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Sunnyd, thanks for your time! I do notice that we will do well right after a coaching session when kiss is really working on our recovery and then that slacks off and I start to feel depressed and angry about everything. But he does know what he needs to do (in fact he has it n writing) but just doesn't seem to care enough to do it. I question if that is the marriage that I want. I want/deserve someone who cares enough about it that I do.

The saying "not marriage at all costs" is ringing through my head.

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Well, you're right: he does need to work the program - and if he already has proper "instructions," he needs to follow through.

I think part of the problem comes from your having more motivation to change things. You've been through the trauma of betrayal that Kiss has not. I've found the same thing with my marriage here and there throughout recovery too: I have to push for things more because my H is just happy to have his family back, etc... so life is really good if you ask him! He didn't have to endure the pain that I did - as Kiss did not have to with you either.

There are times when I'm pushing for us to be better and he is willing, but he's not the one doing the pushing because he's happy and content. I, on the other hand, have to deal with triggers and PTSD, as do you. It isn't that my H doesn't care whether or not our marriage is good - it's that he thinks it really is! So, during the moments where I've had to be the one to ask for more effort, I've always tried to make sure H knows it benefits us both - not just me. I remind him that our marriage HAS to be better than ever - that change IS necessary; otherwise we will end up even worse off that the conditions that led to the A.

If you've explained all this to Kiss and he still isn't doing the work - you guys need to get to the bottom of it. Is he just being lazy? Does he not see change as necessary? Is he being self-centered and just viewing things from the perspective that HE is happy so you should be too?

Get to the root of the cause as to why he's not keeping up his end of the bargain and then you'll know better where things stand.


"The #1 reason why people give up so quickly is because they tend to look at how far they still have to go, rather than how far they've gotten."

Me, FBW(46) H, FWH (43)
M - 21 yrs & counting
D (20)
S (18)
S (16)
Surviving and Thriving since November 2010 thanks to MB!
My Recovery Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538986#Post2538986
My Original Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457141&page=1

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Actually, what you said absolutely makes sense! I think it's what you said that to him things seem really great and that he is happy to have his wife and family back. He always tell me how lucky he is. But I still deal with all the triggers and emotions so I get stuck when it doesn't seem like he is putting in any recovery effort.

This is what I had asked him to do that he hasn't:
Post to the forum on a regular basis for accountability
Continue coaching with SH
Read the books and articles
Schedule UA time
Make amends to family

The fact that he hasn't done these and he knows that they are all very important to me is what bothers me.


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I've spent quite a bit of time reflecting on things this weekend. And I'll admit, it has been a rough weekend emotionally for me. I think I have done a lot as far as cleaning up my side of the street. All the things that kiss complained about, I have changed. I went to "crazy" lengths to "win" my husband back. I have read books and forums and sought advice about fixing my marriage. I have continued with my IC to help me with my personal recovery. I have sacrificed the close relationship with my family because of him. And yet I do not see the same effort put in my him. Why am I trying so hard to fix something he broke?
I'm also not sure that I will EVER be able to get past all the things that he did. It just hurts too much and I still cry on a daily basis over it. I can't help but think that I might have to finally admit defeat. I have tried so hard and I just don't know if I can keep doing it anymore.

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A wise poster said this.
When to Call It Quits - Part 1
In addition to this excellent article here are some excellent radio clips on this.

Please listen to these radio clips on what are the reasons for divorce.

Radio clip at 5:45 When to call it quits
Segment #2


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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HUGS RQ.

Oh gosh, what can I say. I've been on this very brink myself more times than I can count. I won't pretend to have any answers. It is so easy giving advice, everything is so cut and dry. But when you are dealing with a real live human spouse who is not doing everything 'by the book,' it is so much more complicated. Maybe it doesn't have to be, but it is.

Thinking of you RQ. If you want to keep plugging along, we will be here for support. If you are truly ready to move on, we will also be here for support.

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Thanks guys, I know I have a lot of thinking to do but I feel I have been trying to get him to be enthusiastic about things for months now and I just don't see it. I had thought about signing up for the on-line program but worry that would be money down the drain being as he doesn't want to do it. He doesn't bother with any of the free stuff or even re-reading things I have given him so why waste the money? right?

Brain

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Brain- I listened to the radio clip. Thanks. In fact, Dr Harley himself told me that I had every right to call it quits if that is what I chose to do.

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Originally Posted by Rocketqueen
Brain- I listened to the radio clip. Thanks. In fact, Dr Harley himself told me that I had every right to call it quits if that is what I chose to do.
Exactly, my friend.


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Btw, good morning wink

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RQ - sorry you have been having a rough time of it lately. I've been gone for a few days but since you haven't posted further, I assume you are still in the same mindset.

I can tell you that recovery does take TIME. But - time with EFFORT is essential.

I think part of the problem here stems from the fact that you were never tough with kiss on the whole plan B deal. He's "learned" that he can get by with the minimum effort.

Something you need to ask yourself is, is kiss still a renter or freeloader - or has he truly become a buyer in your marriage? If he is a buyer, he should be willing to do the work. What you've asked of him - posting, making amends, reading the books, etc... is not anything out of line. I personally never made it a condition for my H to post, but that is because I knew he was doing the other work; not posting didn't bother me.

When I read everything you're saying, what I get is that you do not feel that kiss has truly owned his actions and taken responsibility for them; he doesn't really get how devastating his actions were. If he did, he would be jumping up and done to make restitution. If that's the case, have you told him this point blank? Did you let him know at the beginning of recovery how hurt you were and what it did to you, or did you skate over all of that?

There's always mistakes when you don't "go through" it all and try to step around these issues in recovery.

If you did go through all of that, then what are kiss' reasons for not giving you just compensation? He needs to understand that you will never heal without it.



"The #1 reason why people give up so quickly is because they tend to look at how far they still have to go, rather than how far they've gotten."

Me, FBW(46) H, FWH (43)
M - 21 yrs & counting
D (20)
S (18)
S (16)
Surviving and Thriving since November 2010 thanks to MB!
My Recovery Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538986#Post2538986
My Original Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457141&page=1

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RQ what's going on lady? I'm a little worried about you, sounds like you have been at a LOW and just wondering how you're doing.

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SunnyD- Your advice always means so much to me and you are right about my Plan b. I know I could have done better but it's too late for regrets now.

Originally Posted by SunnyDinTX
Something you need to ask yourself is, is kiss still a renter or freeloader - or has he truly become a buyer in your marriage? If he is a buyer, he should be willing to do the work. What you've asked of him - posting, making amends, reading the books, etc... is not anything out of line. I personally never made it a condition for my H to post, but that is because I knew he was doing the other work; not posting didn't bother me.

When I read everything you're saying, what I get is that you do not feel that kiss has truly owned his actions and taken responsibility for them; he doesn't really get how devastating his actions were. If he did, he would be jumping up and done to make restitution. If that's the case, have you told him this point blank? Did you let him know at the beginning of recovery how hurt you were and what it did to you, or did you skate over all of that?

That is in a nutshell. I don't understand the why of it. I think that is something kiss needs to ask himself. But he does know how hurt I was and still am (he has also gone over this with SHarley) And I did speak to him a few days ago about how I do not feel like he is putting in that much of an effort. And you know what, it was the same stuff I told him in a letter 3 months ago!

I feel like I am done trying. My IC says that I needed to go through this process (from beginning to end)to know that I gave it my all and to now just watch and see. I'll know when I am ready.

Unwritten - thanks for checking in on me. I have been having a rough time. Depressed and panicky lately. Don't know how much longer I can keep going in this rut.

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Yes, you're right - it's too late for regrets now about the Plan B and I am not trying to club you over the head with that fact. I mention it because I think it helps explain why he isn't feeling the full force of needing to follow the exact steps you have currently laid out for recovery. He's gotten away with less in the past.

You are right to have doubts about the future if he is still acting like a renter or freeloader. It is imperative for true recovery that you have a better marriage than ever before. If that is not true at the 2 year mark of beginning the MB program, it is dangerous territory indeed.

It DOES take a good 2 years to truly recover (WITH EFFORT) from this - no doubt about it. It actually takes longer if both parties are not fully participating.

So, to that end, I am assuming that you, personally, have been following the program and the principles up until now? I'm not saying that kiss' efforts shouldn't exceed or at least match yours - but I can definitely see more effort with my H when I am making it part of conversation and carrying out actions accordingly. I've never minded being the one to lead in this regard - as long as he willingly does his part. I know some BS's feel the WS should be leading. I don't think Dr. H ever says that a WS must lead the efforts but I do understand the feeling that a WS is the one that must make just compensation and show eagerness to heal, etc... It's just that from my perspective, I had been the one doing all the research for months and I was the "sane" one throughout it all. There was no way I wanted someone who had been wayward for a year or so to be "leading" our recovery. (Although, I concede that this depends on one's definition of leading.)

Having said all that, it sounds to me like you have done that. (I only bring this up because you stated you feel like giving up.) You've given him your list of what just compensation looks like to you. Now you have to ask yourself if he is doing some but not enough, or just outright refusing to do it, or is he procrastinating?

To clarify, have you told SH that kiss is not working the program and that's what prompted him to say you have every right to end the marriage if that is the case? Or, is your statement of SH saying you have that right due to the principle that every BS has the right to leave the marriage after infidelity? I am curious as to what the specific advice would be, knowing that the WS is not actively working the program.

Also, how versed is your IC on MB principles?

If I were in your shoes, I would do the following:

I would let kiss know that you cannot recover in a marriage where you have been betrayed and he is not willing to give you just compensation for that. I would specify every way in which you have cleaned up your side of the street. I would then say that it is unacceptable to you that he has not done X, Y, and Z - especially when you have asked for this several times over. How can you possibly feel secure in this marriage when he is refusing to make amends that are reasonable? I would then give him a deadline to complete X, Y, and Z. I would not fight with him about why he isn't willing - because honestly, that's just too dang bad. If he hadn't cheated, he wouldn't be asked to do these things.

No one is saying he has to become best friends with your family or become the #1 poster on these forums.... but, it IS his job to do whatever it takes to make you feel safe and cared for - and to know that he is, indeed, a buyer.

Sometimes people need a deadline to push them towards action. I really think he might be one of those. However, you HAVE to have an exact plan of action AND FOLLOW THROUGH if he does not meet that deadline. You can't be scared of the consequences. You are miserable right now; I assume you don't want to live in misery the rest of your life. If kiss continues to not make you feel safe - how long can you "see this process through" as your IC is suggesting? That's enough to send anyone to the looney bin!!! If I recall, you already had one health scare due to all this. You need to be healthy for yourself and for your kids. I would hate for you to watch and see for too long and end up a shell of a person because you couldn't find the strength to enforce some tough love.

We all sat here and encouraged you to let kiss move home - under the assumption he was working the program and cleaning up his side of the street. If that's not the case, he doesn't deserve to be home.

Without more details it is hard to fully assess the situation. Is he meeting your needs at all? Why is he no longer reading the material, etc... Does he feel like he already has a good grasp on the concepts and is employing them?

I'm trying to get a grasp here on where you both are mentally. I know full well how it can be in the middle of recovery and have doom and gloom slam you - or anger. I went through those times feeling like no efforts would ever be good enough to make me get over what my H had done. Remember, recovery or no recovery, you still go through the stages of grief which include both depression and anger. In the moments of those emotions it really is hard to tell if it's just "normal" stuff you are enduring or if your H is failing to step up to the plate.

If you can look at your situation and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that your H is not working the program in any real, measurable way, it's time for some tough love. Your health depends on it. I would ask for him to prove he means business soon - with a deadline - or go to a real plan B. I would not sit on my hands and do nothing while your mental and physical health decline...









"The #1 reason why people give up so quickly is because they tend to look at how far they still have to go, rather than how far they've gotten."

Me, FBW(46) H, FWH (43)
M - 21 yrs & counting
D (20)
S (18)
S (16)
Surviving and Thriving since November 2010 thanks to MB!
My Recovery Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538986#Post2538986
My Original Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457141&page=1

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Sunny, as always thank you for the time you give me to post such thought-provoking posts. I also went over some of my feelings with my IC (who is not versed in MB principles, per se, but when I explain them to her she understands them- she's really great!). After talking to her and reading your post, this is what I think. That kiss still does not "get it" and doesn't want to. There has really been no soul searching on his part as to the "why" the A happened, no acceptance of "what" and no reflection on the "how". And I think that is the crux of the matter. He only met briefly with an IC, spoke to SH twice, has had very little dealings with the forum and still lacks any accountability. With very little self-reflection on his part, I think that it is why he doesn't understand the just compensation part. Or understand the rightness of making amends. In some ways, I think he is still foggy and un-remorseful. I think some kind counseling for him alone would help him tremendously. But who can afford Steve Harley on a weekly basis? And I didn't feel that the IC/MC we were seeing was really addressing the A. And I don't see kiss really caring anyway.
The needs meeting is getting better, the POJA a little more difficult and the RH needs working on and so does the UA. He has really stepped up on those things the last few days. And I have read "Recovery after an Affair" numerous times and we are following that program but I find that it is not enough to fix this.
At this time, I have given him a deadline. But I think if a WS doesn't get it, then a deadline will not make it happen. Do I want to be with someone who never will? That is the big question. This is part of the e-mail I had received from Dr Bill Harley
" The issue you should address is whether or not your husband is actually doing what we recommend: Eps, POJA, PORH, and POUA. The goal is for your marriage to recover and by doing these things, that will happen. "

So where does this leave me?

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Quote
So where does this leave me?
That leaves you with a decision. He has obviously decided that you will accept him as is. DO YOU? YOU may have to take the next step of ending the marriage. Are you willing to do that?


D-Day 2-10-2009
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Thank you Marriage Builders!

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Well, just had a conversation with him about my thoughts in my above post. Kiss says that he feels like smelly brown poop for what he did, but that there is no way to take it back. That we are 2 different people whereas I like to dwell on stuff and he deals with it and moves on. Do you think I shouldn't be dwelling in it? "I didn't say that" he says. He also alluded to that instead of letting it heal, that it keeps getting picked at. Is that what I am doing? "I didn't say that" he says. So what is your suggestion I asked. To figure out how to heal you so can move past this he says.
OH really?

So there you have it. I'm the one who has to go to counseling, talk to people on forums, take anti-depressants and anti-anxiety meds, read books, and what have you to deal with this brokenness of what he did to me. And he deals with it and moves on.

So, MB, to answer your question, NO, I don't accept that and YES, I am willing to end it. Can you tell I'm a little angry?

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The way you can "move on" from the adultery, as kiss put it, is to have Just Compensation. Your H will need to deposit massive amounts of love units and avoid all love busters, while making the marriage safe. That's the only way to "move past" adultery.

Is he saying he is unable/unwilling to do this? He will not meet your ENs? He will not avoid LBs?

He doesn't understand that he is missing out on the opportunity of his lifetime--to have a really great, healed marriage.


Married 1980
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Longway, he is meeting the en's to a certain extent. That part is getting better. He is not lb'ing. I guess I'm the one who is doing that by demanding more.

So, is the problem me?

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RQ,

He's right, you know. His transgression can never be erased. No answer to how or why will do that. No amount of "getting it" will make it be forgotten.

But, I would suggest that you respectfully inform him that you cannot just choose to "get over" or "move past" this.

The only way is through.

And he can go through it by your side. He SHOULD be by your side.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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