Does your WS “Get It?”

Do you think your WS really understands and takes responsibility for what they’ve done?

Or have they just said, “I’m sorry. I get it. It won’t happen again. Let’s move on?”

When he stops defending his actions -- and the actions of the other people involved -- and takes responsibility for it, *then* I will know that he really DOES “get it.”

So far, all of his answers boil down to “It was all normal business behavior. But I’ll never do it again.”

Now, doesn’t that just make a sh*tload of sense?

This is why I am still so angry. He defends and excuses and justifies every last detail I ask
him about, and has *nothing* even the slightest bit negative to say about the wonderful talented women who so happily helped him ruin his marriage.

*This* is “getting it?”

As long as someone is still defending their actions, they haven’t “gotten” the most
important and most needed part of recovery: that what they did CANNOT BE DEFENDED.

Responsibility and straight answers are what bring about healing -- not excuses,
justifications, rationalizations, defensiveness, and protecting the OP.

Yeah, a little responsibility and a few straight answers would be real nice right about now.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As long as someone is still defending their actions, they haven’t “gotten” the most
important and most needed part of recovery: that what they did CANNOT BE DEFENDED.

Responsibility and straight answers are what bring about healing -- not excuses,
justifications, rationalizations, defensiveness, and protecting the OP.

Yeah, a little responsibility and a few straight answers would be real nice right about now.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is as true and as succintly put as I've ever seen it. Thanks!

Well...

It's my personal opinion that recovery does not start until there are both words and actions that the WS does "get it".

My FWH gets it.

Until that happens, then it is not only being pushed under the rug, but the lack of "getting it" as far as I am concerned means that another affair is almost certainly guaranteed.

I can't imagine recovery without being able to discuss what happened and why with my husband. He and I still have discussions about infidelity that assure me that my husband understands far more about marriage than either of us did 3 years ago.

Because we understand what made our marriage vulnerable, we are taking pro-active steps to strengthen those weaknesses.

I can't tell you what a balm it is to my hurts and fears when my husband says: "I reinstalled my computer software today, here's my passwords." or...as he said just a few days ago: "You have the right to read anyhting you want in my email at any time."

Calling to reassure me where he is whenever he is out, always having his cell phone on, making sure he meets my needs for affection, that we spend that minumum of 15 hours...all these are things that HE does.

I couldn't honestly say it was recovery if he wasn't doing these things. I certainly couldn't remain in this marriage.

Steve Harley told me to divorce my husband when he didn't "get it" after a number of talks with Steve. Thank God he did "get it" before our divorce happened.

It's very true that WS needs to "get it" before recovery can happen. That said, it's also very true that the BS must understand THEIR responsibility for creating a situation where an A COULD happen.

What ENs were you not filling? Did you LB? Have you taken ownership of the behaviors that emptied your account in the WS's love bank? Perhaps if WS sees that YOU are working to understand how this could have happened, and WS sees that YOU "get it," it will encourage WS to own their behavior. Being accusatory in a search for an apology would make ANYBODY defensive.

Of course the WS did things that cannot be defended. But in most, if not all, cases, the BS did things that undermined the WS's love bank, making them SEEK the satisfaction of ENs through other means. IMHO those behaviors are also indefensable. Unfortunately it seems that many BSs get so caught up in the hurt and pain that they fail to analyze their own contribution to the A.

It's one thing to vent here, but I don't think it's conducive to reconciliation to let your WS see any of that. There is a REASON that Plan A includes a lack of LB's. It's hard to avoid them when the BS is hurting, but it's essential to do so.

I hope this helps.

<<<Of course the WS did things that cannot be defended. But in most, if not all, cases, the BS did things that undermined the WS's love bank, making them SEEK the satisfaction of ENs through other means.>>>

Sorry, Ms. JPW, you are dead wrong this time. This is the conventional wisdom concerning cheating, but it is only wishful thinking.

Most people would *like* to believe this. The happily married person can say, "Well, I'll make sure MY spouse is well taken care of so they won't have to look elsewhere." They can tell themselves they're safe from being cheated on.

The cheaters can say, "Well, something was lacking at home so I had a right to go out and get it someplace else."

Perfect, no?

Sorry to tell you, but our married life at home was very good. We enjoyed each other's company, loved our family life, and scheduled honeymoon weekends whenever we could (this after many years of marriage.)

He was the one who discovered he could *also* help himself to the buffet at work as long as he didn't let his trusting wife find out about it.

This was his choice. Nothing "made" him do this. He chose to sneak around and lie to me for the same reason every other cheater does: he got the opportunity and honestly believed he was way too smart to get caught.

What EN was I not fulfilling? Let's see: how about his EN for a trashy mini-skirted bimbo who sucked up to him and stroked his ego and cried on his shoulder and stuck her @ss in his face all the live-long day, and who happily reinforced the idea that it was ok to lie to his wife? He'd already convinced himself that any time they spent together was perfectly ok since they worked together, and she was more than happy to go right along with that idea.

Yeah, I really fell down on the job when it came to that one. You're right. It was MY fault that he got all mixed up with her, poor baby.

Psycho_B***h, the aptly named

Yes, my H gets is now. But it was some 15 or 16 months after d-day #1 before he 'got it'. And during those long, long months we had been to 4 months of MC, I had plan Aed with a mission for the first year and kept LBs to an all time low, read a library of relationship, infidelity, marriage and litany of other self-help books, done everything under the stars to 'remedy' everything my H ever complained about, and had the lion's share of responsibility for financial supporting our family (as I still do), parented two preschoolers who were suffering from neglect by their father, and kept up appearances in our family life so that H did not have to face his family and friends over his A. None of that worked. He kept saying he 'got it', kept making promises and breaking them, and continued blaming me in one form or another for all the misery in his life. Never mind that I had been holding his life together for years before the A, that I had been shouldering his rages and anger attacks for years, never mind that I supported him through thick and thin even after his A, and that I finally crumbled under the weight of it all and descended into a deep depression right before his very eyes. He still did not 'get it'.

So, after a year of this, I forced a separation and sent him packing. I was at the end of my rope and ready to end our M, if H did not step up to the plate and make some of those changes he had been promising. H asked me for 90 days before I filed for D, in exchange for a peaceful exit from our home. I agreed.

The separation was the best thing for our M recovery, despite the irony. H finally went to an IC regularly, saw a psychiatrist, took the advice given and the meds prescribed, and started to make some big changes. He faltered, reverted to his old habits some times, but tried to stay consistent to the changes he said he was committed to making.

It was during our separation that H finally 'got it', finally took responsibility for what he had done (and what he had CHOSEN to do), finally felt truly remorseful for the A and the hurt it caused to me and our children, and finally started to act responsibly.

So, yes, my H - the WS - does 'get it'. But the road to real recovery was far too long, if you ask me.

I suppose it is good that I stuck it out as long as I did, did the plan A thing, tried to be patient and responsive, and kept the family together, fed, clothed and as secure as I could. But the long road has exacted a price on me personally. It has been over 22 months since d-day, and I am still suffering from depression as well as a host of other physical health problems resulting from H's past choices.

If only H had 'gotten it' sooner...

Have you and H been to MC? Have either of you had IC? Do you have the support of your spiritual community, friends, and family? Do you have a detailed recovery plan in place? Has your H read anything about recovery from infidelity? How have you and your H dealt with the A and its fall-out?

All of these things are an important part of a successful recovery, IMHO.

Hugs,

Hi P,

Good thread...my H doesn't get it "yet". No way...still thinks it's all me.

He was the greatest husband around. I'm the one that didn't nurture the marriage.

All about "me". I certainly hope that one day, we can compromise.

He must "get it" for healing to begin.

I'm with you PsychoB,
Mrs. JPW does state the conventional explaination for A's but my marriage does not fit the mold either. I DO NOT take responsibility for my H's lack of self control when he went to a bar and spent 4 night's with the OW while I was in another state taking care of his children, house, yard and anxiously awaiting wild sex on his return.

My H does "get it" and he will be the first to tell you that he made the biggest mistake of his life. He wanted to "fit in" with the other hot shot military pilots who were screwing around. He had to much to drink, accepted a ride to his hotel and ended up in her bed. He went back 3 more times <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

OK, sorry Psycho, I was about to take over your name. In some cases needs are not being met by BOTH partners, but I can't sit by when I read the "take responsibility for your partners adultury" stuff...I don't buy it.

Well, he gets it that it was wrong, yes. But I think he is more sorry that I found out than sorry for what he did.

Problem is that I want to talk about it and he doesn't. He doesn't get the recovery part,therefore recovery has been minimal especially for me. I need some solid answers about what happened, where, when, why, thoughts, feelings, you know, gut spilling stuff.

The info I get is vague, incomplete, minimal, unsatisfing. He either can not or will not meet my needs which by most people's standards are minimal. Out of 1000 puzzle pieces I have about 200 so far.

He says he has mostly bad memories of OW, but has not said what they are. I need him to be genuinely angry at this woman for hurting ME!!!!! H is very critical of most people, but will not say anything specifically bad about OW. His silence about OW when he is so verbal about everything else is really painful for me, I need him to talk, talk, talk.

Msjpw---I think we all "get it" that a BS has to take responsibility for our contribution to the state of our marriage pre-A. OK, soooo, the WS ALSO has to take responsibility for their contribution to the state of the marriage pre-A.
OK, soooo, now we are even, lets play fair here, both parties are taking responsibility for their own "stuff" pre-A.

Sooooo........good marriage or bad marriage, the DECISION to have an A is just that, a DECISION. The decision to recommit, rebuild, recover, is just that , a decision. It has to do with maturity, character, willingness to make DECISIONS.

Replaced

My WW doesn't get it. She thinks I should be over it, hell its been 6 months (with her away 4 of those).

She's over it, why keep bringing it up. Hey Ben why aint ya over it yet? (Ben whacks head on wall - repeatedly).

I love your last bit as Spacecase said.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by psycho_b:
<strong>
What EN was I not fulfilling? Let's see: how about his EN for a trashy mini-skirted bimbo who sucked up to him and stroked his ego and cried on his shoulder and stuck her @ss in his face all the live-long day, and who happily reinforced the idea that it was ok to lie to his wife? He'd already convinced himself that any time they spent together was perfectly ok since they worked together, and she was more than happy to go right along with that idea.

Yeah, I really fell down on the job when it came to that one. You're right. It was MY fault that he got all mixed up with her, poor baby.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, it sounds like Admiration to me. She made him feel like The Man.

Ms JPW never said it was YOUR FAULT your H strayed. What she did was paraphrase info you can find in one of the Q&A columns on this site (Coping With Infidelity Part I):
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>We are all wired for affairs. The only people who are exempt are
those who are utterly incapable of meeting someone else's
emotional needs. If you can't meet anyone's needs, no one will
ever fall in love with you. But if your spouse has anything to offer
others, and you are not meeting an important emotional need,
commitment to "forsake all others" can become words without
meaning. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you really were/are meeting all your H's important ENs and he still strayed, then he's a scumbag. Dump him.

If Admiration is his #1 need and you're not meeting it, then he's going to find it a lot easier to rationalize anything he has to do to get it filled, than to give up the source of its satisfaction.

I understand you're in a lot of pain. And it's doubly hard to express admiration for a man who is doing/has done something like this to you. But I think the first step toward real recovery is an understanding of how you got where you are.

<<<Well, he gets it that it was wrong, yes. But I think he is more sorry that I found out than sorry for what he did.>>>

Join the club. This is exactly where mine is, too.

<<<Problem is that I want to talk about it and he doesn't.>>>

Yes! I NEED to talk about it. It's the only thing that would help, but when we try, he doesn't understand why he has to be the "@sshole" (his words)

<<<He doesn't get the recovery part,therefore recovery has been minimal especially for me.>>>

Yes. His idea of recovery is going out and having a good time together. My idea of recovery is cleaning up the mess by answering all of my questions once and for all. So yeah, it's not going too well.

I started writing down all of my questions this morning. In just a few minutes I had typed out over four pages. After two years of trying to get answers, almost all of the same questions are on that page.

<<<I need some solid answers about what happened, where, when, why, thoughts, feelings, you know, gut spilling stuff. The info I get is vague, incomplete, minimal, unsatisfing.>>>

"Unsatisfying -- " Boy, did you hit the nail on the head. Giving me little bits and pieces -- just throwing me crumbs and hoping they'll shut me up -- is driving me absolutely insane. And the long, long silences and "I don't remembers" make my head explode.

If it was any of his gal-pals who were asking, I have no doubt he'd remember plenty.

<<<If Admiration is his #1 need and you're not meeting it, then he's going to find it a lot easier to rationalize anything he has to do to get it filled, than to give up the source of its satisfaction.>>>

OK, I have racked my brain over this one for a long time. Did I do anything to contribute to this?

On the Emotional Needs questionnaire, his #1 need came out as Affection. I would have said Admiration too, but it's pretty similar. Anyway -- here is a brief description of where we were around 1991 when Bimbo #1 came on the scene:

We both worked for the same large corporation. For the first three years I was in a different center, several miles away.

He was on the management track and climbing up the ladder fast. He loved it and was very, very good at it. The company loved him too and gave him all kinds of rewards for all the success he was having. He could do no wrong as far as his bosses were concerned (and still can't.)

I was not in management and didn't want to be. I have some training as a computer programmer (COBOL, mostly) but no degree, so I was relegated to a job in the trenches answering a phone bank in the collections center.

I did not enjoy this. I never wanted a job like this. I had one kid in high school and another just out of diapers. But my performance was always good and I never made any trouble, and we sure needed the money.

So there we were -- he loved the company and loved his job, and I pretty much hated the company and hated my job. Now, I respected him for what he had accomplished. I knew how hard he worked at something I could never do. And I tried to work out this divide by trying to be his eyes and ears for those of us down in the trenches -- the Little People who, for the most part, are dismissed by Management as a necessary evil.

It was rather like the serf who tries to point out to the king what's really happening in the peasant villages, thinking that the good king will care enough to do something about it.

But this simply was not his problem. We never argued about it, and would have lively and entertaining discussions about it at the time, but looking back now I think he just took it as criticism.

So yeah, you're right. At work, I was not sucking up to him and flirting with him and drooling over him and crying on his shoulder and leading him around the center by his d*ck the way his little chickies were doing.

(Did I mention that once I did work in the same building with him, he made it a strict rule that I was never to touch him or flirt with him while there? Such things were NOT allowed at work. He insisted this could hurt his career. Stupid, stupid me actually went along with this, until it finally dawned on me that this rule only applied to ME -- not to any other female.)

I thought I had more to offer him that being just another of his air-headed yes-girls, but that was not the case. If I am guilty of anything, that's the one -- not meeting his need for Admiration by trying to have honest discussions with him about what was really going on at his beloved Company, and leaving that door wide open for every fluffy little damsel-in-distress bimbo in the place to walk through.

Psycho_B***h

I believe that a WS goes outside the marriage when their ENs are not being met within the marriage. By the way, that is not "wishful thinking" - it's a basic premise of the MB program.

Those BSs who think it's great to just sit and bash their WS and never ONCE look in a mirror will not have successful recoveries. It takes two to make the marriage and it takes two to break it, folks. Does not matter whether you like it or not, it is REALITY.

From HNHN: "..twenty five years of experience with thousands of people has taught me an undeniable truth: IF ANY OF A SPOUSES FIVE BASIC EMOTIONAL NEEDS GOES UNMET, THAT SPOUSE BECOMES VULNERABLE TO THE TEMPTATION OF AN AFFAIR." (emphasis added)

Your WS was VULNERABLE to the A for a REASON: you've given clues as to what some of the possible reasons are in your posts. For now, though, you seem too angry to look at your own culpability in creating a situation where your WS was vulnerable.

It's not wise to walk around full of p*** and vinegar all day, because some of it is bound to spill out! The anger you express is not conducive to reconciliation, and in fact, if you expose your WS to it, you will likely drive him even further away.

You say that you have done the ENQs. Are you certain your spouse is being honest with you? Or, is he perhaps afraid to be honest with you? Have you set a pattern of LBing when he tried to be honest with you so that now, he WONT be? Did you gain that "apt" nickname because you behave in such a way that he now believes you will explode in anger if he IS honest with you?

You say that he took previous conversations with you as criticism. Does he perhaps feel most of your conversations are critical of him? If this has become a pattern for you, can you two openly discuss it and brainstorm for ways to break the habit?

You said your WS had an EN for a "trashy skirted bimbo....who stroked his ego." Try to be radically honest here: is she REALLY trashy or is that your anger? If she IS really trashy, is that what your WS finds attractive? If so, do you meet his need for an attractive spouse? How did you dress during your courtship days? Do you dress now to please him? If not, are you willing to accommodate him?

With respect to his ego....why did he need someone else to stroke it? Does he reveal a high need for admiration on the ENQs? Were you meeting that need? I don't mean the way YOU think it should be met: were you meeting his EN for admiration the way HE NEEDS FOR THAT NEED TO BE MET? You said his female co workers "sucked up" to him, "drooled" over him, etc. Were you doing any of that for him at home at the time the A started?

You mention that you wrote out four pages of questions for your WS. How many of them were of the "how could you do this, you SOB" sort and how many of them were "what were you feeling that caused you to X" type of question?

You indicate that he can "do no wrong" in the eyes of his employer, and that you were unhappy in your job with the same company about the time the A started. Could it be that your job dissatisfaction caused a bit of envy in you, and so you started to find a LOT "wrong" with your H, back when he started the A?

You say that you have two kids, and that at the time of the A you had one in high school and one just out of diapers. Did this impact your weight, grooming, appearance? Was there time for sex? Did you spend the recommended minimum of 15 hours of UNDIVIDED attention with your H every week? Did your H come home to selfish demands for domestic help, or did chores get negotiated out without your "takers" getting involved? Did any angry outbursts occur?

Your comments regarding the "little people," "serfs" and the "king" sound like class envy. Did it sound that way to your H, I wonder?

You say co workers flirted with him at the office...did you flirt with him during your 15 hours of undivided attention?

I know that you need to talk about it with your WS, but it seems from your posts that you use these conversations to punish him. I would think that this is what he means when he tells you that you make him into the [censored]. He knows he did a bad thing - but at some level he also knows that you were not meeting some of his needs - that is what led him astray. From your posts, you don't seem ready to accept that you had ANY part in creating the situation.

A cornered animal doens't respond well to being poked with a stick - it defends itself. That is what your WS is doing: defending himself against what he views as your attack. If what you have been doing is not getting your need to talk about it met, TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT! Try not poking him with that stick for a while! Try to approach him so that he sees that you DO accept SOME responsibility for what has occurred. See if this changes his response to you.

Remember that honesty, wrapped in an LB (like an angry outburst or selfish demand)doesn't fill ANY EN - it only empties your account.

Do you think any of his "air-headed yes girls" have a nickname like yours?

Ms. JPW,
Your posts scream of lack of self-responsibility. Each person has a choice in each and every thing he/she does. If one chooses to have an affair, that is his/her choice and no one else's. Perhaps there are ENs not being met but each partner has a choice. If he/she decides to stray the he/she has absolutely no right to point fingers at the faithful spouse. I think you have twisted some of the MB concepts to fit whatever argument you may be trying to make. There is no excuse for adultery. Period. There IS a right way and a wrong way to address ENs. Even if it's simply walking out the door (instead of lying, cheating, etc).

Blaming the faithful spouse is pure bull.

Everyone has unmet needs in their marriage, but not everyone has an affair. So the something was missing in the marriage so I had an affair just doesn't cut it. There is no one size fit all when you are dealing with affairs. Human behavior is extremely complex so it doesn't make sense that you there can be such a simplistic reason why infidelity happens. Unmet needs may or may not be a factor in why an affair happens but a WS could have found other ways to deal with than have an affair.

<<<Your WS was VULNERABLE to the A for a REASON: you've given clues as to what some of the possible reasons are in your posts. For now, though, you seem too angry to look at your own culpability in creating a situation where your WS was vulnerable.>>>

You are missing something here. I just explained to you what I thought my part in this might have been.

<<<It's not wise to walk around full of p*** and vinegar all day, because some of it is bound to spill out!>>>

Another thing you've missed: I was never angry at him, never questioned him, never gave him a hard time about anything he did at work or at home until his behavior with his girlfriends got so blantant and disrespectful of me that even I couldn't take it any longer.

I was not always Psycho_B*tch. For a long time, I was Door_Mat.

<<<The anger you express is not conducive to reconciliation, and in fact, if you expose your WS to it, you will likely drive him even further away.>>>

Well, being nice and reasonable and *asking* him to stop doing these things got me nowhere. He thought it was just great that Wifey was a little jealous and went right on full-speed-ahead with his harmless fun. Thinking that I might not like it just made it that much better, because then I'd have to work even harder to keep him, nudge nudge wink wink!

I did not start out being angry. I only went there when it was either that or walk out the door.

<<<You say that you have done the ENQs. Are you certain your spouse is being honest with you? Or, is he perhaps afraid to be honest with you? Have you set a pattern of LBing when he tried to be honest with you so that now, he WONT be?>>>

He was quite honest about the EN questions, and so was I. But he wasn't honest for one second about his girlfriends or the strippers when I tried to be reasonable. I managed to drag some things out of him once I exploded. Again, it was either that or the door.

<<<Did you gain that "apt" nickname because you behave in such a way that he now believes you will explode in anger if he IS honest with you?>>>

No, dear -- he doesn't call me that. That is my nickname for what I have become after living with years of lies and more lies. And no, I do not explode when he does manage to throw me a crumb of honesty -- but I sure as hell do when he goes on hiding stuff and playing that damnable Word Game and treating me like I'm stupid.

Again: being nice and polite and reasonable got me NOWHERE.

<<<You say that he took previous conversations with you as criticism. Does he perhaps feel most of your conversations are critical of him?>>>

Only the recent ones where he's feeding me bullsh*t about his female co-workers. Other than that, no.

<<<If this has become a pattern for you, can you two openly discuss it and brainstorm for ways to break the habit? >>>

Yeah, we've done that. He could stop lying to me and hiding things from me, and he could answer my questions honestly and openly. It's real simple.

<<<You said your WS had an EN for a "trashy skirted bimbo....who stroked his ego." Try to be radically honest here: is she REALLY trashy or is that your anger? If she IS really trashy, is that what your WS finds attractive?>>>

Yes. She really is trashy.

Honey, my husband finds any female attractive who pays attention to him -- me or any other woman.

I am only one person. I cannot and will not compete with every other woman in the world. That is a massive exercise in futility.

There is not enough admiration, not enough attention, not enough sex in the world to satisfy a man who is determined to help himself to what any other female is offering.

<<<If so, do you meet his need for an attractive spouse?>>>

I don't know. You'd have to ask him. He often tells me he thinks I am beautiful, and seems to mean it.

<<<How did you dress during your courtship days? Do you dress now to please him? If not, are you willing to accommodate him?>>>

Please see above. I did not dress like trash, thank you very much.

<<<With respect to his ego....why did he need someone else to stroke it?>>>

Again, see above. He "needed" someone else to stroke it because that's fun -- not because I wouldn't, which is what you are clearly trying to say. He made very sure I was not around when this was happening. He had me at home and the bimboes at work, and that's the way he wanted it. He was a very happy guy until I finally had enough of it.

<<<Does he reveal a high need for admiration on the ENQs? Were you meeting that need? I don't mean the way YOU think it should be met: were you meeting his EN for admiration the way HE NEEDS FOR THAT NEED TO BE MET? You said his female co workers "sucked up" to him, "drooled" over him, etc. Were you doing any of that for him at home at the time the A started?>>>

Never. I never gave him any attention at all. No sex either. I weigh 400 pounds and I only own two sets of clothes that I bought at Wal-Mart. Yeah, this is all my fault.

<<<You mention that you wrote out four pages of questions for your WS.>>>

Nope -- it's up to seven pages now!

<<<How many of them were of the "how could you do this, you SOB" sort and how many of them were "what were you feeling that caused you to X" type of question?>>>

No, more like, "I want to know what you said to Thing-1 to let her know you did not want to speak to her anymore."

"I want to know what gifts were exchanged between you and Thing-2."

"I want to know whether Thing-1 is aware of how upset I am about your behavior with her."

All the stuff that I am still in the dark about and that simply does not add up, not to this day.

<<<You indicate that he can "do no wrong" in the eyes of his employer, and that you were unhappy in your job with the same company about the time the A started. Could it be that your job dissatisfaction caused a bit of envy in you, and so you started to find a LOT "wrong" with your H, back when he started the A?>>>

Lemme think -- gee, that's a tough one -- uh, that would be "no."

<<<You say that you have two kids, and that at the time of the A you had one in high school and one just out of diapers. Did this impact your weight, grooming, appearance? Was there time for sex?>>>

Again, see above . . .

<<<Did you spend the recommended minimum of 15 hours of UNDIVIDED attention with your H every week?>>

I would have liked to, but he was working late almost every night. 10, 12, sometimes 14-hour days. I never complained because I didn't want to give him a hard time about it. I only found out much later that he was always running so late due to the "counseling" and "mentoring" sessions he was holding with select female employees, and the "extensions of the work day -- " his name for a private off-site lunch -- with his trashy mini-skirted co-manager.

So, what were you saying about "undivided attention?"

<<< Did your H come home to selfish demands for domestic help, or did chores get negotiated out without your "takers" getting involved? Did any angry outbursts occur?>>>

Sorry -- there were no selfish demands or angry outbursts, not until I found out that he didn't consider it to be a lie if he "just didn't tell me" about something.

<<<Your comments regarding the "little people," "serfs" and the "king" sound like class envy. Did it sound that way to your H, I wonder?>>>

Of course they did. Why do you think I used the metaphor?

<<<You say co workers flirted with him at the office...did you flirt with him during your 15 hours of undivided attention?>>>

Well, I sure wasn't allowed to flirt with him on company premises, so yes, it did happen at home. Until I found out what was going on, and yeah, I must be a real cold-hearted b*tch because after that I just didn't feel much like flirting with him.

<<<I know that you need to talk about it with your WS, but it seems from your posts that you use these conversations to punish him.>>>

No, dear -- I am trying to find out what was really going on in my life, because so much of it, I know now, is not what I thought it was.

<<<I would think that this is what he means when he tells you that you make him into the [censored].>>>

Sorry -- his lieing and cheating made him into an @sshole. I had nothing to do with it.

<<<He knows he did a bad thing - but at some level he also knows that you were not meeting some of his needs - that is what led him astray.>>>

Boy, he would LOVE to talk to you. Then it could me all MY fault instead of his!

<<<From your posts, you don't seem ready to accept that you had ANY part in creating the situation.>>>

That's because I didn't, not beyond what I wrote in my earlier post. So sorry to disappoint you. He told me he loved me, everything was great, we had a great life together, and he was very, very careful the whole time to keep me from finding out about his little side dishes.

So, by your logic, it's perfectly ok for *me* to cheat and have a little fun, because he spent years cutting me out of his work life and spending the time and energy and affection that should have gone to me on other women. Right?

<<<A cornered animal doens't respond well to being poked with a stick - it defends itself. That is what your WS is doing: defending himself against what he views as your attack.>>>

Nope -- that's what I'M doing. I was attacked with cheating and lies and trashy little bimboes that came over for parties in MY OWN HOUSE, without my knowing what was really up at work.

<<<If what you have been doing is not getting your need to talk about it met, TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT! Try not poking him with that stick for a while! Try to approach him so that he sees that you DO accept SOME responsibility for what has occurred. See if this changes his response to you.>>>

Tried that. He just thinks it means everything is fine and we can move on and forget anything ever happened -- never mind my eight pages of questions and counting.

<<<Remember that honesty, wrapped in an LB -- like an angry outburst or selfish demand --doesn't fill ANY EN - it only empties your account.>>>

Too late. He emptied my account long ago with lieing and cheating and more lieing and cheating even after he knew how I felt about it.

<<<Do you think any of his "air-headed yes girls" have a nickname like yours?>>>

Oh, I have no doubt they don't. I can't imagine what their nicknames were/are. In fact, I think I'll go add that to the question list right now.

Thanks for reminding me.

Psycho_B***h
(my name for me, not his name for me)

Psycho-B,
YOU GO GIRL! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I didn't realize that you are perfect and that your WS is the one with all the faults. My mistake!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Good luck!

Mrs. Jpw,
I respectfully ask you if you think that your comment offers support or help to someone who is in pain because of infidelity. This is a place for people to offer support and advice and sometimes just VENT! It is much better to come here and vent in obscurity and helps many of us tremendously. People are here to work on their relationships, but most of all support each other.

If someone posts a topic that you feel you must respond to in sarcasm then I really think that you should consider passing on that one. Let's remember why we are here, we really don't need to argue with each other. Peace to you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ July 22, 2002, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: Ladysing58 ]</small>