Just wondering if any of you are experiencing what I am. Maybe I should do a poll, but I prefer to hear your comments.

Once I believed in marriage, the sanctity of it, the exclusiveness of it. No more. And unless I decide to enter a new marriage (which is highly unlikely) I am not in a marriage that is exclusive, etc. (as are most of you or you wouldn't be here). Do you struggle with issues about faithfulness? I want to be faithful, I pray to be faithful and I think I'll always be faithful, but it's like this - now that my H has allowed unfaithfulness into our marriage, isn't he permitting me the same option? Whereas before I had numerous reasons to be faithful, now I only have the "right vs. wrong" reason to be faithful. (and no I'm not looking to be unfaithful but if any of you read my most recent topic post, you'll know I've been accused <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

And I also wonder just how many people ARE being unfaithful. People I've looked up to for years, my role models, etc. If you're here, you've probably discovered the unfaithfulness in your relationship, and there are multitudes of people out there who have not discovered it. Believe me, this site has a wealth of information to help you keep your S faithful and yourself faithful. I've done research on how the OPs works, and 100% of WS's are unhappy in their marriage. (duh!) Keeping them happy is our job, and keeping us happy is their job. This web site gives us a road map. USE IT!!

Now, any comments on how you perceive relationships/marriage now??

<small>[ July 27, 2002, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: jamup ]</small>

Jamup,

I know where you are coming from, and I not only feel what you are saying, but I am also keeping my eye open to the oposite sex now. I guess I am hoping that a "better deal" comes along.

I must admit, there are reasons why I feel this way. I do believe, if I take away the reasons why I feel this way, I will no longer feel this way. My reasons are simply this:

1) I want to get even
2) I want to be loved
3) I want to be the sole person in the M
4) I feel like I have been given a "get out of jail free" card

All of these things are related to LOVE. If you have a full love bank do you think you would feel this way. It is only natural to have a wandering eye now. Hold out though, the grass is not greener on the other side. The A path is a mighty painful path even for the WS's.

I was very naive when I got married (aren't we all???). I am more realistic about relationships now. I know what the 'for better and for worse' and 'in sickness and in health' part of my vows actually mean. I believe lasting relationships are very hard work. I believe we all make mistakes in our life...so, some of our expectations of people are bound to 'blow up in our faces'. I believe it's impossible for one partner to make a marriage work, it really does take two. I believe that most, if not all, married persons will find someone else attractive/appealing during their married lives; it's how you act when this happens that makes the difference. Finally, I really understand the importance of making yourself happy and not expecting that another person is responsible for your happiness.

Have my experiences made me cynical about relationships?

Yes, I was cynical ... for awhile. A little better than a year.

Eventually, I recognized my cynicism for what it was ... a defense mechanism ... a shield against further hurt.

What I later realized was this, my cynicism worked against fully developing intimacy in my recovering marriage. My cynicism was counter productive to my goal of rebuilding my marriage.

Cynicism made me unloveable to myself. I do not care to spend lots of time with cynical people, even if it's MYSELF ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

There comes a time in recovery, where the choice is to let go of cynicism in order to contribute to the marriage intimacy as a loving adult.

One's own integrity is challenged when asked to let go of hurt and to allow ourselves to fully commit to love again. This is a very spiritual dilemma, in my opinion.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is a very spiritual dilemma, in my opinion. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I must agree totally Pepperband. In a way, my spouse's actions have made me have to seek new reasons to remain faithful. Reasons that come from heaven. My earthly reasons are basically shot. Now he is trying hard to make up for things, but I suppose this is another step on the road to recovery. I must cross this bridge successfully, and then move on to the next one.

It's not that I'm looking to be unfaithful - don't get me wrong. It's just that unfaithfulness is now an unwelcome part of my life, and I must face it for what it really is - and ugly reality. I've had to grow up very fast overnight - d-day.

What I once thought was a near perfect world for me, isn't so perfect anymore. And I know that me entering an A is not a way to solve anything, which is why I'm not going to do it. But whereas before I wouldn't enter into an A because my H loved me, my H trusted me, my H and I believed in exclusive marital relations, etc. Now those reasons are gone. Instead my reason is: It won't solve anything, and It's wrong. Not nearly the type of motivation I had prior to his A.

Jamup ... I understand what you said. "It's wrong." ... this is a very good reason not to be unfaithful !

Our integrity is the infrastructure to rebuilding.... with or without our partner.

An attitude of optimism and gratitude are required ... hence "faith" and "spirituality" are key ... Not necessarily trust in our partner's ability to remain faithful, but faith in the eventual goodness of ourselves and our trust in ourselves to reach deep inside and become our better selves.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ July 29, 2002, 09:05 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Keeping them happy is our job, and keeping us happy is their job.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't see it this way. I think it's our job to keep ourselves happy first. To have lives and to continue living them and growing our own lives. If we're not happy with ourselves, then how can we be happy in any R? Even a friendship.

I don't mean that we have no responsibility to meet our S's needs or wants, but we can't do it willingly or without resentment if we're not happy with ourselves. Sounds contradictory, I know. This is just my theory here.

But, slowly working on MYSELF to do a few things that make me feel better and more positive about myself. Took a long time off of work to relax, hang out with kids, that kind of stuff. Don't have a lot of money right now, but remember to treat myself to lunch with friends and just laugh. Reading a lot. Writing a lot. Trying a few new things, too. Not so interested in working on the house (yuck... H seems to make me want to do that)... but maybe that'll come in time too. I love this house, but I'm mechanically inept. I've noticed one thing, that if I'm at least at peace with myself around H when I do come in contact with him, he's at least more relaxed and does communicate some.

As for the faithfulness... hopefully, that'll come back. I'm trying to take the lead here with H in a way that isn't obvious or hit him over the head with a 2X4 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . Just so he sees I can adapt and change. Don't know if he'll come back, don't know if we'll divorce. I'm just trying to stablize this crazy situation here by making some peace with myself and seeing if he'll start poking his head out of the cave a bit more and seeing that life here ain't all so bad and maybe better than his cave and skank <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . I noticed things were always better between us when I was serene and more happy go lucky. I certainly wasn't that way when I learned about his A and the boocoo problems that happened after our separation. Hopefully I haven't learned that lesson too late...

Now tune in tomorrow to another station and another time... my attitude may be back in the dumpster and I may be wanting to hit H upside the head with the 2X4 called divorce papers because a small positive step I noticed today turned into a huge negative one... It's hard to keep the momentum going when the positives are so small.

<small>[ July 29, 2002, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: bluekeys ]</small>

bluekeys, maybe your attitude about filling your needs first is based on what part of recovery you are in. My H is doing everything he can to recover our marriage (with the normal dose of problems that normal marriages have), and I'm doing my best to do the same. This means I must put his needs above mine. And Vice Versa. And no, I don't demand that he does this, it just kind of comes natural to him since I'm the one doing things for him first.

If we were headed to divorce court or he was continuing the A, then I would be working more on making myself happy. But for a marriage to thrive and survive, you must be selfless instead of selfish.

<small>[ July 30, 2002, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: jamup ]</small>

Jamup,

You're probably right. I have NO clue whether or not my H's A is still going on... so I'm assuming it is (but hoping not). He and I are really "dark" on each other--little or no communication or seeing each other lately, even though there was a small but hopeful spark yesterday. (He dropped by the house to show off a new car yesterday and we literally were nice to each other.) There is a calm here, but it was also precipitated by a vicious argument about divorce.

So because I'm in limbo, I guess hanging low and just doing what I need for myself and working on myself is what seems to be clicking for me right now. But, in general, I would still support and maintain the idea though that you need to be happy first with yourself before you can contribute positively to any relationship.

So, that's probably why I'm where I'm at. Still hard though. I'm not cynical about relationships in general, though. I don't think I was much to start... perhaps for a week or two. But, I think this experience will make me think not twice but maybe a million times before getting seriously involved with someone (marriage or commitment) if we divorce.

<small>[ July 30, 2002, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: bluekeys ]</small>

I put my M above my needs for 7 years. I gave her all I had. Even after D-day for 4 months. Where did that get me? I am completely burned out and could care less about meeting WW needs.

I understand what is said here about meeting EN's, but it should not get in the way of retaining yourself and your identity. I do not know who I am anymore or what I like. I gave everything that made me -- me. Now, she expects so much out of me, I can't give it to her anymore. It is amazing how little she was willing to settle for from OM.

Chameleon...

That's the trick... that balance thing. My end was probably the opposite. I really got into my career and education big time as my kids grew and become more independent. I think H probably felt as if he were neglected. He never came straight out and said that, but looking back... I see the withdrawal and resentment from him due to that. And now after all the stressful events that have happened, I'm getting a case of the guilt trips too. I somehow think he felt unappreciated for who he was as a person.

But, I do still agree with the idea that you have to be happy as a person first to make any R work well and thrive. I think that's a factor for both of us right now... not sure if either of us are happy with who we are for different reasons.

I'm happy with who I am as a writer, mom, student... not so happy with myself as a wife/lover/friend. And not sure how to overcome that with H right now--very hard when there's so much resentment between us.

Hope you're making yourself happy at least... growing, learning, whatnot. I'll start to do that, and then I stall out. I'm learning to adapt here and learn about myself but it seems to be a really difficult process.

I agree about what they're willing to settle for with OP. The OW my H got involved with just seems so out there... just in it for fun and good times, little responsibility or commitment reflected in her life in someways. I too am burned out. Not really cynical, but plain burned out by this situation. Not sure if I wanna give up but wonder if this man I married has really changed permanently for the worse and whether down inside he's still the intelligent, kind, and caring person he once was. I got a good case of the guilties in some respects for bringing out and encouraging the worst in him throughout this too.

Even if you divorce, that person is in your life forever. There are family connections, financial ties, and other things that will keep you connected somehow. So at minimum, I guess I have to figure out a way to keep those types of interactions positive--and it is so easy to use money, kids, joint responsibilities as weapons <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> or use them to build walls between you. ("What? You FORGOT to pay utility bill? Look at what happened because of THAT, you jerkie...") It's hard in these instances to separate the situation from the person and just deal with the problem and work with it. ("What? Me find a way to get the lights turned back on? It's WAS YOUR fault, jerkie...")

I say this because many times we become resentful of a person simply because we do not understand everything that's happened or what's going on in their heads. It's too easy to take somethings personally (at least for me) and deal with a problem rather than the person.

Ok, I'm done whining and venting <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But, in general, I would still support and maintain the idea though that you need to be happy first with yourself before you can contribute positively to any relationship.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you are speaking of a good self-esteem here for both partners, I agree. But if you are talking about pursuing your individual goals above family goals or above your partner's goals, then look out. It will be just like you said, your partner will feel unwanted, unneeded, uncared for etc. And yes, people put up with this all of the time and don't run out and have As. However, in my case, my H had the A. And I WAS trying to be superwoman for my family. But guess who I put on the back burner, my H. I even made the comment to friends that I had to make money to pay bills, do things for my family, do things for my kids, and that my H would just have to take care of himself for a while until I could get things settled down and get back to him.

Well, he took care of himself all right. He was needing affection, he got it (OW), he was needing attention, he got it (OW), he was needing conversation, he got it (OW). Every thing he was needing from me and not getting, he got from OW. (Consequently this is one reason I believe him when he says he didn't have sex with the OW. He was still getting sex from me although it wasn't all that hot and passionate, his physical needs WERE being met). Were his actions that of a good spouse? NO, of course not. But through this, he's seen that he needs to help me with this load of family/financial etc burdens that I'm trying to bear.

He's helping me with my needs now, and that frees me up to help him with his.

I think you have to agree with the MB's basic principle of fulfilling emotional needs!

Jamup... Yes. You and I seem to be on the same page here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But if you are talking about pursuing your individual goals above family goals or above your partner's goals, then look out. It will be just like you said, your partner will feel unwanted, unneeded, uncared for etc. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is so true. Goes back to that balance thing. Don't think you can put partner and family goals ahead of yours 100% of the time, but they certainly have to be top priority. And good communication and negotiation skills are a must.

As for superwoman... oh yes I was there big time. Constantly. Working. STudying. Volunteering for the music parents organization. Lots of the things I did around the house were things that I knew I could do or liked to do. (I hate to cook... so H ended up taking it over and then resenting it, even though he's an EXCELLENT cook. I often assumed, wrongly, that it was because HE wanted to.) There were times I'd stay up until 5a.m. doing laundry (for some reason, fluff and fold when I'm in the mood is something I find relaxing... odd I know...) And for some odd rason, if H ever communicated any needs for sex or affection... I never heard 'em... hmmm I wonder why <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> But, it was funny... our sex life was ramping up like all get out until OW showed up <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

But, yes, I do agree with the basic principle. Now... to move this situation I'm in forward... I don't know where we stand... big blow up again yesterday and I do have to update that thread. But I want a bit of perspective first before doing it. Maybe over the weekend. Have no clue where we're at right now, and I'm just hoping that this situation can be stablized now... no more downward spirals. But sum of it is that despite the outcome here, I don't think I'm cynical in general towards marriage or relationships.