I think with regards to the numbers, statistics, and figures that have been provided, along with my own personal experience in the workplace, I agree with Sufdb.

I believe it is all about priorities. If I put as much effort, time, energy, and heart into a career as I put into raising my boys, keeping my home, and supporting our community, I have no doubt that I could run a company some day. A big huge company with a lot of challenges and hard work, since that is the type of work I'm used to. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I have limits, though, and I am only one person. I felt I had to choose between the two, in order to do one well, not both 1/2 a**ed.

I do not regret my decision to raise my boys and nurture my family. Obviously, somewhere I went off track, because my WH has had an A and moved out, but a lot of his issues are his alone, and you cannot force someone to talk about things they can't figure out for themselves. But that is for another thread.

I just wanted to come at it from a Home Maker perspective. I could have anything I want in a career. I have proven that to myself. I have also proven to myself that I cannot meet my home obligations in a way that is acceptable to ME while climbing a corporate ladder. And I am at peace with my decision.

Thanks MelodyLane for this thread. My mother went through 5 husbands, and never figured it all out. She was very independent, and while she wanted a man in her life to "take care of her," she never allowed them to really get close to her.

With what has happened in my own M, I have been thinking about her a lot lately. Trying to see how her life, with me in it, has influenced my choice of H, and also my behavior in my M.

Very interesting. I am going to purchase the book you spoke of. I don't always agree with Dr. Laura, but it sounds like a book that would be good for me to read. WH's OW is very receptive to men, very pliable in a way, to their needs.

Perhaps I need to integrate some of that into myself, in a healthy way. OW is not in a healthy way. Not being mean or angry, but the fact is that her accomodation of men has made her a sl**. I definately don't want to go down THAT road. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Amy

Sometimes statistics report on the *facts* while muddling through some of the feldercarb that would make *facts* appear to make more sense.

Statistically speaking there is in fact a glass ceiling for women in the work place, however, there are many highly educated women who choose husband and career over high achieving career options, no because they can't cut it in the workplace, but rather because they have their priorities in a different order.

Personally as a high achieving business person in the workplace, I've not run into a 'glass ceiling' nor have I found that I can't cut it on any level. As life opens up more opportunity, I find my skill levels advance to meet whatever I need, because I'm a learned person capable of adapting my skills.

I also will admit readily, that I would trade it all in a heart beat for a man who would love me and treat me with respect, while putting my children in proper place on his priority list. I'm not saying I would give up my skills, or even let them go to waste. I believe there are definite places for my skills in homemaking and child rearing. I have no need to maintain CEO status to prove myself or my position in life.

I fully believe that when your status becomes the "who you are" of your existence, you loose. I can't define myself by what I do - but rather by who I am, as in my personal life priorities. I am far more than the title I hold.

Jan

Melody - There will be some here that take what you are saying out of context or try to twist your words to be compatible with their "victimology" agenda. I encourage you to stick to your convictions because you know that approach is right for you. I see your post as a means of sharing your success story and encouraging us with good news. We who are still struggling need some good news and a fresh perspective.

The approach you are taking rub many wrong here, because they are stuck in the rut of the "feel sorrys" and insist on exacting their ounce of flesh or revenge until they somehow feel they have closure. You choose to pursue the way of peace and God will richly bless you for that. Stick to your guns!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by stunned-dad-fast recovering:
<strong> Melody if you would have read my first post without trying to infere something negative in it you would have seen that my response was to say I came to the opposite conclusion.

All this other political bickering was not in my first post but drawn out by your response. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">stunneddad, so when you responded to my post about treating men with LOVE AND RESPECT with inferences of sexual abuse, violence and so called "gender inequality," we WEREN'T to infer anything negative? Ok.....

Excuse me for being silly enough to infer such a thing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sj *trouble*:
<strong> Sometimes statistics report on the *facts* while muddling through some of the feldercarb that would make *facts* appear to make more sense.

Statistically speaking there is in fact a glass ceiling for women in the work place, however, there are many highly educated women who choose husband and career over high achieving career options, no because they can't cut it in the workplace, but rather because they have their priorities in a different order.

Personally as a high achieving business person in the workplace, I've not run into a 'glass ceiling' nor have I found that I can't cut it on any level. As life opens up more opportunity, I find my skill levels advance to meet whatever I need, because I'm a learned person capable of adapting my skills.

I also will admit readily, that I would trade it all in a heart beat for a man who would love me and treat me with respect, while putting my children in proper place on his priority list. I'm not saying I would give up my skills, or even let them go to waste. I believe there are definite places for my skills in homemaking and child rearing. I have no need to maintain CEO status to prove myself or my position in life.

I fully believe that when your status becomes the "who you are" of your existence, you loose. I can't define myself by what I do - but rather by who I am, as in my personal life priorities. I am far more than the title I hold.

Jan </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is exactly the conclusion reached by those who actually study the "apparent" glass ceiling. There isn't one, except as a statistical construct, therefore it is mislabled. Women have the ability and opportunity to be senior corporate bigwigs.....they just don't want to, they have different life priorities. These jobs are not just "given" to males (or anyone), you sell your soul for them, they become your "life". Women who sell their soul have no trouble moving up....likewise men who don't DO NOT move up either. The soul business being essentially having some other life than work.

Likewise there is no salary discrepancy between genders.....marketplace forces make sure of that....any company that discriminates against women goes out business remarkably fast....all the discriminators died long ago.

MelodyLane,

Are you purposely trying to misinterpret what I say?

I did not in any way equate treating one's spouse with love and respect to being submissive. But your statement:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I let him make the major decisions or we make them together.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If he is making many of the major decisions himself, then that is the submissiveness I am talking about. I can't imagine any major decision that shouldn't be made jointly. Love and respect should be mutual and based on equality.

I object strenuously to your contention that feminists are more likely to lie than any other group of people. I am sure some feminists do lie, as do some male chauvinists, or some of any other group.

What makes me uncomfortable are people whose core beliefs change radically, especially over a short time - ardent feminists who become ardent anti-feminists, atheists who are born again and born-again Christians who become atheists, steak-lovers who become vegans, etc. It is difficult to trust people like that.

It is in no way denigrating women to state that they have been treated with prejudice, anymore than it is denigrating people of color to make a similar statement. It is a statement of fact, a statement which in no way implies lack of intelligence.

I am not sure how domestic violence or violence on women has much to do with this thread. I am sure the numbers are not only valid, but underreported. I do differ sometimes on how one interprets a physical incident, since women often provoke conflict that degenerates into some physical contact (whereas male on male goes unremarked on...and rightly so). But that is a whole different sub-issue from males using violence specifically to intimidate, control, or just plain act out, on females....and there is way too much of this, as well as sexual strategies that involve rape and coercion...It is a huge problem.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sj *trouble*:
<strong>
Personally as a high achieving business person in the workplace, I've not run into a 'glass ceiling' nor have I found that I can't cut it on any level. As life opens up more opportunity, I find my skill levels advance to meet whatever I need, because I'm a learned person capable of adapting my skills.

I also will admit readily, that I would trade it all in a heart beat for a man who would love me and treat me with respect, while putting my children in proper place on his priority list. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jan, I agree with you 100%. I am a mid level executive at a top soft drink company and my sister is a Vice President for another soft drink company. She clawed her way to the top and retired, completely burned out at age 43, 2 years ago.

Rather than a glass ceiling in top companies, I see enormous opportunity for women because companies are frantic to find women for these positions so as not be accused of discrimination. I see lots of women in positions of power that have no business being there, too.

My sister and I both agree that there is plenty of room at the top for women who are prepared to give it all up for those positions. However, it has been my experience that most women are not willing to make the sacrifices necessary to compete.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> RESPECT with inferences of sexual abuse, violence and so called "gender inequality," we WEREN'T to infer anything negative? Ok.....
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No I point blank said I was ashamed of the abuse I have of so many posters.

As for gender inequality well I said I was taking a masters level course on that subject.

And if men discriminate against women, if men practice violence against women ITS A NEGATIVE reflection on MEN for crying out loud. YOUR thread is about VIEWS OF MEN.....and as such I was adding a differing opinion on how this message board impacted my view on men.

The response was a just like a million other responses on this board.

Poster claims they see the benefit of therapy and why. Another poster comes on and says they didn't see any benefit and says why. We have a post on the Passion of Christ that some say moved them and why. Others said it didn't and why.

I wonder Melody if I had used the expression "Good Ole Boy Network" when dealing with my impression of say southerners would you have jumped to the conclusion I was putting down blacks or putting down white bigots? Clearly I was putting down sexist men who abused their spouses. A mere reference to a course and what was being studied in it was a not the main point of my post and to conclude otherwise is ingnore the main point in my post.

<small>[ March 01, 2004, 08:58 AM: Message edited by: stunned-dad-fast recovering ]</small>

nellie...If he is making many of the major decisions himself, then that is the submissiveness I am talking about. I can't imagine any major decision that shouldn't be made jointly.

sufdb....why? (whether male or female) I see no particular reason why an individual may choose (because of trust in their ability, and know concern for spouse will be part of the process) to let another asssume that role.

Nellie...Love and respect should be mutual and based on equality.

sufdb...They should definitely be mutual, in a healthy/functional relationship...but that has nothing to do with equality. Trying to make marriage an "equality" only insures it's failure as anything more than a contratural relationship...If you seek intimacy, and deep connections, you won'tr find them adversarily, and that is what equality is all about in life....keeping score.

My mother bought the book read it and gave it to me yesterday...

I haven't read much...but it is based on calls and faxes from men and women..

a few of the opening quotes by males were about the nature of men was....(their own description)

1. as a man, I can tell you our needs are simple. We want to be fed, we want our kids mothered, and we want loving." (vince)

2. Men are only interested in two things: If I'm no not horny, make me a sandwich." John...

I read those to mr. ark and he replied that he also likes to watch tv and hold the remote... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

In the book also it states
\
Gloria Steinem wrote that "women need men like fish need bicycyle,"
more than a generation of women have foolishly bought that destructive nonsense and have denigrated men, marriage, familial obligation and motherhood all to their own detriment.......


I haven't gotten very far in the book...
I have to say that I have few if any real complaints about my husband....

our biggest fights these days are sooo unbelievalbey silly that it ends up just making us laugh...
last big one was months ago when I asked him to set the alarm for me at 4:00 am for me to get up for work...and he set it for 4:03 am which I took as proof that he doesn't listen too me??!!!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ....
Thats just assinine...on my part...

BUT I know early on in our marriage I held him accountable for all the was evil in the universe..
I made mountains of NOTHING
I rarely spoke to him of my admiration..though co-workers that new me saw right through my own insanity...and friends and co-workers have always said..
"Poor mr. ARK in reference to having to put up with some of my antics..." (in a good way...)..

And yet for a time I also treated my husband in way that these days I consider not nice at all..
the good news is that if you were to ask him he always says that I have been nice to him..but I know there were times I could have and should have been nicer...

I alone could have run this marriage right off the track and lost him for good...

I am scared to read this book...
I already feel bad about those times in the past..and the times now when I take things out on him that are not of his doing...

AND if you listen to dr. laura..the men calling in saying if their wives would only act glad to see them at the end of a work how much that would mean to them...

We do make life way more complicated than it is in my opinion....

ARK

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by stunned-dad-fast recovering:


And if men discriminate against women, if men practice violence against women ITS A NEGATIVE reflection on MEN for crying out loud. YOUR thread is about VIEWS OF MEN.....and as such I was adding a differing opinion on how this message board impacted my view on men.

[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SD, what is negative towards women is your inference that women can't cut it in the workplace. It is insulting to see your attempt to pander undeserved sympathy by portraying us as hapless victims. I realize that you have some hard feelings about men, but what in the world does sexual abuse and violence have to do with treating with men with respect and kindess?


When it is suggested that men treat women with love, respect and kindness, do you trot out how women verbally abuse and try to control their husbands? Do you trot out examples of that? I have never seen that in all the years I have been here!

I guess I am just horrified that the mere suggestion that we treat men with respect and love is met with politically correct, anti-intellectual male bashing coupled with a tired old attempt to portray women as stupid, hapless victims. Good grief....

Nelly - With all due respect, I disagree with your assumption that ALL decisions can be made with the POJA. I realize my stance on this is opposed to the Harley principles, but in a Christian household with BOTH spouses obedient to the Scriptures, it must be the H's responsibility to have the FINAL say in the decision. Of course, this is AFTER man and wife discuss and pray over the issue, and it is NOT the man's calling to be demanding and controlling in the decision making process. In a non-Christian household I can see where POJA would be the sole source of decision making.

Harry Truman had a sign posted on his desk that read "The buck stops here!". In a Bible-centered M the buck stops with the husband's willingness, or unwillingness, to make a decision. Please remember the Biblical mode of marital decision making does not resemble a democracy.

Melody's approach works, it is fulfilling, and it WILL have lasting, positive benefits.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nellie1:
[QB] MelodyLane,

Are you purposely trying to misinterpret what I say?

I did not in any way equate treating one's spouse with love and respect to being submissive. But your statement:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I let him make the major decisions or we make them together.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If he is making many of the major decisions himself, then that is the submissiveness I am talking about. I can't imagine any major decision that shouldn't be made jointly. Love and respect should be mutual and based on equality.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nellie, but I can. I don't want to make all the decisions anymore - that is my choice. I have done that for years and I like having a competent man who can make decisions. You are grasping at straws here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I object strenuously to your contention that feminists are more likely to lie than any other group of people. I am sure some feminists do lie, as do some male chauvinists, or some of any other group. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You can object as strenuously as you want, they are notorious liars. Even the past president of the NOW, Tammy Bruce has said this. Also, I was raised by a NOW member and was a member myself until the lightbulb went off. So don't tell me they aren't liars, I know better.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What makes me uncomfortable are people whose core beliefs change radically, especially over a short time - ardent feminists who become ardent anti-feminists, atheists who are born again and born-again Christians who become atheists, steak-lovers who become vegans, etc. It is difficult to trust people like that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What is difficult to trust, Nellie, is folks who use ad hominem arguments instead of logic and reason. Bad form, Nellie.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is in no way denigrating women to state that they have been treated with prejudice,]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is denigrating to infer that the success of women is contingent upon how MEN treat them or what MEN give them. You are the one implying here that women are DEPENDENT upon men and cannot cut it withtout their help. Do you not see that?

Is your success contingent upon what some man gives you? Or are you competent all by yourself?

<small>[ March 01, 2004, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Thx melody, nothing like a little social philosophy free for all to take ones mind off their troubles.....or maybe I should thank stunned dad <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Actually I am not really sure what he is getting at at all....maybe he could restate his purpose/position. I did get the part about the real issue of violence on women (and how disturbing it is to see here)...but no one seems to disagree with that.

Stunned, I had a similar revelation when I came on-line....my baptism to on-line controversy was at a feminism board on iVillage....I stopped one day cause am always curious about how women think. So I made my first post on a subject at hand that day (abortion), and got drawn and quartered (lol), including by the moderator, who was beside herself (we later became board friends when she finally understood I wasn't some evil male mysoginist). I stayed for 2 years as the resident male chauvanist (not really, I am just a free thinker, but it served many of the regulars to use me for that purpose....much like here actually <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )...many welcomed my presence...but I digress. The point being was that while on that board, from time to time members would have reason to make known they had been sexually abused/coerced/raped/etc. The numbers were huge, probably 30-40 per cent....it made me really really angry. I don't think it is a stretch to conclude the likelihood (and I think it is greater now), a female will have such an experience (in their lifetime) is approaching 100% (depending on where we draw the line)....that is just plain wrong. The news media is currently talking about a trucker serial killer who is murdering prostitutes (and most people don't care too much cause that is who the victims are), and all I can think about is how many of these women never had a chance cause they were abused and used....instead of nurtured and protected. Makes me so mad.

Nellie1 ---

Not sure why Melody has misunderstood your post (if she did). I do not believe I did.

I perceive a different realization from her statement: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I let him make the major decisions or we make them together. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I perceived it to be their personal agreement - and therefore not submissive in a way of her giving him power, but rather mutual choice that he make the decision freeing her up to make other choices/decisions for her life.

To everyone:

I believe there are times in our lives where we need to step back and look at our priorities and determine if they are in-line with our true beliefs. I personally have felt for a long while that women are ready to look at the cost of being part of the workplace and many of them are regretting those choices. I didn't want to be part of the 40 year knoll group - I wanted to be a stay at home mom - that wasn't the lot I drew in life. I can't complain about where I've gone in life, because my choices have been my own. However, I won't participate in the liberationist movement, because I honestly believe that if women truly wanted it - they would have already acquired it.

Even the most liberated women I've met have limits of what they want to be liberated in. I've met few who are willing to pick up a shovel and dig their own ditches, they want to hire someone to do the 'dirty work' while they sit behind their CEO desk and live it up with a pencil over their ear. Sorry, can't have it both ways. If you want the honor of being top dog - you also have to be willing to get down and dirty and earn your keep in the trenches. IT isn't just the glass ceiling that is a problem - it's that crystal floor with the curtain across it so they don't have to watch the men doing the dirty work in the trenches.

I will tell you - a truly liberated woman doesn't have to *talk* about it - she's THERE, she's earned it, she feels it, because she's dug the trenches, scouped the processed feed after the cattle were done with it, worked her fingers to the bleeding bone digging ditches, bore her children, catered to and been catered to, and she's earned her keep in the penthouse office. A truly liberated woman doesn't feel dissed when a man opens a door for her, she feels honored. She doesn't feel angered by those who hold her chair, she feels honored. She doesn't feel left behind when someone else earns a position ahead of her, she feels they have earned it and congratulates them. She doesn't feel limited by the abilities of others, she feels blessed by the skills God gave her.

I believe that we limit ourselves when we attempt to define ourselves through the limitations of others. Freedom has a cost. The cost of freedom of choice is often laced within the choices we make. For instance, if I choose to be a stay at home mom, I'm giving up my 'right' to be the CEO of a grand and glorious Fortune 500 Firm. If I choose to be the CEO, I'm giving up my 'right' to be a stay at home mom. I have choices. I make them daily. I realize that along with choices come the costs of my own pleasures.

That is the reality that goes along with freedom of choice.

Blessings,

Jan

In my obsessive need for harmony (rescuers/peoplepleasers have such difficult lives)....let me suggest this.

Feminists are not neccesarily liars (and what exactly is a feminist anymore anyways)...but recent, and current feminist leadership may in fact include lots of self-serving liars (for the usual political reasons...self-serving power mongering)...and do tremendous damage to gender relations. The tide has passed on emacipateing women.....they are emancipated, the fight is over. The 19th century feminists were leaders, and visionaries for the most part (even if one or two may have harbored resentment to males....who could blame em?)...but the current leaders are simply trying to whip up a non-existend cause to serve themselves...they are reduncant and unnecessary....The women who should be the "leaders" now, are the female behavioral psychologists...who with their male counterparts, are finally mapping out why the genders differ, and how to make good use of those differences....not pound males (or females) into submission. The genders are decidedly NOT equal, but they are beautifully synergistic....when radical feminists aren't exhorting the females to "roar".

This knowledge is available to feminist leadership, one can only wonder why they don't do their homework....and/or promote ridiculous information that serves no purpose but to polarize the genders.....such as the glass ceiling, and pay differences....both notions thoroughly debunked....and both notions noting but victimology promoting.

Mel -

I just wanted you to know that I think you are a blessing to this forum...

Thank you for sharing your life with us.

Blessing to you.

Gib

sufbd, Thank you for that excellent and much needed clarification. I did not mean to indict all feminists with my statement. As you pointed out, all are certainly not liars, but rather leadership of specific groups.

Thanks Gibby. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

YOu guys just open a can of worms!

my views? I never hated men, many of friends do,and I've always wondered why. ALthough my father was unfaithful to my mom, I didn't hate him. I love him more than I like my mom hehe. I've always been independant though. I was raised that I do not "NEED" a man to make me happy. I know I don't "NEED" a man.. but I WANT A man.. And I think I somewhat tell my husband that I do not need him. I did that for a long time. I told him, "I don't specially need you, but I want you to be with me." I don't know what I meant by that.. anyways.. What I am saying is that Men and women have their differences, but we need each other.

Maybe not financially.. (men bring the bread home, and woman make the sandwich with him for him) haha.. but I think men and women can work together and live happily together if they really respect the difference and rejoice in the similarities. I don't need anymore books to tell me what men want and what women wants. We are individuals and all have different wants and needs. If we try to learn from each other we can make it.

The thing is that Women shouldn't make the assumption all men are dogs...well...(I thought my husband wasn't a dog, turn out...he is a puppy) not professional yet at being a DOG! Ha ha .

My post is probably the crapiest one here, but I wanted to say something to stop this string pulling!
Do I beleive all men are dogs? uhmm I didn't think that before, now I am beginning to think by just being on this board.. to see the differences between WH and WW.. there WAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYY more WH than WW <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> now if I was to do the statistics correctly... I'd go through all these boards.
Then som eof you might tell me, not many men want to come in here and complain about their spouse infidelity.....but with a random pick.. more men are cheating than women! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Are they just unhappy? are we mistreating them? uhmm... I DON"T THINK SO! It's like INNATE for them to CHEAT!

Now tell me I'm wrong. ha ha <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />