My wife and I have been married for 5 years, we have 2 children. 1 month ago she told me she no longer loves me and that she needs time to figure things out. She is always working late and leaving on weekends to figure things out. But she always ends up at the same place out of town.The only way i can get of a hold of her is through her cell phone, which while she is gone is turned off. I confronted her about it, and she says its a girl friend from work. Well the kids tell me its a guy and then she confronts the kids and they change their story. There are many other signs. She has a new job (4 months now)and all new friends whom I have never met I blame myself, she says we never talk and I spend too much time on the computer and watching tv. She always nagged me but I just thought she was doing just that...nagging. Now that I know what caused the problem, I have sold my computer equipment and try to spend less time watching tv and more time with her ..But now she says its too late, and she wants a seperation. Everytime I think things are getting a little better she goes away on the weekend and comes home more distant and cold to me. She gets mad when I ask if there is another man in her life and gets mad if I get in her car...She won't let me touch her hug or kiss..She says it makes her angry that she cant give me what I want. and that she wants a seperation because she knows she killing me. With everything in my heart I want her to tell me whats going on, so we can work at fixing the problems. We have a meeting with a marriage counselor. but she does'nt think it will work. She is my whole life and I am willing to do anything to keep her. I think the affair is going on, but she would never tell me because she is already hurting me enough.I'm hoping it will all happen at the marriage counselor, i am hopefull..Any thoughts

need,

I am really sorry you have to be here, but you have found the best place possible in these circumstances to get support.

First off, your W is most certainly having an affair. And withholding that information is almost as cruel and manipulative as the affair itself. You are in the dark and she has all the facts. The problem is, you can't FORCE her to admit it and it sounds like she doesn't want to tell you because she doesn't want to be forced to deal with it. She wants to continue her behavior.

I would suggest reading everything on this website you can and IMMDIATELY initiating a good solid Plan A. In the meantime, it sounds like you have taken steps to get MC, which can be good or bad depending on the counselor. There are success stories here who have counseled with the Harleys so you might want to consider that. You just don't want to be stuck with a counselor who is not committed to rebuilding the marriage and there are many who are not.

In the meantime, just know that this is a place you can come to get support from people who have been right where you have been. Hang in there and keep posting.

Need,

Your story sounds very similar to mine. I spent a lot of time on the computer updating my travel website and WW complained. My WW has found fault with virtually everything I do for well over a year. WS went very cold with me at Easter. No touch, kiss etc. I asked to get back into her life and she told me it was too late. I asked if OP was involved and she denied it. I later found evidence of long phone calls to OP and again she denied it. She even denied an A when I came home early to find OP locked in house with WW.
It was only when I phoned OP's W that she admitted EA. She still denies PA although there is evidence of such but I have not taken steps to prove this - the EA is probably more destructive.
I suggest you do a little snooping but try not to LB.
Keep on with Plan A. I hope all goes well for you.

John

n4c,

It doesn't look good on the surface. Your W is separating herself from you both emotionally and physically. It's possible that she is getting those needs met by someone else. You won't know for sure until she either comes clean and tells you or you find out on your own.

As hard as it is not to know, I wouldn't suggest too much snooping. That's a major LB. The WS knows full well that what they are doing is wrong. They know they can't keep it under wraps forever. They want to come clean on their own.

Getting accused or being caught is like getting painted into a corner. They will most likely become very defensive and even more distant. They will be forced to lie because they are not ready to tell you and they will feel even more rotten about themselves. But here's the kicker....You will be to blame. Go figure.

Try to be patient and non-threatening. Let her know that you miss her. Present yourself in the best possible light that you can. i.e. (Plan A) Don't beg, plead, whine, argue, etc. Those are very unattractive qualities that will just push her further away. Show some genuine interest in her daily activities without prying as to who, what, where, when.

Here's a far fetched idea...ask her out. Women love to be courted. Marriage shouldn't put an end to that. And I don't mean bowling. Courting should be romantic and fun. It should be all about the two of you. Don't get bummed if she declines. It might be that someone else is meeting that need right now. Offer her a rain check. Always let her know that you miss her and wish for the two of you to be close again.

Baby steps and a lot of patience. Let her come to you. Don't attack. Good luck.

Tagging off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ October 02, 2002, 09:04 AM: Message edited by: ba109 ]</small>

I'd like to work on Plan A, but it seems that the wall she has built up to me is pretty high and very thick and everything I say cannot get throught the wall. Her emotions to me are anger at best. It's so fustrating. She comments that what I am trying to do is make her love me and she doesn't want that. I brought up that she has given me lots of reason to make her think she is seeing OM, and she got quite upset and said we need to call our lawyers now, and forget about MC. I managed to convince her to go again, but the lack of emotion for me is devistating. My children are seeing it. My daughter asked "Why are you being mean to Daddy", and that breaks my heart, and sends my W into a fury. I think the OM has children as well, the same as me (a B and G). I'm scared to death that OM is going live my dream and life that I had always wanted. I have no family within 4000 miles and I am closer to the W's parents than my one family member. If seperation happens, everything will be taken away. She wont admit the A, so what do I need to do. She is bright and resourcefull, and always uses her work phone, therefore no bills, I don't know any of her friends from work which includes the OM (I think). MC is in a couple of days, I hope she is good..She sounded good on the phone when she told me her approach. Again I think the only way to fix the issues is to find out about the A...Some ideas to do until then ?..She wants me away this weekend, so she can be with the kids. Don't know what to do...

n4c

you wrote:

"I brought up that she has given me lots of reason to make her think she is seeing OM, and she got quite upset and said we need to call our lawyers now..."

Like I said...being accused is like being painted into a corner. She is in defense mode big time.

Don't force it out of her. She will expose the A on her own when the time is right. Maybe the MC, as a neutral party, can shine some light on it.

She needs to at least let you know where you stand so that you can react with sound judgement. She owes you that. The MC should enforce that also.

tagging off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ October 02, 2002, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: ba109 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by need4concern:
<strong>I'd like to work on Plan A, but it seems that the wall she has built up to me is pretty high and very thick and everything I say cannot get throught the wall. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You don't need her permission or even cooperation to Plan A. What you're doing is trying to meet her needs, but not all of her needs are things that have to do with her directly, so you don't need to talk to her about them.

Don't point out your Plan A changes to her. Don't expect her to respond to them, and for god's sake, don't try to convince her of anything. Just do what you need to do for your Plan A, and then let it be. You're creating new habits to show her that you really can meet her needs. You hope she will notice, but you want her to understand that these changes are real, longterm habits and not something you'll just quit at some point.

In a lot of situations like this, you have trust issues to overcome. She doesn't trust you to meet her needs, because from her point of view, you haven't been all this time. No, it doesn't excuse her behavior, but just like you'll have to overcome your own trust issues with her behavior, she needs to come to trust you again too.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Her emotions to me are anger at best. It's so fustrating. She comments that what I am trying to do is make her love me and she doesn't want that.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, she definitely doesn't want you to Plan A her.

1) It could work, and then where would she be? If she really has an OM out there, she doesn't want to feel anything for you. That would be too hard to deal with.

2) You're making her feel guilty, which makes her angry at you.

3) She wants you to be the kind of person she can blame for what she's doing. If you're being good to her, it's kind of hard to do that -- not that she won't try, mind you. But it's definitely harder to place all the blame on the BS when the BS is doing a good Plan A.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I managed to convince her to go again, but the lack of emotion for me is devistating. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She's going to hurt you a whole lot more before this is over. Learn to do good things for yourself.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm scared to death that OM is going live my dream and life that I had always wanted.

If seperation happens, everything will be taken away.

She wants me away this weekend, so she can be with the kids. Don't know what to do...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First, I'd just like to say that these are your kids too. Just because she's the 'mom' does not mean you should be thinking of giving her custody by default if you get divorced/separated. If she's having an A and wants to move out or separate, let her take responsibility for that. Don't enable her to 'have it all' by giving her the house and custody of the kids, while you move into an apartment, and OM starts to move into your life.

uh uh. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

You are part of this family, and you're not the one breaking it up. Let her take the responsibility. Let her see exactly what she could be losing. If it comes to that, you're going to need to let the OM meet all her needs, and it's kind of hard for him to meet the need for her family, if she's only a part time mom.

She doesn't get to keep all the good parts of your relationship, while moving onto another man.

I don't remember seeing you say that she had moved out, so if you're still living in the same house, there's no need for you to leave it this weekend, so she can be with the kids. She can be with the kids just fine with you there. If she's so hot to have some alone time with them, she can take them to a movie or out for lunch. She can watch TV with them in another room or play board games with them at the kitchen table, while you mow the lawn or something. If you have something else to do this weekend, that's fine, but I don't think she should be telling you to leave your own house, so she can be with the kids.

Mere

First of all thanks for all the replies, they really help. You know it really got me thinking, that I didn't want to leave this weekend at all, I was leaving to make her happy, so she can do whatever. I think I'm going to stay home, however I think she will probably go ballistic. I know I will have to stay calm and stick to Plan A. I think Plan A has totally confused her, although I have only started for a day and a half. She came home late from work (again)and I was outside playing with my kids and the rest of the kids in the neighborhood. I think it was hard for her to look at me and kids having fun and acting like there was nothing wrong. I have a app with the MC today and I'm anxious to see what she has to say. I'm going by myself first, for guidance and some more ideas. The both of us go tomorrow. Don't know how that will go, and I'm a little afraid of what W will say.. I know I have heard it all before, but when your trying to Plan A and you hear the "I just can't give you what you want(or need)" or "I just don't love you anymore", it makes Plan A that much harder. Can anyone give me any insight on what I might expect at the MC ?
or what I should do ?

women love to feel loved and appreciated, maybe this was missing in your marriage. Why don't you have flowers delivered to here at work, with a sweet note inside just saying: thinking about you, Love, (your name). Nothing pushy or anything, but simple.

If she does work with OM, this may cause a little tension <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , but you have done nothing wrong, remember don't push anything, keep it sweet and simple

yes - be concerned. Also, be prepared, because your missus has an affair, with 99% likelyhood.

now, there are a couple of things you can do:
- get proof so that you can confront her with black & white evidence
- brace yourself for the worst (many people, including myself, learnt about it the hard way fairly unprepared)
- read a lot on this site (like he posts on the forum, the articles)
- know that there is hope! even if at the start of the discovery she will say she loves the other guy, he is better at this and that, know that it's the fog speaking. it's not her. do your plan A. ask on this forum in case of questions. the stuff works, you know.

Sorry - read your second post just now.
what to expect? here's the top of the pops:
- I love you but I'm not in love with you
- he and I are soulmates
- he fulfills my needs in a way you never could and will never be able to
- maybe we married too young, too quick etc. we changed in the mean time
- I feel so much more alive with him. You on the opposite are controlling and try to tie me down.
- He cares so much about me, you dont seem to care and ignore me
- He is a much better father than you

tell me how many of the above I got right!

<small>[ October 03, 2002, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</small>

Find out if OM is married and contact his W to tell her the truth. Sure it will be a huge love bust for your WW but the OM W deserves to know the truth about her H and your WW. Most OM's are cowards that once the truth of the A has been revealed to their W's, they drop the WW's like a hot potatos and tell them the standard line that they decided to work on their M. They do this because they were not really in love with the WW's but just wanted to have sex on the side with them, but they are scared sh****ss that their W's will throw them out and file for divorce and take them to the cleaners. If you are worried about your WW hating you no end, consider your inocent children and how much they would suffer if you allowed an opportunity to inject a toxic dose of reality to your WW's A to pass you by and possibly save your M.

TMCM:

I mulled over the decision 2 tell OMW about the A or not for a good 4 months after D-day. I came pretty close, 2. Then, in May, my WW told me that OMW had found out about the A and had thrown OM out of the house. This got me nervous, since he could then be "available" 2 persue my W. I also felt bad that OMW had 2 find out the way I did, via emails. But then, my W told me that she had found out about the first A they had 12 years ago and made OM move their family out of state and promise never 2 see my W again. I wish OMW had told ME then! In any case, I didn't feel so bad about not telling her before she found out this time. What's the point of all this? Well, most people urged me NOT 2 contact OM or OMW. Mainly because I don't know them well enough 2 know how they'd react. And like I said, it's possible that OM would come after your W if his W tossed him out on his ear. Maybe TMCM is right, I don't know. I may never know in my case. But at this point, I don't think I'll have 2 either.

n4c:

Some things 2 remember here:

Your W is infatuated with the attention she's getting elsewhere. When reality hits (as it would if you separated and she tried 2 live with OM), the fantasy will start 2 fall apart and she'll start 2 realize that she's living with a liar and a cheat. Where's the future in that? But this all could take quite a bit of time. Exposing the A, once you have proof of it, can accelerate the process, but it's risky.

In what way? Well, in my si2uation, my W never left our family 2 be with OM. They only met at out of town conferences a couple times a year (this 2nd time). They both realized that they didn't want 2 lose their families, so they would "never be 2gether". And, so long as I or OMW didn't know about the A, they could continue seeing each other occasionally and emailing each other daily. When I found out, I reacted rather badly (though my first reaction was "what went wrong" rather than "get out", I did a lousy plan A for about 4 months). My poor plan A had me worried that I'd drive her 2 OM because being with me was 2 painful for her. Over time, I realized that even the slightest LB could be rationalized by her in2 justification for her behavior and blame shifting all the responsibility for our "bad M" on my shoulders. So, when I STOPPED LBing completely, and started loving her for who she is, not what she was doing, she started 2 respond. And for over 2 months now, we've been making real progress. We were even able 2 talk about OM and her continued contact with him, calmly, this past weekend. Since then, we've been closer than ever (and so far as I can tell, she hasn't contacted him again).

Another thing 2 remember here is that you are the father of her children. OM can never replace you. If she ever sees through this fog of hers, she'll realize that the best she can hope for is come kind of joint custody, where you shuffle your kids from house 2 house and see each other that way until the kids are out on their own. Not a very attractive future.

The other thing I note in your original post is that you quickly recognized you weren't giving her enough of your attention, and you've shed some of the hobbies that took your attention from her. ...try selling the TV, next! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Seriously, I had a similar "problem" with a favorite hobby of mine before D-day. I was spending 4 nights a week outside. Since D-day, I stopped stone cold. So much so that she's tried 2 get me 2 take it up again (but in moderation!). So far, I haven't wanted 2 very much. I've been making a hobby out of reviving my love for her and watching hers grow for me in the process.

This will take time. Most As need at least a few months 2 up 2 2 years 2 burn themselves out, though it seems they die faster after they've been exposed (reality isn't very conducive 2 perpetuating the fantasy!). Focus on yourself and your kids, but work on doing as good a plan A as you can. Watch your W's response evolve as you get better at it. And remember that it's okay 2 hope, but don't expect. This time is for you 2 work on yourself, so that at the end of this, you will be a better H, either for your W or for some other lucky gal later on.

all my best,

I' still trying to figue out the letter coding so bear with me, cause I think I got it wrong, or maybe I didn't, sorry if I did. When I used MC I meant Marriage Counselor, I hope that is right, but by the new and informing posts maybe not. I'm really interested in what I will expect from the Marriage Counselor. I have no real true hard evidence that I can present to W that I know. Will she admit the A at a Marriage Counseling?. Or will she hold it for as long as it takes ? I think admission is the first part of the fix. I'm scared to know, But want to know from rather than finding it out "the hard way".

n4c:

If the MC (which does stand for Marriage Counselor) is any good, they'll be able 2 tell pretty much right off the bat whether there's an A or not. You may not need 2 confront your W with any specific evidence, but if you do in order 2 let her know YOU know, tell her only what you need 2. If you need 2 continue snooping 2 find out more, you don't want 2 reveal your methods. And remember, if you snoop, you might just make yourself crazy! I know I did. I still "snoop" on occasion, but not in depth, and not often, which has helped me cope better. Something 2 think about.

Well all here is an update. My W and I just got from the MC and my expections were a little disappointing. My W and I told our story and it seemed like my W played the counselor like a fiddle. The outcome was I should give her the emotional distance she wants, because it angers her when I tell her I love her and give her compliments and what not. However the MC did say that physical distance has nothing to do with giving her "her space". My wife said I know that the way she is acting makes it look like she is haveing a A but assured me and MC she was not. MC told me no to tell her I love her and stay clear of intimate emotional conversation.

With that on the way home in the car, again she asked me where I'm going this weekend. I told her nowere, I'm staying home. Oh GOOD LORD. Side note I bought her 2 doz roses and had them sent to work saying I was thinking of her and that I loved her(something the MC told me not to do), Well I told W that well dont get mad but I sent her flowers to her work..."You did what !!!" In 2 seconds she was on the phone telling one of her associates, when they come to pull the card....Anyway abought me staying home...Ballistic and total anger to say the least.."I NEED MY SPACE" and now its too late ..I'm calling a lawyer on Monday, we are getting a divorce. Unbelievably, I stayed calm and collected and said well I don't want that, and she said well you pushed me to far..OK.Shw just kept on the fact that I'm going to be home this weekend.. Then she says I'm getting a legal seperation, and you will have to move out...Is that true???...Does anyone know what my rights are?? I'm scared and alone and really questioning my methods and what I should do..

n4c:

It's sad, but the numbers of bad MCs out there are far larger than the numbers of good ones.

I can't understand why the MC would recommend you not say ILY 2 your W! I CAN understand why it might be good for you 2 not talk about your relationship for a while, though, and maybe that's part of it. You should just show you love your W through your actions first. Like, help around the house when you can. Do things for her without asking (so long as it doesn't annoy her), things like that.

I still think it sounds pretty likely that your W is having an A. Stick 2 your guns and stay home for the weekend if you want 2. Others here will have 2 advise you about legal matters, as I haven't gone that far. A lot will depend on the state you live in and the DV laws they have there. I doubt she can make you move out, but you should probably get a lawyer 2 answer that question for you. Don't take my word for it.

Above all, be yourself. Take care of yourself and your kids. THEN, feel free 2 show your W you love her in any way that you can. She's probably pi$$ed because you're doing that, and it doesn't justify her behavior if you're being nice 2 her! (makes no sense at all, right? That's the FOG for you!).

All my best,

First of all this site is great, it help calm me down and pu things into perspective..Anyways here is a quick note. W just called and thanked me for the flowers and said they were pretty. Of course I asked if the card was still there..She said yes. Then calmly asked if I had thought about staying at a hotel. I said I had and I'm staying at home...BOOM..anger again..She told me to move my stuff to spare bedroom. I said if that will make you happy, then I will(still calm and collected).Well she also let me know she is working late again..Thank goodness I 'm with my kids..Am I still doing the right things....???

I think you're doing the right things. Although you might consider moving HER stuff in2 the spare bedroom!

But don't just do that because I said 2. YOU'RE the one that's going 2 have 2 live with her anger, not me.

I think it was good that she liked the flowers. Baby steps!

Newest Update..W came home, and basically gave me a ultamateum. Either I get hotel room this weekend or she IS filing for D and will not give share (joint) custudy of my children..I getting worried and scared..Are these just scare tactics? need some reassurance..