Thanks 2long and hope4future!

Well, after my meeting with my lawyer yesterday, things are rolling. She's writing up the divorce papers along with some other necessary papers to get things moving. The next time I meet with her I get to go over all the documents before we actually file them and serve my H.

He can live his life controlling other people, using guilt to manipulate them to do what he wishes, and treating everyone as though they are inferior to him. I don't want to be married to a person like that anymore.

I do honestly hope that he wakes up at some point and starts treating the people around him better.

A funny thing he told me this week...keep in mind he is a teacher, an award-winning one at that...a parent came in to meet with him and the first thing the parent said was, "What the heck is going on in your personal life that's causing you to be such a jerk with the kids? None of the students like you anymore and they used to love you." Granted, it's completely inappropriate for a parent to say such a thing to their child's teacher, but it's obvious his negativity is even coming across loud and clear to his students. I also look at that and think, see, when I was in his life, he was a happier and better person and a better teacher too because of it. But, of course, I am not forgetting that I am in part responsible for causing him the emotional pain that have led to some of the changes in his personality and behaviour.

So I'm glad to have a sense of where things are going finally. No more living under an umbrella of guilt and control. No more limbo! Divorce it is. Life goes on. YAY!

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ June 07, 2003, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

It will feel good for a while, like you're finally going to be free to move on. But be prepared for it to feel horrible too. I was absolutely SURE I wanted a divorce...it was only a matter of getting the money together...yet when the reality of all of it sunk in it felt really awful.

Also prepare yourself for his wrath. He's in desperate desire of blaming someone else for all of his woes right now. He's a majorly hurting unit and he's turning that pain in to fury. Whether or not he's threatend divorce, and whether or not he's assured you he'll sign...you just took another step at independance and he's going to rage about that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong> Where we're at is the only way he's comfortable building this relationship is through me coming over when he wants to spend the night, so he can "reconnect" to me as he said. The only way I 'm comfortable building this relationship is if we can spend some quiet time together in a non-sexual way. So we're both stuck. We both acknowledged that we care about each other and would like to try making this work, </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I have read this thread all the way through, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> but have never read any of your other posts, so, if I'm waaaay off, just ignore me!

Your comments above remind me of something I've heard often from male BS's. See, when a man is betrayed, he tends to want to "take back" what was his (HIS W, since he feels HIS sexual exclusivity with her has been compromised). Guys? Do I have that right?

I DON"T KNOW ANYTHING about your H, your relationship prior to this A, so I might be barking totally up the wrong tree, OK? But it seems to me that by continually asking you for SF, he's just trying to take back what he feels BELONGS TO HIM, and has been stolen from him. Yeah, he's angry, I understand that, but doesn't he have reason?

I know, I know, NO ONE "owns" another human being, but you all know what I mean!! HIS M, HIS W.....

It does sound like you two are caught in a tug of war, tho, and I suspect that was a large part of your M.....hmmm, maybe part of the reason you strayed? Tired of the constant push, pull?

I agree with Bramble here....neither of you is sounding like you're ready to div.....it sounds more like you two just LIKE pushing each others' buttons.

If you want to save your M, I believe it can be done (start following MB principles). If not, well then, you're well on your way to ending it.

Good luck.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>A funny thing he told me this week...keep in mind he is a teacher, an award-winning one at that...a parent came in to meet with him and the first thing the parent said was, "What the heck is going on in your personal life that's causing you to be such a jerk with the kids? None of the students like you anymore and they used to love you." Granted, it's completely inappropriate for a parent to say such a thing to their child's teacher, but it's obvious his negativity is even coming across loud and clear to his students.
Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen,
a little off topic, but while I would agree that the approach was bad, I think what that parent said to your H is absolutely appropriate. If something is going with a teacher that I have a concern about, it's my duty as a parent to look into it. And if I think there is a problem worth bringing up, I owe it to the teacher to go to him first before I go to the principle. So again, I don't like the approach, but the message was perfectly appropriate.

What was your H's reaction? Do you think it made him think about how he has been lately?
Michael

If he was an award-winning teacher and the students loved him, how does that square with Jen's portrayal of him? Something's wrong ...

Michael, my H's reaction was to matter of factly tell the parent that his personal life was not up for discussion, and simply focused on the student during the conference. I agree that a parent should always make any concern they have with a teacher clear to that teacher first before going to the principal. My H's feelings about that parent's comments when he told me about it was that my infidelity and his father's death have caused him to change as he has.

Tmmx, a controlling personality, combined with the ability to emotionally manipulate people is very effective in the classroom. A person's ability to excel in their career doesn't necessarily make them highly skilled in their personal lives. But, of course, I have been presenting things from my perspective, so there's a natural bias that I acknowledge. Although, many times I have included direct quotes in my threads from my H so as to attempt to give his perspective. Also, something to note is the fact that one of his close female friends/colleagues nominated him for that award. Oh, and remember, I loved the man I was married to before all this affair mess. I could've lived without his KISA based friendships with two female colleagues, but I loved him. I made the wrong choice to cheat on him. It's who he's become since I cheated on him that I find really difficult to take.

After spending many hours today with quite a variety of people, I was reminded of the fact that I have been one half of a partnership for so long, that I sometimes feel like I don't have a strong individual personality. I guess that's something I'll be developing more and more as time goes on.

Oh yeah, I was talking with a couple of friends I hadn't seen in a while, and was explaining how my H seems to be so motivated by control, and they said they saw his controlling nature with me during our "happy" times together, but never would've said anything about it unless I noticed it too.

You know what silly thing I can't stop wondering about now? I need to find a way to persuade my H to let me take all of our photo albums (we're talking 12 years worth of events with family and friends) for a while so I can scan most of the photos or something. We are real shutterbugs, there must be over 20 photo albums, the big kind that take 10 or 12 rolls of film each; that's a lot of pictures! But if I ask to borrow the albums, he'll know I'm filing for Dv, why else would I ask for them? I just feel sick inside imagining that I may not get to have access to those photos ever again. (Yes, I know my H must've felt sick inside too when he found out I was cheating on him.) Any ideas what to do about persuading him to let me have access to our pictures? Once I file for Dv and he gets the letter my lawyer is writing to him,I figure there's a good chance he'll refuse to ever talk to me again, so I need to act now to get the pictures....

Jen

Jen Brown,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Any ideas what to do about persuading him to let me have access to our pictures? Once I file for Dv and he gets the letter my lawyer is writing to him,I figure there's a good chance he'll refuse to ever talk to me again, so I need to act now to get the pictures....
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You might not want to have those pictures, as you are not ready to move on those pictures would slow your recovery. If you still want it, you could ask your lawyer to put it as part of your pettition to the court to have them copied. IMVHO, you are not ready to Dv. You should plan B and give time for you to heal.

-rh-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>Michael, my H's reaction was to matter of factly tell the parent that his personal life was not up for discussion, and simply focused on the student during the conference

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen,
agreed, his personal life is off limits, but the result of his personal life....the way he treats his students, is very much the parents business. As I said, I disagreed with the approach, but not the intent (or rather what should have been the intent).
Michael

All this controversy over my BIL's friend who was in an accident is taking its toll. In short, he threw himself out of a car while the exGF of my youngest BIL was driving. (However, no one in my inlaws family knows that she is his EXGF, they broke up in April and he told no one, I only just found out they had broken up). The way the family is taking it is that she was cheating on my youngest BIL with the friend who jumped out of the car, and now b/c of this accident, their "affair" is out in the open. My MIL remarked to my good friend yesterday that "Jennifer and Susan (the exFG) have done so much damage to this family already, we can't take anymore. What did we do to deserve all of this?" Blah blah blah.

Redhat, whether I'm ready for divorce or not, there is no saving a marriage with a man from that family. They are all about making out everyone but themselves to be evil and horrible and destructive to them. They've lost their father, I've been horrible to them, and now supposedly so has the exGF of my youngest BIL. Everyone's out to get them, it's all about them, and there's no sense or clue that I have feelings too, or that the exGF has feelings too.

I'm not trying to diminish the pain that they've gone through in the past year. It's enormous and I recognize that. But there's no real forgiveness there, even if I thought I had imagined it. The resentment they harbour towards me is huge, and so is the resentment my H has towards me.

That resentment combined with the controlling and emotionally manipulative personality of my H means I can't stay married to him, and won't.

Stupid me, I thought that my MIL had really forgiven me, she pretty much said so, I thought that my BIL's had forgiven me, they treated me well enough when I saw them, but it's not the case. It hurts, because I did and do love them all very much. It hurts a lot.

If anyone is considering an affair or is in the midst of one and is reading this, you have no idea how much pain you are causing others, and how much pain you are causing for yourself down the road. I'll always have to live with the black mark of having cheated on my H, and ending my marriage because of it. I'll never be able to hold my head quite as high as the rest of the world out there.

Sorry if this sounds like a personal pity party, but I needed to vent. Normally I'd vent to the friend that my MIL vented to, but she's pretty upset herself.

Jen <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Oh yeah, about the photo albums, I was thinking of emailing or saying the following to my H:

You know what H, you have too much anger and resentment towards me, as does your family, and so it's just time to give up and move on with our lives. I really wish things had never come to this, and I am sincerely sorry for my selfish actions that led to so much pain. Before we get rolling on things like divorce papers, can I please take our photo albums for a couple of weeks so I can scan them and have my own copies of the last 12 years? There are pictures in there of us, of family and of friends, so I hope you can imagine why I would like copies.

Maybe I should just show up there again and say it, b/c he IGNORES emails and I doubt he'll answer my calls anymore.

Actually, I think I'm going to go over there tonight and take my dad with me. He won't be able to go right back to his "want to have sex?" crap with my dad there, and I'll be less likely to go off about things with my dad there too.

If only I could turn back time, I would. The pain of this never really will go away, I'm sure.

Dammit I wish I could stop crying, and stop letting him or his family make me feel so horrible. I'm still a worthwhile person even if they don't think so.

Jen <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ June 08, 2003, 12:07 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Jen,
Don't send him that email or anything like it if you want your photo albums. Pleasantly get them because i am afraid if you make him mad and he knows you want them bad enough he will destroy them or throw them away. I would either get it put in your divorce papers, or take your dad with you to get them, or have your dad go by himself to get them. I am sorry you feel so bad but you ARE worthwhile.

I have to say again...I really don't think you are ready to divorce.

For one thing you remind me enourmously of me in the last 6 months of our situation. You're on the brink of "getting it", but still teetering and using justification and blaming others to jump back to your comfort zone.

Jen, his family didn't say anything directly about you. They're entitled to their own reaction about this other situation. You're assumptions about how they feel about you is just that, assumptions. I used to feel a lot of the same feelings about my in laws. But I don't live my life that way anymore.

They aren't making you feel bad...you are choosing to take assumptions about how they think or feel and make them personal.

Also, I have to say I did the same thing you're doing with your friends. I went all through my dirty laundry list of issues I had with my hubby, and they agreed completely with me. And some of it was true. He wasn't perfect, he made huge mistakes, he had taken us for granted etc.. etc... The part my friends and I didn't get was the extent to which I'd added to the problems and that my H and I were both in need of, and capable of, change and growth.

I worry that you will rush forth with this divorce, propelling yourself as the victim all the way to all that will listen, and then when you are "in the right" and legally free, you'll jump right on the bandwagon to find someone new and not take any time to get some space and some perspective. That's why I so desperatly wanted to see you try Plan B. It's a time of healing and a time of growth. I see you aren't going to do that, but please consider VERY STRONGLY taking atleast 6 months off after your divorce is final to just live life without looking for someone new to fill that void. The person you need to find and get aquainted with is the one you live with every day of your life.

Some of the best "wake up" advice I got was when I was having my own pity party...when my H was moving on and the divorce was almost final...this person told me quite harshly that I made my own bed and to quit feeling sorry for myself. I started in with my list of grievances...my PROOF of why it was ok to divorce my H...and they told me to cut the crap...and sarcastically pointed out how easy I must have been to live with and how wonderful a wife I truly was. Basically they poked holes in all my well polished justifications. I went to bed lurid...and woke up...well, I just woke up I guess. I wasn't a perfect spouse either...and I added to the mess...and if I were capable of change then so was he.

And we have. But we broke the cycle. You still haven't.

I'm truly rooting for you Jen. I just hope you don't wind up getting everything you think you want, and then find out it's not at all what you thought it was. Take care.

Jen, I have 1 question for you.
What is a divorce going to do? You didn't even stick to Plan B, so what makes you think that just because you have a piece of paper that says "DIVORCED" that you are going to stop this destructive pattern you both do with each other. He calls or comes by, you answer, hoping yet again, that something will have changed, it doesn't then you scream DIVORCE!
You don't get it as much as your H doesn't get it. You want a quick fix and by your pattern, it is obvious that you saying I FILED SO I WON,YOU ARE GOING TO BE IN CONTROL ANYMORE isn't going to get it. Your divorce isn't going to stop the rollar coaster you both do, the only thing that will be different is that you have that LEGAL DOCUMENT! JMO

I have no desire to start dating anytime soon, 6 months is even too soon for me I'd say. I want to get to know myself first, thank you very much.

I simply do NOT want to be married to him anymore;I DON'T want to live the rest of my life with him.

Divorce would mean NO MORE CONTACT at all. I would never answer his calls or let him into my place or go to his. It would be an end to it all. Fresh start.

Plan B has the intent of waking the spouse up in order to save the M. That's no longer my intent.

I want out of the madness. I suppose it's not exactly appropriate to keep posting on a marriage building website when I want to end things. It's just that this place has been a huge source of support and help for me over the past year. I should just move over to the D/D board I suppose.

The tears have certainly stopped. The anger is creeping back in. Lord give me a sense of peace instead please.

Jen

Hi Jen - you must be tired of my comments by now, but since there has been one whole year with no change, I do agree that it's time for divorce. Some of the other posters have a point, and you may regret it, but it's been a whole year with no change. Six months is the lower guideline for plan B; maybe yours was not perfect, but you do the best you can. I also agree that in any future meetings, it would be very helpful to include your dad or some other third party.

I understand you want this divorce in order to break free. You also seem hyper-sensitive to any mention of the affair by your inlaws or others. You have no kids. I repeat the suggestion that you keep this process simple. My family knew or guessed about my wife's affairs, but the real damage was done by her behavior and statements during our separation. A contested divorce gets bitter. I just can't see how you could have enough at stake to justify a contested divorce.

Also, if it's feasible for you to relocate after this divorce, maybe that would help you start over. Again, you have a lot more flexibility than most people on this board.

- Tom

Jen
about the pictures. they are part of your life.
YOUR HISTORY tell him it is like a document of your life..because it is in pictures.

I got mine and am giving them to my daughter because they are to painful to me..the only ones I care to keep are my grandchildren and my childrens pics and some scenery..

I cannot stand to look at pictures of us together because when I look at them I can tell exactly what happend that week by the clothes I wore..
what we argued about etc..it triggers too many things..so think about it. IF you copy them it will make it more difficult. can you hire someone to copy them all on a disk for you? pay someone.
I am warning you, it won't be easy.

actually I think your making the right decision.
you don't need to be verbally abused..

I do believe people can raise their voice it is normal when we are angry but shouting is out and saying destructive thing are out..there is a way to exchange viewpoints without fighting not pushing or shoving or hitting etc..when it reaches that level your life is at stake.

I am sorry to hear about your Bil I hope he will be ok..keep us posted..it seems like they have some warped personalities..perhaps due to trama in their life or whatever...

I pray you get on with your life and look back..
perhaps it was a gift you have no children to
have to worry about right now, you can really
close the book so to speak. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

God bless you Keep on Keeping on...

here is something for you on forgiveness I got from a minister 4 years ago..helped me immensly.

oh and my e-mail is..

earthangel@telcomplus.net

Forgiving Yourself and Others

Forgiveness is not an emotion: it is a choice.

The choice doesn't change your feelings any more than your feelings nullify the choice.

Making the choice is not the destination. It is only the beginning of the journey toward healing.

Forgiveness does not undo the damage.

It does not sweep the conduct of the consequences under the rug where they will trip you up later.

If you want to truly forgive, you must truly deal with your feelings.

Acknowledge the anger, the hurt, the guilt, the shame.
But because your feelings will change daily, you must choose to anchor yourself in God's Word that never changes.

Forgiveness is a product of God's mercy.
You may not feel you deserve to be forgiven; however, forgiveness is a free gift from God based on the shed blood of Jesus Christ at Calvary.

Just as you did nothing to earn the forgiveness that leads to salvation, you can do nothing to earn forgiveness for your sin now.

You must choose to accept God's forgiveness and you must choose to forgive yourself. God's Word exhorts you to do so (Ephesians 4:31-32).

Forgiveness is a command.

God never commands us to do something without providing the resources for us to obey Him.

It is impossible to obey the command to forgive without relying on God's forgiveness to enable you.

Jesus said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" (Matthew 19:26).

In time He will enable you, through the power of His Holy Spirit, to completely forgive yourself and anyone else who may have played a part in your sin(Philippians 2:13).

If you will allow Him, God will work in you to free you from the bondage of guilt, grief and shame.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Forget the former things: do not dwell on the past. See I am doing a new thing. Isaiah 43-19 </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope I have enlightened you some and I hope you will draw close to God because when you do HE promises to draw you close to Himself.

I also hope you find the peace and God fills your life with people who will love you for the real person you are becoming:) Keep on Keeping on.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thanks tmmx for noticing that it's been a whole year with no positive changes. I sometimes feel like people forget that. If nothing much has improved in that great expanse of time, I can't foresee it changing.

"You also seem hyper-sensitive to any mention of the affair by your inlaws or others." Well, the way I view myself is by no means as "the whore of the family", I've always taken great pride in living a good life that is respectable and admirable. It sucks bigtime that I've been reduced to two nights of behaviour in their eyes. I was very close to my inlaws for 12 years, and it hurts to hear them reduce me to my mistake.

"My family knew or guessed about my wife's affairs, but the real damage was done by her behavior and statements during our separation." I was thinking about family in general today. My H's family has been tainted against me forever, and my family has got a negative perspective on my H that they'll never be able to forget either. That's a HUGE uphill battle that I doubt we'd be able to climb even if we both wanted to work to save this marriage and treat each other lovingly again.

"A contested divorce gets bitter. I just can't see how you could have enough at stake to justify a contested divorce." Well, in short, my H wants to shortchange me on the house equity by about $10 000. That, and there's the fact that I got one vehicle and he got three (car, camper, motorbike), so he owes me a few thousand there too. It's a significant sum of money in my mind.

Well, I don't intend to move to another city, but I do intend to live in another part of the city. That's a start at least.

Thanks sadeyes for the thoughtful and encouraging post. I am so thankful for God's forgiving nature. Thank you for your prayers too.

Jen

<small>[ June 08, 2003, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Jen, for what it's worth, I think you're making your decision for the right reasons. I've only been active on the boards for about two months, but even in that short amount of time, I've watched you become a much stronger person. You seem to value yourself more and you are less willing to put up with abuse. I can't pretend to know how difficult your choice is, but from my vantage point, you are holding your own admirably.

I get the sense that you have a lot to offer your friends and family, and they are lucky to have you.

I know better days are in store for you. Stay strong.

I was thinking about family in general today. My H's family has been tainted against me forever, and my family has got a negative perspective on my H that they'll never be able to forget either. That's a HUGE uphill battle that I doubt we'd be able to climb even if we both wanted to work to save this marriage and treat each other lovingly again.

I think you would be able to climb the uphill battle......if you both wanted it. But no progress has been done between you two, so no progress can be made anywhere.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>Plan B has the intent of waking the spouse up in order to save the M. That's no longer my intent.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In Plan B, BS should already accept that Dv might be the final result ... by then the chances of saving M is almost deminishing. You do plan B for you ... so that you could look back ten years from now and have no regret. Your feeling (LB$) at all time low is cause by you staying too long in plan A (2x4).

JMHO-rh-