Hello. If you have read my previous posts in "can't stand the emptiness" I had decided to take a week off from this diaster. I didn't. Instead I ended up calling WS too much yesterday and we fought...and major LB's. Things had been going fairly well up to that point. I just wanted some answers.
WS is furious with me for phone calls yesterday. He said he really doesn't ever want to get back in any situation with me after yesterday. That prior to that he was wondering if it could work again. It makes me crazy that the only time that is OK for us to talk about our M is when he feels like it, which is once every month basically. It makes me feel like what he feels is so conditional..how can one day he want it and other days he doesn't. He wants to be friends-slowly build-yet, doesn't want to spend any time alone with me. How will we ever reach that point?
I'm the mom--not the friend-in his eyes.
Question: Am I being played? He wants to keep me in the running but not make any big efforts?
WS said that he is willing to stop seeing PUKE and go to MC. However, his purpose is to learn how to talk to me so we don't fight all the time. He is giving no commitment that we will "get back together". I said, well, some M issues will probably come up..are you willing to talk about them? He said yes.
Question: Is he just afraid to say he is back in the game and wants to see how things go or is he a complete avoider? Just going along with things?
Question: Should I go to MC with him? Is it worth it at this point given his inablity to say, I want a marriage? Or is that something that we determine in counseling?
I have told him today that I want 15 minutes to talk to him tonight. I'm trying to decide what to say.
My feelings are: I am going to schedule counseling. He agrees not to contact PUKE for one month. And go back to Plan A. It was working but I lost it. The problem is that the better we get along, the crazier that I act. I want things to happen faster and WH is keeping me at arm's length. I feel like I am being punished or being kept wondering on purpose...like he is game playing. I guess if I was truly concentrating on myself it wouldn't matter as much but it's difficult to do that when I don't know which way my life is going to go. For some reason, I don't do "wait and see' well. It's like I either want to say, No, I'm done or Yes, it'll work after alot of work.
Do you think he is still in the fog, just a jerk, afraid to recommit, etc.?
Isn't it reasonable that I am going to have good and bad days and he should listen sometimes to the bad days without judging so harshly?
Thanks for any comments.
-CS

CS-<p>OK, lets look at this situation from both sides and see what is going on here. But first, I am not trying to justify WH's actions or condemn yours, but just trying to show that there are 2 sides to this. Given that, you also have to remember that WH has a bad case of moose-brain worms, he really isn't thinking like a rational person should, he is fogged in and you need to remember that when dealing with him.<p>So, you called him for the sole purpose of finding answers to your questions. At this point, WH is not ready to give those answers for whatever reason he has. When you didn't hear what you wanted, you got upset, he got upset and the whole thing snowballed from there. Lesson learned, right? I was telling Dreamland about the cheeseless tunnels, well, here is one for you, don't run down this one anymore, leave it be for now. WH says that he is having doubts now, that prior to this last call, he was considering getting back together, but now you have sealed the deal. Hogwash, plain and simple, he found a reason to justify his fogged-up reasoning and is going to go with that regardless if it is right or wrong. But, look at it from his perspective, do you blame him for feeling this way? No, it doesn't mean he should be saying these things, but to him, you don't look to appealing right now (sorry, not a slam on your part) and that is a huge part of Plan A or even 180's. Whats happened has happened, don't dwell on it, learn from it and move on, it is never as bad as we think it is.<p>To answer some of your questions: First, if WH is willing to go to MC, seize that opportunity! A good MC is exactly what you need and can really help both of you. Let the MC do all the hard work, let them pry the information from WH and give suggestions on what to do. Seems like WH may be more apt to make some commitments and do some real work if the suggestions come from a MC. Somewhere here is a link that can help you find a good MC in your area. Have you considered the Harleys? WH is most probably afraid to admit he wants to work things out because he doesn't want to have to deal with the guilt, shame and pain he has caused. It is up to you to show him you wont use this information against him or go flying off the handle every time he brings up something uncomfortable for you to hear.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> My feelings are: I am going to schedule counseling. He agrees not to contact PUKE for one month. And go back to Plan A.<hr></blockquote>. Unfortunately, those are demands and will probably do more harm than good. Yes, schedule the counseling and meet WH there and see what happens, but don't push anything, don't give WH reason to pull back further.<p>Do you remember when I told you about leading the dance? You gotta keep on leading and let WH follow, its hard and I know you aren't seeing the results you want as quickly as you want, but just give it a bit more time, see where the MC goes. Let things simmer down for a few days, I'm guessing that if you don't call WH for a while, you'll be hearing from him soon. Don't initiate any contact with him, hard as that is to do, let him do the pursuing for a while.<p>If this helps, think about this like fly-fishing. Before the first cast, the fisherperson determines what the best bait to use is by observing what the fish are biting at. Then, they make several quick casts (throw out and pull back right away) not to try and catch a fish, but to get them to take notice and interested in what is going on. Then, they cast out, let the bait float for a few minutes and then pull back again. If nothing happens after a few tries, they cast into another place, repeating the process over and over until they catch a fish. So, you are the fisherperson, your Plan A efforts and improvements are the bait, your casting is you learning how to deal with the situation and WH is that little fishy hiding behind that rock, hungry for what you have to offer, but just a little apprehensive to come out and take a nibble (because he is scared and worried about what might happen). But, keep working him with that bait and soon enough, he wont be able to resist himself, and then, WHAM, you have him hooked! Reel him in slowly so not to break the line or get him caught in a snag or behind a rock, and then gently put him in the net (being your loving arms and your marriage). And please, once you have caught him, don't cook him for dinner!<p>Your doing fine, CS, nothing you have posted so far looks like your M is headed south.
[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: loveherstill ]</p>

LHS-
Thank you for your answers. I will keep it simple tonight-just tell him that I'm going to take him up on the counseling and that's it.
I'm just so afraid that he is jerking me around because he is so angry about the last year of our marriage -it's hard not to have a definitive direction- and by being pleasant I'm allowing myself to look like a wimp.
The fine line in Plan A between controling one's self and being pleasant to S/hanging out when appropriate- is a fine line to me-I have a difficult time seeing how to do both. Or how they don't contradict each other. Example: WS has the kids friday night for son's baseball game. It is appropriate that I go to son's game-fine with both of us. Do I go? Or do I act like I have other plans? (I go to all other events of kids)
.
I can't wait to find a full-time job..I hope that'll distract me from this. I feel like such a flake about this and I really am the most stable, sensible person in other situations.
How is your week going?
Thanks for listening.
-CS

One quick comment -- stop calling the OW "puke." It does you no good and it perpetuates a feeling of resentment. Calling her the "OW" is sufficient. That resentment eats you up and hurts you, not her.

LHS-
Hi. I didn't even talk to him last night. It was hectic and I didn't feel like pursuing it. WS sat down a couple of times after I got home (which is unsual)but I didn't mention anything and he didn't ask what I wanted to talk about so he left.
I haven't called him today and he hasn't called here. Big game tonight that he is watching with "friends." I so much want to ask if PUKE will be there. I feel like he did stop seeing her for awhile and is seeing her again but no evidence either way.
I am praying today for the strength to not call WS and to find some way to fill the void that WS's departure has left. If I can't have WS back, I want to fill it with someone else but I know that is the not answer for me for at least one year.
Today I took the kids out to the lake and it was such a beautiful day. I thought about WS and wished he was there with us. It's not the same.
When does that feeling go away? When will I truly let go of WS and be OK again? When will I not want him with me?
I know there are no real answers to that but I wish there was.
-CS

Hi CS...<p>I haven't posted much to you lately, but I have been following your threads...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>When does that feeling go away? When will I truly let go of WS and be OK again? When will I not want him with me? <hr></blockquote><p>??? that is a tough question... and one that we cannot answer.<p>My best guess is that you may have to FORCE yourself to stop focusing on him and wondering what he is doing... ACT AS IF... My mother-in-law told me last summer when my H left to give myself 10 minutes a day to wallow in misery and wonder about H... then I had to let go... I didn't take her advice then... but now (hindsight), I sse the value in it...<p>You are going to have to make a conscious decision... BrambleRose suggested Melodie Beatty's books "The Language of Letting Go I and II." WONDERFUL AFFIRMATIONS to help you 'let go.'<p>Hugs,
Cali

What Cali says is exactly right, you need to make a conscious decision about not worrying about WH, OW and all the pain this has brought you. Its hard to do, especially at first, but as time goes by, it gets easier until it almost becomes second nature. But don't force it either, you need to allow your emotions an opportunity to be dealt with, suppressing them will only lead to more problems later on. Allow yourself to feel these things, understand why you are feeling them, then let them go and move on. It's a process that you have to go through, not a very pleasant one, but one that will make you a stronger person.<p>Don't be to quick to push WH aside either, as long as you still have feelings for him and a longing for him, then there is still hope. I think that a good Plan A makes you really have to fight to go to Plan B and then possibly a D. The easy route would be to throw up your arms and say "I give up!", but you have such love and compassion for your H and family that you choose the most difficult path to follow. So now you are in Plan A, fighting to keep yourself together, looking at yourself and making the changes you want and avoiding all those nasty LB's. Its so very hard, but you know it is the right thing to do. You do Plan A so that if Plan B becomes necessary, you can go into it knowing that you did your best and have no regrets whatsoever. I know you are not ready for that step yet, I can see it in your posts.<p>You did good last night! I'll bet WH's gears were grinding while he was trying to figure out why you haven't mentioned the A, OW or the M. Let him get curious about you, let him wonder why you are being the complete opposite of what he expects, cast that bait out there and yank it back a couple of times, let fishy come out from behind the rock, don't go splashing into the river looking for him, you'll just scare him away.<p>As far as tomorrows game, GO! Get there before WH does and let him find you, be aloof and flirtatious with him, play him for a change, have some fun with him, remember when you were first dating, I'll bet he chased you all over the place. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] He stopped by the house (he made the effort!) after your last big blowup when he said he as having second thoughts, he's not done, not by a longshot. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>And, Mr Bunky is right about calling OW 'PUKE', maybe we should just refer to her as the OW, she doesn't deserve anything more.

Cali and LHS-
I made it through the day. I didn't call WH and he didn't call here. I'm doing OK. Today I looked at a house near my parents and it's the first time I've felt myself seeing the future without H and being excited that I'll be OK. I think I need a change of scenery. My lawyer doesn't want me to leave the house or sell it until things are signed. We're at least a month from that. I don't think it's good for my mental health to remain in this house. I can't explain it but I would be better starting somewhere else. I wouldn't be so accessable to WS and he would know I am serious about moving forward and letting go.I know that the M books recommend not doing that so it's easier for the S to return, etc. and not to make any major decisions for six months.
For me, I just feel like I'm in a holding pattern and not much is changing for me.
I don't think I'm giving up WH yet, I miss him so but something needs to change for me. I'm just not moving forward like I should.
I think the 10 minute a day focus is a fabulous idea. I'll try it.
Bunky-I had never thought that naming the OW adds additional resentment or adds more importance to her. I'll think about it. I'm not sure that I agree but I always appreciate suggestions and honesty.
Thanks all-
CS

Hey, I just wanted to let you know I feel your pain. I am new to all of this but when I get discouraged or just want to call him at work and say "What the hell are you doing to us?" I get on these boards. Since I found out I wasn't alone it gives me great comfort. I have probably spent hours searching these boards. I have found some great advice and solace in knowing I am not alone. We are all here for you. Keep being positive. Create a good network of supportive friends who will listen without judging or bashing the H. Get on the boards here and rant and rave. Go see a funny movie. Love your kids. Don't give up on yourself, H, or your marriage. Believe a brighter day is out there. Don't worry about what he is thinking he is NOT thinking clearly right now. I know it sucks to hear but you need to be the strong one right now. Let us all know how it is going.
Hugs,
layli

The first time my H left me,(we were not married at the time, but did have 2 kids) two things started him coming around. 1) I stopped asking him if we could work it out and get back together and 2) I moved from where we used to live. It was about 6 months after he left I moved. (except in this case, where we used to live was his mother's duplex) His comment was, it looks like I'm moving on and will start dating. (I'm not necessarily recommending you move, in my situation I felt it was time I found a place to live that did not involve him mom.)<p>Also, you may never get answers to some of you questions. And if you do, it will be when he is ready to talk. So, you might want to avoid that situation. From my experience from before, he talked when he was ready. (didn't talk much, because at the time, I was not ready and I avoided it, wont' make that mistake again)

SWH and L-
Thanks for your responses. It's is so great to get home to an empty house and check the computer and have responses. I asked my WH about housing material today (he builds houses) and told him about the house. He said he would be willing to help me fix it up and schedule people in, etc. It's a mess. So I am encouraged. He understands why I'd move for a number of reasons (schools, new start, etc). Interestingly enough, it is a house that he and I wished we could have bought a few years ago. I also asked him about getting a dog (I'm not a big fan, he is) and what his opinion is..the kids desparately want one...and he said he'd help with it..training, take it on his weekends, etc. Part of wonders if he thinks in the back of mind that he may be a part of these major undertakings in the future. Probably wishful thinking on my part. He is most likely feeling guilty and offering help for the kids.
LHS-
I didn't stay for the game tonight. WH was ONE HOUR late meeting me and if I stayed, I would have LB'd all over. He did call but I didn't have phone with me. He said he had to work late. It is likely he did but I can't believe anything.
On a more positive note, today he asked what I was doing Sunday and if I'd like to go to the driving range or something (with kids). This is a first since he left. It's his birthday and I think he's feeling alone. I guess I go or is this meeting a need that would be better if he felt the consequences of holidays without family?
My instinct is to go.
Happy Weekend all! I'm feeling good about my no phone calls since our blow-out.
-CS

bump!

CS-<p>Good job with the game. You recognized your limits and took appropriate actions, definetly showing the results of a good Plan A.<p>As far as the moving, make sure you take this very, very slowly. Make sure you are doing this not to manipulate WH or to try and win him back, but becasue it is the right thing to do for work, kids, etc. Remember, you aint done with WH yet and there is still a real possibility that you will get back together. But, like you said, its something you both wanted to do, so maybe it isnt such a bad thing to do after all. Just be careful with this huge decision.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>He is most likely feeling guilty and offering help for the kids.<hr></blockquote> Hey, dont do anything to discourage this if you cant. That guilt will kill an A better than anything we can do, let it eat at him, let it cause him to LB OW.<p>If you can handle being around him, do it. Let him come over and help out with the house, dogs, kids, etc. Let him see what being a part of the family was like. If you can do it, kick Plan A up a notch and let him see what he is missing. See, last week after your big blow-up he was telling you it was over, and now he is wanting to come around and help out with 'dad' things. Take this as a big positive sign. <p>But, just remember to expect nothing and you wont be disappointed. Dont push anything, dont bring up the A, OW, M or your future, let WH bring it up, and then be as evasive as possible, let him wonder about you and wher his future lies with you.<p>You are in control here, you are calling the plays.

Hello. I spent a few hours with kids and WH for his b-day today. Baked cake/presents. It went fine; however, after he left, I felt used. I felt like he got his family time and when he left he was going to party. His roommate has the same birthday and they are having a party tonight-20 to 30 people-some are bringing kids.
I am disappointed that he didn't invite me or even the kids separately. My guess is that OW will be there. If so, that's bad. It'll be the first time (that I am aware) that WH will be public with OW in front of his friend's wives (my acquaintances).
I didn't say anything to him except "sounds like fun."
He went and looked at the house with me today. He said he hopes that I can figure out a way to get it and we should get this house on the market. Absolutely no remarks about it being a house for all of us.
While I know it's important not to have expectations, I feel let down. Let down that he is having a party that I'm not included in...2 years ago I had the same party for WH and friend at our house.
I feel like it was easier for WH to have me along for the time today to help with kids -since he couldn't have them at his house.
It seems best to me if I do not have any contact with WH. It's too depressing.
I wish I wouldn't have agreed.
-CS

I am having an absolutely terrible night. WH said he'd call kids tonight...he didn't. Kids called him-no answer at a party with 20 people? Either OW was there or WH wasn't. His roommate doesn't answer if WH isn't there cuz he doesn't want to lie for him. It would be easier for me if WH would quit lying to me..why bother. It's been three plus months since we've separated.
I feel like today's activity with WH was all about getting his birthday over with /with family.
I know...no expectations. But it just doesn't work that way for me. How can he have a party five minutes away and not invite me or the kids?
I can't continue to feel this way...it is awful. I try to quit whining and pick myself up and do something and I do..but it's right back to this. Crying and feeling awful.
Thanks for listening.
-CS

{{{{{Cant Sleep}}}}} I hope you are feeling better today, what an awful thing to have happen. It never ceases to amaze me how inconsiderate a WS can be, but should we expect anything more from them? Wish there was something I could say to make you feel better, about all I can offer is that it does get better and know that you have the absolute best support group you could ever find right here at MB. You are not alone in this, we all have experienced the exact same feelings you have and fully understand, and it does get better, it really does!<p>Do you have day-to-day contact with any of the people who were at the party? If WH is "coming out of the closet" so to speak, it would be interesting to hear how he explains it and how people react. If he is in fact going public you know that will put additional strains on the A which will lead to more LB-ing on their parts. How much respect do you think he will loose from his friends and co-workers, especially those wives, when this get out? What will you tell these people when they ask you questions?<p>If you don't think you can take anymore of this, maybe its time to switch gears a bit and try something else, what you are doing now is only causing you more heartache. Yes, it does seem like WH is getting the best of both worlds, and maybe he is which leaves you feeling used and like a doormat. I don't think it is time for Plan B yet, but how about this:<p>First, get those separation papers signed and made legal. Make sure that everything (I mean everything) is spelled out and very specific, like visitation (when, where and with who, like not with OW), money, checking/saving accounts and whatever else. Since you're the atty, you know exactly what your rights are, use this knowledge to your benefit. Then, get separate checking and savings accounts, see if you can ban WH from any credit cards and such, make your financial lives completely separate.<p>Second, don't let WH be an integral part of your life anymore. Its great that you are not discussing M, A, OW or your future, but maybe its time to take it a step further. Start limiting contact with WH to issues involving the kids or finances, put some emotional distance between the 2 of you for now. Don't take any more phone calls, let the answering machine take it and then call him back later. Don't accept all invitations to see him, maybe only every third or so, and then don't agree right away, tell him you have to check your schedule. If your looking for a new house, don't let him be a part of it anymore, make this your decision and yours alone, but be sure you can do this legally.<p>I guess what I am trying to say is that its too soon to go to Plan B or to give up. You gotta keep doing Plan A (remember that it is for your benefit, not WH's) but if it is getting too difficult to be with WH a lot and you fear you are going to make some major LB's., then it is time to step back for a little while. This is not to manipulate WH in any way, its mainly for you to get yourself together and avoid any situations that leave you feeling so depressed. But, if in the course of doing this, it makes WH wonder if you are moving on without him, then that's a bonus.<p>Anyway, that's my take on it. Hopefully you will get some more advice on what do to. Just hang in there, this situation sucks, but its not the end of your M, not even close.
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Well, unfortunately I was right. OW stayed the night at WH's. He admitted it. Big argument. We had to spend 2 hours together at the dentist's with kids. He said he didn't invite her, she came with someone, she slept on couch, etc. I just can't believe he did that after spending the day with us. I also believe that his roommate is doing everything he can to ensure that WH doesn't return to M because WH helps with rent and is a party buddy. Friend doesn't like to be alone.
WH said as of right now, he is not dating her to prove to me that the failure of our relationship has nothing to do with her. He said I've been acting worse since he left, which isn't true.
I asked him if he'd stop seeing her for awhile and -as friends-work on us and take it slowly and see how it goes.
His response, which I guess is no, is when am I going to find a f/t job (big issue) and treat him with dignity/respect?
He said he didn't think he was ever returning to me and never going back to the old situation. He said the old move-on speech to me.
I asked him to watch the game here tonight/dinner and he said he had plans but any other night. This is said in the same breath as it's never going to work.
He said he is still willing to go to counseling but to learn to talk to each other without anger not to save the marriage.
As I reread my posts, I realize I sound pathetic. If I wouldn't have asked about last night, we wouldn't have had a fight. Yet, I wouldn't have known he is still seeing her and I would continue to be snowed. He said he forced my hand. I wanted a d and now I got one (threatened in past). He is so anger and bitter towards me. I feel like he is being really cruel.
I know now that my husband thinks he can do whatever he wants without consequences. I am not acting in control of anything. I don't feel in control of anything. How am I in control? My husband isn't coming back. He is just playing me. I don't know how to do this. Controlling myself doesn't make me feel any better because it's my husband that I wanted. Cleaning the house, exercising, looking for job, etc. -none of it makes me feel any closer to anything or better about my situation. I acknowledge this isn't a healthy response. I am just not there. Why is it taking me so long to move on and accept Plan A concepts. Why am I fighting it so hard?
I feel so miserable.
-CS

LHS-
We posted at the same time. I agree with what you are suggesting. I need to be a distance from him to function without wanting him back.
Thanks for your post.
-CS

If you have not read it yet, I recommend you read Tough Love. Perhaps you will find something of value in it.<p>One of my favorite quotes from Dr. Phil (not the author of Tough Love) is, "How's that workin for ya?" He says it whenever someone complains about their situation and how what they are doing does not lead to change. The basic premise is that if what you are doing is not working, change what you are doing. You have been seperated for some time now. Perhaps it is time for you to consider other alternatives. Only you can decide when you are ready for different boundaries so please don't do anything you are not yet ready to do.

Mr. B-
You are right. It's not working for me. Personally or marriage wise. I can Plan A for a few days and things get better and then I blow it. I have such a hard time with the silence. I don't why I am so weak when it comes to this-I've accomplished other difficult goals.
I have read Tough Love and found it wonderful. In fact, I read it twice. Not doing such a good job, am I? Point taken.
Will a Plan B ever be productive w/o a successful Plan A?
Thanks.
-CS