The most amazing thing has happened. Let me tell you the story and you guys tell me.

OK, to set the stage; I left my home last week, moved into a extended stay nearby, and was preparing to go to full Plan B; delivering the letter, and going "dark". That was supposed to happen tomorrow, as originally planned. My wife had a session with Steve at 10AM, and I miraculously got another session at 1PM (a cancellation).
Naturally, I was very interested in hearing what my W had said to Steve, after my being out of the house for nearly a week, and to iron out the details of going to Plan B with Steve. In fact yesterday, the idea of NOT going Dark and delivering the letter was circulated and debated, and I had concluded that I'd stick to the plan, as my W's actions were positive, but not a breakthrough worth a change in plans.

Steve comes on and he's baiting me! Really! "SC, are you OK?" "I mean REALLY OK?" "Are you sure?" "Tell me how you're doing..." So I say "Steve, stop that! What did W say!?!?!?!?!?!" so he goes on and
asks me to bring him up to speed on what happened since last week's call. So I tell him about my conversation with W, letting her know I'm leaving because I can't stand the pain of her divided love, and her reactions, and our other conversations, and the outburst I had where I spilled all this stuff, and the calls and the e-cards and the kisses, and thanks and hugs, the BBQ, and all that stuff that had the forum up in arms about stopping Plan B. Then he says "well, she didn't tell me all of that. Do you think she knows why you left and what it will take for you to come back?" and I said "Well, she's heard it all before, she doesn't have it clear in black and white in front of her with a Plan B letter, but she knows. And I was very clear about why I left; the pain and removing myself from her triangle." Then he asks "well, what WOULD it take for you to go back home?"... I almost fell back with my chair!...so I think about it for a bit and said; "Well it would take a committment to end the R w/OM, and a way to demonstrate it, and disclosure that would show me goodwill, that she's giving up her hard-fought methods, assurances of no future contact, the desire to work on our M, and implementing an escalating number of the principles...I'd go home if I got something like that. What's going on? what did she say!?!?!?!"

He stops...just silence for an eternity...then says "Well, W has a whole series of issues, all of them related to this "independence" thing of hers, this "privacy" thing, and those are the things that are holding her back, those are the things that are preventing her from making progress, and from having success. She feels that if she gives those up, she's giving her individuality up, she's conceding her image as a human being. And I keep telling her that it is obvious that what she's done up to now does not work, that she should give my ideas a try." then stops again...and then goes on "But she's lonely. She misses you very much." DONG!!!! I said "You're kidding!" he says "No. She is very lonely and she probably did not think you'd really leave. Now she didn't come out and tell me this, she started beating around the bush and I eventually got it out of her. But she basically wanted to know what it would take for you to come back home..." at this point I'm breaking down...almost crying...thoughts rushing through my head, doubts, happiness, fears, hope, anger...I swear I don't know what else Steve said...then I heard him again "And I told her the MB Weekend in SF had been cancelled, and she asked when the next one was, and I told her in October, and she said, OK, good, by then we should be ready for that." So I'm not even believing this, I'm firing off questions to Steve: what does this mean, how did this come about, do you think it's sincere, what did you tell her, did this come from her or did you suggest it, what is she willing to do, what, how, where, who, and Steve's answering I don't know, perhaps, she will tell you, what do you think?, you'll have to decide for yourself, etc.

So then I said "So what did you tell her?" and he says "I told her that the only thing that will work now is Radical Honesty, and evidence. That if she keeps doing what she's been doing, she is destroying her M; and it's only because she wants to keep doing what doesn't work. And she's begun to understand that now." And I said, "So what is she going to do? What did she tell you?" And he said "I don't know. She said she was going to talk to you. She understands now that if she doesn't start giving up this individuality thing and starts acting like a team member, she's always going to fail. And she knows that it'll take Radical Honesty and Evidence. And she said she was going to talk to you. You are going to have to decide if it is enough, and if it is sincere, and if you can believe her." and I said "Steve, what's different between what she said she'd do today and what she agreed she'd do last week? (Re-do Steve's 3-Steps, this time not omitting things). He said "I don't know, but I do know that she now is beginning to understand that what she's been doing is leading her to failure, not only in your M, but in her life. I think she is understanding that now."

Naturally, I am in total shock. I can't believe this, it doesn't seem real.

Then Steve goes on "She has very serious doubts as to your ability to re-build love and care in your M. She asks "What about me? What do I get?" and I told her that the success of that is ALSO dependent on her working as a team, and not as an individual. The same thing applies; what you've been doing does not work. You know that. That is confirmed now. You have to try something else, why not try the team approach, what I'm suggesting? I know this works, it's worked for a lot of other people. And she seems willing to do it, but you have to reinforce and be encouraging about your belief in the future."

And them we went into a bunch of logistics stuff, sessions, Plan B on hold, how I should act during separation, (Interesting; no Plan A behavior; courteous but distant, no touching, kissing, nothing like that, it's sending mixed signals; I've left because I'm in pain when I'm with you, yet I kiss you when I see you)
DO NOT under ANY circumstances use this conversation to try to EDUCATE her...listen to her, see what she gets and what she doesn't get, see if she'll offer things like a NC letter, I didn't ask her for that, but we've talked about it...see what she does. Just reinforce your belief in the future together, in your ability to recreate a fulfilling M for both of you.

In essence, this is a major surprise. For Steve AND for me. I never imagined she'd start sending peace offerings this quick, I expected a bigger fight, a longer fight, a LOT more stubborn determination not to cave, etc. etc. But with the signals she's sent, and some other stuff my D told me today (Like mom has been VERY nice to them (I expected her wrath to come down on them!), and that mom has seen many, many things that need doing which you did and now she can't do and doesn't know how to do...halleluya!

I'm very happy, I've come back to life, I think, but I am trying to be very very cautious and suspicious of anything until I see concrete actions. This could turn out to be another ploy to keep things going, to stall some more, buy some more time...

So that's the gist of it. I'm exhausted. What is certain is this; what I (and others) considered the nay-sayers yesterday, were partially correct; she DID send some strong signals that were unexpected, and they DID lead to what looks like a major peace offering today. And since that is the case, Plan B letter and Going Dark are currently on hold, until after she talks to me...we'll see what she says.

So; help me out here. What should I hold out for, what is negotiable, what can I accept a committment to (as opposed to doing it now), what now? What needs to happen here for me to come home? I have my ideas...what do you all think?

OK, I need ideas for the sub-title to this thread..."Affairs that don't end...Plan B? Maybe Not...", "...Maybe they DO end!", ok, you get the idea! I'm all out of steam here...back later with more, I'm sure.

<small>[ August 14, 2002, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Spacecase,

You are already in a good hand (SH) ... make sure you sit down and be RH to yourself ... what will ammend you to be able to put your self back. You have already a good list ...
"Well it would take a committment to end the R w/OM, and a way to demonstrate it, and disclosure that would show me goodwill, that she's giving up her hard-fought methods, assurances of no future contact, the desire to work on our M, and implementing an escalating number of the principles...I'd go home if I got something like that. ....

Sit back and wait for her call ... tell her exactly that and work out on the detail .... before you come home. Hang tight ... until she calls and talks RH to you ... keep your hope down. You might even talk to her in person ... watch her body language and so on. Take the peace offering and good luck.

-RH-

Remember Spacey ... she is learning to walk here .... and she has independence issues ... so you're teaching her how to walk, showing her how to walk, drawing illustrations on how to walk, are all considered hostile moves from her POV.

SHUT UP AND RELAX! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ... These two things are difficult for YOU to do simultaneously when dealing with the anxiety of waiting for your W to independently walk towards a new M with you... but, with practice ... you can soothe your anxiety without attempting to educate your W.

EDUCATE YOURSELF on ways to self-soothe your anxiety and your discomfort WITHOUT educating your W.

YOU 'da man!

~*~*~*

Yippee ...... she's lonely! A very real consequence ...... a necessary discomfort. Let her experience this moment fully. DO NOT SOOTHE HER .... soothe yourself.

This is soooooo cool! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Yeah!

What redhat and Pepperband said.

Hang in there. Be cool. Let her worry and chase you for a while.

ST

WOW!!!

That really is a surprise!

Take it slow...this is a really good start! I'm so cautiously happy for you!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Oh, and my vote for what to call the thread (in case your taking any)....How do you spell that sound that's made when you run your finger rapidly up and down over your lips? That'd be what I'd call it, LOL!!

<small>[ August 13, 2002, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: hope4future ]</small>

PS ....

Your anxiety pushes you to rush solutions ... don't listen to that anxiety.

Slow works better than fast with healing... and with sex too ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> (Had to throw that in ... I self-soothe with humor, in case you couldn't tell. LOL)

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

SC,

I have no idea what to tell her, since she really hasn't spoken to you. The independence thing is difficult, but if you do get into a discussion along those lines, I think it may help you to recall that you are very dependent on her, but that doesn't mean you cannot be independent. It is a choice just as moving away was, and plan B will be, and yes even divorce if it comes to that. You can exist independently from her because you are independent. You have choosen to depend on her, because it has brought you happiness and you hope it will again.

I know you cannot educate her, but most independent people function very well depending on others. It is the ones that really cannot be independent that often seem to have problems with this issue.

It will be an interesting next few days. I would not rush to go back, but I do think that having the OM out of the picture is really what needs to happen. She will have to come up with some ideas of how to do this. After all you do expect "independent" thinking on her part right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Isn't interesting how confused these thought patterns can get. You want her to think independently, ie to love you because she wants to, be your W because she wants to, yet her need to act independently complete confounds that very thing.

Man I am glad I don't do this stuff for a living aren't you SC? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I think on the whole this is very good news, but it would seem that you should expect some slow going. Yet, there could be some good surprises. Today hasn't been half bad has it SC?

God Bless,

JL

Wow! Lots of responses, thanks!!!

Redhat; Indeed, I will not rush home. This'll be like the baseball owners/players negotiations, I hope.

Pep; OK, Shut up and relax, Educate ME, and slow is better...even with sex. Gotcha! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Sad Tiger; Yes, I think I'll enjoy the chase...it's been SO long since ANYONE chased me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

H4F; Got it; Slow, slow, easy does it...Oh, and that sound you're thinking of cannot be written, but I think it resembles "DUH!" right?

JL; As usual, you're making me think, so I will. Get back to you on those!
And yes, I AM glad I don't do this for a living!
And NO! today has not been bad at all...in fact... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

No, not duh, that sound is more appropriate just before SMACK (hand hitting forehead)... I was thinking more like blblubbblbbblubbbllbbblll.

I'm not sure...it might have a silent ph in there somewhere.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Great responses here... not much to add. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'll ponder, sleep on it, see what develops on this thread, and come up with something intelligent for you tomorrow (that's not a promise! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )

Here's a high five for ya!!! But not too high!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spacecase:
<strong>

Steve comes on and he's baiting me! Really! "SC, are you OK?" "I mean REALLY OK?" "Are you sure?" </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Steve calls you Spacecase?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

This all sounds very promising. It seems like moving out is clearing her fog, which is great news, Space!

Spacecase,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">DO NOT under ANY circumstances use this conversation to try to EDUCATE her</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just reminding you... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I would let your wife lead the conversation, and reinforce the idea of working on this as a team, using the POJA and radical honesty. If she's not making the suggestions that you 'need' to consider moving back, see if she asks for your opinion. If she does, throw out one, and phrase it as "how would you feel about..."

I think you're in pretty good shape (but then, I always did). Don't be in a hurry---and remember to see this from her POV as well. I can see plenty of negotiation room on 'independence', if she's willing to put the time into the marriage.

spasecase
I just wanted to tell you, your post sounded so excited.. I decided to get my husband to call steve and see if we can work on some things.
I dont post much on gq but have been reading. I wish you luck.

<small>[ August 13, 2002, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: mom of five ]</small>

Spacecase,

I don't know if you have been following my post, but my WH seems to be coming out of the fog too, I would love to hear how this conversation goes with your wife!!

how about "Time to shake the screws out"
(ya know, turn them upside down, shake those screws out, install some magnets that just happen to come straight to you!)

<small>[ August 13, 2002, 08:51 PM: Message edited by: going_crazy ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong>Steve calls you Spacecase?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

This all sounds very promising. It seems like moving out is clearing her fog, which is great news, Space!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, no, he calls me by my name...I just changed it for the forum...but he DID ask what my screen name was on the forum; pretty early on when we started Cing.

It does sound promising, but I wonder if she's trying to blow some more smoke up my....

<small>[ August 13, 2002, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by K:
<strong>Spacecase,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">DO NOT under ANY circumstances use this conversation to try to EDUCATE her</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just reminding you... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. I know. Maybe I'll take a double-dose of Wellbutrin, AND have a beer before I go...I don't know, I'll do SOMETHING to shut myself up!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I would let your wife lead the conversation, and reinforce the idea of working on this as a team, using the POJA and radical honesty. If she's not making the suggestions that you 'need' to consider moving back, see if she asks for your opinion. If she does, throw out one, and phrase it as "how would you feel about..."</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is excellent! I'm adding it to my Cliff's Notes for the meeting....IF I get a heads up ahead of time! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I think you're in pretty good shape (but then, I always did). Don't be in a hurry---and remember to see this from her POV as well. I can see plenty of negotiation room on 'independence', if she's willing to put the time into the marriage. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's funny that you say that...you've always said that you thought I was in good shape. Never did inderstand why.

K, I don't get your meaning on the last part...room to negotiate on the "independence thing"? meaning...?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mom of five:
<strong>spasecase
I just wanted to tell you, your post sounded so excited.. I decided to get my husband to call steve and see if we can work on some things.
I dont post much on gq but have been reading. I wish you luck.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks MomOfFive.

I highly recommend Cing with Steve. It's not inexpensive, but one session with them (Steve or Jenn) is worth 3-4 of a regular IC...good luck!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by going_crazy:
<strong>Spacecase,

I don't know if you have been following my post, but my WH seems to be coming out of the fog too, I would love to hear how this conversation goes with your wife!!

how about "Time to shake the screws out"
(ya know, turn them upside down, shake those screws out, install some magnets that just happen to come straight to you!)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, GC, I DO follow your posts...haven't posted there, I don't think, but I have been reading them...quite a saga! And by the way, I think your hubby needs a knuckle to the frontal lobe! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> (If you live within 100 miles of Houston, I volunteer!)

Well, I DID try the shake the screws tactic, but Steve thought it was an LB to grab my W by the ankles, turn her upside-down and shake her...don't have any idea why!? I thought it was Tough Love! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ August 13, 2002, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Oh boy! I'm re-reading that first post of mine...what an awful desecration of the english language and form! (My Lit Prof would slap me! Bless her heart.) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I guess I was trying to make a brain-dump before forgetting everything... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I'll put you on the first plane here!!