Hi-
The reason I asked if you minded if I started a new thread, is the first time I posted here someone started a new thread to me. I logged on and it said "For Clouds" and I just about fell out of my chair. Although no one should know who Clouds is, I still felt "exposed" somehow.<p>Anyway, welcome to MB. I guess you've been hanging out a while so you aren't so very new. I usually post in "In Recovery," mainly because a few months back I found GQII turned me off for a while. Forums change as people come an go.<p>I had a hard time telling my story here. I had this awful feeling that somehow someone I knew would recognize me. I slowly got over that, and if I have been found out, no one has said anything.....<p>I understand your need for validation. I felt/feel the same way. Not validation for what I did, but validation of how I'm feeling, what I'm going through. <p> I first posted January 2001. I found MB in October 2001. I found it very hard to tell my story. You don&#8217;t have to of course, but it helps others to be able to talk to you. Here&#8217;s my story in my words at the time, if you are interested:<p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=007398<p>You said: <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>already know that i'm a lying, cheating, selfish whatever else you bs want to call me..<hr></blockquote><p>Let me respond to that. I have found the most IMPORTANT concept for my recovery is the distinction between who the person is and what they have done. No doubt, you lied, cheated and acted selfishly. That does not make you forever a liar, cheater, etc. These are mistakes. You are human. You did something awful, for whatever reasons or lack of reasons. To recover, you have to realize that that is NOT the person you are or want to be. You are better than that, or you can be anyway. You can&#8217;t let this one thing define your whole life. <p>Tell me your story if you can. Who was OM? How did it start? How long did it last? How long has there been no contact? How do you feel, besides remorseful, guilty, shocked? <p>It took me a long time to get through withdrawal. My EA lasted 1.5 years. I missed OM terribly for a while, and it slowly got better. If you still think about OM don&#8217;t beat yourself up. That is normal. But when you do, try to re-focus, think about your H, something positive you can do for him your son or yourself. <p>I found that the process of withdrawal was a lot like grief. It takes time. Even if the relationship was wrong, wasn&#8217;t &#8220;real&#8221; your feelings were real. And the grief/loss many WS feel for the OP is hard. You may feel these feelings are wrong, but if you found someone you cared for enough to get involved with, most of us can&#8217;t walk away and feel nothing. That would be absurd to expect. So it does take time to heal. That&#8217;s normal. So be patient.<p>How is your H doing? What have you been reading? Are you in counseling? Who knows about this that you can talk to?

clouds...<p>thank you...<p>i don't think i'll find time to reply this evening at home... look for me in the morning...

clouds...<p>i've thought about this a lot... it's hard to write... i'm not sure how many details to give... i can tell you what i was thinking and what i was feeling and why i did what i did (at that time)... it all seems so hollow to me now...i keep thinking that if it all seems like a bunch of excuses to me what must it seem like to the rest of the world...<p>anyway, here's something...<p>i met my husband 11 years ago... i married him because i thought i could have a future with him... i was not "in love" but i did like and love him... my husband came to the u.s. 18 years ago...<p>a "do not cross" emotional barricade was set up soon after we were married... he often equated my telling him how i felt about things to "emotional blackmail"... (i think my husband missed his calling... he should have been a lawyer... i often feel like i'm on the witness stand...)<p>i assumed that as we got to know each other things would get better but they didn't... i began to think that it was true when he said "where i come from men don't do this thing"... fortunately i made a trip home and met his family at the end of our second year of marriage... his family was totally different... they were (both men and women) emotionally available... i got to know and fall in love with them...<p>over the years my husband has continued not to meet my emotional needs... i think i did what came natural which was talk to my friends a lot... my husband sees it as me putting our business on the street, but i need an outlet... (at this point in time i'm beginning to think that i'm having eas with all of my sister friends...)<p>the wheels came off for me when we lost our second child 21 weeks into the pregnancy... she would have been 3 years old this past december... my husband and i have yet to have a really talk about her... she doesn't exist for him... she did for me... it was a hard pregnancy... threw up everything i ate the entire time... lost 20 pounds in the 21 weeks... hard choices needed to be made... details (secrets) that are to date only between me and my husband... have not even shared them with my sister friends... really need to discuss this with husband still!!! no hope...<p>since then i've been vulnerable... i've tried to tell my husband what i need... i've tried to get his attention... i've even tried suicide... as you can see, i'm still here... my friends intervened...<p>in april 2001 i made a trip home for my mil's 75th birthday... while there i met the om... he is 15 years my junior... i spent time with him off and on while i was there... i thought that we were just being friends, he was assisting his elder in her travels... the day that i left he "touched me" and gave me a kiss... something passed between us... i spent the flight home (19 hours)trying to figure out what has happened...<p>the om and i began mailing each other... sometimes i wish i still had those mails... the ea grew... we broke off communication for a while and i thought that things were back to where they should be... thought i was over him...<p>in the meantime i continued trying to get my husband to understand what i needed... since i had never been home for the holidays i decided to go this year... coincidentally the om started to mail me soon after i purchased my ticket... knowing what i knew i renewed efforts to get my husband's attention...<p>two weeks before i traveled my husband and i were in the kitchen... i was making our son's lunch for school... here's how it went:<p>me: "baby you wife needs some tlc"...
husband: "what's tlc"...
me (irritated but anyway): "tlc means tender loving care"...
husband: "what does that mean?"...
me: "you've been married to me for nine plus years and you don't know what tender loving care means?"<p>maybe i failed... maybe i should have went on and explained to him exactly what i need for him to do... it's true you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink... i feel like (i think my friend will back me up on this one) i've constantly tried leading my husband to the pool of emotional needs but he refuses to drink... i've also felt that i'm not going to give my husband credit for doing the things that i need if i have to nag/badger him to do them... do you understand what i'm trying to say here?...<p>any, i wanted to tell my husband that i was in trouble because i knew that i was vulnerable... i started to many times in the two weeks before i left... i just was never able to muster up enough courage to tell him that if he did not give me the tlc that i need i was going to get it from someone else...<p>what does it mean when you see yourself making the biggest mistake in your life and you do nothing to stop yourself?...<p>anyway, i was home for a month... i managed to stay out of trouble until the last night i was there... i wish i could say i didn't know what happened... there was something about knowing that this was my last opportunity to have my needs met... i gave in and we got physical... inside i was screaming before it was over... another long flight home... much soul searching...<p>my husband say's he knew something was up from the moment he saw me... i made him ask me what was going on by getting up in the early morning (2-3am) and making phone calls to the om... i don't think that my husband was as upset about the emotional attachment (except for the fact that his business is in the streets) as he was about the one physical encounter... personally i think the emotional attachment is much more serious than the other... my husband has forgive me... his only request being that i have no contact with the om ever again...<p>(i marvel at home many of the mb principal we put in place without knowing it... as i said my husband wanted no contact... early on i gave him the user id's and password for all of my mail accounts... he has free access to my cell phone also...)<p>i failed at no contact for the first month... my husband found out, didn't understand and i had a lot of trouble trying to explain my behavior once again... by the time i was introduced to this board i had already gone through withdrawal (although i still have the urge to contact the om, especially when my husband and i are not communicating)...<p>there has been no contact between me and the om since the end of february... when the urge hits me i sit down at the computer and write him e-mails that i don't send... i find that once i put it in the computer i feel better... i have been know to dial his number also... i always hang up before he answers...<p>my husband is still looking at all of my words and actions with contempt... he says he wants me to tell him before i do it the next time... i don't want there to be a next time... my biggest worry is that somehow when i'm not paying the proper amount of attention i will mistakenly fall into another ea... he's not willing to do anything to address the issue... he does not believe in counseling...<p>i'm luck that i was introduced to this board... i've read a lot and learned a lot here... i'm impressed with the amount of work that bs are doing to try and salvage their marriages... i gave my husband the link to this forum but he thinks it's silly and seem resentful that i'm spending time here... i need it, so i'm here to stay...<p>so, that's my story... what do you think?...<p>[ May 10, 2002: Message edited by: oaktown ]</p>

oaktown-
I guess I am very familiar with a lot of your story. I went through a lot of similar things myself. I think that your difficulties with your communications with your H are really serious. I have struggled with a H who I characterize is having a lack of emotions, but your story makes me think your situation is even more extreme. <p>It sounds like you've been through an awful lot without much suppport from your H. I tend to lean on my sister for emotional support. It helps to have someone to talk to.<p>I am so sorry about the loss of your daughter. My best friend lost a son at 40 weeks (full term). They were allowed to grieve together, I helped them put together a memorial service and we invited all of our friends. At first some people thought it was wierd to do this for an still born child, however, I think it greatly helped them. I am sorry for your loss and that you were not able to grieve with your H. <p>I know that there are no "excuses" for having an affair. But your needs for attention and affection from your spouse are very real. My H read some books after d-day. One of the biggest breakthroughs for both of us was coming to grips with the concept of emotional needs. Neither one of us acknowleged my needs for conversation, attention and affection as being real needs, and certainly not as important as his need for sex, admiration and domestic support. What I saw as my duties and he saw as reasonable needs of a married man, we both agreed upon. What I tried to deny was that my needs were equal and real. When they were met by someone else, I didn't really understand what happened. <p>I guess I feel like you really need to find a way to communicate to your H that these needs are real and as real as his needs (which are what?). I am not the best person to comment on how you might get a reluctant spouse to understand these things. Perhaps someone else will have good ideas for you.<p>You've done a good job in stopping contact. I know how hard that can be. Stay strong. I think writing things out is good. I also go back and look at what I wrote and try to send some to my H. I don't know if this would work for you. <p>I'll get back to you again later, have to work now.

clouds...<p>it's funny, i have wished many a day that they had given me whatever remains there were so that i could have buried them...<p>oaktown...

I wish for your sake, they had, too. I don't know much about this stuff, except what I experienced with my friends. Since their baby was full term, the hospital staff seemed to be prepared for this type of tragedy. They really knew what to do, and how to help.<p>It seems like you never got the closure that you needed. Have you had any counseling?

Hi Oaktown, and welcome.
I'm one of Cloud's buddies from the Recovery Board. She asked me to pop over probably for help with the issue of the loss of your baby. I am so sorry. It's very different when you lose a child no matter what the age. When we lose parents or any adult that was close to us, we lose part of our past.<p>When we lose a child, no matter the age or gestation, we lose part of our future..part of our dream. That's something you don't get over, but you get through. Bringing closure is helpful..it gives you permission to go on....sometimes just some flowers thrown on the lake...sometimes just a note that you bury, will be enough to help you take that deep breath you need to go on. You never forget. You're not supposed to. There is not a timeline to be "over it". It's OK.<p>You seem able to express yourself..I feel for your H (who incidentially is not that different from many men) who hold emotion inside until they smother rather than exhibit "unmanly" behavior. That is why so many do not "believe" in counselling. Expressing feelings is not the manly thing to do..they learn it early..."don't cry, just pick up the ball and keep running."<p>On a different subject, I look back at your kitchen arguement..<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> me: "baby you wife needs some tlc"...
husband: "what's tlc"...
me (irritated but anyway): "tlc means tender loving care"...
husband: "what does that mean?"...
me: "you've been married to me for nine plus years and you don't know what tender loving care means?"
<hr></blockquote><p>I'm just picking up on a communication thing that many women do. I was the Queen of this. Almost destroyed my relationship. I expected him to read my mind and when he couldn't, I ran even further away. Smart move!<p>You had an excellent opportunity to tell him exactly what you needed (and to find out what his needs were) and got pissed off that he couldn't read your mind. <p>But what would have happened if you had turned around and said "To me, TLC means some extra affection and attention, a spontaneous hug...what does it mean to you?" And of course, he probably would have answered "Uggh, I don't know" to which you'd reply (hopefully by going over, hugging him and kissing his neck) well, think about it..I like to give as good as I get."<p>...or something along those lines.<p>Yeah, I got the "if you have to tell me what to do, does it really mean anything" speech (emotional blackmail?) not only from him, but from that little voice inside me...but guess what? I did it anyway. Usually with a smile, a little flirting, and he started coming around. <p>There is a big difference in saying "you need to give me this" while holding a 2X4, and saying "this is what I want" while smiling.<p>Think about it!
Hugs,
T

clouds...<p>today is one of those days... the husband got up on the wrong side of the bed... he's been using ever, never and always a lot... what i could really use is a hug... there's also this underlying desire to email the om... it's usually bad when things are tense...<p>i've mostly been reading threads like contrite's still having guilty feeling over 2 years later... this is one of the main things that i'm worried about... i don't want to feel like this is a permanent condition... i can be pretty hard on myself...<p>when i first came to this board i used to think that it would be nice if my husband thought enough of me and our marriage to plan a us... (i'm the one who needs a good plan a... i need to do my homework...) i moved to wishing that i could get him to read some of the material and take some of the questionnaires... at this point in time i would be happy if he would just let me visit this site without it somehow being a threat...<p>my husband says that i like to paint him as the villain... i hope i have not done so... he is who he is... i'm no longer looking for him to change... i get in trouble when i try to figure out how i'm going to live the rest of my life without having my emotional needs met... how am i going to keep away from falling into emotional affairs for the rest of my life?...<p>thanks for listening...<p>oaktown...<p>ps... twyla... i'm coming...<p>[ May 11, 2002: Message edited by: oaktown ]</p>

Oaktown,
I'll be around all weekend catching up on all my coorespondence and work, so take your time.<p>I read that thread too about feeling guilty 2 years after...I'll be honest, there is a teensy part of me that wishes my partner feels a little guilty for a long time too. But, then I'd have to start feeling pretty bad about my mistakes too, and believe me..I don't want to go there!<p>What to do about a spouse that won't participate..well, there is nothing you can do to change him...that's for sure. But you can change your reactions to him. He thinks you paint him the villian? Hmmmmm..where did he get that from? Either it's a fear of his, or it's a gut reaction he has from past experience. That would be something for you to think about. How have you reacted to him in the past...a look, a gesture, a few chosen words..."you don't know what TLC means?" See where I'm going with this?<p>The first time I read the Love Buster's book, I was full of righteous anger and pride. I could point out all of HIS LB's down to dates, times, places. The second time I read it, I did so as if I was he. I mercilessly pointed out MY LB's. I'm ashamed to say, the list was much longer. So this was where I started..I purposely changed myself, my attitudes, my judgements. After a while, those "never, always, ever" statements became fewer..and frankly he was baffled. <p>What you don't know is that I made these changes while he was still involved and in love with the OW. And she was meeting his needs very well, so well, he wasn't very sure he wanted to come back. But, as he said, there was an "acceptance" of him that I hadn't had before.<p>And also, I was able to circumvent some bad moments rather creatively. I remember once, in the middle of his withdrawal, bad mood and general arguing, simply stopping and saying.."OK, well this won't solve a thing..so let's just have sex for awhile." Took him by complete suprise, but he agreed. Later, when he realised I would still want him, still treat him well, bad mood, thorns and all, he calmed down appreciatively.<p>Hon, it's been a year since we've been back together. He won't go to a counselor because "we're both smarter than they are". He won't read a book, although about 6 months into recovery I was able to sneak in a questionnaire or two.<p>However, I told him early on about the MB site, books and that that was how I had chosen to live MY life..without LB's, meeting his needs, open and unflagging honesty..not only about my relationship with him, but with myself. I explained that we could have a great relationship whenever he chose to join the party. I wish I could tell you that he jumped right on board and the relationship has been heaven ever since..it hasn't. But it's been better than anything we've ever had. Yup we still fight..we just fight fair. We communicate much better..are we "there" yet? Don't have a definition about what "there" is, but I think we're both committed to the long haul.<p>Oak, you say you loved him, but weren't in love...define that for me please..and think about this..do you think he's sensed that?
T

oaktown-
This balance of wanting more from your marriage, wanting to recover from the affair, and wanting to be able to live with the guilt is hard. <p>I didn't do much counseling either. My H also comes from the school of "we're smarter than those people," we can solve our own problems, etc. But he was willing to red some books adn listen to ideas. <p>What I have learned from people like Twyla, JL, and others is that I have to work at this relationship, and a lot of what I had to do was change my perception of my H. We have made things better. <p>I will be away a couple of days, so I'll check in in you later.<p>Thanks for dropping in Twyla, I hope all is well with you.

twyla...<p>thanks for your time and thoughts...<p>i met my husband through an ad in the personals... it said, "average, ordinary, non perfect, woman, 32 seeks life partner, interested?"... (i'm glad i had that part about non perfect in there...) by the time i got around to advertising (after i turned 30) i had given up on the notion of "in love" and marriage...<p>i'm happy that "in love" was not part of the foundation of our marriage... if it was i think the marriage would be over... i believe that this is true for both me and my husband... the main reason i got married is because i thought that i could have a future with my husband... i knew that it would not always be easy (two cultures in one household) but from what i knew of him we had the same destination in mind... he was not "in love" with me either... he asked me to marry him on the first day that i met him... as he put it, "i've sampled your mind and have decided that you are the person that i'm going to marry"...<p>so i don't think that "in love" is an issue for us... from where i sit our issue is that my husband does not believe that he can meet my emotional needs... he says that he's not willing to try and that he knew a while ago that i was searching to have my needs met... he decided that it was ok... he would just prefer that i act as an adult and tell him when i'm going to "step out"...<p>in my husband's culture i've achieved the status of "our wife"... this means that the family has accepted me... it also means that even if we were to divorce and he remarry the family will not recognize the new wife... therefore, my husband would rather stay married... now as much as i appreciate being "our wife" i know that i will never be happy if i am not "my husband's wife" (i hope you understand what i mean)... the thing that i can't get my husband to understand is that he is capable of meeting my needs... he just needs to want to do it... i don't want to lead a double life (based on the things i've done he has trouble believing this)... if i find the right someone else to meet my emotional needs and everything else there won't be any need for me to continue with him...<p>so, since i still believe that the reasons that i married my husband are valid, i need to come up with a plan that takes care of the following:<p>- i need to stop feeling like a marriage is a 50/50 event...
- i need to find peace when it comes to the loss of our second child...
- i need to keep myself from seeking the fulfillment of my emotional needs elsewhere... i'm counting on this forum to help me here... something tells me that when i post a thread that say's i've fallen overboard many life preservers will be thrown by the forumites here...
- i need to take a harder look at the things that i complain about... i've noticed that the things that i complain about the most in others are the things that bother me the most in me...
- i need to treat my husband the way i want to be treated... this one sounds simple but i know that it's not going to be...
- i need to take a hard look at the things that i say i don't want... these are usually the things that i want the most but am afraid somehow i can't have...<p>i've got my work cut out for me...<p>oaktown...

Oaktown,<p>I think you are starting to get the hang of it. First, you are making an erroneous assumption if your H won't meet your needs. My bet is that he doesn't have a clue what they truely are or how to meet them. Twayla's post is dead on in this regard. You show him how needs should be met. <p>I have met few human's in my life that didn't enjoy making another human happy, especially if it didn't cost them anything. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Your H would much rather have you happy, than not. Meeting needs is NOT hard work. It simply is a question of awareness and some focus.<p>The problem your H is very likely having is caused by what you addressed in your last post. You say you don't want the very things you do want. AS a guy I can tell you that drives me crazy and it probably does him. He is not a mind reader and has no interest in becoming one.<p>My recommendation is for you to sit down and write down the things you want, what you feel your needs are, how you would like your H to meet them. Let them sit for a day or two, and then go read the list and see if they are true. <p>Then start being honest with your H. If you want a hug, walk up to him and say "come here big boy and give me a hug." As Twayla stated, if you do this with a smile on your face, he will do just as you ask. He will hug you. My bet is he will enjoy hugging you, and kissing you if you really KISS him. Gradually, you will see that he will become more comfortable doing this with you, and gradually he will start to do this things on his own.<p>While it is true that most people around the world want to be in love, how it is shown, how it is accepted, and how it is given is very different between the sexes and between different countries. You need to train him to do what he is willing to do but doesn't know how. It isn't fake, it is simply learning.<p>If he were a mean guy, or really spiteful to you that would be one thing, but he isn't and I would bet he would much rather have you happy. Oaktown, it may not be hugs, it may be talking , it may be anything. He will need to know from you how to do it. The best way to get him to do this is to meet his needs as well.<p>This is a very nonlinear process and action often leads to reactions and then new actions. That is how this stuff grows. So, if you want this marriage, quit assuming he knows how to show what is in his heart and show him how you recognize what is in his heart.<p>Does that make sense?<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Pretty interesting list<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>- i need to stop feeling like a marriage is a 50/50 event...
- i need to find peace when it comes to the loss of our second child...
- i need to keep myself from seeking the fulfillment of my emotional needs elsewhere... i'm counting on this forum to help me here... something tells me that when i post a thread that say's i've fallen overboard many life preservers will be thrown by the forumites here...
- i need to take a harder look at the things that i complain about... i've noticed that the things that i complain about the most in others are the things that bother me the most in me...
- i need to treat my husband the way i want to be treated... this one sounds simple but i know that it's not going to be...
- i need to take a hard look at the things that i say i don't want... these are usually the things that i want the most but am afraid somehow i can't have...<hr></blockquote><p>Well, let me play the devil's advocate on this one.
-you sort of went into this marriage as if it was a 50/50 proposition..sort of a business deal on both sides. Which is ok if that's the way you both want it to remain...but it sounds as if you're looking for more. Again, that's OK, but you have to be honest with yourself and H..if he does not want a marriage with love and meeting needs...then neither of you will be happy. Let me ask you this..were you looking for love and settling for safety thinking maybe love would magically grow? I did this in my first marriage..doesn't happen..you got to work for it..it is a gift. It can happen here too..but you've both got a lot of experience building walls between you..it's going to take some work to get them torn down.<p>-We covered some things about the loss of the child earlier, but, counselling may be a welcome help here.<p>-your emotional needs are not going to go away..you will eventually become depressed and again probably seek out someway to get them fulfilled..only this time, your H has more or less told you it's ok if you're discreet. Some couples do this..so think long and hard..I'm not advocating it at all..it would be like living 2 half lives..I doubt either would remain satisfactory for long.<p>- Yeah, I realized that about myself too..that's when I started applying the Love Busters attitudes at work and with my friends and family. For me, sarcasm, irritations, quick judgements..often disrespectful were all secondary to some pretty deep dissatisfaction with my relationship..do you see a parallel?<p>-Treating your H the way HE wants to be..but right now it sounds as if he's pretty withdrawn..and no matter what he says about love and "in love", he is human. He has to feel some hurt about the A..he'll be tough to break through. Meet which ever needs he'll allow for the time being, and don't expect too much in return.<p>-saying what you want and how you want it and, oh, by the way, when you want it is really tough. As a former major conflict avoider I know. Do you think you don't deserve to have what you want? Do you think you'll be refused? I wonder about that when I read your want ad.."average, ordinary, non-perfect"...so far from reading your thread, I've not seen a very average, or ordinary woman.."very bright, loving,articulate female who can love and wants love in return" sounds a little more like the Oak I'm cooresponding with. Who ever told you that you were ordinary and didn't deserve more...and why did you believe them?<p>Don't you hate it when I play devil's advocate??
T<p>[ May 14, 2002: Message edited by: Twyla ]</p>

Hi oaktown-
I read your lists of things you need to do. It's quite a list, and not that different from my own.<p>I have the hardest time knowing what I need and then expressing it to my H. Most of the time my unmet needs are just this dull aching feeling in my chest, that I can't put a name to. Then, something happens or someone says something and I cry, and I figure out what it was (maybe) that was bugging me. Pretty effective way of communication, eh? <p>One thought that you expressed in one of your posts is the idea that having to tell/show/teach your H about how to meet your needs defeats the purpose, or seriously takes away from, the act. You ask him, he does it, it seems contrived, fake, ingenuine. <p>Well, that's what I thought, too. But I decided that if my H had a physical handicap, and I had to help him learn to deal with it, I would. Well, it turns out what he needs help with is emotional stuff. So I am, hit and miss, trying to find things he IS good at and telling him. And, reminding him, as needed about how much I appreciate it.<p>Small example. I love it when he leaves me notes. So I said to him, when you leave on your trips, could you please leave me a note. I really like that. So now he does. Every week. He may find it forced, I don't know. But the pleasure I get from being able to get up knowing that he left me a note (rather than thinking, crap, he's gone again), way, way, outweighs the fact that I had to ask for it. And now it is something we do. I don't think about the fact anymore that I had to ask for it. As JL says, even when they have a good heart, our spouses are not necessarily naturally good at giving us what we want, they aren't mind-readers. We aren't even giving them a chance if we don't ask.<p>I also had a nasty habit of "testing" him. I would say something or do something and wait to see if he came up with the "right" response. Usually he "failed." This proved to me I was right that he didn't get it. So, maybe I was right, what good does that do? Would I do this to my child? no. My best friend? no. I've tried to stop doing it.

just learning...<p>first, here's the emotional reaction... i feel like i've been trying to teach my husband how to meet my needs from day one... the funny thing about it is i see him do the things that i want for other women!!! he'll sit on the phone late in the night patiently listening as his women friends talk to him about issues in their lives... i've always looked on these as emotional affairs... why don't i and our marriage deserve the same dedication?... why is it that someone has to die, or suicide attempted or an affair occur before the lets me know how he feels about me?...<p>now that i've gotten that out of my system, on to the intellectual... can you answer a question from the male perspecitve?... i've asked my husband why he sits and listens to other women and their tales of woo... he says that it's because they don't mean anything to him... he's not involved with them... (he may think there's no involvement but i know there is on the women's part)... ok, let's buy the lack of involvement... tell me, if he can give that much to women who don't mean anything to him why can't he give the same to me?... how do i get him to understand that what he's freely giving to others is what i need?...<p>my husband tells me that he wants me to be happy... you make sense... you're telling me that i need to show him how to love me... you're telling me that once he does i should accept it without judgement... you're telling me to act as though i beleive...<p>i'm trying...<p>oaktown...<p>[ May 14, 2002: Message edited by: oaktown ]</p>

Oaktown,<p>You have just asked the BIG QUESTION. I'll do my best to answer it.<p>You asked: <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>now that i've gotten that out of my system, on to the intellectual... can you answer a question from the male perspecitve?... i've asked my husband why he sits and listens to other women and their tales of woo... he says that it's because they don't mean anything to him... he's not involved with them... (he may think there's no involvement but i know there is on the women's part)... ok, let's buy the lack of involvement... tell me, if he can give that much to women who don't mean anything to him why can't he give the same to me?... how do i get him to understand that what he's freely giving to others is what i need?... <hr></blockquote><p>OK, I'll ask and answer a similar question of myself. Why is it easier for me to post here, talk to men and women I don't know about the most intimate parts of their lives and YET I have a hard time talking with my W about the same things?<p>Why is that? I am not married to you. You will accept or reject my comments and neither of us is harmed. But, my W may be hurt by my comments and I mean no harm. My W may interpret such comments as me trying to run her life, or not liking her, or not approving of her and I cannot take that chance. Further, if she really fights me on some idea, then I will feel that she really doesn't want to hear from me about these things or that she doesn't love me. But most of all when she is hurt, I am hurt. I find myself wanting to come to her defense on things when she can handle it herself.<p>I think it is the same reason that physicians don't often operate on their own families. It is hard to stand back and function when there are such deep emotional ties.<p>Oaktown, emotions and feelings are involved when a spouse gives another spouse advice. That is why it is soooo hard. One of the comments that often is made here, is that "having an affair was an awful thing to do, but our marriage is much better because of it". Why do people say that? Because they are forced to open up and admit some of the deepest thoughts they have and that leads to the realization that they can communicate and that their spouse is strong enough to handle some misunderstandings.<p>Oaktown, show your H this thread and this particular post. You see what he said sounds very much like the truth to me. He cannot or has not done these things for you because he loves you and fears hurting you and being hurt by you.<p>It is the FEAR Oaktown, pure and simple it is the FEAR that we may hurt our spouse that prevents us from being as close as we could be.<p>I could ask you why you had your affair when your H was their to talk to and be with. I think the answer is you FEARED being as close to him as you needed to be. You FEARED telling him somethings that would hurt him.<p>Your H sounds like a man that is fairly reasonable. He gave you the answer I would have given you (must be a good guy right? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ). Talk with him about this. But what he and you both need to know is that you CAN talk to each other and give each other advice on your feelings. You CAN do this WITHOUT FEAR that you will take it personally and be hurt.<p>The trick is to know and reinforce that you both want the best for the other. <p>Sounds easy doesn't it? It isn't easy in my house, but we have never had an event that precipatated these deep talks. In some strange ways I sort of wished we did. My bet is your H is afraid of you Oaktown. Afraid of what you can do to him emotionally.<p>I know there isn't a person on the planet that could really hurt me like my W can and could. In fact many things such as death would bother me less.<p>I am being as candid as I can be with you. <p>Oh! one other thing your H gets from helping these women: strokes! They thank him, they tell him he is a good guy for listening to them, they tell him he is smart or his ideas are worth listening to. In short he gets positive feedback.<p>My suspicion is that if you two have deep talks you may not give him that feedback (you're hurt by something he says, you are tired after such a discussion, you need to think about things, and after all he is your H he's supposed to help your right?).<p>Some things to think about. Hope this helps.<p>God Bless,<p>JL<p>PS: One last thing Oaktown. They ask for his advice specifically. He doesn't call them up and play twenty questions. They ASK him specifically what they want to know just as you did with me here. People like to help other people Oaktown all that has to happen is someone ask them. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ May 14, 2002: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</p>

Oaktown-
JL has a point here. (not that he usually doesn't [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>I still have trouble opening up to my H and asking for what I want. And after pondering this for a year or more, I have realized JL is right, I am afraid. <p>If I tried to talk to him in the past, he was full of so many dismissive, impatient disrespectful judgements that I gave up. I assumed I was uninteresting to him, unimportant, and he lacked the ability to be compassionate. Large walls were erected. Things are better now. He would be much more atuned to my feelings, when I let him know how important or sensitive something is for me. Walls reduced.<p>I still protect the vulnerable part of myself from him, though. I can read JL's post, and my thought was, Oaktown will not print it and give it to her H. I wouldn't.<p>Why would I not? What if he wouldn't read it? What if he wouldn't take it seriously? <p>I am afraid. Just like JL said.

twyla: you do the devil well... why do i have so much work today?... i'll get back to you as soon as i can...<p>clouds: i'm coming...<p>just learning: thanks for the answers... the concept that my husband is afraid of me has never crossed my mind... you've given me something to chew on... i'll get back to you also...<p>you all are pushing me here... i love it!!!<p>oaktown...

Nudge nudge here, nudge nudge there...yeah, this place is great for making you open your eyes in ways you never thought possible.<p>JL, as always..you da man...and yet I am afflicted with the same fear as Clouds.. I would love to have him read it, but am too afraid of being ignored, not heard...so sad really.<p>Yet I often conquer the fear with the "what's the worst that could happen" view...and sometimes I get lucky..and sometimes I don't.<p>Oak..what would be the worst that could happen?
T<p>PS clouds..lost your email addy...send it along when you get the time, OK?
T

so... my husband asked me what i had been writing on this board... so, i let him read this thread... afterwards i asked him what he thought...<p>here goes...<p>he says that i didn't state all the things that i've done that are wrong...<p>he says that we've talked about the lost baby... maybe it's not in the way that you need but we've talked about it and in this thing i say we never have...<p>he says that the last time i made contact with the om is the first week of march and not the last week of february as i stated...<p>he says that i did not give you forumites all of the detail...<p>he says that once again i've painted him as the villain...<p>he says that once again i've put his business out in the streets...<p>he says that i've not recognized or written here about the efforts that he's made to meet my needs...<p>he says that he can come to this forum and defend himself...<p>he says that i'm deluding myself...<p>so... i'm numb... i'll be back...<p>oaktown...