Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch PhD might be a good reference for you.

Here's some random quotes from the book:

"Differentiation involves the ability to maintain who you are while you're close to people important to you."

"When we have little differentation, our identity is constructed out of what's called a reflected sense of self."

"People who's identity is primarily dependent upon their relationship don't facilitate the development of those they love. They lose their identity when others change."

"Many people assume we are our feelings. It sounds validating and accepting of feelings, but it creates other problems: if you identify with your feelings -- that is, you get your identity from your feelings -- then you can't afford to have them change. You'll feel like you don't know who you are. When you have a stable sense of self, your feelings can come and go like the weather."

You are using your wife to create an identity for you .... and when you do not like the "YOU" she reflects ... it is your W's "fault".

YOUR sense of who you are is YOUR responsibility.

Now tell me something you love about yourself .... not what others love about you.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ August 09, 2002, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

We were writing at the same time!

I believe you ARE compassionate and caring! I love that about MYSELF too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

P <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Pepper -

Do you see the bullet hole right between my eyes? Damn you're good - sure you're not a counselor in waiting?

okay....

I'll try again....

One thing I love about myself is:

-this is sad - everything I think of is something I know others love about me - I can't think of something that is just something about me that I haven't emphasized or squashed because it might end up causing be to be rejected -

I'm in need of some serious help

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

"The PROBLEM is that I am frustrated with myself for not being able to accept a perfectly good woman."

This is exactly correct !!!!

And the reason you cannot accept this perfectly good woman is because you don't like the YOU-IDENTITY reflected by her. But, guess what .... the YOU-IDENTITY reflected is not the "real you". The YOU-IDENTITY reflected by your lover was not the "real you" either ! The YOU-IDENTITY reflected by your mother was not the "real you" either !!!!

You are unhappy because you've lost yourself .... and you went looking for yourself vicariously in the eyes of an affair partner ..... and she made you "FEEL GOOD" about yourself ... and since you do not yet realize you can feel good about yourself all by yourself .... you "fell in love". You fell in love with who you were when you were with her. You fell in love with the feeling you got when you were with her. If the feelings change (and, they always do) ... then you are lost again!

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Oh Pepper,

you are so right - so how do I find myself? what do I do?

When I read that last post - I started to cry like a little baby -

I think I lost myself long ago - even before my M got rocky, before I even got married - way back in my childhood somewhere.

Oh God, what do I do now? Where do I begin to look for ME?

<small>[ August 09, 2002, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: hopelessromantic ]</small>

"Oh God what do I do now?"

Well ... crying seems OK for now. It seems authentic!

After a cry, you might take a walk, you might listen to music, you might call your best friend .... After a cry we should treat ourselves with tenderness.

I give you permission to love yourself and to treat yourself with tenderness.

Go do that.

((HUGS))

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Ok - I'll go do that now.

Thank you Pepperband - you have helped like no one else ever has -

The tears were from the sudden realization I had from reading your post - it was a truth I have never recognized about myself - very cathartic moment.

Thank you.

HR are you OK? I hope you are treating you with kindness?

What was you family life like when you were growing up? Were you a happy kid?

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Pepper

My life as a kid? Well, I had a mom & dad who fought a lot - less than some, more than others, but too much for me and my younger sister. It was scary - they would yell and be mean and degrading to each other - with eventually one of them leaving for a day or 2 - at one point my dad was asked to leave for a couple of months right before my HS graduation - oddly enough, I don't remember it in detail - just remember wanting to move out and go to college ASAP - which I did.

My mom tells me she worried about me when I was a toddler, and young child - often remarking that I never had fun, never seemed happy - she worried that I was too introspective and even pessimistic - traits I carry with me today.

I am very introspective - analyzing things to death - I think I escape into my mind when the emotional world gets too tough - I am a very intelligent person - very good at analyzing and thinking - as a kid it was the basis of my being valued - I was the brainy kid - straight A's - winning spelling bees - advanced beyond my grade levels in school - my mom purposely didn't let me skip grades - she wanted me to have a normal childhood - she didn't want me to be a gifted-child-freak - I could have been one of those kids who went to Harvard at age 12, if my parents allowed and supported it - but they wanted me to be "normal"

I was always last in the things that matter to young boys: sports (everyone of them), physical abilities, physcial attractiveness and success with girls. I had 2 gf's in HS, started dating my W my first yr of college - though I was "in love" with many other girls in HS - actually wanted to be in love as early as 3rd grade - unusual for boys. For some reason, I crave that "in love" feeling, loving someone and being loved by them. Maybe it's a drug to me - maybe it alleviates the pain of my parents angry fights from my childhood.

Did I leave anything out?

Actually ... you seem pretty "normal" ! Normal being a relative term, of course..... LOL!

What brings you joy in your life?

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

HR Have been reading this thread and wanted to say just a few of things.

Just as you are afraid of trying with your W because she may reject your efforts...imagine how she feels. Try to put yourself in her place before and after the A. She was trying to make another individual happy about themselves (impossible to do), I suspect after some time she could no longer be bothered to try. Fast forward...when you had your A, you rejected her, in essence told her she wasn't worthwhile. I strongly suspect at this point she is very frightened; doesn't want to be vulnerable and risk such huge amounts of pain again.

My suggestion. Make yourself happy, neither your W or the OW can do that for you. Eventually, you would have found fault with the OW too. Once you are happy then share it with your W! Happiness is something we can share with others, not something that others can give us. I also sense some self-esteem and self-confidence issues. PB is so right...find things to like/love about yourself. They are there, you've just forgotten how to look for them. When you depend on others to find your good qualities, you get a little 'rusty' at finding them yourself. Once you see you are a good person with great qualities it won't matter what others say and think. You will believe deep down that you are worthy.

Finally, (yes, I'll shut-up soon <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ), recovery from an A takes a very, very long time. Think in terms of years. If once you've fixed yourself and really tried everything you could to make your marriage work and things are still bad then D is an option. My feeling is you still have some work ahead of you before you can call it quits.

hopelessromantic-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know for certain that I derive WAY too much self worth and esteem from whether or not I am loved by a woman whom I love or respect. I know that I measure whether I am loveable by how much I am loved by others.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Change the word woman to man and this describes me to a T. I haven't figured out how to fix it either. I think you and I are very similar personalities, we had very similar childhoods. I lost my virginity during my early teens and allowed boyfriends to be more important than school. I wonder what the connection is between this and parental strife?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "Differentiation involves the ability to maintain who you are while you're close to people important to you."

"When we have little differentation, our identity is constructed out of what's called a reflected sense of self."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow. Pepper, as usual, you have hit the nail right on the head. I am going to do some research on this subject and I will share what I come up with.

hr-

Check out this website.

Maybe it can help both of us.

Take care,
JG

mgm-

You are correct to have me look at things from her persepective - and you are right, I agree that she has little motivation and I wouldn't blame her if she just ditched me because of the A - I can understand if she is never able to trust me or be open to me ever again - I blew that one.

On the other hand, just as she has every right and reason to not trust me and be open with me after the A - she has no reason to have acted that way before - and it was her behavior before that I based my decision on that she didn't want me, didn't want to be open and have the kind of relationship I was wanting to have.

Sorry Jelly and Pepper - I am at work - so can only check and respond from time to time - I'll check back later with answers to your question Pepper.

Thank you all for your help, support and interest.

Went through and re-read your posts. Is it possible your wife is clinically depressed and was before your A started? You may want to look into that further. If she is depressed there are many wonderful medications out there that ease the symptoms of depression. I'm not an expert, but the way you describe her behaviours would lead me to wonder about depression....

<small>[ August 12, 2002, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: mgm ]</small>

hopeless romantic,

I've been following your story and felt compelled to share something with you.

Just as it takes two for a M to be successful, it also takes two for it to go bad. I keep reading that your W had no reason to behave in a destructive way before the A... how can you be 100% sure about that? One of the most difficult things I had to accept about our recovery was that I was just as responsible for the state of my M as he was. Me being the BS does not make me an innocent party to the decline of the emotional connection, communication, and love between us. Is it possible that your W may have had some issues with you before the A that were never discussed? Is it possible that you were so hurt and discouraged by her behaviour that you can't see how you might have contributed to it? I belive that M is the the most symbiotic relationship there is. (YOU REALLY DO GET WHAT YOU GIVE.)

I think it was Pepperband that suggested you begin to concentrate more on your personal growth and improvement instead of continuing to psychoanalyze your W's behavior. Great advice! Let's face reality... even if things don't work out between you and your W, YOU have to live with YOU for the rest of your life. Please don't misunderstand me...it's not my intention to sound cruel or point ANY fingers (I'm sure there's been enough of that in your life, recently). I'm simply stating that sometimes the most profound changes in our immediate environment happen because we've CHOSEN to make profound changes within ourselves.

You sound as though you are in a great deal of pain and have quite a bit of your own resentment about the state of your M. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Maybe it's that you must work through and FORGIVE your W for before you can see your own potential contribution to the state of your M before the A.

(and maybe I should take my own advice... thanks for sharing... your story has made me think about my own!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

mgm & Danni C

Thank you - yes, my W was and is depressed - taking Prozac - but only at a base level - our MC said it should be higher - my W doens't want to go to back to that MC - not for that reason, but I suspect it has something to do with it - she is taking the Prozac under direction of her Regular doctor - who is not following up with her progress with csling - and since she won't agree on a cslr for her or us - well - I just am tired of pushing her to want this marriage - I can't be her parent anymore - I want to be married to someone who will behave like an adult - if I push her on this - she'll get angry and resentful - like a child will do - and blame me or my job or the A for her state of mind - forget that she has been depressed in my opinion and in our former cslrs opinion long before the A happened - any time I approached my W and offered help, asked/demanded we co to csling, begged her to tell me what was wrong - she always said everything was okay - well - when things are okay, you don't have anxiety attacks that have you flag down an ambulance because you are passing out at the wheel of the car with the kids in it - but any time I point out these things I see - she says they are my problem, my issues, that I see her as incompetent because I won't trust her to solve her own problems - which if I did, she would do NOTHING about them - I have years of proof of her living in denial to back me up.

OKAY Pepper, I know - this is all about what is wrong with my W and not at all about me.

I just don't know what to do when someone refuses to face reality, refuses or puts off going to csling to deal with it, and blames me for pointing out the problems and being so negative.

How long do I endure this? If I went with how I feel now, I would move out today, but then I am just being unforgiving and impatient - so how long is fair, how much effort is fair on my end without just letting her keep being stuck in this pattern?

Pepper - here it is the way you would want me to state it:

At what point am I allowing myself to be taken advantage of by a W who really refuses to work on our M - I don't deserve this. Sure you can blame her lack of initiative on the A - if so, I wish she would just tell me "I can't work this out, and I don't want to try" rather than playing these games with me and giving the appearance of trying - though she runs from every opportunity.

Sorry, for the rant - all you BS's out there - please read the whole thread before you jump down my throat with "You're the one who had the A, how dare you say you don't deserve to be treated this way - what about your W?" Please offer help and not anger - I'd appreaciate it. I know I hurt her immeasurabely - I'm trying now to rebuild and avoid the pitfalls we fell into before the A - my observation is that she won't address them and therefore we will fall in again - either another A or I'll just give up on the M.

I have my doubts that the dosage of your wife's meds are her only problem. To be more specific, I think she may be on the wrong med! There are others out there...sometimes what works for one doesn't always work for another. Paxil is a good one, it is an anti-depressent and anti-anxiety medication.

I'm going out on a limb here (and I'm sure I'll have some disagreeing with me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ) It may be time for some brutal honesty and ultimatums from you. Perhaps telling her that unless she talks to a doctor about her meds and gets IC you need a 'break' from the relationship. Plan A and B work for both BS and WS (mainly intended for use by BS). I really hate ultimatums because you must be prepared to carry through or it's an empty threat. It's also possible the reason she won't change is because she has no reason to change! People always stick with behaviours that reward them in some way. She is getting something out of her behaviour! If you carry out your ultimatum there can be NO running to the OW, you must be sure she understands it is the M and not an OP. If you can't do this for yourself, then do it for your kids; they need both of you to be healthy and strong, they need positive role models and life lessons.

I don't believe for a minute that it's solely up to you to repair the marriage after your A. I do believe that, at least temporarily, you will be doing the major share of the work. That being said it's time to stop complaining about her (as PB suggested) and start deciding what your priorities will be. Time to start taking some actions to change things. Be proactive instead of reactive!! First priority should be getting yourself on track. You need IC as much as she does. Second, start setting up what you need from your W (meds, IC etc.). Throughout all of this the needs of the kids MUST be looked after. This is a tall order, I know. Take it all one day at a time. Seriously, just try to get through each day. This won't be easy. The best description I've heard so far re: recovery from A, is that it is a roller coaster ride!

mgm-

you're probably right - she's either on the wrong meds or the wrong dosage - problem is she won't go in to get them adjusted - see, she is "ok" until I say she's not - she is very good at being an ostrich - stick her head in the sand and pretend everything is ok - when I say it isn't (I'm unhappy, disappointed, upset, sad, afraid, etc) then I am the bad guy, if I just kept my mouth shut, everything is fine - at least that's how she seems to react when I do point out anything that isn't working for me.

I have been in weekly IC for one year now - she stopped going 3 mos. ago, after cutting back to monthly, 6 mos. ago - remember though, I'm the one with the problem, not her (so she thinks). so it makes sense that she doens't "need" csling.

I guess a form of Plan A is what I need to do - it's hard to translate to the WS point of view, but I think I know what to do, so I will.

Yellow Rose is doing the same (WS doing plan A) but for more drastic reasons than I - there is abuse in her situation, mine is just non-participation by my W.

Anyway - thanks for the help and insight to you all.

oh yeah,

and don't worry mgm,if I do separate to "motivate" my W, the OW will not be a factor. Though I still have those feelings for her, she is 2000 miles away, and I don't know how to contact her - she contacted me on my business phone 3 weeks ago, and I don't suspect she'll do it again - at least for a long while... I think that since my NC letter, she was just dying to see if it was for real and wanted to hear it from me - in my own voice - I think she suspected my cslr was behind the letter - he wasn't, he was actually a bit surprised I did it considering he was still helping me get over my feelings for her - anyway, I think she got the message for real this time, so if she does call me - it will be a long time away, if ever. So the OW will not come into play if I separate....

HOWEVER, me being such a dreamy-eyed romantic / lover type - my main fear is that I will meet or find another OW - I know there are other women out there with whom I can relate on a more open basis - as opposed to my W's lack of openess and intimacy (before and after the A).

It was because of the lonliness in my marriage that I decided to look elsewhere to get my needs met, and I am afraid that by leaving I will be even more lonely and suseptible to making bad decisions.