Hi Mortar,

It's so good to hear that you're doing so well - KEEP GOING!!!!

I can only tell you it does get better! Yes there will be times and struggles for both of you but as long as you remain committed, you'll both make it through this.

I agree with you about the pinning ceremony, I would also feel a little "left out." I'm not sure how to advise you on this one but I can tell you after our reconciliation there were some VERY VERY awkward moments with us being together. Sometimes it was her friends and sometimes mine. Our attitude became "so what!" Bottom line, we felt we could not worry about how others would think or how much talking would occur once we turned our backs. Sometimes its better to face the music - for both of you! It is part of the healing process. It may be worrisome for her but -- you're the one "all the eyes will be on," so if you can handle it then who cares. I went before my W's friends with my head high - You should do the same!!!

With regard to the SF, this also will take some time. But I think others in recovery will also tell you the same thing. It sounds like you're doing great so just let it go at that!

Our two year D-day anniversary just passed with our two years of reconciliation coming in a few months. With each passing day, it does get better and better and less to think about during sex and relationship.

Keep going Mortar - you're on the road to success!!!

MITT

I would advise you to attend the ceremony if possible. You can tell her that you'll be in the background so as not to cause her any problems with the rest of the graduating folk. Validate her feelings, but at the same time acknowledge that you are proud of her achievement and would like to see her beeming with pride, even if its at a distance. Even if by chance the FOM were to show his ugly mug at the event, I'll bet she would be proud of you if you kept your composure and ignore him (what a way of showing off the new MM).

<small>[ May 04, 2003, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Thanks to all of the replies!

marathonman: Thanks for the encouragement. I will post shortly on your thread!

Eleanor: it appears to me that you are handling things well at this point. As JL says...steady as she goes!

STSSI: I have watched your threads and have loved to hear the two of you talk about moving forward. You asked...How do I do it? I am not really sure, except that I know that I am not driving this train. My trust is in Jesus now...He really is in the miracle business. On a practical level, I still have the nightmares, the triggers, etc. But, what I try to do is stay in prayer, to take "timeouts" when things start feeling bad (my wife is very supportive of this because I have made her aware that when I do this, I NEED the time to sort things out). I too have many questions, but I figure we have the rest of our lives to find them out. I leave it alone mostly for now, so I can do as the Harley's say and build up the love banks Talking about the A only drains it. So, we do very little of that for now. That time will come later. Lay off the A talk, unless she brings it up. Get your love bank refilled by her before trying to get into those nasty details. I do have a little on the affair in my update below.

MTD: Good to hear from you! I am still looking into the pinning ceremony this Thursday. See my update below. thanks for the encouragement!

ALS: Thanks for the post. Plan B is hard at first. You are just going to have to trust it. If you did a good plan A, then it should work its magic 9go back to my posts). Again, on the pinning ceremony, I am still working that out. We'll see!

JL: Thanks my friend. when we were talking just several months ago, I never thought I would be here. Thanks for keeping me pointed in the right direction.

Sue: Yeah, my wife is excited (as I am sure you are). Her last exam is tomorrow, her pinning ceremony on Thursday and graduation next Tuesday. When do you graduate? My wife actually is feeling a little depressed, probably because of the let down emotionally. She has been pushing hard for the last two years. now that it is ending, I guess it is going to be a new life for her (plus her being back in her marriage and with me and the kids...a lot of changes all at once!). good luck to you also on the NCLEX!

MITT: Thanks for chiming in. We have run similar races, and you have been one of the ones always confident that my wife would come through. She really has!

Coffeeman: I'm trying to get to the ceremony. We will see what happens tomorrow in our discussion.

Now...the update...

Nothing on the pinning ceremony yet, although we will probably talk more about that tomorrow.

We have had a great week. My wife has been having several "female problems" over the last few weeks, so the SF issue has kind of moved to the wayside for awhile. in the meantime, we have had some great talks. Like I said above, she continues to trash the OM. She cannot believe she was with someone like him. Over and over, she tells me of his shortcomings. And I do not ask for these talks...they just come forward from her on her own. She even called me on my cell this past weekend (I had to work) and said "I just wanted you to know that I do not regret making this decision." I asked her what decision. She said "coming home to you." Wow! All she talks about is the future now...how excited she is for us. She is making all sorts of plans for us, as a family and as a couple. she has even skipped several study groups for her finals, because she just wanted to stay home with me.

So, what I have prayed for has definitely happened. now we will see if time and love will heal the damage she has done. I want those memories gone, or at least not so prevalent.

More soon...

In His arms.

<small>[ May 05, 2003, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

MM,

No you don't want those memories gone. You want the sting of those memories gone. The memories of what has happened will be with you and Mrs. MM for the rest of your life. The only issue is will they guide you to a better life or will they drag you down.

But, recalling what happened and why can be a very good motivation in your life. MM, you and your W have been given a gift, don't run away from it, but embrace it, learn from it, grow from it. If you two do that, you will come to look upon this period of your life in a far different light than you do now. I can think of a long list of pluses to counter the negatives that have occurred.

MM this even applies to the sexual issues.

So start thinking along those lines as time goes on. You two are still new to this and still sorting things out. Don't wait too long to have the relationship and A talk. Get it all out so that you both can deal with it and it doesn't lie like a lump in the middle of your lives with you both dreading more and more how to deal with these things.

God Bless,

JL

MM,
Thanks for responding to the "letter" question. I think WH may have recieved it yesterday, but I did some LBing on sat. and not sure if it will have any affect.(I also sent a 2nd one and sure that hasn't been recieved yet) See my last Thread if you dare.
I won't ask if he recieved it or should I?
Things seem pretty bad right now and I need to regain control of my emotions. Contact with WH is becoming difficult, because of my anger, frustration level, etc.
I Will work on that.
Hope things continue to go well for you & Mrs. MM.

JL: thanks for the post. You are right as usual. We definitely are wiser than we were.

Learnin: you are okay. I will go to your thread today or tomorrow and check up on you. hang in there!

Now for everyone, I kind of have a question for the group. Opinions welcome.

First of all, my wife and I had a minor argument this morning. Nothing out of line. Just working thru issues. But she did bring up something that kind of triggered me, and I really am a little confused. She said something about one of the reasons she doesnt trust me right now is what I did to her while this was going on. That I was her nemesis. I told her if I had been her friend, she would still be apart from me. She agreed with that. But she said "you didnt show me any respect." I told her "you're right. And what you were doing was not worthy of respect. Your actions were wrong...why do I have to respect or validate wrong actions or feelings?" she kind of agreed with me, I guess.

My issue is this. All along, one of the reasons my wife was unhappy is because she thought I didnt value her opinion or feelings when she was in the marriage. To an extent, she may be right. but during the affair, many around her told me that I was not validating her feelings (whatever that means), that I didnt respect her.

And they are right during that period! And why should I? This is a serious question. I am not talking about making disrespectful judgments. I am saying that if something is wrong, then why do I have to treat it any differently than being wrong.

Example: Jeffrey Dahmer had the feeling he wanted to rape, kill and eat people. Those were his feelings and he acted on them. We would all agree that they were wrong. But, in dealing with him, should we have validated his feelings, and shown them respect? I dont think so.

Example: My feelings toward the OM are well known. Personally, I have already come up with 38 ways I would love to take him out...slowly! Those are my feelings. if I acted on them and committed murder, would my wife then have to validate my feelings and show them respect? I think not. Those feelings are wrong and should be treated as wrong.

So, my question is...if what Jeffrey Dahmer did was wrong, if me murdering the OM would be wrong...if adultery is wrong...then why validate the feelings? Why respect the actions?

I understand getting to the problems that led up to the affair. I understand dealing with the psychological issues Jeffrey Dahmer had. I understand dealing with my anger issues and the events that led up to me killing the OM, if I did such a thing. but to validate those actions and feelings, to show them respect, rubs me wrong. If they are wrong, they should be treated as wrong.

I told my wife that if she expected me to change my opinion on her behavior and her adultery, then she would be waiting a very long time. She said "I was done with the marriage...I wanted to leave you." Again, I told her I understood what she wanted, and why she wanted it. But, just because she wanted it doesnt make it right. Just because I want to see the OM physically suffer does not mean it is right to do so.

So, please weigh in. Thanks in advance.

In His arms.

Hi MM.

I totally agree with your pov and with regards to her statement "I was done with the marriage...I wanted to leave you." you could tell her you felt exactly the same way when you decide to start your friendship with the OW, and so why is it ok for her to use the standard of not considering herself a married woman who did not betray you with her torrid EA/PA with another man and yet insist to use the standard of considering you a married man who betrayed her with a platonic frienship with another woman just prior to the divorce being finalized?

MM does your W still consider that the R she had with the OM was not an A? I ask because an interesting question to pose to her is if tomorrow you were to feel like she did, would it be ok with her for you to follow her footsteps and do what she did? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I'd like to see her answer those two.

<small>[ May 08, 2003, 11:56 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Hi MM

My final is Monday, graduation is Wednesday. I know, not much time in between. They have to rush to get grades done so we know if we graduate or not.

I passed my clinical with a B, I was expecting a C, so I am happy about that.

As far as my pinning ceremony goes, I am choosing to skip it. I can either spend 80 dollars so the whole family can attend, or 66 dollars for my daughers dance recital. Dance recital won hands down. I could not enjoy the pinning ceremony if I had to give up the recital. I have been looking forward to the dance recital since last fall.
I would never disappoint my daughter by not being there.

With regards to your question:

I sort of understand where your Wife is coming from. I also understand the need to know as a BS. How important of an issue is this in helping the recovery progress? If it is a minor issue that will not build into a big issue, can it come to one of those that "you agree to disagree" If it is a big issue, then I think you both need to come to an respectful understanding so you both can proceed in recovery

--

<small>[ May 08, 2003, 11:56 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

MM-

This is sort of something that my thread is slightly touching n right now so I wanted to explore this a little.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She said something about one of the reasons she doesnt trust me right now is what I did to her while this was going on. That I was her nemesis. I told her if I had been her friend, she would still be apart from me. She agreed with that. But she said "you didnt show me any respect." I told her "you're right. And what you were doing was not worthy of respect. Your actions were wrong...why do I have to respect or validate wrong actions or feelings?" she kind of agreed with me, I guess.

My issue is this. All along, one of the reasons my wife was unhappy is because she thought I didnt value her opinion or feelings when she was in the marriage. To an extent, she may be right. but during the affair, many around her told me that I was not validating her feelings (whatever that means), that I didnt respect her.

And they are right during that period! And why should I? This is a serious question. I am not talking about making disrespectful judgments. I am saying that if something is wrong, then why do I have to treat it any differently than being wrong </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM-
I'm not certain that THIS question IS the REAL issue here. I agree wholeheartedly with your point of view based on YOUR perception. Please don't get ANGRY with what I'm about to write. I'm just giving you the WS point of view...

Her perception was something like this:
I left beacuse (FOG bable here). In my mind IT WAS OVER. I was unhappy because (list problems) and after so many attempts with no real changes, I found someone that would TELL me what I wanted to hear. That made me feel wonderful because all of MY ideas and issues were finally VALIDATED. Someone HEARD me and agreed that YOU were a monster!!!

She expected YOU to let her go. She expected that you would say: "It's okay honey, I know I was the evil one and I understand why you left. Good luck in your new life and I will be there to ki$$ your a$$ when you let me." Since you stood up for your marriage and refused to let her go, you weren't respecting her wishes.

Now she's back. The issues that led her to her choices ARE STILL THERE...she hasn't done the work yet. She's looking for you to take responsiblity for YOUR part in the mess. In her eyes, she still may see that she wasn't 100% wrong (yet).
The REAL issue I think is that I think she is looking for the same validation that I am from X. She's looking for you to say, Yes honey, I understand WHY you had to run to someone else. I see what a monster I was. I know how it's hurt you. She wants you to accept responsibility for HER demise...it's a WS FOG thought...I was not aware of this until Still Trying and this post pointed it out...

Kily....

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Since you are a former WS (and someone I consider a friend now), you know I value your point of view.

And this is exactly what I was talking about and asking about. by what you have said here, the 'reality" in the fog is what it is. I understand that. I can see the warped contortions my wife had to mentally and emotionally go through to turn me into the "monster."

My question is not how she got there...I have figured that out. My question is...why so many people (including my wife right now) seem to think that I should validate her feelings of wanting to leave, of starting an affair. Divorce is wrong. Adultery is wrong. But, for some reason, some people think I should give some sort of credence to those feelings and actions.

As I said above, if I were to murder the OM (which I will not...so everyone relax!), ther reasons behind those feelings and actions are very apparent. And we can all look at Mortarman and "understand" why he reached that point. But, we all can also conclude that murdering the OM is wrong in this situation. Thus, my actions would be wrong and really have no validity. They should be held up to introspection and dismissed as wrong.

Again, I am not saying ignore the problems that led up to a wrongful action. If I had been a better husband, the OM would not have ever had a chance. But just like my wife commiting adultery does not give me the license to kill, my not attending to her needs does not give her the right to commit adultery.

I guess I am stuck in the semantics here. And Kily...by what you have written here, I feel like I am doing the right thing by holding my ground and not giving credence to those feelings and actions that are clearly wrong and immoral. My wife has said over the last few weeks that one problem she is trying to get over is my view of what she did. for everyone that posted above...she knows what she did was wrong. That wasnt the question. but just like a person who is dying of hunger breaks into my house and steal s food (thus commiting the wqrongful actions of breaking and entering and theft), my wife still has this fog babble that finds her immoral actions as somehow justified.

From what I have read, WSs eventually come out of this phase and stop justifying their wrongful actions. But my question is that my wife wants me to validate her feelings. And I told her that I will NEVER change my mind about how wrong she has been I have told her over and over that for the last year and a half, when it comes to her personal life...she has done NOTHING right. Until a month ago.

Again, Kily...thanks for the reply. You made my point exactly where my wife is. My question is...some say I should, for the sake of moving things on, validate her feelings and actions. While I can say that I know what they were and why she had them, I give them no more weight than I do any other immoral behavior. They are clearly wrong and should not be repeated.

In His arms.

MM-

OMG, I have a freind!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Actually it means a lot to me that Bs's value what I have to say. It makes me feel good inside to know that my internal battles can hekp others.

It's a power struggle, just like the pinning ceremony.

Do you want to be RIGHT? or do you want to be in love?

I guess what I'm getting at is that unless she feels validated in some way, she will not begin to trust. Are you being prideful here or is it a battle that you honestly need to win for YOUR validation? What harm will be caused to your personal integrity if you gave in? What would eb gained if you stood your ground?

Pick and choose the battles...you want to win the war.

Think about the answers to these questions...hopefully it will lead you to the answer.

MM,

I really like Kily's response to you. I thought I would offer some other thoughts as well. You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">From what I have read, WSs eventually come out of this phase and stop justifying their wrongful actions. But my question is that my wife wants me to validate her feelings. And I told her that I will NEVER change my mind about how wrong she has been I have told her over and over that for the last year and a half, when it comes to her personal life...she has done NOTHING right. Until a month ago. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, let's talk affirmation, standing ones ground, and validation. I think the problem many people have when in the fog, and there are definitely wisps of it swirling around your W <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , is that things get all mixed up, hence we call it the fog.

Let's start with some word choices. I am guessing that NEVER, NOTHING strike her very hard. Perhaps a thesaurus (I need a dictionary <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) might be required, but those words will strike her hard, and raise her defenses. You want her to listen to you and keep the defenses down, information flow is important here. So, you could say that it is "unlikely that I will ever really see things exactly like you do" as a wordy way of saying NEVER.

You could point out that "her contributions to the family for the last year and a half have been BELOW what one would expect of a mother and a W", rather than "she has done NOTHING right".

The point is you want to get your point across, but it won't happen if she is defending herself. She will block all "incoming" whether it is a shell or important information. Do you see what I mean?

Now the issue of validation. I think YOU are going to be the one that has to tease apart the several issues that are involved in her behavior. My guess is that they would go like this.

1. You didn't care for me and didn't love me.

2. You never felt I was good enough.

3. I wanted out of the marriage so I decided it was over.

4. I had an affair because of items 1-3.

Now, each of these items needs addressing, but none of them justify 4. She knows this or will come to realize it as time goes on. However, items 1-3 are items you could validate and agree to discuss and work on for the future.

So my suggestion is that when something like this comes up, redirect her general statement to one of the three items you know you could work on. You could do this by simply asking her a responding question. "Are you saying that I wasn't very good at letting you know that I did value your input? Let's talk about that for a moment."

And the moment can drag out for hours. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I guess I am suggesting that you NOT talk about her reasons for the A, but her reasons for feeling the marriage was over. THe A was her choice and you really cannot validate that. The feelings about the marriage were generated by the two of you and therefore is a good thing for the two of you to discuss.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

MM,

You have some of the best people that MB has to offer in your thread, giving you some of the best advice I have ever read, so I consider myself a minor leaguer here...

But I can agree with them for sure. What Kily said about winning the war over winning the battle is true.

Your wife wants validation for the A because she needs that release, she needs some of the guilt to be lifted right now, and that's what she thinks will do it (it won't). What you can, and have done, is admitted to the mistakes that you made prior to the A, and what you did that led up to it. For the A itself, like everyone here says, she alone is to blame. She made the choice and is responsible for her actions.

Now, does that mean you should shove that in her face? No, like JL says, you simply validate the other stuff. Stand firm and make sure she knows that the A was hurtful to you, and that you don't agree with that choice (you don't validate it). You UNDERSTAND what led up to her making that choice but you still disagree with it. She knows it was wrong. You don't need to keep reminding her of that unless she pushes it out of you.

What will come to her, to validate her own feelings and feel better about herself, will be to talk to you about things. To take responsibility for her actions. Even though my W and I have not reconciled, I found that when we talked, and she owned up to her part in what happened, I felt progress. She has freely admitted what she did was wrong, and I have freely admitted in the part I played in what led up to the A. Unfortuntaely, it wasn't enough to get her to leave the OM or want to work on the M, but I felt such a huge wall come down when we came to that understanding. I know you'll feel the same way when you have that converstaion with your W, and you both can agree on those things.

Hope something I said helped. You are doing great, and one of the people here whom I admire most.

ALS

MM: Oh, joy, I think I can say something REALLY useful here. I struggled with this, too. Though my wife was MUCH more remorseful than yours, there were tsome things she just didn't want to let go of. But you know what? In some cases, I concluded she was right. Because I, like you, was lumping feelings, thoughts, and desires together. They are different.

Let me illustrate, with an example from your last post. You do not feel like killing the OM. You desire to kill the OM. Desires and feelings are different. Desires can be "wrong" (sinful). Feelings cannot be. Not even righteous anger, despite the Biblical admonition to love your neighbor as yourself, as I'm sure you know it is written "Be angry, and do not sin."

So, using the "kill OM" example, and assuming the anger you feel toward him is based on the pain he caused you (could also be fear that he would hurt you again, but we'll use just the pain theory for illustrative purposes): You FEEL hurt. In order to avoid feeling the hurt too much, as a defense mechanism, out of habit, you turn the hurt to anger (also a FEELING, but a secondary one rooted in pain, fear, or frustration). Feeling hurt is not sinful. It can't be. It is just the way you feel, the way God created you (all of us) to respond to certain stimuli. Feeling angry may or may not be sinful, I don't think I can go into that here (frankly i don't know in this case, to be honest). Now, how you respond to that feeling of anger is to desire to eliminate the source of the pain. Now we are getting to something that can be sinful. There are several ways to eliminate the pain, one of which is to kill the OM, who is causing it. THAT is sinful. IF you followed it up by acting on that desire, THAT sould be sinful too. But, the root feeling of all this (pain) is not sinful. The only feeling I know of that is sinful is UNrighteous anger - but it's underlying feelings (hurt, fear, frustration) are not.

Now, I think I know something about what your wife is saying that you are missing, here: You have reported that she has said that she "felt like the marriage was over", or words to that effect. I think what she was saying was that 1.)she FELT emotionally disconnected from you. That is a feeling, which you should understand and appreciate, based on your living arrangements and how you were treating her. There is nothing "wrong" or sinful about that feeling. and 2.) Partly because of the way she felt, she "thought" that your marriage was over. It was that thought that was sinful, not her feelings. She then followed up on that thought with sinful actions.

Now, I say "partly" in point two because there are always other reasons our feelings influence us to have different thoughts. Beliefs are a particularly likely culprit in your wife's case. Perhaps her deeply held, and perhaps never expressed, dreams about what marriage "should" be like were so far removed from what your marriage was like that she could not reconcile the concept of "marriage" with what she was experiencing. Perhaps the OM was alreay a factor (or another innappropriate male friendship) and there was a payoff for her in being able to pursue a relationship that felt good. Perhaps a combination of both those things plus three or four others that I haven't thought of.

But anyway, my point is that her "FEELING" unmarried was a secondary emotion based on some primary feeling of disconnectedness from you. Recognizing and validating that feeling of emotional distance, and recognizing your contribution to it, is a necessary part of BOTH your healing, and pursuing understanding of your wife's point of view about ALL things in life (especially things unrelated to the A, actually) to the level of those hopes, dreams, thoughts, assumptions, and underlying feelings that she has until you really beging to understand her, will bring you closer together, and help you to trust her again.

Make sure you don't spend too much time on this as it relates to the A. This is not fun for her. You need to do fun stuff with her. Let God deal with her and with her guilt.

Sign up for Penny Tupy's newsletter at saveyourmarriagecentral.com. I wrote an article for her May issue that goes into this in some detail. The next issue, I will be doing a follow-up article on rebuilding trust, which is closely related.

<small>[ May 09, 2003, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> J39 wrote: MM: Oh, joy, I think I can say something REALLY useful here. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course, while I was composing my tome. JL said it much more succinctly <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

MM,

I think that JL and johnh39 have given you some excellent advice. With that being said...

Is your W specifically wanting you to validate the A, or are you interpreting her desire for you to understand what led to the A, as validation for the A in your mind?

In other words, are you subconsciously telling yourself that if you acknowledge and validate the events leading to her A, that you will be indirectly excusing the A, itself?

Something to think about......

HCII

Thanks all for the posts. They are VERY helpful. As usual, you all are helping me work through some issues here, so I am ready when I get home.

All of you pretty much hit on the same points. I agree with the issue of separating feelings from action. I have told my wife that I understand her feelings LEADING up to her wanting to leave and the affair. I understand my part in making our relationship what it was. It is not these feelings she is trying to get me to validate, because I have and continue to not only validate them, but to work on them with her. That is the good news.

The issue here is a little more complex. Once I left for Bosnia on deployment, she gave up on our marriage and sought out another man. she had an affair, and in many ways, began to build a new life. just like her pinning ceremony last night, which the Om was originally scheduled to go to several months ago, she had presented him and her relationship with him to the world as her future.

Her problem is that I, in her mind, showed no respect for her feelings, for her privacy with him, for her new life. And in many ways, SHE IS RIGHT! I would not sugar coat what she was doing with anyone. She still to this day is angry for me for dragging her name in the dirt in our community (note: I did not necessarily do this...instead, when asked how we were doing, I didnt say separated or working on issues, but generally told the truth to others that my wife was sleeping around with the local bar bouncer and had separated from me and left me and the kids). She feels that I was undermining her, "terrorizing" her, and generally not showing her any respect.

This is what she is talking about. She is not saying adultery is right. She is saying that she did so because of the conditions she lived in...that people divorce all of the time...that I needed to "get with it." But ladies and gentlemen...I have never been able to do that!

To me, if something is wrong, it is wrong. Period. I understand john39's deal on feelins versus action. Feelings are not necessarily wrong. My wife feeling abandoned and unloved was not wrong. Her wanting to be out of the pain was not wrong. her wanting out of the marriage and divorce was wrong. Her wanting to start a relationship with another man was wrong.

My issue is that I guess she wants me to be sorrowful and change my mind about how I treated her while we were apart and while she was with the OM. That isnt going to happen. Apart from the incident back in August that landed me in jail, and a few conversations we had where I said a few mean things that I really didnt mean (and have apologized for), most of what I did, I feel, was proper, and she deserved it. She did not deserve my respect. Their relationship did not deserve me just leaving it alone and leaving them to their privacy. It was a relationship that only deserved contempt and condemnation.

So, what I think she is asking for is me to change my mind about how I treated her and how I viewed her during this time. Maybe it is guilt. Maybe she doesnt want me looking down on her, as I did during the affair. I have assured her that that will not be the case. Maybe my taking on some guilt during this will allieve some guilt and pressure off her and help her relax more (as Kily stated). Maybe. And Kily...I do want to be married and in love with my wife. But in my code of ethics and honor, I will not change my mind about who she became and what she did. And I wont say one thing, and think something different.

Her wanting to divorce and her having an affair is her responsibility. If she feels guilt from it, it is up to her to work through that guilt, and seek absolution from Christ. As Dr. Phil says...own what is yours. I own up to what I have done wrong, and how I might have put her in a bad situation where she made poor choices I have told her all of this. But if she wants an apology for my actions during the affair (minus the ones I stated above that I did apologize for), I have said that this will NEVER happen (and JL…I do get the point on my wording…and I will take your suggestion…you are right and I need to guide my wife back into the land of reality by being careful of my actions and words).

We are really, for the most part, doing pretty well. Please don't take this discussion as thinking that we are falling back because we arent. But I feel we would be doing even better, and so does she, if we could resolve this issue. I have and will stick to the issues we can do something about, and try to stay away from the A itself. But it isnt me that has a problem right now with the actions during the A…it is my wife. She says her biggest distrust of me right now is that because of my actions and of the way I could have and would have "hammered her" if things had gone on.

So, I thank everyone for this discussion. I look forward to your responses. You have given me several things to think about. Please let me know what you think about this and how I can get my wife past this distrust, without compromising my values. Because, aside from those few mistakes I made, I feel that I really did nothing wrong to her during the A.

In His arms

MM,

She is enjoying the victim mode in other words, right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You said something </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">she deserved it. She did not deserve my respect. Their relationship did not deserve me just leaving it alone and leaving them to their privacy. It was a relationship that only deserved contempt and condemnation. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Deserve!!!! I think I see something for you to consider. Did you do the things you did to protect your and your family or to punish her? Did you judge her and lay out the punishment every time you could, or where you protecting yourself, trying to save your marriage?

Is it possible that you could have handled things better IF you knew how at the time, IF you could read her mind, IF you weren't so hurt? Yeah, probably so. BUT, I know and you know, and we know you did the best you could. That is all you can really say. You cannot speak for her, you can only say you "did the best you could with the information you had, to try and save your marriage and protect your children". It is unfortunate that she feels this was all directed at her. Perhaps you could reassure her it wasn't punishment although that is how she views that.

Validate her feelings, but not her victimhood. Plus, explain that this "WASN'T ALL ABOUT HER." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

That would be my take on this.

God Bless,

JL

I do remember that you did admit to LB her a few times when you had your angry outbursts. Remember LB's kill trust and create resentment.

Perhaps it is not so much distrust but resentment she has for you having outed her to those closest to you. She may feel like she's been dishonored by your actions (although we know that it was her actions that dishonored her) and wants you to acknowledge having done so. Maybe she's afraid of what those folks you told about her A, are going to react when they see her the next time.

But anyway, I'm glad that the two of you are truly moving forward, and I do pray that this issue gets resolved soon and put to rest once and for all. When you do, we're all going to be very much interested in knowing how you achieved it.