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#1140704 05/27/04 04:15 PM
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It's amazing what you can learn if you pay attention.......and spend a little time thinking.

I had a dream two nights ago.

I was in a room with two of my sons, and another person I know. For some reason I was angry with the other man, angry enough that I wanted to kill him. He was behind a door leading to another room, and was holding the door. I was holding rifle, and pointing it at him (or at the door.) I was trying to swing the barrel over to him but he kept half shutting the door and knocking it away from pointing at him. I think I pulled the trigger once or twice but never came close to hitting him at all. Someone called the police - but it took some time for them to get there. My sons calmed me down, and I put down the gun and walked outside..........waiting for the police to come.

As I walked, I realized that I had just given up my freedom for a brief moment of anger, or insanity - call it what you will. I realized that I might not come out of prison alive - that I could die there. I wondered how and why that could happen. I wondered how I could be that short sighted. The police car arrived - The officer asked where the "problem" was, and I held out my hands. He had me turn around and he cuffed me. My mind continued to race, but I saw no way out of the situation that I HAD PLACED MY SELF IN. One of my sons told me he loved me - they put me in the back seat of the car.

At that point I woke up. I was very happy to be laying on my bed, beside my wife. I was happy it was only a dream, but I have continued to think about it.

I would like to draw two parallels.

The first -
How many Whiz's understand what they are doing when they take the first steps that lead to an A. How many understand the pain, and the loss of freedom. Once you pull the trigger, you can't go back. Even if the marriage recovers, you can't go back to the way it was before. I have thought a lot about it - how do you pre-warn someone? I think that is what religion attempts to do - I think it hurts others around us when we make bad choices, but I think it hurts us more than anyone else. A betrayed spouse can recover - and find happiness again, but how do you ever recover from the hurt you inflict internally? I know it can be done, but the cost is very high - and you can't go back and make up the time you lost - with your spouse - or with your children. That time is gone forever.

The second -
How many BS's close the cell door them selves by choosing to LB after D day rather than choosing to promote healing. Sometimes we are feel we can do nothing else - but all of us have choices. I wonder if we realize that we condition ourselves to certain responses - and that we can uncondition ourselves - and develop new responses. The wrong words spoken in anger can close the door on our marriage just as surely as the A does. Are we justified in that? Do two wrongs ever make a right?

Please understand, I am not trying to say anyone did it wrong. I am not pointing the finger, or saying someone should have done better. It's just that my dream got me to thinking, and I wondered if anyone else could do some thinking of their own, and perhaps change directions. I am hoping all of you out there can remain free - and avoid the slavery of bad decisions and actions.............. and words that can't be called back.

Part of my despair was realizing I had lost the companionship of my wife and children. I realized I would see them little, and then through bars, or glass. I realized that even if the judge was kind, and let me out early I had given up rights that I would never get back.

It is a wonderful thing that we have the ability to grow, and change, but I think it is easier to guard against some things than to recover from them. I have been thinking along those lines - how do I improve now, and not after some catastrophic failure brings something to my attention.

I get much of my code of conduct from my religion - I can hold on to the things I learn there, I can pray, and I can certainly follow the 4 rules of a successful marriage as taught by DR Harley.
All these things help me.

I suppose my question to you who read, is this:

Do you need to do anything different in your own situation?

SS

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ummm...aim better???


<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pretty cool analogy, SS! How's things with you?

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When do you think humans learn impulse control?

Is it ~entirely~ age related?

or

Experience related?

Is there possibly a genetic pre-disposition to impulsivity?

Some diseases effect impulse control. Many "substances" do... for sure.

But all that aside... if you only learned to control your destructive impulses by reading your religious materials... education, in other words...

Did you ever feel compelled to "test" the theory?

... edited to add ---> Or to test the theology?

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ May 27, 2004, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

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Part of the mourning that I have undergone over my husband's affair is that he can no longer say that he has always been faithful to me. That is gone, forever. He can never say that he did not break his vows. It is a loss of innocence that can never be recaptured.

That has been hard for me to come to grips with. I'm not sure how my husband feels about it. He is trying hard not to think about any of this anymore. He is busy putting it all behind him.

Of course, it does no good to stay trapped in this kind of thinking, and he is looking ahead, trying to live today in the right way by making right choices and by loving me as he should, and I am trying to do the same.

I have been stuck in what I refer to as a "dark place". Until recently, I had a hard time accepting the changes that I saw in my husband as he tried so hard to "make things right" between us. I know that it was ugly of me, but I needed to punish him some, first, before I could accept his loving overtures. Finally, I seem to have gotten a handle somewhat on my thoughts and emotions, and realize that I CAN choose to stay in this place of suffering, or I can graciously accept the gift of my husband's renewed love for me, and get on with making a NEW life for us.

No, things will never be the same again. We lost some things, but I am holding onto the hope that while things will be different, they will also be BETTER!

I'm now into my fourth month since Dday. This has been the roughest road that we've ever had to travel, but I'm thankful that now, we are traveling it together.

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Hope4future -

ummm...aim better???

Ok, you made me laugh, and I admit it. As dreams go, it was pretty vivid - I remember being really angry, and during the dream I kind of wondered why, but I seemed so angry that anything I did was justified. I have no idea what I was angry about - and probably it goes with what my main problem used to be - AO's and DJ's.

I was pretty thoughtful when I woke up, and glad I missed - even though it was just a dream. I also remember thinking when they cuffed me, "at least I never actually hurt him, and I can be glad for that."


Pretty cool analogy, SS! How's things with you?

Life is sweet. My W loves me, my children honor me, and love me, and I have never taken out bankruptcy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Some things are still hard, but that (in moderation) seems to be good for me. We have two grand children now, and my W delights in calling me "grandpa" in front of everyone. I don't even care. I still remember how to change diapers - and burp them, and make them laugh. At night their parents take them home, it's kind of fun.

I have been wanting to ask you the same - but I see you post from time to time and your wisdom increases - and you seem calm, and in charge of your emotions - so I figure you are OK. Would like to know how you are doing with your goal of changing professions. Would like to know how S is doing, and how well H can meet your needs these days. It seems like he was really catching on well last time you reported on it. Do you have any reflections to share with us?


Pepper -

When do you think humans learn impulse control?

I am 48 years old, and from my limited experience, I would say it begins in the first year after birth, and is ongoing. Much of it relates to the peer group that we admire and are comfortable belonging to. You can look at your son's experiences to see that is true. We tailor our responses to what that group will accept.

Is it ~entirely~ age related? or Experience related?

I think it is mostly experience related - but I don't know.......I have one son that seemed to "get it" at around 15 years old. He didn't seem to need to experience everything to believe it, and he was more careful to listen and apply what we said about many, but not all things. When he was 17 he was invited on an all adult big wall climb (stay over night in porta-ledges on the cliff, and the whole bit) where any mistake could cost someone their life, but the report I got is that he did not make a single mistake. That took great control on his part - and he had to listen carefully, over ride his natural fear and do things correctly in every case. I do think we bring some of it with us when we are born.


Is there possibly a genetic pre-disposition to impulsively?

Have you seen any studies on this one? I am not educated enough to have an answer for you. Some people are more inclined than others - but is that genetics, or the spirit part of us?

Some diseases effect impulse control. Many "substances" do... for sure.

Yes, when our spirit looses the connection to, and the control of our body - whether by disease, or by being substance impaired, there is no longer any restraint, and the natural part of us often makes us seem a fool by our actions. I think we can train our selves to have better control by thought and practice. My big problem (when I came to MB) was LB's - but my W says given another 50 years, she can probably train them out of me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Actually, she says I am doing much better - and she shows it too. I think I like the upward spiral much better than the downward one.


But all that aside... if you only learned to control your destructive impulses by reading your religious materials... education, in other words...

Did you ever feel compelled to "test" the theory?


There were many things I did not understand when they were first taught to me. "Love thy neighbor" was kind of foreign to me when I was - say 8 or 9 years old. I tended to look out for #1. Part of what must be learned is how to be unselfish - and there is a whole lot that goes with that. If you really love others, you tend to look for ways to help them, even when you are attacked. It's not just impulse control, it is changing your mind set, learning to care for others because they have great worth as fellow human beings - not because they are nice or not nice to you. Sometimes I think the best anger management is to learn to love our fellow men - though there are habits that must be changed to get good responses instead of harmful ones.

So, to get back to the question - I don't think I was compelled to test it for testing sake, so much as I had trouble understanding and applying some things. The lessons were all around me if I was willing to open my eyes. For instance - this one from Galations:

6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

In my early teen years I could see this one was valid - though some things didn't happen in real time.
The more I observed, the more the rules held true - and there seemed to be something inside me that kept me from open rebellion too. I had those feelings, but I always resisted them and over time they went away.


... edited to add ---> Or to test the theology?

If a person is attentive they can put it to the test by watching others as well as living it in person. Also, there is this one from John:
7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
You can learn from doing it right as well as from doing it wrong. I did do some things wrong, but I did some things right too - and that kept me from major mistakes. The more I did right, the better it felt, and the more I wanted to continue. We learn some of that from helping on MB. Sure, there are many reasons we are here - but it feels good to help others, and you know what I mean. We live out the parable of the good Samaritan, and we put oil in our lamps, drop, by drop so as to be ready when called.

Thanks Pep, it is good for me to put some things into words.


Marie -

You sound like you are in recovery - I hope it works for you both. You can get the trust back in time - though you will do well to live open lives so that the doubts never have a chance to creep back in. Ack, I had more but my mind won't get it out this late, Perhaps I ought to go to sleep.

It is tough sometimes isn't it. You sound like you are over the worst - I really hope so, and all the best to you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

SS

<small>[ May 28, 2004, 12:56 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

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SS,

Good to hear from you. You are one of the stable guiding lights that have helped sooo many. I still picture you handing out cups of lemon water to the runners as they pass by your station. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Dreams are powerful tools. Sometimes they bring up deep seated feelings. It can be a healing tool.

For me, a dream about G Clooney (ok go ahead and laugh), then T Cruise (ok, laugh again) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> , helped me realize, I wasn't the loser the OW and at the time the WS thought I was. Neither was I the discarded one. I was the one who was wronged but not the one who would remain down trodden.

From that dream, I was able to tell the WS to go get the D. I was able to stand up and move forward. It wasn't easy but it was now doable. It was a turning point for me. A lesson learned.

I believe you had one of those lesson learned moments also, eh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hugz,
L.

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::::How many BS's close the cell door them selves by choosing to LB after D day rather than choosing to promote healing. Sometimes we are feel we can do nothing else - but all of us have choices. I wonder if we realize that we condition ourselves to certain responses - and that we can uncondition ourselves - and develop new responses.

I was on a breast cancer forum for years. I would see women there who were down and out and I'd see women who were having chemo, and working all day, with little kids at home and a poor prognosis for their long term survival - and they'd be telling the group to buck up and think of all the things they have to be grateful for.

Some people are like that. Positive, positive, positive. I have never been like that. (well I was qutie positive when I discovered the A!) We are all different. My daughter broke up with her long term boy friend and is not fully recovered 2.5 yrs later. She is so much like me. I believe we have the same genetic make up and we take things to heart terribly. I'm 19 months into recovery and I'm having a lot of trouble still. I'm still having days where I think ending my life is the only option (I feel so black about going on). I'm much worse when PMS hits. In fact the A has revitalized my PMS to dizzy new heights.

So, though I am really, really trying to work out what to do to help myself be better, I believe some of us suffer more because of our emotional disposition. That and what my H did was significantly less attractive to the usual A (if you can call any A attractive). He went from being the best of men, to being amongst the poorest of men. (very sleazy situation he got involved in).

I also think the LB is about sorting stuff out. I actually don't want to be like this - but I seem to be dictated to by overwhelming dark moods - that sap every piece of joy out of me, and turn my H into Jack the Ripper. I like your post about trying to jolly us around - but sometimes it's not that simple. Most of us want to be better.

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Oh shoot - I'm just GREAT! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Been so darn busy trying to juggle everything. I was taking a class on leadership that lasted 9 months. It was REALLY worth it. Met a lot of new people - many of them are up and coming in the community. Good people to know! But I am glad it's over and I SWORE to my H that I'm not taking ANYTHING MORE for another year. I took a position in our local Chamber of Commerce board which lasts 3 years - so I'll have plenty to keep me busy for a while. I've been on a couple of other committees too - but they're shorter term.

The business - darn it. I kind of goofed up. I took my really awesome business plan and put it in to action - and now it's working. GO FIGURE! Did I tell you I entered it in a statewide contest and won second place?? I ran around yelling "I'm number 2! I'm number 2!!" I know it's just a business plan, but it was such a big thing for me - because it WAS a lot of work...and I ACTUALLY finished it! That's quite an accomplishment for my personality type. It's started a domino affect and now I want to finish TONS of stuff I've started in the past! Anyway, the business, when actually run correctly, made money for a month! June and July are usually my slow months - but since our nice weather started early (end of april) so did the slow business! So we're just making ends meet right now (which normally we wouldn't come close to doing!), but come fall I bet I can start paying off some of my start up debt again. I think we're going to really do pretty good. I am STILL doing it with the focus that one day I'm going to sell it. But for now, if it pays I'm going to keep it so I can get my debt all paid off! I wouldn't HAVE debt if only I would have had that class sooner <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> But it has been a GREAT learning experience. I actually added in a learning lab (which I've ALWAYS wanted to do) of 6 computers - so I'm trying to put together class outlines and handouts and start up some basic learning, computer classes this summer.

I'm still working with Penny on becoming a mentor. It's been a slow process with all that I had going on before - but since Summer is slow I'm going to try to focus some of that time in to learning! I know, without a doubt, that I want to take some of the courses on coaching. It's EXACTLY the skills I've always wanted to learn - and the more I learn the more I think I'm MADE to be a coach. My personality type just fits it! It's a little frustrating at times to have so much in the air, with no real set goal as to completion for anything - but I'm just not prepared to give anything up just yet, and I figure I have PLENTY of time! I'm not going anywhere!

Son went to Kindergarten round up the other day and LOVED it. HE'S definatly ready to head to school this fall - I'm not! Did you realize that these children have to be to school by 8AM!!! MY GAWD! I'm going to have to get up by 7 or SOONER! Sheesh...that's hard on a NOT MORNING person. Ahhh well...we'll adapt, just like everyone else. I figure the plus side will be that I'LL be in work at a regular time each morning, so maybe I'll get more done. As it is now - it's often 10 before I get there! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Spring and summer mean gardening for me. I'm finally reaping the benefits of the last 3 years of planting stuff! We're bloomin all over the place this year! I LOVE IT! Hubby has commented several times on how much he likes how everything is looking!

Hubby is doing great! We had a good harvest last fall, and this spring has (so far) been good for our crops. He's been doing very well at meeting my needs - but my needs have been pretty easy to meet, too. I don't know what it is, but I'm just so darn satisfied and happy with life that I just don't feel like I need all that much. It's really funny how the less I focused on what it was I wanted - the more I actually feel like I have! He questions me every now and then - and when I tell him that "Yes, I'm sure I don't need such and such, or sure, that sounds fine, or I don't mind" he looks at me like "really???" I know in the past I would often say I was fine with something and then pout because I had REALLY hoped he would read my mind and do the opposite - but these days I just really DON'T MIND! I used to focus on gifts for Mothers Day, Birthday, Christmas....now I just want to get my debt paid off and maybe be taken out for a nice dinner. He's noticed the changes and seems more comfortable with giving more - even though I don't need it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> It's an all new and improved circular dance! Much more fun!

So anyway, that's my novel. Life is just good good good. On a sad note - and a bit of a trigger today - I heard that a town in NE was wiped out last week from a massive tornado. An ENTIRE TOWN. I'm going to see if we can't do something to help them this weekend. I really feel like as good as life is for me - I need to give back to those who's life is in a place I remember all too well.

Thanks for asking, GRANDPA! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

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I am loving your answers....

Thanks you from the bottom of my heart!

Pep

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I only have a minute - and I am leaving for the weekend. I will come back next week and comment on things you have said - thanks to those who stopped in and left comments of your own.

SS


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