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Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by Rocketqueen
My Mom went and booked the ticket but Kiss does want me to go. I'm not happy about it but can understand to a point why. Yes, I am feeling resentful about it. ..

...I feel if I understood better his reasons, my resentment might not be so bad. And if we can come to some alternative solution, I might not feel like I'm getting the short end here. But he has refused to discuss it more or come to a solution that I feel good about.

The other problem is that when we were discussing this , Kiss said that this is why he doesn't complain to me about something. Because he knows "how you get". I told him that was a huge DJ and that he needs to discuss things with me if he is not happy. After all, that is how his affair started. He was unhappy and didn't tell me. I feel like, once again, the ground that I thought was sturdy is actually shaky and that scares me.
He did tell you that he is unhappy about this and doesn't want you to go, and you are sulking. You are showing your resentment all over your face, so from what you are saying here, he was right to fear telling you that he did not want you to go.

You can't have it both ways. You can't want openness and honesty from him and then at the same time sulk and act moodily and make him even more unhappy that he spoke at all. He is now refusing to discuss it more because you have already made discussion of this issue unpleasant. You've turned this into a fight, which has been destructive to your marriage these past few days, as fighting always is.

A trip like this would be wrong and harmful to your marriage. Kiss does not need to have a deep discussion with you to explain why he feels unhappy about it. It's wrong, and he did the correct thing to ask you not to go. It doesn't matter what you each did in the past; you know now that some of what you did was bad for your marriage, so why would you want to keep doing it?

You have made it unsafe for Kiss to discuss this topic, so if you want to come to an agreement about some other kind of celebration it is going to be up to you make to make some suggestions and make it clear that negotiations will be safe and pleasant, and that Kiss will not be punished for making his feelings known. Of course he's not going to go there again the way this has gone so far!

It's time to grow up, stop sulking and let this drop. You are in danger of using your resentment to punish him because you think he owes you because of his affair.

Ask me how I know this.

Yours,

The Resentment and Sulking Queen.

Thanks, sugarcane for not sugar-coating it! LOL I don't disagree with you and I realize that I need to change my attitude about this. I shudder at the thought of kiss feeling he will have to be on the defensive sharing with me his thoughts about something.

I refuse to plan my own birthday celebration though I am open to ideas from Kiss. wink


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by kerala
Getting into an MB-state-of-mind has its challenges. Taking a vacation with your parents and daughter for your birthday would seem to be wonderful to 99% of people. But it doesn't seem to be in line with MB principles, does it?

Good advice on this thread! I agree that 99% of people would think this would be a great idea, because most people have bad marriages. And this is one of the reasons why. I cringe when people tell me they are taking separate vacations because I know the harm they are inflicting on their marriage. Taking separate vacations is not "in-line" with having a great marriage.

RQ, it is hard to break bad marriage habits and I understand your disappointment. I figure if *I* can learn to abandon independent behavior, then anyone can. There is no activity, no nothing, that can compensate for a happy, romantic marriage. When your marriage gets stronger, you won't even consider taking a separate vacation because you won't want to be away from him.

Melody, it is hard to break these habits. I think it has to do with the fact that I have had to act independently in the past. I was also a single Mom for many years .It's something that I will have to work on.

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Originally Posted by LongWayFromHome
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
... SNIP.... When your marriage gets stronger, you won't even consider taking a separate vacation because you won't want to be away from him.

Yes, yes, YES! That's where we are...finally. We don't like the idea at all even being apart on a weekend day for a few hours, much less a few days. When recovery finally takes over and the "new" marriage takes its place over the "old" marriage, you are absolutely hooked on being together, just for the sheer enjoyment of each others company.

People in our lives will bring up the occasional spousal absence and say that "it's so nice to have the house to myself for a change." And don't we get "tired of being together." We used to feel that way, too, but we haven't felt that way in the two years we have been in recovery. We never want to go back to what we had before.

That your H is up front and honest with you is great, even though it means it will hamper your ability to do some of the things you enjoy doing. Once you find new things to do together, you will likely not miss the old independent ways of doing things.

LWFH and AM, soooo not there yet. I don't mind when he has to work at night. I like having the house to myself. Another thing with the trip, is that if it was him going away with his parents, I wouldn't mind a bit. Not that I wouldn't miss him but I wouldn't be upset if he went. So, I guess I am not "there" yet. Recovery is still a difficult work in progress.


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Originally Posted by Rocketqueen
Melody, it is hard to break these habits. I think it has to do with the fact that I have had to act independently in the past. I was also a single Mom for many years .It's something that I will have to work on.

Girl, believe me, I feel your pain. I do!! crazy It was the hardest thing for me to do. But the payoff in stopping independent behavior is worth 100x the things you gave up. Now that you know what it means, you will just have to mark any independent behavior off your calendar. Using the POJA will become a habit and you will be surprised at how much tension leaves your marriage because of it.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by Rocketqueen
Originally Posted by LongWayFromHome
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
... SNIP.... When your marriage gets stronger, you won't even consider taking a separate vacation because you won't want to be away from him.

Yes, yes, YES! That's where we are...finally. We don't like the idea at all even being apart on a weekend day for a few hours, much less a few days. When recovery finally takes over and the "new" marriage takes its place over the "old" marriage, you are absolutely hooked on being together, just for the sheer enjoyment of each others company.

People in our lives will bring up the occasional spousal absence and say that "it's so nice to have the house to myself for a change." And don't we get "tired of being together." We used to feel that way, too, but we haven't felt that way in the two years we have been in recovery. We never want to go back to what we had before.

That your H is up front and honest with you is great, even though it means it will hamper your ability to do some of the things you enjoy doing. Once you find new things to do together, you will likely not miss the old independent ways of doing things.

LWFH and AM, soooo not there yet. I don't mind when he has to work at night. I like having the house to myself. Another thing with the trip, is that if it was him going away with his parents, I wouldn't mind a bit. Not that I wouldn't miss him but I wouldn't be upset if he went. So, I guess I am not "there" yet. Recovery is still a difficult work in progress.

RQ, it took us a long long time to get to this point, and there were many times I thought I would never be able to love my H again. I had no feeling of any sort for a while for him; it's as though I didn't care whether he lived or died for a while but just kept plodding on doing the program as best as I could manage.

The pain lessened after the first year. My H slipped a few times on his EPs and that had me preparing for my escape plan each time.

My H became a changed man. He was the IB king for many years and has vastly changed in this area. He was humble and repentant and gentle with me. Humility--meaning he pretty much bared his soul to me a few times instead of trying to act like he didn't care. He showed me that he cared very much even when he knew I didn't and could have used this care against him.

I understand where you are...really. During the first year and a half, the biggest reason I really wanted us not to be separated wasn't because I wanted to be with him; it was more because I was afraid I'd sink into sadness over his A. At least when he was with me, he could comfort me with his care and love. If he wasn't around (at work,) the thoughts would overwhelm me and I would feel that resentment and even some hatred rising up. As long as we were together, those negative feelings could be more or less controlled.

I'm amazed we finally got to this point.


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...the biggest reason I really wanted us not to be separated wasn't because I wanted to be with him; it was more because I was afraid I'd sink into sadness over his A.

Exactly! A great first-person testimonial, LWFH!

The best balm for the wounds of infidelity is the care and affection of the remorseful FWS!

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I totally understand the feeling of disappointment and losing out. It seems preposterous to give up an all-expense paid trip, especially if you are used to independent behavior in your marriage (as i am) probably even more so after the stress you have been through this past year.

However, attaining a romantic and fulfilling marriage is worth all the vacations in the world. I am looking at losing out on my amazing vacation as a stepping stone to the kind of relationship I crave. That hope really quells my resentment.

What I've been doing ( pushing my own agenda) hasn't been working. When I look back at losing out on this trip, I hope to see it as a pivotal turning point in our relationship where we started working together towards mutually satisfying goals.

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Originally Posted by Rocketqueen
For the last year or so, I was planning on going on a trip to Cancun for my 40th birthday. My Mom went and booked the ticket but Kiss does want me to go.


RQ. You have been here long enough to be familiar with POJA and IB.


You say that you have been planning this for a year or longer and it is just coming to a head now after your Mother has pushed the button?


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Originally Posted by Deborah_1
I totally understand the feeling of disappointment and losing out. It seems preposterous to give up an all-expense paid trip, especially if you are used to independent behavior in your marriage (as i am) probably even more so after the stress you have been through this past year.

However, attaining a romantic and fulfilling marriage is worth all the vacations in the world. I am looking at losing out on my amazing vacation as a stepping stone to the kind of relationship I crave. That hope really quells my resentment.

What I've been doing ( pushing my own agenda) hasn't been working. When I look back at losing out on this trip, I hope to see it as a pivotal turning point in our relationship where we started working together towards mutually satisfying goals.

I think part of the problem is that I feel like I am losing out. When I tried to discuss an alternative he continues to bash me over my screw-up (which I have admitted to and apologized for).

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Originally Posted by pokerface
Originally Posted by Rocketqueen
For the last year or so, I was planning on going on a trip to Cancun for my 40th birthday. My Mom went and booked the ticket but Kiss does want me to go.


RQ. You have been here long enough to be familiar with POJA and IB.


You say that you have been planning this for a year or longer and it is just coming to a head now after your Mother has pushed the button?

Pokerface, being as this trip was something that kiss has known about for a long time, I never realized he had an issue about it until it was booked. That was when he said he didn't want me to go. This seems to be a problem of his. Not telling me how he is really feeling. I told him that he needs to be honest with me or how would I know? In fact, I was smacked with the "I have been unhappy for a long time" just before I found out about his affair. He didn't tell me how he felt, so he became emotionally withdrawn from me and emotionally connected to a co-worker. Can we say TRIGGER?! To me, if this is something that he is still doing, then how do I know that there is a problem in our marriage and that another affair won't happen? And even after I have told him that that is a DJ and unfair to me, he still admits in his own postings that he regrets telling me anything.

I understand that I need to stop making decisions on my own. I won't call it IB because if I do anything, it involves me and the kids. I'm rarely ever without them. No free passes for this mommy! LOL

As far as POJA goes:
In marriage, your interests and your spouses interests should be considered simultaneously. One of you should not suffer for the benefit of the other, even willingly, because when either of you suffer, one is gaining at the other's expense. If you both care about each other, you will not let the other suffer so that you can have what you want. When you are willing to let the other sacrifice for you, you are momentarily lapsing into a state of selfishness that must somehow be corrected before damage is done. The Policy of Joint Agreement provides that correction.

Right now I feel like I am suffering for his benefit. So I have tried to move us to Successful Negotiation. But, here I am faced with his anger and disrespect. So, I have let it drop for now since he is unwilling to negotiate an enthusiastic agreement that we will BOTH be happy with. The sooner we can move past this, the better for our marriage.

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When I tried to discuss an alternative he continues to bash me over my screw-up

I'm having a little trouble deciphering your tenses here - "tried" suggests past, while "continues" implies present - but if "bash" is the best you can do to represent his actions (criticize, complain about, emphasize) it's an indicator that you and kiss (I've detected the same from him) are more invested in playing to the audience out here than in properly dealing with each other.

Wouldn't this have been more helpful to report:

When I try to discuss an alternative he refers to my screw-up, and I pull the discussion back to what we can address - future actions - and away from failures in the past.

There was a Family Circus cartoon some years ago, in which Mom broke up a fight, and made the mistake of asking what started it. The next panel had Dad walking in, with balloons from the kids saying "But he did..." , and "Before that, she.....", and from Mom saying, "We're making progress, we're all the way back to last month!"

And I swear, if you're reading this saying, as I know damn well you are, "Why doesn't that idiot NG go yell at kiss, since he started this?", you have made my point!

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NG, thank you for cleaning up my English smile I say "tried" because I tried to discuss this with him yesterday but he criticized and complained (and continues to do so) while I am trying to move us to the next step.

Thank you for making the point on his thread as well, that we need to move on instead of continuing in damaging circles.

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Thank you for making the point on his thread as well

Fairness is my watchword - I strive to be obnoxious to EVERYONE!

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Originally Posted by Rocketqueen
Pokerface, being as this trip was something that kiss has known about for a long time, I never realized he had an issue about it until it was booked. That was when he said he didn't want me to go.

Did you ever ask Kiss how he felt about the trip? Asking him would be the first step in POJA.

Waiting for him to speak up is not POJA. I think you now realize this but I wanted to address your post to me.






Originally Posted by Rocketqueen
This seems to be a problem of his. Not telling me how he is really feeling. I told him that he needs to be honest with me or how would I know? In fact, I was smacked with the "I have been unhappy for a long time" just before I found out about his affair.


Ok. I know that you know that was a bunch of fogbabble that all waywards pull.




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RQ,


Congratulations on your graduation!


What graduation?


Graduation from "Help, my husband is being a turd!" to "Let's help you keep your side of the street clean!"


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Originally Posted by pokerface
Originally Posted by Rocketqueen
This seems to be a problem of his. Not telling me how he is really feeling. I told him that he needs to be honest with me or how would I know? In fact, I was smacked with the "I have been unhappy for a long time" just before I found out about his affair.


Ok. I know that you know that was a bunch of fogbabble that all waywards pull.

I do, but I also believe that this is a lingering problem that HE needs to clean up.


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Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
RQ,


Congratulations on your graduation!


What graduation?


Graduation from "Help, my husband is being a turd!" to "Let's help you keep your side of the street clean!"

Lol, thanks HHH! yes, I have work to do, I just needed it brought to my attention wink


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Originally Posted by Rocketqueen
Originally Posted by pokerface
Originally Posted by Rocketqueen
This seems to be a problem of his. Not telling me how he is really feeling. I told him that he needs to be honest with me or how would I know? In fact, I was smacked with the "I have been unhappy for a long time" just before I found out about his affair.


Ok. I know that you know that was a bunch of fogbabble that all waywards pull.

I do, but I also believe that this is a lingering problem that HE needs to clean up.

I know RQ and my very own WH was also guilty of this. I think it was part manipulation tactic.

My solution? Ask my WH about EVERYTHING including silly and stupid things like "Do you think I should call the window cleaners?" Amazing how his point of view is often completely different from mine. But I never knew until I started asking because he never told me unless I asked.

It took awhile...but he feels safe in telling me things now because we have learned POJA. It played a huge part in turning my marriage around...but I had to be the driving force in the beginning.

Good Luck to you. smile


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Originally Posted by pokerface
Originally Posted by Rocketqueen
Originally Posted by pokerface
Originally Posted by Rocketqueen
This seems to be a problem of his. Not telling me how he is really feeling. I told him that he needs to be honest with me or how would I know? In fact, I was smacked with the "I have been unhappy for a long time" just before I found out about his affair.


Ok. I know that you know that was a bunch of fogbabble that all waywards pull.

I do, but I also believe that this is a lingering problem that HE needs to clean up.

I know RQ and my very own WH was also guilty of this. I think it was part manipulation tactic.

My solution? Ask my WH about EVERYTHING including silly and stupid things like "Do you think I should call the window cleaners?" Amazing how his point of view is often completely different from mine. But I never knew until I started asking because he never told me unless I asked.

It took awhile...but he feels safe in telling me things now because we have learned POJA. It played a huge part in turning my marriage around...but I had to be the driving force in the beginning.

Good Luck to you. smile

Thanks, great advice! I'll start doing that.


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Originally Posted by Rocketqueen
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
RQ,


Congratulations on your graduation!


What graduation?


Graduation from "Help, my husband is being a turd!" to "Let's help you keep your side of the street clean!"

Lol, thanks HHH! yes, I have work to do, I just needed it brought to my attention wink


Do you remember before, how you were worried about punishing KISS for being honest?


Now it's time to think about that.




"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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