His focus will be different. It will feel different.
2. He will he will offer to take a polygraph. You come up with the toughest yes or no questions to the top four issues that would give you peace.
3. He will see to it that a postnup is created, and legally documented, witnessed and accounted for. The title to ALL assets will be moved into your name alone RIGHT NOW - not in the event he betrays you once again. He will leave himself completely financially vulnerable, with the understanding that this is not a contract for yet one more chance. This is his way of taking responsibility for what he has done, and leaving himself completely exposed to your whims as you have been to his whims for infidelity - give you the choice to still walk away without giving him another chance, but if you choose to, with less risk than if you were taking him back without those guarantees.

There are certain behaviors that cannot be faked. Eventually TST got past the faking point. But it took a LONG time. You won't see the first glimmers in Sexymamabear's 96 page thread until well into the 68th page - where she describes him as broken. You'll find her requirements to be very freeing and comforting to your mind:
Quote
REQUIREMENTS TO COMING HOME

Humility

Remorse

Surrender emotionally before me and spiritually before God

Godly sorrow (not fleshly sorrow) (Godly: sorry that I ever had the A & did this to our family. Fleshly: sorry I hurt you)

Authentic repentance

Owns his choices and the consequences they caused (to himself, me, children, extended family, friends, etc.)

Apology for the A and his hurtful actions before and after

Confession & apology to children

Confession to extended family & certain close friends that have confronted him

IC, MC, & Family C

Accountability forever to 3 men that I choose

Attend church again

NC Letter

Provide all cell phone & credit card records from this past year

Complete radical honesty about our entire history together

15+ hours together weekly

Pray with me daily

Polygraph

Post Nup agreement that provides for me very well if we ever divorce

Beware until you see true fruits of remorse - this pity party he's throwing right now is not convincing. Keep your guard up and move forward, and watch.

Growing up takes over 20 years for many people. Some can't do it in a lifetime, let alone in a few weeks after they realize their selfish immaturity is going to cost them dearly.

Trust that you'll know it when you see it. You know in your heart right now where things are.


Cafe Plan B link http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2182650&page=1

The ? that made recovery possible: "Which lovebuster do I do the most that hurts the worst"?

The statement that signaled my personal recovery and the turning point in our marriage recovery: "I don't need to be married that badly!"

If you're interested in saving your relationship, you'll work on it when it's convenient. If you're committed, you'll accept no excuses.
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Originally Posted by Amalynn5
But if a keylogger is easily fooled, how would that help me?? ugh. frown

A keylogger is not easily fooled. Nor can he hide too much if you have the password to his work email account.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Kayla- thanks, I'll look that up tomorrow.

Melody- google has all sorts of sites that talk about getting around it. Are those true? Also, he's just opened up many "fake" e-mail accts in the past to facilitate affairs...so having the passwords to the e-mail accts I know about doesn't seem to mean much. frown


ME: BW
Schlag: FWH or WH... who knows. 2 PA's, many EA's and other issues.
1st D-DAY and false recovery: 9/11/09
2nd D-DAY 10/15/11
D filed on 11/22/11.
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Amy, frankly I wouldn't trust the key things he says unless its confirmed by polygraph. And no matter his words, his actions are going to be FAR more important to you I think than words.

My wife's words meant little for a long time to me, I wanted, demanded and I guess hoped she would also back up those words with actions, and she did. But hope wasn't a plan as you will hear here very often. WE got help from a great old lady, a psych lecturer, who thought much of what MB says was sensible and agreed to use it along with her own no nonsense approach. And yeah I admit I needed it as much as my darling wife.

Your WH seems to have owned up to a lot of things, except maybe owning up to FULL responsibility. He acknowledges it intellectually but I'm not sure he accepts it emotionally. Those "buts" seem to hang in the air after each comment to me.

Thats not that unusual though at this stage of the game. My wife had countless reasons. Not one excuse. You can ask her these days she'll tell you it herself.

I would suggest you do get a poly done for those key questions you have, answers won't be pleasant and frankly EXPECT the worst, more than he has said and you won't be taken by surprise. IF he has told you the full truth it at least rests those demons right?

The onther thing I would do is book sessions with Dr Harley here.

And lastly, get your HUBBY to do the running around to set this all up SUBJECT to your approval. The action means louder than words requirement.

As for money to pay for the poly and sessions, then hubby can do without the online games, a few beers and anything else that has taken him away from you and the family. Its his time to stand up and be counted. NOW!!

And the key logging work arounds, well even if they are there thats ok, you install the key logger of your choice and then at odd times with no warning have a local tech come out and check nothing is in the pc that does the work arounds. And your hubby gives up something to pay for that as well.

I think its entirely fair and reasonable for any betrayed spouse to know the facts as much as they want BEFORE deciding to work on the M or not. Even doing the sessions with the Harleys will not change that option and from what I remember its never been about marriage at any price or cost. It wasn't for me.

Marriagebuilders or not, Harley has always said some marriages should end. I do think you should try to find out if yours can be saved or not but really its your choice and of course your hubby has to also agree to step up.

Amy, my wifes affair was discovered by her OMs wife and exposed by my wifes own mum to just about everyone, I was deployed at the time and learnt about it on my return. It was [censored] and right on par with the death of our little boy some months before, someways even worse.

And YET, even with all of those things, and yes some fault on both sides for the state of our relationship, well we WORKED on it and no it was not easy. We have made it and we are happy together, perhaps at last in a long time. Its easy to drift apart when you are away from each other so often.

I want to give you some confidence, no not hope, that its not impossible to regain or even in some circumstances to discover you can have a worthwhile, loving, caring and exciting, marriage after what seems to be such bitter selfish and unforgiveable behaviour.

Storybook endings are for kids, oh don't think I never had that wish like most people because I did, but working hard every day on your marriage is THE reality for adults. And though its difficult for you to believe right now, it can be fun and rewarding.

I would encourage you to find out if your hubby can be the man and husband you expect him to be. He won't be perfect no one is. But a loving faithful husband and father with a steely determination to never cause you and his family such pain again, yeah that would good right?

just give it some thought, its your choice.


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Originally Posted by Amalynn5
Melody- google has all sorts of sites that talk about getting around it. Are those true? Also, he's just opened up many "fake" e-mail accts in the past to facilitate affairs...so having the passwords to the e-mail accts I know about doesn't seem to mean much. frown
Amy, I need to say more about my post in which I said there was no point to a keylogger if he knows about it. I was in rather a hurry when I wrote it.

I DO have keyloggers on the two PCs in my home. I have never mentioned the word or concept "keylogger" to my H, and I am quite certain that he does not know that such things exist or that there is one recording everything he does here. It was a keylogger that picked up, first, his browsing OW's social network site, just once in April 2011, and then picked up a couple of emails sent to her later that month. I would recommend a keylogger to anyone.

The first email said "Here is my home email address. This is the only way you will be able to contact me when I retire in 3 weeks." Until then, for 8 years, the affair had been conducted via the workplace computer, landline and mobile. Like your H, my H's job involved security and he was not allowed to access his work email from outside the building. That meant, sadly, that I could not access it either, and there was point in asking for the password.

I knew that his imminent retirement in May 2011 would require him to use the home PC to keep in contact with OW, and I was right. He had barely ever touched the home PC for all the years we had owned it. He hates technology and gets in a real state trying to learn how to use it. He had to use it for work, but did not want to use it at home - but I knew that retirement would change all this, and it did. I am very glad that I had a keylogger on the PC.

The second email from this home PC in April was a catch-up email that showed that they had not met for 5 years, but planned to do so soon. When I read that, I first consulted a lawyer about divorce, then re-exposed to her H, then told my H that the game was up. At first he said he was leaving because I had been a witch and exposed, but two days later he asked to stay, and I made him contact the Harley coaching centre as a condition of staying. He did that, and sent a NC letter to OW's home. After that we began the online course and we are now in a tentative recovery. However, I still have keyloggers on both PCs and I can see he has never browsed any sites OW is on, not contacted her directly, nor had contact from her.

However, I do know what my H and OW did during the 8 years until we reached this point, and that is what I want to warn you about.

When I first discovered the affair when it was 6 weeks old (2003), he made sure that I never again discovered anything like condoms in the house - not that I ever looked.

When I discovered after two years (2005) that I had been in a false recovery and the affair was now deeply entangled, with talk of "love" and "waiting until the kids had grown, to be together", my H stopped bringing his mobile phone home from the office (I rediscovered the affair by reading their text messages).

At that point I knew that he would lie and hide things, but because the affair was conducted entirely at work I could not spy. Any opportunistic discovery I made was learned from and digested by them, and the affair partners simply changed their behaviour. My H told me that I was paranoid and asked me not to break up the family and hurt the kids when he had done what I asked and stopped contacting her. (This was all lies, you understand.)

When I finally discovered this forum and exposed to OWH, the couple apparently had a big falling out because my H chose to stay with me, and I was assured that the phone contact had finally ended. That was in 2007, and for four years until the events of 2011 I described above, I had no way of confirming that intermittent phone calls - perhaps one every six months - were continuing, to "keep in touch". I knew that they must be in touch because of the depth of the affair, but again, I was lied to, and felt that I could not break up the family based on only my suspicions.

Well, they "kept in touch" until her husband decided to retire early and go back to their country of origin. (We live in England and she lives in Belgium.) At that point, she knew that she could not be watched properly by her H, and proposed a meeting after he left Belgium. My H was only too happy to agree to meet her - not for sex, you understand. (Yeah, right.)

I didn't have time to write all this out for you yesterday, but I do not want you to have the impression that keyloggers are easily got round and that you shouldn't bother with one. What am trying to say is that if your H is still wayward - and you should assume the worse on this for many months to come - then, if he reads here and sees your plans, he will simply not contact his girlfriend from your home PC. There are always other PCs. He can go to an Internet cafe or the public library or the Apple shop, which has about a million Macs all hooked up to the Internet, all free, and you will not be able to trace this activity. That is quite apart form the secret, pay-as-you-go affair phone that he can buy and hide at work.

There are some spouses whose decision to have an affair is an aberration of character. When discovered, although they might not stop the affair dead straight away, they are horrified at what they have done and will go back to the marriage, broken. HerPapaBear was one of those; a devoted, happy husband for 20 years, with whom SexyMamaBear had a good marriage. He changed into someone unrecognisable when he had his affair, and did things that were in some ways worse than your H or mine; he left home to live with his ho, then lied about the affair being over, moved back home and out again, breaking the hearts of his 5 children several times. Your H and mine didn't do anything like that.

But when HPB had his come-to-Jesus, it was real and it and "broke" him. He wanted out of his affair and he wanted his wife and children back. He was a sobbing, broken mess and his wife knew that she had her husband back (although recovery was hard, as it always is).

Your H and mine are nothing like HPB. They were comfortable with their affairs for a long time, and it does not seem that these were aberrations of character. It seems to me that our Hs are very happy to have free nookie on the side while enjoying contentment in the marriage, and they have no conscience about doing wrong. They might not even see affairs as wrong per se - they are just a bad idea because they are always found out and people get hurt. My H regrets what he did, I believe, because it hurt me, the kids (who know all the details), her family and OW (bletch), but I don't think he regrets the basic immorality of affairs, according to what he has said to me on this.

Your H and mine are dangerous WSs and you and I must only trust what we can verify. We must assume that if they want to carry out their activities, they will simply get around any spying techniques that they know we are using.

I am only "trusting" my H right now because he is retired - and thus has no access to a workplace PC or landline - and because he is at home most of the time. He has no social life without me and no time unaccounted for. Because he does not know I am spying he uses our PCs, on which there is a keylogger, so I know what he does there. He has no mobile phone or other device and nowhere to hide anything in the house or car.

Unless you can bring about circumstances such as mine, in which he changes job and cannot have a secret second life, you cannot be confident that you know what he is doing.

You need to decide how much uncertainty you can live with, and how much you want to be his keeper. I have found a position that I am comfortable with. What reassurances and changes do you need from your H in order for you to to feel secure?



BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,786
M
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M
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,786
I would not allow him any computer time at all. I believe he lost that option, and if there is an emergency for his computer use, then you log him in and stay with him.

I know it seems childish to do this, but he ruined all his chances by using the internet to facilitate his adultery.

If he is serious about restoring your marriage, then the computer becomes ancient history.

Maybe in time when your trust is renewed you can find more options, but for now no Computer at all.

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