[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jen Brown:
[QB]
After all of that, we sat and watched tv for a while, with minimal conversation. As I predicted, he eventually started trying to persuade me to go up to the bedroom to have sex. I refused. I even tried going upstairs and sitting on the bed hoping to get him to talk some more but he refused as soon as he realized I wouldn't undress.

He started playing some music on his computer, and kept telling me to go upstairs and get naked or leave.

MAEPLUS:
Ok... I've been following your posts for months, even before I ever decided to register. What you are going through is killing me. When I read the above, I thought I was going to pass out. You see, I was in a similar situation with an Xfiance. I, too, continued to say no due to the fact we were married yet, as well as his increasingly hideous behavior. I stuck around out of fear of what he would do if I cut him out of my life. Then, the fateful day when I, too, went to his room in hopes he would listen to me. I started out in a chair, he seemed to be listening and I was stupidly encouraged by that. He motioned for me to come over on the bed and I actually thought that it was to hug me because he'd finally realized what I was saying...

Jen... I'm going to get very personal here and type something I've never talked about with strangers. But, the more I read about his treatment of you, the more I see you jumping at any little thing thinking it's progress, the more I say to myself that I HAVE to tell you this.

He didn't want to hug me. He nearly killed me <choking>. He raped me. He kept saying, "I'M SO SICK OF YOU SAYING NO." He was <and I'm sure still is> so much like what you describe your H to be like. The similarities are chilling. And, finally, he did snap in the way that at least one other poster has expressed concern about.

Please don't place yourself in another dangerous situation again. You're scaring me!

As for the fact that he used to be someone you loved.... think of it this way: "Adversity doesn't build character, it reveals it."

He got slapped with some hard times. Fine! Deal with it. And guess what, I've had harder!! WAY more than what he's gone through. And yet, I never treated anyone as he has you. Yes, some people do take a long time to recover and get that wonderful marriage. But, I seriously doubt one of them is dealing with the hideous crap you've dealt with.

"get naked or leave." What?! His degradation of you is appalling. And yes, I realize you had a brief fling. And you've done all you can to sort that out. HE has not.

What amazes me about this board is how on your threads, people have gone on to you about your responsibility in this and how you were the one who cheated <initially, physically>. And on other threads, the non-cheater is gone on to about THEIR reponsibility in the affair as if the formula changes somehow. I don't get that. Just like the responder who told the poster that she had already cheated on her husband just because she had admitted she has feelings for her trainer, who knows nothing of her feelings.

What is my point... well, just that it's been upsetting to read some of the responses to you. I think you should end this mess now and your recent posts seem to indicate that you finally want to do that.

That one post about taking back his property really gutted me. How awful!! That's no excuse and seriously degrading.

Yes, take your dad and get the photos. Just tell him that you want copies for your house, too. Why would you have to say anything else? Stop feeling like you have to explain yourself to him all the time. I'm sorry to say it, but be really doesn't care, Jen. I've been there. He won't change, just as his mother said. Because this has always been there in him!! Just waiting for an excuse to come out!! <speaking from experience.>

And, there's nothing wrong with talking to your friends about this. And I'm sure there are MANY others who noticed the controlling issues a long time ago -- probably even strangers!! I'm serious. Happened to me. Your stuff sounds so chillingly familiar.

Sorry to be so long. Just really concerned for your safety.

~Mae

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>I'll always have to live with the black mark of having cheated on my H, and ending my marriage because of it. I'll never be able to hold my head quite as high as the rest of the world out there.

Jen <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen,
how high you hold your head is up to you. Have you learned from this? Will you make this mistake again? Or have you grown because of this and will it make you a better person in the future.

I don't think we judge people so much by their mistakes, but from how they react to them. The choice going forward is yours.
Michael

<small>[ June 09, 2003, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: MichaelinDallas ]</small>

Well, I went over there with my dad, and it seemed no one was home. Or maybe he was hiding inside, who knows. I was even very careful to show up in my car, not dad's, and have dad stand beyond the vision of the peep hole etc. Funny thing, I wasn't home for a while after that and I came home to a message on the phone from my H, it was the phone number of someone I work with who had tried to get ahold of me at the house. Short to the point message, name, number that's it. Now ma and pa are out of town for a week or so, so if I go try again, I have to decide whether to take a friend with me or not. He'll likely be quite ticked off that I'd be showing up with someone, but oh well, safety and comfort first.

rh: "Your feeling (LB$) at all time low is cause by you staying too long in plan A (2x4)." You definitely win the MB award for being the most succinct and to the point! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> True, maybe I did stay in plan A for too long. But that's the past, and 'tis over and done with.

maeplus, I want to sincerely thank you for sharing your own painful past with such openess and honesty, with such concern for me. He hasn't gotten physically abusive with me yet, but there've been a couple of moments when I felt like he almost didn't trust himself so he walked away.

"What amazes me about this board is how on your threads, people have gone on to you about your responsibility in this and how you were the one who cheated <initially, physically>. And on other threads, the non-cheater is gone on to about THEIR reponsibility in the affair as if the formula changes somehow. I don't get that." You know, I guess you're right, a very good number of posts do tend to go that way.

"What is my point... well, just that it's been upsetting to read some of the responses to you. I think you should end this mess now and your recent posts seem to indicate that you finally want to do that. " Thanks for the vote of confidance. I was pretty steamed at some of the responses I got on the weekend that leaned towards "don't give up yet," but tried to just let them slide. I am so done with my H. I can't even begin to fathom what it would take for me to reconsider, it's so far out of my mind.

"I don't think we judge people so much by their mistakes, but from how they react to them. " Thanks Michael, I try to remind myself of that too.

Now I'm worried he is going to call me a bunch of times later tonight since he has already called here once with that message and is probably wondering where I was. Hopefully he doesn't bother calling, b/c I don't feel like or even think I should pick up. Really, I'm not going to worry about it. I've got things to do!

I did some math....if we filled about (at least) one big photo album a year, that's the kind that held about 10 rolls of 24 exposure film, and we've been snapping pictures for 12 years....that alone is nearly 3000 photos I have to sort through and decide whether to scan them or not. To scan 3000 pictures multiplied by at least one minute each is something nuts like 50 hours (or 6 or 7 full days of 7-8 hours scanning each), yikes! Anyone got any suggestions as to how to reduce the workload, for a reasonable price?

Jen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>Anyone got any suggestions as to how to reduce the workload, for a reasonable price?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Go through all of the photos. Take pics of just you and your family and friends, and keep them. The pics of just H and his family and friends, let him have them, but scan some that you like. And then, pics of BOTH of you, divvy them up. Keep 1/2, scan the other 1/2. If you end up with some pics that he wants at a later date, then let him ask for a copy! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

That's it for suggestions from me today. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I hope you're able to get the albums soon... and yes, bringing someone with you is the best strategy.

Karen

I just had a fairly lengthy and calm conversation with my H (he had called to pass on another phone message). He keeps telling me how if I wasn't friends with his brother's exGF, that I wouldn't be making all the mistakes I'm making, aka I wouldn't be refusing his invites to come over for sleepovers and sex. He repeated how he thinks he should get to call all the shots since he was the one that got burned. He repeated how since we're separated he doesn't have to tell me anything or answer any of my questions. He repeated how I'll regret this one day, the fact that I'm refusing to go over and spend the night with him. He invited me again of course.

I was looking through some photos I have of him because I need one to give to my lawyer to serve him with divorce papers, and found some that just make me sad, b/c they are pictures of such happy times we had together.

He kept asking me about why I wouldn't come over, and so I kept asking him why he won't spend time with me other than privately and sexually. He refused to answer that.

He kept saying how he doesn't spend time with anyone whenever I commented that I'm sad that I'm not good enough to spend social time with. I reminded him that I know he spent the past few weekends away camping with his brothers, and that on at least one of those weekends he had one of his female friends with him. He'll barely talk about them.

I told him how I can see how they are a source of emotional support for him (even if he claims not to talk to them or anyone about "anything"), and I can see how they probably feel that they are just being good friends to him, but that just by being there for him, it's meant he's less likely to need me, or want me back.

He acknowledged that a huge part of what makes him hesitant to try getting back together is how his family views me now, and how he feels as though my parents hate him now (even though I've tried to tell them they don't, but really they are filled with negative feelings).

I asked about coming over tomorrow to get photo albums. He asked why. I said because there are some pictures in there that I want because they are of me and my family, and there are others I want copies of . He said why would I want copies of pictures of "us" and him, for my grandkids? To show my next husband? I said well, if I do end up with someone else, you (my H) have been an important part of my life for a 1/3 of my life, so yes I'd show them to whoever I may end up with, it's part of my history.

He asked me if I'm going to sue him for all he's got. He reminded me how he has none of his friends anymore and how alone he is. He asked if he should give his money away to charity. He joked that maybe he should give it all to me and start from scratch. I didn't tell him that I'm planning to file Dv papers next week. I hate being dishonest with him again. I haven't been since last year during the affair. Here I am getting ready to hurt him again by filing for Dv.

He said so many times how I'm really going to regret my choices someday.

He repeated how he has tried to be so nice to me, like the last time I was over there he thinks he was nice to me for two hours, that we had fun, and doesn't understand why I left.

I reminded him that asking me repeatedly "go get naked or go home" was not my idea of fun, and that it hurts that that is all he really wants from me.

I asked him if he's told his mother that all our relationship consists of is sex and some conversations on the phone. He retorted with, "have you told your dad that? no? so there's your answer."

He hates my good friend who is his brother's exGF. (Not the brother who's GF was with the guy in the car accident, this is the ex of his older brother.) He is convinced that my friendship with her is the big reason why I've changed so much, why I'm so callous, and so much "little miss independant." He says, "oh I know what she says to you about me, that I'm only interested in using you for sex, and that I'm controlling, etc." I couldn't really respond to that one b/c that is what she's said, and what many of you folks have said.

I can hear in his voice how much he hurts too. I realize how much I've done to turn his life upside down. But as I pointed out to him, he asked me to move out. He chose to distance himself from his friends.

We ended the call with actual "well I guess there isn't much else to talk about" and "goodbye" as opposed to hanging up on each other.

He still only wants sex from me, he still hates my best friend, he still wants to have the 2 female friends in his life, he still wants his privacy, he still refuses to go for counselling. He still insists that I'm the one giving up on this M. He no longer believes me when I tell him I really just wish we could work things out, he tells me that no I don't.

It's just so sad again tonight. I feel like divorce and moving on is really the only option. I mean, my choices are a) secret sexual rendez-vous with my husband and nothing more, or b) divorce and starting over.

Yuck.

Oh, I got the usual phone call back. He asked how much nicer do I expect him to get? He said I was still welcome to go over there, but if I go to call first. He said he won't get any nicer than this, this is as nice as he gets. I repeated how I just really wish he was willing to spend some non-sexual time together. Of course he said a couple of times that if I don't accept his invite tonight that he may not ever invite me again, or won't likely invite me many more times. What's funny is that I asked him what he thought the odds were that I would come over, and he said 2 percent, so he knows how very unlikely it is I'd go there. Why would he keep asking? Is this him doing all that he can do (in his mind) to save this M?

A really sick part of me is considering going over there for one for the road, or just to feel his arms around me again to help me decide what to do. What the he** is wrong with me???

I know he is really working his emotional manipulation and guilt magic here. I also hear myself saying "he, he, he" over and over, focusing way too much on him as some of you would likely point out. But I still am slightly tempted and torn.

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ June 10, 2003, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Ah, I'm not stupid enough to go over there. I don't want to be there. I don't feel good when I'm there. I feel like I'm betraying myself somehow.

I just really hate that I have to file for Dv and hurt him again and/or do one more thing that he can say forever "look at how callous she is, how foolish she is, how ______ she is, first she cheats on me, then she files for Dv against me and tries to take all my money." I hate that I couldn't be honest with him on the phone when he asked if I was suing him. "I'm not suing you, but I'm filing for Dv" would've been the truth....

Sorry for the long vent tonight. If any of you understand me better than myself, let me know.

Jen

have you ever watched a cat with a mouse?

you are that mouse he is the cat and when he is done playing with you..he is going to pull you apart and just leave you.

he does not care..what he thinks is caring is
taking you sexually and knowing he won because you gave into him..it is a game with him.

please stay safe don't trust him..how can you even think of going there without someone else.that is sheer stupidity on your part.

you don't need one last roll in the hay..
maybe he will see you are a lady, that you do respect yourself after all..that your not letting him manipulate you any more. stand firm, be strong
stay home take a bubble bath..lock the door first.
then go to bed..
pray alot asking God for strength..you are so close to the end..don't flub it now.all he will do is not make love to you he will F---you while you make love to him..don't give him that satisfaction of getting the last one in..keep your head about you.

you are a treasure do not let him have that...don't throw pearls to swine...
I think that came from someplace else...not me.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Take care and Keep on Keeping on..

actually I was going to post that you can get your pictures done cheap at the technical schools..where they teach how to do it..
also wait for some good sales to have em done..
or use Costco..

Jen,
I dont have much to say. You know my opinions on the matter and I don't think they will change. I only say this because I think you know that you ARE ready and that he IS harmful and that you have not had many positive things happen in the past year....it has gotten worse, not better, has it not? You are worth more than a roll in the hay, please DO NOT do that. I miss sex a lot, I know it is tempting to have someone hold you, "love" you (i put that in quotes because it isn't really love right now) and keep you feeling 'safe' (again, he isn't safe though) and 'warm'. It is a desire that is hard to break and it is hard to realize that it really isn't the best thing. I think you have this illusion that if you just do one more thing, say one more thing, be one more thing, something will change. I don't think it will. I have had that same illusion and I think things have only gone downhill- for both of us. Please take care of YOU tonight- please stay at home and just rest. Why dont' you get some much needed sleep or just relax and do something you enjoy? Sometimes I think we get so used to the drama that we don't know how to have a simple time for once.
Please be careful- and whoever bluntly put that it would be stupidity to go alone over there- well, I am sorry, but I tend to agree. Get your photos WITH someone- otherwise stay away from him. You know, as hard as it is, if you TRUST God, He WILL lead you in the right paths- if you have that TRUST in him, then if HE wants you and husband together, it will happen. Otherwise, you may have something more beautiful and exciting to come.
Gotta go to bed -so tired!

I can't stand this Jen so I will just have to give you some tough love. He does not care about you because he is an immature spoiled little boy and all he cares about is using you as a sex toy.
His attempts at manipulation are pathetic. It is interesting that he has chosen teaching as a profession. He is a manipulator and a selfish individual who is self-absorbed and will drag you down the same way he is dragging himself down. His conversations with you indicate a lack of any love toward you. He simply does not sound or convey the emotional ability to love as an adult.
In the future when you meet someone else who respects and loves you as an individual rather than a mere playtoy you will ask yourself what was I thinking. Do you want to have a relationship that makes you feel good about the other person and yourself? If the answer is yes then stop wasting your time with this selfish, narcissitic little man who has nothing but distain and disrespect for you. He will always be unhappy but you have a choice!

Thanks to both of you ladies. I just had a good long chat with my other best friend (the one I've had since we were teenagers), and I'm all calmed down and ready to just go to bed. She's going through a mess of relationship stuff right now too - so I got to be in the counselor role, which was good.

I don't want to be the mouse or be anything less than a woman who deserves respect and the best. I'm sticking to my plan (Dv).

Time for some much needed rest,

Jen

Jen, thank you for acknowledging my post to you.

Now, I'm confused about something. You said he told you to move out and you did. So, the house he is living in is both of yours? Your name is also on the title/deed? If so, then I don't understand why you don't just go over there <when he's not home to avoid a confrontation> and take what belongs to you and divide up what belongs to both of you (like the previous suggestion about how to divide up the pictures). It's not like HE is going to be fair about it.

AND, if it was the other way around and he had moved out, I believe completely that HE would go in to get his pictures (or whatever) because the house also belongs to him.

Is that house <where he lives> still on your drivers license? Well, even if not, you can still get a lock smith to open it up, if he has changed the locks, because you are half owner (if you are). I know this to be true because a friend of mine's husband did it to her - after she had changed the locks. It can work both ways, then.

I wouldn't be pussyfooting around him anymore. This last conversation proves that he will continue to treat you like CRAP because he feels he has a RIGHT to because you were the one who admitted to cheating. <i consider his so-called girl "friends" to be cheating, which he is STILL doing, ya know?!>

Somthing to think about.

And hey -- you most certainly CAN hold your head up high now. Adversity doesn't build character, it reveals it, remember? And this mess, and the way you've chosen to handle it and make amends, shows your lovely character.

And, of course your family is going to have negative feelings about him. DUH. Look at how he is treating you!

And, if he was in here moaning about you, more than one person would be going on at him about HIS responsibility in this and what he did/didn't do that led up to what you did.

AND, you were not dishonest with him when you didn't tell him about the divorce, Jen. When are you going to stop being worried about HIS comfort zone and start thinking about yours? You answered the question he asked. It was a stupid question at that because I'm SURE he knew the answer was no, you aren't going to sue him for everything he has, or whatever. He knows better than that about you. But, he also knows he is being horrible to you and he just doesn't care!

There. I think that's all I was concerned about... at the moment...

<small>[ June 11, 2003, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: maeplus ]</small>

I'm brand new to MB so I don't know your history. Hopefully, I can provide objective answers to your questions:

*** How would you respond to your FWS when he/she shows up out of the blue like this, with these intentions?
Since you arrived "out of the blue", I think he would have to be surprised and unprepared.

*** What would be going through your mind?
Perhaps he interprets your distance as indifference. When a betrayer has been deceptive in words and actions, it's hard for the faithful spouse to trust anything you do -- words or actions. (Even during the affair, my H would show me affection out of guilt. His level of affection with me was directly correlated to the level of indiscretion with the OW.)

*** What would be the first words out of your mouth?
I think I'd say, "If that's what you want..." (Today, I'm still not convinced that my H is really w/me 100%. I wonder if this is his best alternative for now.)

*** What sorts of questions would you be wanting to ask your FWS?
I wouldn't ask but I would wonder: 1) Does he think there's someone better out there for him? 2) Why doesn't this seem to bother you as much as it bothers me? (I keep thinking that I must have always been more committed/devoted/in love.)

*** Would you be able to talk about dividing your financial assets then and there?
It's hard to say. (When I think about our happy times, my heart aches in sadness that those days are over! When I think about the 5 months he was crazy about a co-worker, I can easily let go. But, now that the affair is supposedly over, things are very, very different. I don't trust him. I don't feel that magical "in love" feeling that I had for 10 years wit him. I wonder why he's with me. Am I the default? 2nd choice? It's an awful feeling. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> )

I hope this helps!!!

Well maeplus, he changed the locks right after I moved out. He didn't want psycho Jen coming in when he had his girlfriends over and ripping their hair out I guess. The house is in both our names, and if I really want to start a war, I can legally get the locks changed, but I'd rather just peacefully go there when he's home, get my pictures and go. Thanks for all of your kind and encouraging words again. They came at a time when I really needed to hear them!

Inspired, thanks for your objective answers to my original questions on this thread. Welcome to Marriage Builders! I'll try to give you my thoughts on your answers...

"Perhaps he interprets your distance as indifference. " Hmm....funny thing is I keep my distance b/c he has kept me at a distance, and b/c I've been told so many times that being a pest who won't leave him alone is unattractive anyway.

"Today, I'm still not convinced that my H is really w/me 100%. I wonder if this is his best alternative for now." Oh my, you sound like you are really hurting and doubting your H's love for you. I'm sorry to hear that.

"I wouldn't ask but I would wonder: 1) Does he think there's someone better out there for him? " You know, I HOPE there's someone better out there for me, I really do. Wait, I'm fairly sure there is probably someone better out there. But do take my answer with a grain of salt. It's based on how poorly my H has treated me in the past year since we've been separated.

"2) Why doesn't this seem to bother you as much as it bothers me? (I keep thinking that I must have always been more committed/devoted/in love.)" I think my H thinks he was more committed etc. too b/c I had an affair, but he seems to be the one that found it much easier to be without me since we've separated. He has said that he doesn't think I'm as upset about this mess as he is. That's not true, he hasn't seen me in my highly emotional state very often is all.

"But, now that the affair is supposedly over, things are very, very different. I don't trust him. I don't feel that magical "in love" feeling that I had for 10 years wit him. I wonder why he's with me. Am I the default? 2nd choice? It's an awful feeling. " Well, big kudos to you for at least trying to be with him still and trying to save your M. I wouldn't refer to yourself as the 2nd choice. You were his original choice, he married you, and he's chosen to stay with you. You've come to the right place to talk to other people about those kinds of feelings though, you're not alone. Perhaps start a thread of your own about this topic either here in General Questions, or over In Recovery.

BTW, I tried to call him so I could go over there tonight a couple of times, but he wasn't home, or refused to answer. So I think I'll just show up there again tomorrow. I have to get those pictures out before he gets served with Dv papers, or I may never see them again.

Jen

I still feel sick inside about filing for Dv.

I'm about to put an end to a 13 year relationship, drive the final nails into the coffin so to speak, the coffin that I opened up when I cheated on my H. I'm afraid. I'm afraid that I may be making the wrong decision. I'm afraid of how angry my H will be once he gets wind of this all.

I know I don't want to be with the man my H turned into, but my anxiousness and fear about this always comes back when I try to lie down and go to sleep at night. I'm back at the sleeping pills in order to just go to bed and go to sleep, instead of lying there and having my mind work overtime.

I even posted over on D/D to see if others have gone through this right before they file for Dv.

Even if I've got a mental list a mile long of reasons why filing for Dv is the right thing to do, I still wish I didn't have to do this. I wish none of this crap had ever happened and that I was still at home in my bed, in my house, cuddling up with the husband that loved me more than any other woman.

This is so hard, and I bet it's not going to get any easier.

Sorry to be a cry baby. I'm just struggling again tonight.

Jen <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

PS: How does that sig line go that says something like "What do you do when the only person who can stop your tears is the one that made you cry in the first place?" Oh and the other one swirling in my head is cerri's, "You can't be in love with someone whom you fear."

<small>[ June 11, 2003, 11:50 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Jen-

Have a lawyer draft a letter then take it to the local police station. They can contact your husband and make him comply by giving you a key. I had to do this and he got pi$$ed, but I now can go in when I need to.

You have to do this for you. Stop enabling his actions towards you. By not going after what is yours, you are saying in effect - H, I don't deserve anything. Do what you want and it's okay. I will submissively walk away.

What are you afraid of?

Same things I was apparently.

JMHO-

I had no idea I could do that with the letter kily. If I were to do that, what exactly should I be asking the lawyer to write in the letter?

Jen

Talk to your lawyer. X was also mailed a copy of the letter.

My letter stated that I was being denied acces into the home that we co-owned. It notified X that he was to provide me with a key to ALL entrances or I would be within my right to have the locks changed at HIS expense.

It took three visits from the police and much abger from him. Guess what. I have my key and can come and go as I please. I try not to go there too much as I can't stand his GF and she hates me too. It sucks.

Technically Jen, you could move home and there's NOTHING H could do. You could move back into the BEDROOM and he can't do squat - legally.

Then again you are in Canada right? It might be different there...Again check with your lawyer.

Good Luck.

Well, I don't know if I care to get keys and just have access to the house. If he doesn't want me there, I don't want to be there.

I went over there after work today and got the photo albums. When I stepped in the door and told him that I was there to get the albums, he said "no you're not". And I said "yes, that's why I am here." and it went back and forth like that a couple of times until I said, so then why am I here? He said you're not taking the albums. But when I pointed out that they didn't just belong to him, he relented and let me up into the house to retrieve them. I tried asking him what he'd like, copies of all, for me to take the ones of me and my family/friends and make copies of the others I want, and does he want any copies of the ones of me and my/family friends or whatever and he said he didn't know what he wanted. I told him to think about it then. Oh yeah, he also said "you're not supposed to come here during the day, someone might see you." That led to me saying "so you want me to believe that you want to work on our relationship even if you're embarrassed to have me here?" Whatever.

It took him less than 5 mintues again to ask me if I wanted to go upstairs. While I was there, after I'd packed up almost all the albums in my car, I gave him a kiss, thinking it might be my last one, because I do still love him even if the old him is buried somewhere inside. Thinking about that kiss on the way home made me cry. It was a tender, mutual kiss, and it felt like home if you know what I mean. Of course he asked me several times to "go upstairs", and when I kept refusing he altered it to trying to TELL me to go upstairs. I still said no, and reminded him why I was saying no (that I want more than that and that it really hurts that that is all I'm good enough for). Then by the time I left he was saying if you leave, keep on going, and you'll regret leaving (same thing he said the last few times). I wrote a bit more over on D/D, but I'll spare you folks another monstrous post.

In short, the good thing is I got the photo albums. The bad thing is I still feel a bit sick inside about filing for Dv.

But still, we're stuck. He wants a sex only relationship, I want to spend time with him doing non-sexual things. Neither of us is willing to completley cave in to the other person. He refuses to consider marriage counselling. So we're stuck.

This next part is pretty funny though I think. There was a pair of women's sandals at the front door of the house. Too big to be his mom's. Most likely they belong to one of his female friends. I stole one and took it with me in my box of albums. Tee hee! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Now they can go nuts wondering where it is. Don't leave your shoes in my house honey if you don't want to lose them! 'Tis harmless vengence if you ask me, and it sure felt good!

Jen

Jen,

I do really hope reality hits him. Regardless this will affect him. I am guessing initially it his reaction will be like the wrath of god. Someone has to put a stop to the madness. I have thought so much about you lately. I keep thinking of alternatives to divorce. I thought maybe you could move back in...it is ofcourse your house. But thinking about it more I don't think it will bring any positive reaction from him.
I know you are not being manipulative in filing but there is a small part of me that hopes that the finality of divorce will rattle him. I know what it is to see clearly the man your husband could be and mourn for the person he refuses to be.

You have done the best you can with a terrible situation. You are a good person and as you said before a person should not be judged for a couple of isolated events but for the whole that they are.

Don't leave MB or just go to the D/D board altogether. We worry about you. And afterall even with divorce there will be much to sort through. Many here including myself, offer you support through this time and your future healing....with or without your husband.

ayslyne

On a side note...someone once suggested jokingly an MB dating service. In all seriousness wouldnt it be great for single people to have a place to interact with others who espouse to MB principles. I don't know about the logistics but how much more productive would relationships be if they were started with the ideas of LB's, EN's etc. in mind.

Thanks for your post ayslyne. It's good to hear from you again! You've been an amazing source of support over this past year, that is for sure.

I'm hoping I'm not being manipulative in filing either. I've just pretty much had enough and have very little hope left that this will ever work.

Don't worry I likely won't leave GQII, I'm as addicted as the rest of you folks. I love stunned-dad's new sig line, "Welcome to the Hotel Marriage Builders........."you can check out any time you want BUT YOU CAN NEVER LEAVE!""

Yeah, an MB based dating service, where people all recognize emotional needs, and the general Harley approach to relationships sure could have a high success rate I bet! (But I doubt the Harley's would go for it.)

So, I've decided I'm going to ramble a little about what's running through my head. Perhaps it will stimulate some people's thinking (including my own), perhaps it will entertain some of you to see what runs through my head, and if nothing else, I'll get to process things a little by typing it all....here goes.....

You know, it's wierd. My H is EXTREMELY attracted to me physically. Look at how persistant he can be about seeking me out for sex. I'm still attracted to him too, physically at least, but I know I shouldn't do that anymore if it's all he's willing to give. And that IS as much as he's willing to share with me. I think, no, I KNOW he'd be content to go on about life as a separated couple and hook up now and again for sex. He feels almost entitled to that. That obvious attraction on his part to me has had me torn for days now about whether or not to file for Dv. It's almost like he is a lost little boy, who sort of does want to be with me, but just doesn't know how to do it after all this lost time apart. He's also a lost little boy with so much pride he can't bring himself to go for counselling, maybe also b/c he knows the counselor would suggest he make changes in himself too.

Sometimes I wonder, is what he and I had real love? Or did we just find a great sense of security in being with one another, and also happen to really enjoy sex with each other? He was my first everything, first serious boyfriend, first love, first sexual experience. We wanted the fairy tale life of being married to our "first", but we didn't take caution and care to protect that relationship.

I have a friend who is divorced and now remarried to someone else. She often says her first H was really just a good friend that she foolishly married, and she is thankful their marriage ended, because now she is with someone who she both truly loves and is completely attracted to as well.

Last night I was at a BBQ with nearly all couples, married ones mostly too, and they knew my H and I when we were a "happy" couple. I try not to talk about my H, for fear we don't work things out, but when people joke about married life, I'd joke and put my 2 cents worth in about how things WERE with us before all this mess. We were just a typical married couple. We could've pulled it off and made it work. But we've both messed that up now....

I was watching Coronation Street (British Soap) this morning, and there's a man and woman who were married for years and had 2 kids. Then H cheated on W, and they divorced. She had a couple of passionate relationships after their Dv. Now they're about to get remarried. The exH is 100% in love with his exW and wants nothing more than to remarry her and live the rest of his life loving her, and making it (his infidelity)up to her. She has just met some other bloke (there's that Brit language!) and thinks she's in love with him. There was talk about soulmates, etc. It looks like she may just go through with the wedding b/c it's the right thing to do. The MB part of me thinks she should do that, remarry him, learn to love him again, I mean she once did. (How does that silly soap opera stuff relate to me? Somehow it relates to my feeling of obligation to try and make it work with my H, because I am still married to him I guess.)

All of this stuff that I'm rambling on about is whirling in my mind today, as I try to decide what to do when I go and see my lawyer tomorrow, who will have all the papers ready to go if I have the nerve to tell her to go ahead and start the process.

I honestly am completely up in the air about what to do right now, after having been convinced for days that it's time to file and get out of limbo and move on.

It was seeing my H when I got the photos, and seeing him again briefly yesterday (he came over here seeking sex) that has me wondering what to do.

I know I deserve more than he is offering (just secret sex), so I want to file for Dv and eventually find that "something more" with someone else. But I also have looked into the eyes of the man I love(d?) and he's still in there somewhere I think, and I feel like I can see confusion in his eyes too, so I hesitate. But he has no problem causing me pain by refusing to spend non-sexual social time with me, so I should give up and file I figure.

Something else that resonates in my mind is the fact that the best part of living without him is I don't have to live in fear of him anymore. No more fear of him finding something else wrong with what I've done or haven't done, and me having to apologize all the time (and that's how life was pre-A).

I also don't miss the fact that anytime I would try to talk to him and tell him what I thought or feel (heck this is how things go NOW), that I was just an annoyance, and he could care a less what I had to say. I swear he'd rather listen to his stupid female friends than me (that's how I felt last spring pre-A, and even moreso now).

Help a muddled girl out. I know my list of reasons for wanting to divorce him is long enough for me to do it, rationally. But looking in his eyes, and giving him even a brief kiss totally screws with my logical side. I'm going to miss kissing those lips and looking into those blue eyes and cuddling up to him in bed. But I guess there's more to a relationship than that, right?

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ June 15, 2003, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>