I missed the whole swinging issue, but I don't buy this whole "oh, she must have unmet emotional needs" so she did this with this woman. When are we going to start taking responsibility for some of our actions? Yes, she probably has low self-esteem and yes, she probably feels guilty, but she needs to work these things out herself. I think it was hopeful_person, a FWS, who said in a post on another thread, that most people have unmet emotional needs, but then a lot of those people don't have an affair because of it. I respected her a great deal for saying that, because she is acknowledging that she made her choice- no, I am sure her ex-H was not perfect and made PLENTY of mistakes in the marriage, but she took her A as her responsibility. I know i am rambling.......

Hello-

IMHO I agree with everyone that thinks dating your spouse doesn't work. Particularly Mr. Coffee Man's posts.

He is right, if dating is in the context of marital recovery...great, all for it.

But one wiff in the air of cake and the BS backs off. My XW has propositioned me numerous times to start dating, still wears her wedding ring even though the D is final, then when I question her motives as to dating me, at first she says "to get to know you again, to fall in love again" and blah blah blah. But she won't commit to a path (or commit to me) that leads to reconsilliation. "too many rules" she says. Well you I don't have to be a rocket scientist to know what she means by rules do I?

Oh well, she dated while we were married what on earth did I think she would do when we are divorced and dating. But wearing the ring is a lovely gesture of manipulation isn't it.

I wonder if she wears it when she goes "out"

Dating WS when complete marital recovery is the goal with boundries= Good

Dating just to Date= Further pain for BS

Rly

When there has been alot of hurt or pain in a relationship sometimes a spouse cannot always commit to the relationship.They can however agree to take it a day at a time and date.

This was the case where my WH and I were concerned. While we both agreed we wouldn't date anyone else, we also continued to date (while separated) each other with the hope the relationship would work but certainly not the expectation. During this time, we both re-evaluated our goals, values, EN's, boundaries, etc and after several month were able to recommit to the marriage and each other.

While I realized I was potentially setting myself up for hurt, I also knew my marriage meant too much to me to not give it this one chance. I realized to expect or demand a committment ahead of time was a form of me trying to control the outcome of a situation that I have no control over.

Peace.

Wow, again I'm amazed at the respoonse this thread is getting. I want to thank all of you again for responding and helping me out with this. Here's round 1 of responses:

JD,
Congratulations on your success. I think "dating" would be good for us to get to know each other again. But, I'm not convinced that we need to separate in order to do so. I believe the separation is her way of distancing herself and seeing how I will react. I know she still believes that I will become a party animal and a male whore when she leaves. And, that if she doesn't leave then I will "not get this out of my system" and will become my old self once again. Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to read your threads, I've been swamped with work lately. However, I do believe that when I told her it was time for her to leave, and quit begging her to stay was when she began to turn around and actually begin trying without admitting it.

MM,
After reading your post I thought about this. I asked my wife to be honest and tell me her true reasons for wanting to date me, then asked her if she was doing this to let me down easier as you suggested. Her response was that this made it harder for her, if she wanted to make it easier for me she would just be a B!t(h and make me hate her. I know, I know, why believe her right? Well, she has been decietful and untruthful, but when asked a direct question she has been honest. So, I tend to believe her. She has promised not to date others, as I have. And, we have promised that if that changes we will let the other know BEFORE it happens. Yes, I know there are ways around this such as a "group" get together, etc. But it takes a leap of faith to reach a miracle right?

Adgirl,
I agree, as much as we would all like the nightmare to go away it isn't possible. My wife has also said that she would like to divorce and start all over again with a wedding and the whole thing. I myself lean more toward vow renewal as a way to start over. But, we are far from either way. I don't know if she is trying to allieve some of her guilt or what. But, I think this is genuine. I believe that dating others is VERY BAD juju.

WFLOWER,
I agree that separating to date is not a necessity. But, in her eyes it is because she cannot trust me while she's still here. I don't understand it, but that’s what she says. I've been trying to get out of the old rut and start fresh and build new habbits while building our new relationship. I believe it has been going good, I'll explain a little more later on with an update.

2MCM,
To answer your question, NO I would not date someone like my wife if I did not already know her. In fact, I would RUN from someone that acted as she has in the recent past. I agree that dating is to learn about the person you're dating. And I believe that is what we need to do. I've come to realize that we have grown apart and don't really know each other as well as we thought. Of course we can still predict each other's actions, responses, etc. But, we have been ignoring each others inner selves. Make any sense?

Faith,
There is no EA/PA going on now. Although, she does still admit feelings and "missing" OM. She does not trust me enough to go through this while we are together. She will begin IC this week, and is afraid of her vulnerability while attending IC. The old me would have taken advantage of her vulnerability and found some way to profit from it regardless if it was hurting her or not. This is what she's afraid of. I'm glad to hear your "dating" worked out for you, I hope to be posting a similar success story someday of my own. And, your right, I was initially EXTREMELY skeptical of this suggestion. However, thanks to someone wacking me over the head with a 2X4 I've realized that if I want something I have to lay something on the line. I've been hurt before, and if I get hurt again I know I will recover. Do I want to? Of course not, but I cannot ask her to take a leap of faith if I'm not willing to do the same. Also, if we try the dating game for a while and it doesn't work I will be able to walk away saying that I did everything I could do to save our marriage. If I pass this opportunity up I will always question myself and wonder if it would have worked if I had tried. To answer your question, I want my wife to love me the way she used to, I want that comfort and love back in my life that we had while dating and early on in our marriage. I don't want to go back to the way it was, but build on the best things and make it better than it ever has been.

Jen,
I think you've hit it on the head. "I feel I need to go out on dates with my spouse to get to know him again, and see if I can trust him to treat me well again." I believe this is what she wants. She likes what she sees in the new me, but can't accept it as reality because I've been so different for so long. She isn't sure if she can trust me to protect her because in the past I've let her down and hurt her. She hasn't said that she will commit to rebuilding our marriage, but she does say that "if we can both be happy together, then of course that's what I want". I believe this is her way of committing slowly without throwing everything into it to get crushed again.

Faith,
Actually I have changed a lot. I used to be angry, hateful, unhappy and a pain in the butt to live with. Now I'm easier going, happier and I try to be the best husband and father I can be. I guess I have returned to my values that I had before this whole nightmare began (the swinging). Yes we are still together, and I have been working on rebuilding our marriage since December, she has not. In fact, she will not admit to it even now, but I have seen many baby steps on her part that would suggest that she is.

"But I think what your W is really trying to say is that she is afraid that after everything that has happened you are going to leave her. I have a hard time believing she wants to separate and wants you to date. What I really think is she is just looking for some reassurance from you that you want to be married and you won't have an A on her."

I believe you are right. I've told her time and time again that only time will tell, and only my actions will prove the words that come out of my mouth.

" When there has been alot of hurt or pain in a relationship sometimes a spouse cannot always commit to the relationship. They can however agree to take it a day at a time and date."

I believe you have hit on the head again. I think this is exactly how she is feeling right now. In fact, she has said almost those exact words to me on several occasions. I have the same feelings and reservations as you did. I know I am setting myself up for disappointment and hurt. But, I've been there before and I know that I can bounce back if it happens again. And, if I'm not willing to take that "leap of faith" then how can I expect her to?

WFLOWER/Faith,
Yes, my wife does have very low self-esteem. She has been plagued with immense guilt from her childhood, anorexia and any destructive behavior you can think of. She has said that she will begin IC this week to attempt to "fix herself" and address some of her issues. I hope that this will work for her and that she will be honest and open with her IC. She promised this once before and basically told the counselor what he wanted to hear and stopped after 1 session. Granted, the counselor was a QUACK to say the least! We have taken the EN quiz when this all began. I'm sure it would be a good idea to take it again and see how our EN's have changed over the past few months.

2MCM,
You keep me grounded. I agree that if I begin dating she will as well. And, I'm sure she will use that against me at some point in the future. Right now I have NO INTENTION of dating anyone other than my wife. Many of my friends have tried to set me up with women, as they all believe that I need to "move on". And, I've met some people that I've thought; "if I was divorced I would like to date her". However, I do not want that right now, and I will not sacrifice my marriage over an impulse.

Adgirl48,
"Yes, she probably has low self-esteem and yes, she probably feels guilty, but she needs to work these things out herself. "
I agree. And I believe that if she begins counseling this week as she says she will it is the first step in a personal recovery for herself. Once she has figured out herself I believe WE will be able to begin working on US.

Rlyhurtin,
I am sorry for your situation. I hope that my wife is sincere in her proposition of dating. And I believe she is. However, there is always that cautious doubt that says, "don't let yourself get hurt again".

Ok, now for the update. We've been spending a lot more time together lately, even if it's just running to the store. I've been keeping flowers in the house all the time for the past few weeks (this is something she brought up and as a MAN I misunderstood the meening behind flowers for "no reason").

I've been offered another job in another city which would be more money, but we would have to move and I would be doing shift work again (YUK!!). Tonight we sat down to talk about it and it turned into us talking about US. We were going pretty good (I thought) when all of the sudden a notebook and the remote control came flying out of nowhere and she began yelling "FU, FU, FU".

A little while later she said that I was right and she was going back and forth, but I didn't have to worry about that anymore. She is going to "make me hate her". She said she didn't want me to do anything to make her like me because she didn't want to, she didn't want to get hurt again. She said that I've been so nice and she's been liking me lately, but that will all end because she will not allow it.

I asked her if she's been happier lately and she said yes. I asked her why she wouldn't want to continue with that happiness and build on it and she said "You will just change, you will suck me in and make me like you again then you will turn into an A$$ Hole again and it will take me another 5-10 yrs to leave you".

Right now she's not talking to me, won't answer my calls to her cell (she's at work) and very angry. But, I see this is good, that means Plan A has been working right?

Now, I'm hoping that she will snap out of this last episode and return to the way she's been lately. If not it will be a rough road for a while, and I'm honestly not sure I can stay on that road.

I know, I know, a little off topic. But, I just wanted to let everyone know the latest details. I will be out of the loop for the next 3 weeks due to business. But, I will check in as often as possible and post as well. Just cut me some slack on responses the next few weeks, and pray for peace for my wife, and what I should do about the whole job thing.

Thanks and God Bless.

I am saying a prayer for you. I think that you are a real gentleman. God set us together to help each other and you seem to do that with your troubled wife. Love is patient and kind.

When people stop blaming, the solution can become evident. I will say a prayer for your wife too. wflower

It would appear that your wife is very afraid of getting hurt again if she stays with you, and perhaps sees separation and then dating as a "safe" way to get away from the man that supposedly hurt her, and yet at the same time have a chance to see if he is changing enough that she would like to return to him. This is just my guess at things.

Oh my, that was my take before I thoroughly read your recent replies, such as this one, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think "dating" would be good for us to get to know each other again. But, I'm not convinced that we need to separate in order to do so. I believe the separation is her way of distancing herself and seeing how I will react. I know she still believes that I will become a party animal and a male whore when she leaves. And, that if she doesn't leave then I will "not get this out of my system" and will become my old self once again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why on earth does she believe you will become a party animal and a male whore????

I think you are wise to not be convinced that you need to separate in order to date and get to know each other again. Separating is something I think you should avoid at all costs. For example, if she asks YOU to move out or leave, tell her sorry, no, you won't because you want to remain married to her and want to work on your relationship, not leave.

Another thing you posted really jumps out at me, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My wife has also said that she would like to divorce and start all over again with a wedding and the whole thing. I myself lean more toward vow renewal as a way to start over.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This just blows me away. I cannot even begin to grasp why someone would want to divorce someone they fully intended to remarry. I too would lean more towards vow renewal.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree that separating to date is not a necessity. But, in her eyes it is because she cannot trust me while she's still here. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why does she think she could trust you more if she was away from you? The less she sees of you the more she feels she can trust you? This just doesn't make sense to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She will begin IC this week, and is afraid of her vulnerability while attending IC. The old me would have taken advantage of her vulnerability and found some way to profit from it regardless if it was hurting her or not. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it is a VERY good thing that she is going for IC. She sounds like she really needs to figure out why she is so afraid to trust you again. Could you explain a bit further what you mean when you say the old you would've taken advantage of her vulnerability and found some way to profit from it??? I'm starting to wonder if you emotionally abused her? Did you take advantage of her emotional vulnerability to get what you wanted from her whenever you wanted it, even if she didn't really want to give in to you?

Please elaborate more on what kind of things you have done to cause your wife to lose trust for you and be so afraid to continue to live with you. I am very curious. Some BS here will perhaps focus on the fact that SHE cheated on YOU, and so really, she should be trying to get you to trust her again. However, as a FWS myself, I'd have to say that rebuilding trust needs to go both ways.

I wish you well in coming to a decision about the new job possibility. Treat this one carefully; I'd say try to make sure your W feels like you value her input on this one.

Jen

TM, Jen brought out a lot of good points that you need to consider. I would also like to point out that during dating, BOTH tend to put on their best 'masks' to impress the other. Since a person can only wear a 'mask' for so long, when is s/he going to see the real face of their lover? When s/he sees them 24/7. If you two separate, how are the two of you going to know if what you see, during your dating, are the real yous?

Your W's mind is definetely foggy if she beleives that divorce will be the better alternative. Loneliness and financial hardship are often biproducts of it. And the likelihood of you wanting to remarry her in the future will be very slim at best.

My wife has also said that she would like to divorce and start all over again with a wedding and the whole thing

I believe I do understand it. I believe this M was so hard on her emotionally that she wants it to end before she starts again. She wants complete closure. Everything you quote her on supports this.

You have probably already covered this with her, but it may be worth another try. Ask her: "If I have changed, if I am a different man, If I really could make you happy, what would it take to show you?"

People can change. The story of Paul in the new testment is a good example. He went about trying to put Christians in jail or have them killed and then saw a vision and it changed his life. How can you get across to her that you have had one of your own? Think on it some more.

SS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"To answer your question, NO I would not date someone like my wife if I did not already know her. In fact, I would RUN from someone that acted as she has in the recent past."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And here lies the danger in her faulty beleif that you would want to have anything to do with her after you two get divorced.

It is said that plan B has a likely chance of succeeding if the WS last experiences of the BS are good ones. What are your the last experiences going to be of her, that could possibly make you want to continue having her in your life after a divorce?

<small>[ May 05, 2003, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

What is the OM going to think if you two are seperated?

What is the OM going to perceive if you two are seperated?

What is the OM going to do if you two are seperated?

What is your WS going to do if the OM approaches her in her new found freedom of seperation.

Seperation is freedom, in the very least, its freedom to be alone. Someone that wants freedom to be alone, doesn't want to be alone for long.

I don't buy the 'lets seperate, to date' plan.

I see it more as lets seperate, so you think were dating, while I'm with OM/OP, behind your back, helping you to 'date' other girls to see if I'm the one you want, so I can show in court that YOU didn't value our vows either, and file for divorce.'

She wants you to date other people so that she can trust you? Bullbisquits. I see here letting you down gently, with the FU FU FU and still seeing the OP/OM on the side.

Snooped lately? Maybe you should.

My ex-fiance (or whatever the hell I should call him) have been "dating" once a week. Although it actually took a month before he could afford to take me out someplace besides fast food!

I see-saw back and forth on it. Sometimes I regret it, because although he isn't seeing anyone else, he is having his cake (seeing me) and eating it too (living alone). But it is also a good thing, because I think he is starting to realize he may have made a mistake by leaving. When I stopped calling him, he actually got "lonely" and called me...and asked me to call him. (I said nope...you call me when you want to do something...you know where I am. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

I see no problem with dating your spouse. It’s a great way to get the sparks going and to maintain it. It’s some thing often neglected in marriage.

But I do see a problem with moving out. From all I’ve read, once a couple moves apart, no matter the intent the chance of martial recovery is slim.

You could do the same thing living together so there is something ‘not right’ about what she is suggesting. She will be lone most of the time. So it seems that her plan is really to be without you. Sorry if that sounds harsh, it’s the way I see it.

One reason she may suggest that you date others is that, once you do, she can feel better about herself. This is a not potato. Not wise at all. Seeing others will only lead to problems. And what do you tell others you date? “Oh, I just want to go out with you to see if I still like my wife? What woman in her right mind would allow herself to be used in this manner?

There is a lot about this in the book “I Love You, Let’s Work It Out” by David Viscott. In the book he tells of all sorts of ploys used by spouses to get the other to cheat. It then clears their conscience and they can move on with their life… after all, if you do date another women you obviously did not love her.

<small>[ June 05, 2003, 03:17 AM: Message edited by: Eleonora ]</small>

Thanks everyone, I appreciate the responses more than you know. Unfortunately I only have a few minutes, and not enough time to respond. Just wanted to let everyone know that I am reading (when I can) and will respond to your questions at the first opportunity.

Many of you are keeping me grounded on this whole issue, and I do appreciate it. Quick update, we're getting along great, those are her words. She's not sure if she's going to be able to move out the end of May now, financially speaking. We have our ups and downs, but more ups than downs.

Thanks again, and God Bless.

Hi TM,
This is off topic but I wanted to say a little bit about her moving out.

I don't know how you go about talking to her when you discuss this, but balance is really needed here. If you tell her it's "a bad idea" to move or use words that she will hear as a judgement she will want to move all the more.

If you use words like: " I will be hurt and sad if you move but as you know, you are free to choose," then it should not be a negative thing for her - and her ego doesn't fight it so much.

I like the delay, the more time you get, the more chance you have. Just be careful how you say things.

Have you ever quit the smokes?
How are you doing on the other "self improvement" things you have been working on?

Hope my memory serves me correctly today, sometimes I get things mixed up.

SS

Following up on SS's post, here's another one for you to ponder: "You are,and always have been, free to make your own choices in life as well as responsible in dealing with the consequences they may bring"

SS/2MCM,
I think I've got the verbage down pretty good, after all it's been over 5 months now. Seems unbelievable, I never thought I could make it this long.

Now it looks like she won't be moving out the end of the month. She quit 1 of her jobs, looking for another, but can't financially handle it on what she's making now.

SS, Still smoking.. some day's more, some days less. As for the other stuff, I think I'm doing pretty good. Many changes have been permanent and I never want to go back. Some of the things I tried to change just didn't work and I've slipped back a little. But, I've had 5 months to work the bugs out of this and I think I'm doing fairly well.

More next week, I promise. This is my last week of running frantically around with no head and no end in sight.

Take care and God Bless.