RG, thanks for chiming in. getting perspective from BSs is helping me very much.

for example.... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> at some point i asked him, why he decided to have sex. he said he wanted to find out how it would feel. i asked if he was mad or was it more low self-esteem now, he said "i have no self-esteem."

You really have to stop this. This is a LB. You rubbed the A in his face with the low self-esteem comment. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i did not mean to LB and I had no idea that might be how it was taken <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> i didn't say the comment about low self-esteem meanly. i was just trying to help him identify and communicate how he was feeling.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Let the man heal, if he wants to talk about it he will.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">historically, it has always been really really hard for my H to share his feelings. i think it is hard for him to even identify his feelings to himself. this is one reason why Retrouvaille had a bigger impact on him. he really learned how to communicate feelings and he bought into the importance of doing that. and he had gotten really good at it. but since d-day, i feel he is struggling with sharing again. truth is, i really worry about him. he is keeping it all in. i told him it would be ok with me if he wanted to talk to some friend/relative about it. he does not have to keep it a secret for my sake. if it would help him to talk, i prefer he does that. i just asked him to let me know who he tells. but he says he does not want to talk to anyone about it.

i beleive we need to share how we are doing and lean on each other to heal. he has made references to how we need to talk more but he hesitates. so i am pushing a little but only because i think he needs to be pushed a bit in order to get the ball rolling.

truth be told, i would LOVE to never talk about it, keep a blind eye to it all, that sure would be easier on my heart. but i don't want him dealing with this all alone. i truely want to just help him feel better. i'm not saying i want to rush it, i just don't want him to isolate and withdrawal.

but i will keep in mind what you are saying, and i will definitely NOT try identify his feelings for him any more(like by asking him, are you feeling anger or low self-esteem or whatever...) so thanks for that insight.

regarding FUN. that is an excellent point too. when i was trying to end A and get back into the marriage, one thing that helped me a lot was us getting back into playing raquetball. it's something we did when we dated and it is still lots of fun with him. we got into a pretty good habit but since xmas, we never really got back into it. we've gone a few times, but not every fri afternoon like we used to. so i asked him if he would like to play sometime this weekend, he is not sure, he said he likes the idea but this weekend might be tough due to his upcoming trip. i will suggest it again after his trip.

today i ordered tickets for all 4 of us to go to see the BoDeans at an outdoor place in Aug. It is a very nice park, we get lawn tickets, bring food, wine, games... when i first called to tell him i was going to buy the tickets he was pretty chilly about the idea. i didn't know how to react at first. it was like he was saying, how can you be thinking about something like that at a time like this??? i said, the kids and us usually enjoy at least one summer time concert (ok, truth be told I would go to one every week!!! and my son takes after me. over the past 2 years, i've been taking my son to more and more concerts, it is really fun for us and i hope they are memories he will cherise. i usually get some sort of picture and frame it with the tickets, the frames are all in his room. but my H is not into the crowds anymore, which is why this outdoor place is a little better for him)

he ended up saying ok but relunctenly. about 2 hrs later he left me a phone msg and said thanks for getting the tickes, it will be fun and he is glad i thought about it. and he even apologized for his initial reaction. so i think that was good.

so in summary... i will
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NOT try to identify his feelings for him, but i will probably still nudge him some to share with me at times, but not like everyday!!!</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">keep making opportunities for fun.</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Edited to add: P.S. I loved the way you got the point across of remembering to have fun. made me smile, thanks! and yes, the year thing was way off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> i have very much chilled on that whole topic, he seems to always like some sort of SF and i am really glad, even the days of one-sided SF is very healing for me too, i really love making him feel good <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> and now that i am no longer freaking out over the thought of it being a year before he would want me completely, i'm enjoying whatever amount that happens each night.

<small>[ April 15, 2004, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: FinallyLearning ]</small>

FL,

I was thinking of your last post and how you responded to RG. A thought came to me. I was remembering in my batchelor days when a friend and I would take off on a car trip go to Vegas or someplace else. Just two guys off to see what kind of trouble we could get into. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I recall the best part of the drives was just rolling along and watching the world go by. His then GF once asked what we talked about, and he responded "nothing". She looked at him and stated "yeah, what kind of nothing did you talk about." He said "NOTHING".

The fact of the matter was we enjoyed each others company and we really said NOTHING. The silence was comforting, relaxing, enjoyable. We were best friends, best man in each others weddings, and keep in touch 35 years later. You know what? When we get together, a lot of the time we say...NOTHING. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

When my W and I go on car trips, guess what? We say NOTHING (well, there are announcements for potty stops and such <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ), but we are best friends as well, so the need to talk is NOT there. Now trust me there is NOT complete silence <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> but we both like to travel by car, and we both enjoy scenery and the beauty of this country, so we enjoy it with no need to talk.

So I'm thinking if you want your H to become comfortable with you and perhaps even let him open up, sit with him and say NOTHING. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Seriously, go out on the porch, the patio, somewhere outside and hold his hand, rub his arm, rest your head on his shoulder, something and just let the silence do the talking.

In my simple mind that is what best friends can do, that others cannot. Just enjoy one anothers presence. I have a feeling he will understand, and I suspect it will defuse some of the anger/pain within him. Just relax and be with him, touch him, and say NOTHING. It might help you both.

Just a thought.

God Bless,

JL

roman, tax day is here so i hope your work load ligthens up abit. i finally filed ours this morning!! i don't know why i always wait till the end, we usually get a refund, including this year. although i am always the one to fill out forms (i do it for his mom too), H usually is around harrasing me to get it done, but this year he didn't even care enough to harrase me, which is very understandable!! he did, however, give me a very nice thank you regarding doing the taxes. he said, he realized maybe he does not show his appreciation about how much i do to keep us financially organized (i do bills and most of his business books too). i told him he has actually always been good about thanking me for doing his mom's taxes since his dad died. and that it meant a lot to me that he was now thanking me and acknowledging the stuff i do for our household, especially now!!

anyway, thanks, as always, for your post. i am glad i am helping you too, you are certainly helping me a LOT!

so, are you sharing with your wife at all??? i realize i may not know everything about your situation and you may not feel you are able to lean on her at this point but i still think you need to some extent. here is something to think about, i get the impression you worry about sharing with her, that it will only make her feel worse, and on some level it may do just that, but, if you can find a way to let her know that your sharing is not meant to make her feel bad but it is actually meant to seek comfort from her. we females love to give comfort!! for me, being able to bring comfort to someone really helps me not get all caught up on my own problems. not EVERY time, but some times. it ALWAYS feels good when i see my actions resulting in another person feeling better.

i think you could get a win-win situation going here. you could get the comfort you need sometimes from her, and she feel good about being able to help you. if you think she is too fragile to handle it, start small. you have been working extra hours, right? you must be tired. ever try to ask her if you can lay your head on her lap some evening at the end of the day when you two are maybe winding down watching the evening news? provided you watch the evening news!! just tell her you had a long day and you would really like to rest on her. does that sound doable?? let me know.

Leaning on God is ALWAYS a good thing to do, but that does not mean you should not try to lean on your wife too. if you are too much of a rock, she may feel like you don't really need her anyway.

what was the main EN that you think your W got from the OM? do you know? are you able to help meet those needs now? you sound frustrated that things are going slow, although it is good that you do feel things are moving forward. maybe there are things you can do to help pick up the pace a bit.

what do you think?

JL,

thanks for that thought. it is a really good one actually. go figure, you had a good thought!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> you do know i am teasing, you have tons of good thoughts!!

i am the type that tends to go a million miles ALL the time (and not always in the same direction). it is really hard for me to just sit still sometimes!!!! perhaps that does not really surprise you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

unless i am in the hammock, that is one place i can really just sit <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> it is perhaps my favorite thing at our lake house, it hangs right between two trees on the shoreline.

here at the house, we have an enclosed front porch that we use in the nice weather. that is a perfect place to just sit. with the nicer weather, i will find time, while H is out of town to open the porch up for the summer, get it all cleaned up and ready for use.

thanks.

OK FL, I`ll chime in again then...lol..

historically, it has always been really really hard for my H to share his feelings.

It is for most men. From time we are children we are taught "boys don`t cry". Sharing feelings/showing emotion is seen as a weakness among our peers. Only when we understand that the ones we love need this, will we do it.

i think it is hard for him to even identify his feelings to himself.

He probably knows very well what he is feeling. Expressing them goes against a lifetime of negative and positive reinforcement.

he really learned how to communicate feelings and he bought into the importance of doing that. and he had gotten really good at it.

So he does know what he`s feeling. Look at it as he has gone back to a place that is safe for him now. He`ll come back to communicate again. He just needs some time.

but since d-day, i feel he is struggling with sharing again. truth is, i really worry about him. he is keeping it all in.

Believe it or not he`s probably protecting you from his feelings. He doesn`t want to hurt you with them. He`s kept it all in all of his life so he doesn`t see this as a problem IMO.

told him it would be ok with me if he wanted to talk to some friend/relative about it. he does not have to keep it a secret for my sake.

He wants to keep it a secret for HIS sake. No one wants everyone to know their W cheated on them if they intend to stay married IMO.

i beleive we need to share how we are doing and lean on each other to heal. he has made references to how we need to talk more but he hesitates. so i am pushing a little but only because i think he needs to be pushed a bit in order to get the ball rolling.

He probably dosen`t want to talk about the A. He probably has enough info about that and is now trying to push it to the back of his mind. What he wants to talk about is your R but doesn`t know how to talk about that without the A becoming the topic. So he hesitates. IMO. I could be way off here but I bet thats it.

today i ordered tickets for all 4 of us to go to see the BoDeans at an outdoor place in Aug. It is a very nice park, we get lawn tickets, bring food, wine, games... when i first called to tell him i was going to buy the tickets he was pretty chilly about the idea.

He probably was chilly because, right now. He is feeling a TOTAL lack of control over his life. He sees you as having all of the control. And he resents that. You need to engage him so he feels some control again. just a few little words in each sentence . "don`t you think so" and "what do you think" will help.

Example say, "Don`t you think it would be fun to go to BoDeans AUG." Instead of "I`m going to buy ticktes for us"

Or, "what do you think would be fun to do friday". If he has no idea suggest 3 or 4 things and let him pick.

It won`t be long and he`ll be planning the dates.

he ended up saying ok but relunctenly. about 2 hrs later he left me a phone msg and said thanks for getting the tickes, it will be fun and he is glad i thought about it. and he even apologized for his initial reaction. so i think that was good.

He realized you were just trying to be nice. That is real good. Use those few little words and go have some fun. Involve him and only him in it.Go out to dinner, to a movie, dancing or whatever together and alone with eachother. Escape with him from all this mess. Do you understand what I`m trying to say? You have to court eachother again. And that starts with fun alone with eachother.

One other thing lighten up a little..lol...Relax and enjoy this. I know that sounds strange, but. Its an amazing thing to watch your S fall back in love with you. Don`t be so worried that you miss it. He`ll be fine.

RG, chime in all you want!!!

regarding the concert. i didn't just buy them, i called him first. now i cannot tell you exactly how i worded it all, i think i just basically said the new schedule is up (he previously knew i was waiting for them to post it); bodeans are coming in aug; and i wanted to buy tickets. then i asked him if that was ok. but i do understand what you are saying about feeling a lack of control. i will look for ways to use those phrases, like what do you think?, as much as possible.

for that concert, the kids will be coming with us but, tickets for Eric Clapton go on sale tommorow. now i am the concert nut, he really is not, BUT he likes Eric Clapton a LOT, in fact he just bought his new cd last night. i like eric clapton a lot too, although i did not listen to him much when i was younger. H did and an Eric Clapton song was used in our wedding ceremony, Let It Grow. The Riding with the King and the the Reptile cd, which is one of my favorite cds now, made me more of a fan. Also the song Tears in Heaven, about his son's death, came out about the time our daughter died. In other words, Eric Clapton is an artist we BOTH like a lot for various reasons. I am going to try to get tickets online but i doubt they will be very good ones. So, i am going to try a broker this time and get some really good seats which will be costly but will be awesome. My concert crave period needs to quite down anyway.

over the last 2 yrs i have gone to so many, only a few with H (he didn't want to go), instead i've taken my daughter, my son multiple times, my sister, various girl friends, you get the idea. total it all up and i have spent a good amount of money, but that is ok, i make a good amount of money. H and I have talked a few times about paying more to get good seats and i have always said, i hate to pay too much for one concert, i'ld rather go to many concerts. H would rather go to just one concert and have really good seats. He has joked he only wants to go if the artist lets him sit back stage in a very comfortable seat.

well, this summer i think it's a good time to change that policy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> if we limit the number of concerts to just BoDeans and Eric Clapton, (ok, we already have tickets to Indigo Girls too and if Blues Travelers come to town, son and i HAVE to see them <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )we can spend the $ on some really excellent seats for Eric. Include a good dinner and maybe an over night hotel stay and we have the makings of a mini getaway.

uh, oh, am i going overboard here and already forgetting your suggestion about letting H control this stuff???? see my thoughts go a million miles/hr.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Escape with him from all this mess. Do you understand what I`m trying to say? You have to court eachother again. And that starts with fun alone with eachother. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ok, ok, i hear you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
One other thing lighten up a little..lol...Relax and enjoy this. I know that sounds strange, but. Its an amazing thing to watch your S fall back in love with you. Don`t be so worried that you miss it. He`ll be fine. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">all of this is so strange really. lighten up? relax?? how can it be i am suppose to relax? i cheated on my H!!!

inside, sometimes i feel so happy about this all being over, the lies, and about the chance we now have in front of us to really make an awesome marriage, but then i see his pain and i get sad, and then i think about how i have taken something away that i really can never give back, and i get sadder.

it really is all very confusing.

<small>[ April 16, 2004, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: FinallyLearning ]</small>

Hi FL, just a couple of comments. I see you`re a little stuck.

all of this is so strange really. lighten up? relax?? how can it be i am suppose to relax? i cheated on my H!!!

Because you have to. Your H sees the tension and pain in you. And everytime he sees it, it reminds him of the A. Which creates tension and pain in him.

inside, sometimes i feel so happy about this all being over, the lies, and about the chance we now have in front of us to really make an awesome marriage,

Happy that`s the key. EVERYONE wants happiness. You can`t be happy when you have a heavy heart. So lighten it up.

but then i see his pain and i get sad, and then i think about how i have taken something away that i really can never give back, and i get sadder.

And then he sees your pain and he gets sadder and tense. Its a vicious cycle. I was stuck in it for a long time. I know it well. Then one day my W says to me. "When was the last time we really laughed together?" I honestly could not remember when that was. So i said. "How about today?" Then we both broke into laughter and we have laughed at something every day since. That was our breakthrough. The tension between us was gone and the cycle of pain and sadness was broken.

Recovery then started to progress at light speed. Because we liked eachother again. We made eachother HAPPY again. No one can live in tension,pain and sadness all the time. That HAS to stop.

So when I say lighten up and relax this is what i`m talking about. And I don`t say it lightly...lol...

It was the KEY to our recovery.

Yup, relax is good - fun is good. He needs to heal before he'll be ready to talk about anything, and he needs a safe, loving environment in order to do that.

What JL said on the talking is true too. It used to drive me nuts that H and I didn't have tons to talk about all the time. Conversation is one of my top needs. But after getting back together and fixing much of the other stuff that was wrong in our relationship, I find that we talk plenty when we have stuff to talk about and we can sit in silence for hours COMFORTABLY when we don't! It's just nice to have the companionship.

It sounds like things are starting to turn around for you. I'm sure there will be some low spots again, but if you just hang in there and be patient and loving - I bet the two of you will make it through and have a better marriage in the end.

One question about the concerts. You said that it's not his favorite thing. Remember to meet his needs the way he needs them met. If you need time together but he doesn't like concerts, you'll be defeating the purpose. Find something that you BOTH can enjoy equally.

You're doing great!!

relax, have fun, this is all such good advice.

it is also something that i just don't know how to do.

i am still so very sad and nevrous inside more often than not. H is out of town right now. Sat night, the night he left was terrible. Sunday morning he told me on the phone that when he comes home, thurs, he wants to really focus on just moving forward. that he has a list of very concrete things i can do to help him move forward. he wants to wait until he is back before sharing the list. late last night we talked, it was pleasant. we have talked briefly twice today, i called him to say good morning, he called me when he had a few minutes of free time. both calls were pleasant.

but i have anxious feelings in my stomach still. like it's all going to fall apart into a million peices at any moment. and i personally cannot bear to fall apart into a million pieces again!!!!!

FL,

Please do me a favor. Stop and look at the data. Your marriage is falling apart. You want a divorce, you want to leave AND...your H steps up and for 2.5 years works his fanny off to rebuild the marriage.

HE SUCCEEDS, even while you are having an affair. He succeeds, you come back, you confess your A, he stays.

JUST WHAT in all of this makes you think that your H takes marriage lightly? Just what in all of this data suggests that your marriage is fragil? Just what in all of this suggests that you cannot be happy?

I think the data suggests that you cannot fear the marriage, you cannot fear your H, so is it you that causes the fear? If it is go to counseling to address this.

You called him in the morning, that is soooo nice. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You cannot imagine how it is traveling, and then to have your W call to wish you a good morning WOW. You are doing well. Your H is struggling but he is obviously thinking about rebuilding. He has a list of things for you to do. Why don't you surprise him and make up your own list of things you think will help him, will help you, and will help the marriage?

THEN you can compare notes and do a really good POJA because you have input from both sides. If you want a good marriage, take some lessons from your H, be proactive. Take this time to think about these issues, meet him half way, and give yourselves something concrete to talk about.

Step up FL, this marriage you have seems to be pretty rugged. So before you strip the tires off of it and shove it over a cliff, stop and realize you can get in it and drive it to the destination of choice. Your H has given you that choice by his work.

So stop, think, and look at what the data says. It says you CAN make this work better than ever.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

FL...Contrary to what you're feeling, I believe that you and H are definetely moving in a positive direction. He sounds like he is getting his thoughts together to finally sit down and really have a heart to heart. You be thinking about what things you want to say to him too, ok? You have a few days to make a list of your own!! Better get busy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> !!

JL, thanks for the post. i do have thoughts on it, i actually started responding much earlier tonight but then i hit the wrong button somehow and lost what i had typed. i didn't have the energy to try again and as much as i would like to try to now, i need to get some sleep!!

i just wanted to thank you for your post. i'll try to respond tommorow and i would appreciate your thoughts to what i say.

JL,

ok, so i have been looking at the data you presented. last night i was all prepared to present other data to support my fears about this marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> so is it you that causes the fear? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">that question has been rolling around in my head all day.

i think the biggest fear that i would say about my H is that i fear he is not really doing this because he likes me. I fear it is all about the family and the financial impact on him. i realize this might sound like an ugly thing to say about him, i am not trying to say anything ugly about him, i am just saying what is in my head, what i feel i am stuck on.

but then the more i reflected on your question, the more i thought you might have a good theory starting. if i think back to when i was a kid, i have always felt like i was not good enough and that i was just "riding a reputation". as an adult i see myself always trying to do more, donate more, work more, ...

i was a good kid really, i mean i was not perfect but i was pretty good. but i never got a sense of security from my parents and i always felt the need to prove to them that i was ok, and that i was loveable.

and here i am, still trying to convince myself i am loveable.

JL, like you said, i have to step up.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why don't you surprise him and make up your own list of things you think will help him, will help you, and will help the marriage?

THEN you can compare notes and do a really good POJA because you have input from both sides. If you want a good marriage, take some lessons from your H, be proactive. Take this time to think about these issues, meet him half way, and give yourselves something concrete to talk about.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">my first thought is: i can't do that, i cannot give him anymore requests of things i need him to do to help me. truth be told he has done most of them already!!

i can however think about what i can do for him and what we can do to help marriage. and maybe i need to even be prepared to tell him what would help me the most too.

i'm too tired to think about anything more tonight.

FL,

Now you are thinking!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> That is exactly what you need to do. Work on that list that you think will help him and perhaps your marriage. That will keep you busy.

I cannot say I fully understand you thinking about yourself, but I do understand what you are saying. However, again the data suggests that your self image is NOT what others see. Your H is still her with you, he worked his fanny off for two plus years to keep YOU. He is very discouraged right now, BUT he is still hanging in there.

Your kids love you, your H loved you, you Mom and Dad do/did. Seems to me you need to step back and really examine this. I am not a psych type, it seems to me you need to explain this to your H, and your current thinking. I think it is Dr. Phil that talks about "internal dialogue" and how it can really mess you up if it is NOT based on reality.

The reality is that you seem to have a good personality and you ARE a person that is well liked. I realize that on a site like this posters can deceive others, but I see many people here willing to help you. You come across as a very nice person. So more data suggests that your
"internal dialogue" is off. Or based on something that has passed many many years ago.

FL, you have what it takes to enthrall a man so much that he was/is willing to endure a lot of pain for you. It seems to me you have all the tools to make this marriage what it could be: a loving refuge for you, your H, and your family.

In the middle of all of the pain your H MAY be staying for the kids, but I have no doubt it won't be long before he is staying because of you. You stayed because of him didn't you???

Girl, you can do this. Heck you ARE doing this. So get with it and keep doing what you are doing. I think your H wants more than anything a woman that loves him. You are that woman aren't you, PLUS you are the mother of his children.

Work it, you are stronger and more powerful than you think.

God Bless,

JL

thanks JL, i am thinking. and if you followed the topic, Wat, what did you mean. you will know the top of the list for what i can do for him is finding concret ways to help him feel safe with me.

Like I said, i have always been very hard on myself, my one sister constantly tells me this, but i don't really listen to her. there is a book i have read called feeling good, it's main idea is to pay attention to your thinking and really evaluate if it is based on reality or not. thanks for pointing out your conclusions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In the middle of all of the pain your H MAY be staying for the kids, but I have no doubt it won't be long before he is staying because of you. You stayed because of him didn't you??? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yes i did, at times i felt it was JUST for the kids but deep down, i think it was always about him too.

thanks again, for everything.