For all of you who have suggested that I go to Al-Anon, I know in my brain that it's the right thing to do. I'm not a very outgoing person at first, so it's hard to go sit with a bunch of people, all the while thinking "okay, so how many of them are really in MY situation, though?"

I also know in my mind that plan B is also the best approach. He's been very distant this week--apparently he's getting pushed hard to get out from our house and get a place of his own (most likely because the OW and her roommate are going at it and she's wanting out of there). He said to me tonight, "Do you know one of the reasons I haven't moved out yet? You take care of me."

He said it very nicely, and I know it was meant in his weird way as a compliment, but it's exactly what you've all been saying. I just wish he had at least a few people outside of me who didn't condone his drinking to counterbalance his entire circle of friends who live almost like him.

I have called on apartments for him (furnished, so that he doesn't have to move my furniture out yet since he doesn't know yet how long he's looking at), and have given him one very good option close to his place of work that has a vacancy on an effeciancy on Feb 1. It's just SO hard to imagine it, though. My heart still jumps each time I hear his ring on my cell phone.

If I just thought we had a good chance of riding this out and that he'd hit bottom soon, get sober again, give her up and we'd be back rebuilding by summer, it'd be a whole lot easier. It's really making it hard to even function. I'm dropping weight like crazy (not good when I started at 5'9" and 132lb. I'm at 118 now.) I'm starting to worry that I'm going to lose my own job if I don't get it together.

MelodyLane, if you can contact that person who's been through my situation, I can always use more encouragement.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
[QB]I'm not a very outgoing person at first, so it's hard to go sit with a bunch of people, all the while thinking "okay, so how many of them are really in MY situation, though?"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Alot of things are hard, but I bet you can handle it. NO ONE is in your situation except you. You are there because they can help you with your alcoholic H, not because anyone is in your exact situation. Many of them have been in similar situations to yours and are living normal, SANE LIVES now because they have learned how to live. They can teach you how to be a sane person and protect yourself from your H.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I just wish he had at least a few people outside of me who didn't condone his drinking to counterbalance his entire circle of friends who live almost like him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why? It would make no difference. It makes no difference now. You have no power over him. You have absolutely no influence.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have called on apartments for him (furnished, so that he doesn't have to move my furniture out yet since he doesn't know yet how long he's looking at), and have given him one very good option close to his place of work that has a vacancy on an effeciancy on Feb 1.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please stop doing this right now. Part of the reason he has got so bad is because you have taken care of him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MelodyLane, if you can contact that person who's been through my situation, I can always use more encouragement.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will start a thread with her name on it and ask her to come here, I can't find her email address.

Hi LL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do know that the alcohol addiction is going to make ending his affair MUCH harder. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would have said that would make it impossible. You see? when people drink, they don't live in this world, they live in lala land, and as long as he does, ending the A is not going to be an option... Lala land is too good to be truth, and you don't really want to get down to earth? I mean would you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Even though he says he can't imagine life without me in it, she enables his drinking. That's where he does most of it, and that's why he often doesn't come home at night. She allows him to get blitzed over there and then he sleeps it off.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LL, this can work in you favor, crazy huh? but as long as your H doesn't hit HIS bottom, he is not going to change, so her enabling his drinking, is going to "help" him reach that faster. The problem, is that this can take years, but make no mistakes, alcohol always catch up!!!. For how long is he willing to keep at it? well that would depend on his phisical health and his motives for change.

Like I said before, for a lot of alcoholics, they have to loose it all to make that change, yes even you and his family. I don't know if that would be the case with your H, hope not... But in the mean time, I think you need help for you.

As long as you keep at this, you are enabling him. He likes too much the alcohol and living the "normal" life that you represent.

LL, Al-Anon, is not just a program to deal with alcoholics spouses, it helps you to deal with all the emotions any alcoholic near you can affect you, and it gives you tools on how to deal with it. Also it is an spiritual program.

You have lived with this for too long, and have learned to "accept" it as a part of your life, but now you add A to this already complicated mess, and your world turned upside down.

Please keep going to Al-Anon, they would help you farther than you think, but you have to give them the chance, and give you the chance, don't give up just now, if on one group you don't feel confortable, try another one. I think you are never going to get what is like to be an alcoholic, since you don't suffer from it, but you can learn how to deal with that.

Regarding Al-Anon, and the I don't belong there stuff... well to tell you the truth, I didn't wanted to go to AA when people suggested that to me here, but I don't know, this was the way God choosed to pass me the message (yes he acts in very misterious ways), and for once I decided to follow advice. It didn't mattered to me if I felt like it or not, I just kept going as I was suggested here. Turned out to be, it helped me in MANY ways. I'm not nearly recovered, I think that will be a permanent work in progress for me, but the point is, I will keep going, as long as I think it does me good. So give it at least a month, I think in a month you know what is "happening" there and how it helps ppl, not in just one date. The program is deep, there is no way you can comprehend it on just one week. Keep going!

hi lordslady ~

Melodylane sent me over to share with you my experience.

You've gotten some very straight, honest, reality-based advice on this thread.

I've been married now for over 13 years to an active alcoholic. My husband's affair lasted for nearly to 2 years, starting in Nov 99 until July 2001. We had 2 children, and then I discovered I was pregnant with #3 only 2 weeks after I kicked him out of the house in March of 2001. We had been married 10 years at that point - and I had been a stay at home mom all those years...so no way to take care of myself and 3 children (especially while pregnant).

So as you can imagine....2000 was a very scary hurtful year for me.

How did I survive it?

Al-Anon. Working and practicing the 12 steps in my own life was the key critical factor in where my marriage is today. It did not matter that no one else in my group was experiencing infidelity. You see, it is not important whether or not anyone else had the same experience as me. What mattered was that I shared with the others the same reactions to another person's addiction.

Al-Anon is NOT about the addict, alcohol, infidelity or whatever. Al-Anon is about YOU.

My Al-Anon sponsor has never experienced infidelity in her marriage. She's married to a wonderful man with no addictions. Her MOTHER was the alcoholic in her life - an alcoholic who beat her and abused her horribly as a child. My Al-anon sponsor was kicked down the stairs and broke her back at the age of 9, had her nose broken multiple times, and all kinds of other horrors.

I've never experienced that. She's never experienced what I have experienced.

And yet, my Al-Anon sponsor is the absolutely most important relationship in my life. She has guided me through the 12 steps and given me such wisdom in assisting me to sort through the dark places of my own heart and soul to discover who I am, and who I want to be.

My husband and I eventually did do counciling with Dr. Harley, and we now practice the MB principles in our marriage. My husband is in complete utter denial about his disease.

I sometimes wonder if I do more harm than good in sharing my story, because I do not want anyone, including you, to think that I am somehow a loop hole or an exception to the MB principles. My story should not, and can not possibly prove that Dr. Harley is wrong about addictions and recovery.

I'll back up what others have already told you - while your husband is drinking, you can not recover your marriage, and you can not apply Plan A and Plan B to your situation....at least not how Dr. Harley outlines it.

So, how did I do it?

Well please understand that first of all my husband is a high functioning alcoholic that gets happy while drinking, and has yet to progress into destructive behaviors such as drinking and driving. If the specifics of my husbands symptoms were different (ie dangerous to me and my kids) I would not be here. Because alcoholism is a progressive disease (it always gets worse), it is possible that I will still have to eventually leave my husband.

The beauty of the MB principles is that if they are practiced....(ie POJA, protection, filling needs, time, honesty)....a couple can and should live without boundaries between them.

This IS NOT POSSIBLE with an addict. Even though I count myself to be in recovery...my relationship with my husband has boundaries to protect myself. We do NOT have a POJA even though we do use POJA in many circumstances. We have honesty...most of the time...but he's an addict and still lies. This is who he is. As long as I accept the reality of who and what he is, I make better choices for myself and I keep better boundaries. I do not expect him to conform to the man I want him to be, I deal with him as he is.

My marriage is MUCH better because of MB. My husband understands the necessity of giving me access to everything he does (voicemail, email, cell phone etc) and does it willingly. He understands why and how he ended up in an affair and takes steps to avoid another one. He also understands my ENs (sortof!) and works to fill them. Any time that doing these things does not interfere with his drinking...he does a good job. But don't mistake his changed behaviors to think its all just fabulous. I am very clear that when it comes down to me or booze...BOOZE wins hands down, every time. Hence the boundaries, the emotional detachment with love and my continued particpatioin in Al-Anon.

Also realize that I have turned elsewhere to get many of my needs met outside of my marriage because my husband is not capable of filling them. (You can't give what you don't have, and he doesn't have what I need.) For some people, this means having an affair. Thats not what I mean for myself. It means I have developed my own self-esteem, hobbies, friendships and lifestyle in a way that gives me the support I need.

Why do I stay? Because he is the man I married, and at this point in our life, leaving him would cause more harm to my children than benefit. I have, since his affair, entered the business world and launched myself into a career. I just went through my performance review for the last year, and my boss gave me the absolute highest rating in the entire department. Hows that for self-esteem building! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I even went back to college but had to drop out due to health issues. I plan to return again though shortly.

What I am trying to tell you is that MB principles cant be applied the way they are outlined on this site. You can use them - modified with Al-Anon, to make yourself into someone YOU admire and respect. And it was exactly THAT reason that my husband came back. I changed myself and my reaction to his addictions so dramatically that my husband was motivated and encouraged to try again. This did NOT mean that I learned to be a better enabler and make him more comfortable with his addictions. It meant that I started making choices that respected myself (we teach others how to treat us) and that I stopped trying to control his life. When I started acting respectfully towards him, it had a tremendous impact. I also stopped protecting him, so there were some pretty yucky consequences happening to him. I didn't MAKE consequences happen to him, I just simply stepped out of the path and let them happen. These things all combined made a powerful argument to him to stop cheating on me and to do what it took to pull our family back together.

What you absolutely can do is keep coming here for support through your husband's affair. Even more importantly....you need to go to Al-Anon meetings - daily if necessary through this time in your life.

I would not recommend Plan A for you right now. Plan A is not really possible - because Plan A means that you do your best to avoid lovebusters and fill emotional needs of your spouse. In an alcoholic, this is not possible to do. There is no way you are going to be able to do a better job of filling the ENs of an alcoholic than a bottle of booze or a OW.

You CAN plan A by going to Al-Anon and starting work on yourself. When you start learning to behave in a way that builds your own self-esteem, you will find that lovebusting is easier to avoid, and you'll begin to understand what enabling truely is. And everyone on this thread is right...you have got to stop enabling your husband. This does NOT mean you have to leave him or stop loving him. But it will mean that you'll have to take a closer look at things you are doing that you think are loving....you'll discover that you are actually contributing to his disease. The best way to sort this out is through Al-Anon.

Al-Anon cant help you stop his affair or his drinking. Neither can Marriage Builders.

Your life is NOT over. I promise that if you start practicing the 12 steps, that the best part of your life is just in front of you!

Lordslady, My husband is an alcoholic, he has been in recovery for 22 years with the help and support of AA. We have been married for 25 years so I know what it is like to live with someone who is an alcoholic. I remember all to well the nights of wondering when and if he would come home. If he was driving would he end up killing himself or someone else. The most important thing you have to remember is You can not Fix him. Nothing you do or say will make him stop drinking unles he wants to stop. I know that sounds cold but it is the truth. He needs to first admit he has a problem and then be willing to look for the help he needs to stop drinking and to stay sober. Sometimes an alcoholic has to hit rock bottom first before they can find a way out of the bottle. When my husband was drinking we had our first child, it was then that I knew that I could not let my child grow up with a father who was as drunk. I told him get help or we were gone and he would never see us again, and I meant it. That was the day he made his first call to AA. I know that its hard, but the man your living with now is not the man you want to be with. If he is not willing to get help and stop drinking then let him go, go into plan B, maybe without you there to pull him up he will hit his bottom and get the help he needs. You also should check out Al-Anon, everyone there knows what you are going though and can help suport you. You have been given a lot of good advise, you now need to chose what is best for you and then do it. Good luck, I hope I helped you in someway, my prays are with you and your husband. ellyn

Question for Bramblerose: Did your husband think he loved the OW? My husband isn't sure at this point who he loves more, me or her. I sure know who he spends 95% of his time with.

As for the alcoholism, he does drink heavily. He's spending several nights per week and generally every weekend drinking and passing out at people's houses. However, he has had 3 or 4 decent periods of sobriety during our marriage. His last was for 2 great years and he began again in 10/2003 right after the A started to heat up.
He also drinks and drives, which he's always done, and which always scares me. He's had two OWI's, one involved an accident.

I hate that he drinks, but it's never been something I was going to leave him for. This A is tearing me up. It's been going on for almost 5 months now out in the open. Most research I see says an affair rarely last more than 6 months when exposed. I don't see any hope in the near future for this one.

In any of your or other's experience, do most affairs eventually burn out, even if the two think they're in love? If so, on average how long does it take. I realize this one is also tainted because of the alcohol.

I'm just having a really bad evening because he is my life and I see everything falling apart. He wants to get a place of his own which might be good except that she's having problems with her roommate and is filling his truck with apartment literature, meaning she has every intention of moving in. He says there's no way, but I know him too well. When people are down on their luck, he helps them out. She has no job, no car, no $, a baby---she's basically a loser, but she'll say "can I just stay for a few weeks until I"m back on my feet", and he'll never have the guts to kick her out.

I love him so much. He's been my life since I was 15. I can't bear the thought of going on without him. I don't want to be alone. And my Biblical beliefs prevent me from remarrying someone unless they've never been married, are widowed, or unless they were left by a spouse because of the spouse's infidelity. Pretty slim pickin's for a 38-year-old with a difficult to manage teenage daughter (one of the reasons my H lists for getting into the affair--being unappreciated by his kids).

I'm SO depressed tonight. I can't concentrate at work. I can't do things at home. I feel like the pain will never end.

LL, most affairs usually do burn out around 6 months to a year. But that won't solve the problem for you because the OW is just his second love. His real love is booze. If the affair ends, it won't because he has seen the error of his ways, but because he is bored or tired of the OW. So then it will be onto the next OW.

The issues that led to the affair in the first place will always be there as long as he drinks. Just waiting for it to run its course won't solve the problem. So, he may end this affair only to go onto another one.

And no wonder you feel hopeless and depressed, you have handed the reigns of your life over to an insane man. Who wouldn't be unhappy? But it was you that made that choice.

They have a saying in AA that is very true: the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results. Why not try something different this time and just excuse yourself from his insanity and take back control of your life?

Something you have said in a couple of your posts may be part of the root of your recovery. You have said "he is my life" in one way or another several times. While that may be how you have felt since you've known him, you know longer "really know" the man you married.

Your focus, starting immediately, should be on your life. All of what you think and do is reactive to what your WS is doing. It is time for you to roll up your sleave and make yourself the most important person in your life, and take care of you.

All of the other posts here are filled with sage advice which you should pay close attention to. Purchase and read Surviving an Affair, and attend the Alanon meeting, and let your self grow and find strenth in knowledge. You will then be better able to put all things in perspective, and make the correct decisions regarding what is best FOR YOU in your mission for recovery from both of your WH addictions.

God bless and good luck!

I did purchase SAA, and have read the first few chapters. That's what originally gave me hope, until I realized it may not work the same with an alcoholic. Then I lost hope. The MB approach makes a lot of sense to me.

And true, I don't know him at all right now. It's just hard to believe the person I used to know isn't still in there buried somewhere. I hate to give up.

As for the drinking and the A, I realize it's always a risk, but it was 12 years between his first one (and that one was a payback for a stupid indescretion on my part, but his got out of hand.)

He's had periods of drinking and periods of sobriety during our marriage, with the latter being lots easier to live with. But he wasn't drinking when this affair started. I truly believe it was the guilt and shame of the affair that threw him back into drinking.

My pastor has advised a similar version of what everyone else has been saying. He says with or without physical separatiion (which is looking a lot more likely on his part), I have to somehow find a way to distance myself from him emotionally, and quit calling him and stuff all the time. Easier said than done, because I worry.

So now I have to figure out how to make a life and try to weather this.

But my serious question to everyone is -- is there hope that this affair will end? I'll deal with the next one if it happens. I just want a shot at having him back and trying not to do some of the LB's that I know lead him to this one.