oaktown-
You were really brave to share the thread with your H.<p>Although, I am dismayed at what he said, I'm not surprised.<p>He feels attacked. He's defending himself. I think he SHOULD come to the forum and defend himself if he wants.<p>He missed (mostly) a major point in all of what was said. You want him to listen to you and to understand how you feel. You are crying out for him to help you, listen and be your supporter. His response was defensive, and may not have helped, but he may need time to process this, too.<p>He heard some of it though. He heard that you haven't dealt with the baby in the way you need. <p>I can understand you feel numb. But come back. Others will have more to say. You opened a door here. Don't give up.

Oaktown,<p>Tell your H in my mind he doesn't need to defend himself. From what you have said I tend to agree with his point of view. HOWEVER, what we are dealing with is you healing yourself, not him.<p>The only real issue is can YOU recover from what you have done. I think from his responses he listens to you more than you think, he is affected by what you do and have done more than you think, and finally he is open to talking with you.<p>BUT, he is in a defensive mode, and that means that every word will be examined for factual truth and some of the nuances of what you say will be lost. You need to work on getting him to lower his defenses.<p>What both of you need to realize that this isn't a battle BETWEEN you two but a battle by you two against losing your marriage. THe problem is that since another man has been allowed to enter the picture, he feels you are comparing him to this OM. I doubt that you would find that a comfortable situation either.<p>So talk some more with him, open up to him. He sounds very hurt by all of this, and very defensive. I will repeat my comments from before. Why is he defensive, he is afraid, he fears being hurt, looking like a fool, being taken. All are legit. You need to address these things and put him at ease.<p>He knows you feel he is replacable, and I suspect although you haven't said it, he wants to show you he has some value to someone. So Oaktown, look at all of this, and see what you can do to calm this situation down. Part of it is by opening up to him.<p>He doesn't realize that the details are not as important as the thoughts yet. But, part of that is simply defense.<p>Hang in there.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

JL's right, and I can understand your H's reaction also..what he doesn't realize is that this board is full of villians..BS and WS alike.<p>We ALL HAD A PART IN THE BREAKDOWN OF OUR RELATIONSHIPS!!!<p>When I first came on this board I was filled with righteous indignation..I had been betrayed..these were HIS problems...my posts used to had a lot of "but he" sentences in them.<p>Then I got it. I had to be held responsible for my part in the slow disintegration of my relationship. Just because I hadn't given into temptation did not put me on a golden pedestal.<p>The second most important thing I learned is that your feelings can't be wrong. His feelings can't be wrong. Feelings are just that. Yours and yours alone. It's the expression of those feelings to each other, the acceptance of those feelings as special and thoughtful and honest coming from your partner that will save the relationship.<p>And that's a heck of a lot harder than it sounds. Your partner says I feel hurt that you did this, you can't reply.."but I did it because you..." You have to sit there and think "he is revealing something close to his heart. This is how it made him feel no matter what I intended. This is valid"<p>Once again I will grow out my horns and play devils advocate.<p>here goes...<p>he says that i didn't state all the things that i've done that are wrong...<p>No you probably haven't, but I'll bet he could list them perfectly. But you guys have to get past that point to the more important part. How did you feel when you did those things? How did he feel? You have to communicate THAT to each other. What would have made you feel better? <p>he says that we've talked about the lost baby... maybe it's not in the way that you need but we've talked about it and in this thing i say we never have...
Which makes me wonder if now would be a good time for you to tell him exactly how much never reaching closure has affected you. Maybe it's also affected him? And asking him what he thinks about..is the baby a memory that crosses his mind..his lost dream. This sounds like a huge communication issue. Men do have the ability to compartmentalise, put things out of their minds so they can keep going..it is their nature. But it doesn't mean they don't bleed inside like women. <p>he says that the last time i made contact with the om is the first week of march and not the last week of february as i stated...OK, don't know if it's true or not..if you truely didn't, ask him why he believes that? Maybe there actually has been a misunderstanding. If you did, then tell him the truth. If he's been sitting there all this time believing you lied about this, I'm sure he's really pissed. I would be..Heck I was..My SO lied about contact for the better part of 3 months..hurt worse than the A.<p>he says that i did not give you forumites all of the detail... of course not..we all have to sleep...but you gave us the details of what YOU felt were the major issues. He can do the same. He can look at what you've written and realize that these things are your major issues. Now, how about his? Ask him.."if you were posting what would be YOUR major issues." Then you know what...you'd both be able to know where the other's mind is..and could actually start to solve some of this.<p>he says that once again i've painted him as the villain... That is his feeling..listen to that. How long has he felt like you considered him the "bad guy" and for what reasons? Because you didn't understand him? because you didn't give him full access to your thoughts and feelings? Because you assumed that he didn't care and that hurt you so you lashed back? Think about this carefully, Oak. People unwittingly project attitudes on other people...if he feels like he's always painted the villian..than he has a reason.<p>he says that once again i've put his business out in the streets... Nah, we're anonymous here..don't even know what country you're in..and better here than with the neighbors and co workers. The reason this place works so well is that all the superfulous stuff like culture, race, religion and sexual orientation is moot..we all get to be deliciously human.<p>he says that i've not recognized or written here about the efforts that he's made to meet my needs... And that is a biggie. This is the give and take so important..recognising that someone has done something nice for you. This is the whole reason the Harleys recommend doing the emotional needs survey...so you KNOW without a doubt exactly what your partner NEEDS and can provide it. My partner could mow the grass everyday and that would be nice, but guess what..It ain't even in my top ten. However, if he made the effort to actually be home in time to eat dinner with the family twice a week I would become his sexual goddess. Having a nice yard is HIS need, not mine. He gets hurt if I don't turn cartwheels when it's done..thinks I don't recognize him fulfilling a need...but it's HIS need..not mine....see what I mean?<p>he says that he can come to this forum and defend himself... Well of course he can..but there's nothing to defend. We all realize we're only getting your side of the story..have him read the responses...think just about everyone here is nudging YOU to make some changes. And if he were to post, we do just the same for him. This isn't a competition or an organized bashing..it's simply helping folks figure out life and love.<p>he says that i'm deluding myself... I really would like to know what's behind that statement, wouldn't you? I would really love to know his feelings. Is it... my wife is deluding herself because it sounds like she wants a fairy tale marriage and I don't think I'm capable of fulfilling her dreams? Is it...I've been this way for so long I don't think I can change? Is it...I'm still so hurt by the betrayal I have no idea how I can ever get over this and even be civil? I personally think my SO was deluding himself thinking we could ever even attempt to make this work after an infidelity..but he wasn't. There are days that I, as the BS, think I'm deluding myself for trying to improve this relationship rather than just go on out, start over with someone else. But something makes us stay. <p>OK..horns are receeding again..sorry for the spelling errors..no time to check.
T<p>[ May 15, 2002: Message edited by: Twyla ]<p>[ May 15, 2002: Message edited by: Twyla ]</p>

so i'm no longer numb... not sure what you would call what i am now...<p>i've been thinking... trying to be realistic and figure out what to do next... clearly we don't have the marriage that either me or my husband wanted... the question now becomes what kind of marriage can we have...<p>let's assume my husband is right and i'm delusional... be it that he's the only one with his feet on solid ground it's up to him to save this thing or not... so when i get home today i'm going tell him that i agree, i'm delusional... then i'm going to ask him to tell me what he wants our marriage to look like...<p>if his vision is something that i can live with then i'll ask him how he think we can get there... if it's not then it's time for us to start to figure out how to dismantle this marriage...<p>does this make sense?...<p>oaktown...

Oak, some great stuff on this thread. In particular JL was very profound in "What we both need to realize is that this isn't a battle between us; but a battle by us against losing our marriage".<p>The concept of "us being in this together with the same goal in mind" is powerful. What a positive mindset. My H and I are in counseling with SH and are on the brink of presenting each other with the EN questionnaire and LB questionnaire. Oak if you haven't downloaded these from this website it's a good way to look inside and begin to heal. Anyway this mindset is something I am going to add to my part of the presentation; kind of an opening statement of sorts. CSue

Oaktown-
I think it partly makes sense, but what you sound to me is fatalistic. You sounds like you are saying ok, I'm wrong, you're right, you lead. <p>That's not the way it works. This is a two way project. You are not delusional, except that you see all of this from your own point of view, which is normal. He sees it from his point of view. You can't ignore the other half of the partnership and come up with a plan that will meet both of your needs.<p>The other thing, that took me years to honestly face, is that I always assumed that my H's "way" was the "right" way to approach just about anything because he was rational, factual and absolutely dispassionately sure he was always right. To the point I gave up having an opinion. Don't do this. You always have an opinion about what YOU want and what YOU need. These are not the only things your M needs to address, but they must be included. You know this. So don't just hand this over to your H and say I tried, I give up, you do it. You just started. You opened the dialog. Now hear his side and start re-building something you both want.<p>Also, just because you are the WS, you have not lost all rights to help determine your future. You don't want to come up with a vision that is something you can just live with. You want it to be the best that the two of you can have together.

((( OAK )))<p>What you can learn now, is how well you stand up to criticism ... (whether or not the criticism is founded or unfounded in your opinion). Do you get crushed and collapse when you are criticised? Do you actively listen and accept the effort as if these words were spoken with love and concern? You do not have to collapse ... "Yes, you're right, I'm wrong, whatever you say is right" ---->THAT is PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE coping behavior, and not a healthy way to deal with conflict.<p>Try to listen actively to what he says (make sure you understand exactly what he means by clarifying)... and accept that the opinions from your WH are valid from his viewpoint, but you are free to have your own opinions.<p>This is the work that ALL long-term relationships go through .... ALL ............. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

I have a male perspective on this last reply/question (posted on the bottom of page 1) And that is that I can listen to someone else's problems, because I only usually only have to hear it once and usually for a short period of time. For some reason, it seems that women in general need to be more or less constantly heard and re-assured. <p>My wife repeats to me the same problems over and over again, and I get quite tired of hearing it after 19 years. The problem may involve different circumstances, but the problem is always the same. <p>In my particular case, my wife doesn't really love herself or have a positive affirmation of who she is and is constantly projecting other people's "intentions" into their actions or words. ie ..our daughter 15 yr old failed to call home immediately upon arrival at her grandmothers house.. a two hour flight away. My wife was furious and insisted that our daughter was disrespecting her and that she should return home immediately. I had to listen to a 6 hours of ranting and raving about this single event. It all was repeated a few months later when my wife's mother came for a short visit and when her mother returned home and didn't call immediately to let us know she had arrived safely.. I had to listen to another 4 hour rant about how nobody respects her. <p>So, because I become unattentive during these rants, I am the unloving, uncaring husband who doesn't listen to his wife. I keep my mouth shut, because I when I have tried to offer a "solution" I of course have been told to "just listen". <p>I understand the need for women to just be listen too... but for me.. it has gotten old and I am too tired anymore. <p>To carry this a step further, (these are my feelings about my situation) I don't care for this Dr. Phil type of solution and it is not working for me anymore and in fact it may have backfired for me. I have grown to dislike my wife after having to "listen to her" for the past several years. I think it would have been better not to hear the things she has to say, because I find them often mean and spitefull, not to mention completely selfcentered.<p>I have been feeling especially down this past week as I near the 3yr anniversary of learning about my wife's affair. I don't feel that we have made any real progress and as I feel less wanting to listen to her, I see her ready to use this as an excuse to have another affair. <p>I feel trapped, I've been accused as the bad guy, the one who didn't show her enough respect, enough love, didn't listen to her enough, so therefore it was a good enough reason for her to go out and have an affair. I can't confront her with her emotion crap as I become the bad guy again, I don't understand her. <p>Well, you know.. I don't understand..and maybe that is the male in me or maybe it is something else. I listen and I don't get it. How can a person go through the same emotional crap day in and day out and not find a solution. The solution has to be in believing in yourself and loving yourself the way that you are. The validation of who you are is not in other peoples actions or words.<p>Sorry to dump that last bit of hostile emotional crap, but it just has been eating at me the past few days, and this is just my feelings from my perspective in my current relationship.<p>And even though all of these words above by me is an emotional outburst about my own situation and perhaps it is better posted somewhere else, I think Cloud, two replies up, is saying something I wish my wife could hear, truly hear and absorb. Stand up for your self, find your own position, you are a good person, you've made mistakes, but you husband doesn't necessarily have the answers or solutions. But, for sure you have to find and be strong and confident in yourself first.<p>[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: raymond d ]</p>