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SD,
Thanks for the heads-up. I do need to think of that possibility. I've decided to back off on that subject.

I haven't gotten into the book yet, but read parts of it here on the MB site. I actually thought I was following what I'd read here -- that one of the first steps is to remove the OP.

I'm trying to do what I think is Plan A and would appreciate any advice. Trying to keep our conversations friendly and non-confrontational, mainly small talk. For two days there's been no talk of the possible A. I'm letting him choose to go there or not. Am staying calm and diffusing possible arguments which he periodically attempts.

I set up the recorder in the studio last night to record their conversation this morning before he left on a 14 hour day trip while she stays here. A lot of the words were muffled and I didn't hear anything incriminating...I wish there was a way to slow down the tape, I might be able to understand more.

Did notice an attitude change. After OW arrived about 7 AM, he got dressed, came back into our bedroom and asked me what my plans were for the day. When I said I wasn't sure, he became verbally antagonistic. Later, after spending nearly an hour in the studio with her, he came back into the house and was very sweet, complimentary of me, and said he'd call when he was on his way home. How should I interpret his change? Was he being genuinely nice or was it because of something that happened in the studio?

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haywire, this is very typical. The WS (wayward spouse) has to justify how "bad" you are to themselves to allow the A to take place. They will often "rewrite the history of your entire marriage" to deceive themselves into perceiving that they've had a bad rap all this time.

Often they will become antagonistic, provoking confrontation, as you have described, so they can continue to convice themselves how "bad their marriage is". Deflecting the confrontations is exactly the correct thing to do. Turn lemons into lemonade, and don't let him engage you into negative actions or words. This is a part of Plan A.

The immediate change you saw, is a result of getting his "fix" of the OW (other woman). Think of him right now as a "crack addict". He is addicted to how he feels about himself when he is with her, or under her influence. He knows, way down deep inside that it is wrong, it is bad for him, it is destructive, but the addiction will not allow him to just stop this behavior. You will see this state of behavior referred to as "in the fog".

Getting rid of the OP (other person) IS part of the plan, but it has to take place ideally when irrefutable evidence is in place. That is when the confrontation should take place, and according to the guidelines in SAA. At the same time, exposure should take place. Read all of that carefully and understand how it works. It is really important to do it "by the book".

You sound very well composed right now, and are keeping clear of allowing emotions to drive you to do impulsive and perhaps foolish things. Keep this frame of mind, and things will be in your control. If your emotions begin to drive your actions, your efforts may be undone.

Stay strong and stay with the program! You can do this!

SD

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Thanks SD. If he's addicted, it's probably been for a very long time. The first time I questioned their relationship was when he gave her a puppy, who is now about 7 or 8 years old. I didn't trust my gut then -- let him convince me that I was over-reacting when I was upset about it.

If his addiction stretches back that far, will it be that much tougher to break?

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haywire, I wish I could answer that one, but I can't . If there has been a deep emotional attraction for a long time, it could take longer to heal.

Your H could be hit pretty hard with withdrawal, once you expose and No Contact begins, so everything you do now in Plan A will be to your benefit.

Don't get me wrong. Plan A is NOT EASY. And it may take a considerable amount of time to get through recovery.

But let's take things one step at a time, and get the evidence you need to confront, and the knowledge to do all this properly.

This will take all the committment you can muster for the foreseeable future!

SD

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Well, I'm going to give it my best shot. Thank God I found MB or I probably would have gone ballistic by now.

Exposure is going to be very difficult because of the situation. I don't think phone records will prove anything because of their working relationship and he admits they're friends. I don't even know what a PI could find -- if they see them going into the same hotel it's not going to prove anything, they could be in separate rooms. His excuse for checking into only one room on some of their trips is that she shared a room with another woman who he reimbursed.

I guess my best hope is the recorder, but it makes me nervous. I'm just not a very good snoop!

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haywire

And of course there is a receipt to prove that the other woman was reimbursed, right?

At this point in time, do not believe anything to be true that you haven't personally verified. As I said before, trust your gut, and verify all that you are told.

The book is a fairly easy read, and you'll learn an immense amount from it. People here will help with questions you may have.

I am "working" today, very light day, and am not able to post much during busy times.

God bless!

SD

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SD, of COURSE there's a receipt! I just can't seem to find it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Thanks so much for all your help, especially during work....I'll get into that book today hopefully. Take care.

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Haywire,

Your thread said: "I've said that when an employee becomes an issue in a marriage they need to move on. We've even talked about a job that's available for her where she'd make more money than she does now.

He said that if she goes, he goes. He'll not be with her but he'll leave because he can't live with his conscience if he has to let her go. He tells me that she's done nothing wrong -- she shouldn't have to suffer for my insecurity. And he says he's done nothing wrong except neglect me. I've told him that it's his choice. That I don't want him to leave, but that she needs to move on."</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This part really stood out to me. Here's the foggy part: She can get a better job but he'll leave you because he can't live with his conscience to let her go???? He doesn't want her to get a better job and will hold her hostage in her present job for whose sake?!??

IMHO, asking him to have her leave for the sake of your M is NOT an overreaction. His desire to keep her hostage shows obbessive qualities.

You should not apologize for your actions. You should keep your radar up. His EA is deeper rooted than you are both admitting to right now. I recommend you get with Steve Harley and do some serious phone counseling. If your H won't join you, you do it for you.

take care,
L.

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Oh Orchid, I think it IS a very deep and strong EA. You asked "for whose sake"? It's his. And hers. They're addicted. A few years ago he did let her know of a better job that was available but she didn't take it.

Do you think I shouldn't back down? The other advice I got was that it was too soon, that I needed solid proof to require her to leave. (I posted about this in my "lemon" thread) I expect he'll bring up the subject again very soon, maybe tonight. What to do?

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Haywire,

I think Orchid is on the right path with her thinking.
Don't apologize (or as you say...make lemonade).

Lets be honest: This relationship is a problem for YOU and your M, whether there is an A going on or not.
IT is inappropriate and unhealthy for your M, no matter what is proven or not.

(Although from your description it does appear certain that at the minimum an EA is going on, and very likely a PA as well).

In any case, since this woman IS a problem, you are well within your rights to ask that she leave your family and circle.
So good for you for Standing up for yourself!

Could you have handled it a bit differently?
Of course, by getting some actual proof.
(You can still go after the proof, but as was my difficulty, its very hard to accomplish when they work together and anything that usually would be evidence, can be explained away as "work related") Tough place to be.

But that is secondary now. You've spoken your mind and gotten what NEEDS to be done out in the open.
Since you've already started down this path, I see little reason to start back tracking now.
YOU Know this needs to be done. So stick to your guns.

The posters stating that sexual harassment is a possibility are correct. There is that option for her.
However, if there is a PA, then she can make that claim and that case against your H NO matter WHEN he fires her. That is simply a fact and a Risk HE just didn't take into consideration. But nothing can be done about that now.
So he may end up facing some consequences from this down the road.
Unfortunately, keeping her around & involved with your H Won't take that threat away.

There is just no way that delaying her "leaving" is going to influence whether she sues or not.
She is NOT going to be happy with leaving NO Matter WHEN he lets her go.
So just try to get a handle on that reality right now.

YOUR other option is to just let this continue indefinitely. Cause that's the only thing that is going to make both OW and H happy. That is, For things to remain at status quo.

We know this is just not a choice for you.

Sorry to write that there are No guarantees once one starts down this path.
ON the other hand, you can guarantee that you will continue to be miserable and upset IF conditions remain the same.

Wishing you success in saving your M.
Take care

<small>[ July 04, 2004, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: top rope ]</small>

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Thanks Top Rope,
Yes I am going to stick to my guns. It feels Right. I'm going work toward it calmly and with care. Hopefully it will be a "positive" move for her job-wise. Maybe he will leave too. I truly hope he stays but if he leaves, I will live with it. I know this is right.

I also know that if he stays and the A continues, it will be much easier to prove. The situation as it is now makes most of the usual discovery methods useless as you know.

Believe it or not after all this came up, he complained about the cost of hotel rooms and said he's thinking of buying an RV!!! I said, "for yourself???" and he said, no, I'll get one with 2 levels, I can stay upstairs and our daughter and/or OW can stay in the downstairs room.

Of course, our daughter would not choose to stay there, she shares hotel rooms with friends so... I can't even fathom how thick his fog is!

About the possibility of a sexual harrassment charge -- I don't know the legal consequences, but I do know that it wouldn't hurt his business. It would if the OW was younger than she is, closer to 20 or less, but at her age, no one in his business would bat an eye. It happens to so many married couples in that arena, and usually ends with the WH together with the OW (for a few years).

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He brought up the subject of her leaving again. She must have told him how I seemed fine with her on Sunday, so he assumed I was "over it" and that she doesn't have to go. I let him know that nothing has changed in that department. She needs to go.

Trying to keep this from becoming an LB - a selfish demand which is how he wants to see it. So I repeated that he should try to find her a new job. This time he didn't threaten to leave if she leaves. He did say -- this is going to take some time. He said he doesn't expect it to be done within 60 or even 90 days....

Any advice on setting a time limit without turning it into an LB?

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haywire,

See chicken little, you didn't back down .........and the sky isn't even falling! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Imagine that.

Better yet, it appears your H is the one who is backtracking on his position.
Sure Its not all you'd want, but at least its a start. We start with the small battles and work from there.

As far as your question:
(hopefully you'll get more responses to it) but this is my gut advise:

If you are agreeing that he can "help" her find a new job.....and provided you can put up with the further contact between them....then I'd say handle the time limit something like this:

If he says it could take even more then 90 days....fine.. select a higher number.
(Keep in mind it can be Less!)
Your choice, but let's just use 120 days as an example.
You tell him he has that amount of time (a grace period) to Find this OW a new job.
However, once this time period has elapsed, (whatever it is you decide your comfortable with) she GOES .......with/without another position.

I fear if you Don't lay down some type of time frame that they will just both use that as an excuse and a cover to continue on ....Indefinitely.
They will just keep claiming that "Oh, haven't found anything yet. But we'll still spend every day together looking!" (yea, right).

There has to be a dead line (or what's the point)?

Next, be sure to always be asking (even daily) what the progress is.
Yes, you want him to notice that you meant what you said and ARE going to hold him to the agreement.
When he gets annoyed remind him that once he Finds her a job and she leaves, you'll stop asking.

A caution:
Being reasonable can easily turn into being a doormat or being "played" and abused by these 2.
So your going to be walking a fine line by not insisting this END Immediately.
Since this is the path you've chosen, just be careful not to slip into being an enabler.

In addition, go in knowing that this approach, while seeming to be less painful, will be in effect more so, because of the long drawn out nature of your having to be hurt (by seeing/knowing they are together).
A sudden stoppage although more painful (& fearful) intially....gets it all over more quickly.

Also another warning:
Just don't set yourself up for a fall, by letting them use this Time your being "reasonable" about to somehow turn the tables on you.
This is a risk you face by giving them months to talk, plot and even if they are sincere now.....to decide on changing their minds (about being separated).
Sorry, but this IS a possibility. They easily could just be stalling for time.

Unfortunately, there are NO guarantees in any of this.

Yes, I understand your reasons for this approach.
If you can pull it off, then go for it.
I just want to state for the record that MY position is for the A partners to be separated at once. There's not any good that comes from continued contact (except a deeper connection to break). Be very careful here.

YOUR H has already backtracked (the very 1st time you stood up for yourself).
I suspect he will do even More if properly "motivated".
He just needs to see that you are strong and "Mean" what you say.
Hence the reason for you to ONLY say what you WILL actually do.

As always, wishing you success in what ever decisions you decide upon.

Anyway, There you go. Hope it helps.
Take care......your doing fine so far.

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Tonight I asked him how the job-search was going and he said, it's not happening. He's not going to do that. After that I blew it. I'm sure I did some LBing. No, I can't live this way. I didn't ask him to leave. But I don't think there's much chance of saving our marriage.

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Be patient and keep working on this. You are in a difficult situation, but not impossible.

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I don't know what the options are, Believer. Unless he has a change of heart, I don't see how this marriage can survive.

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One thing that I'm wondering about is have you thought about how you will feel if it is discovered that your H has been having sex with OW for 7 or 8 years? I'm a long time married (30 yrs) BS and I've only got a 10 week A to contend with - and that's proving very difficult to deal with, on my side. There's another lady here called Pussywillows who's been married 35 yrs and 13 months ago she discovered an 8 yr A her H was having. She's been really quite devistated by the thought of such duplicity.

If you are anything like me, you don't want to let the OW get your H. But if you get him away from her, do you really want him? I think I wanted to make sure the OW didn't get my H before I decided whether I wanted him or not. Anyway, this is all somewhat premiture.

I'm also thinking that "fools rush in where angels fear to tread". This business is full of wisdom in hindsight. It's been going on a long time, so what's to lose to read and talk with a few different perspectives on this? I'm thinking a reliable hit man! Oops. Not helpful! It's just that when I was dealing with my situation, I was still a really nice person. I got few rewards for that. Later I realised I should have been much tuffer. But still later I realised I should have been much smarter. It took a long time for me to think out what I should have done and what might have worked (I just wanted to get rid of the OW living next door - and I didn't achieve that and 20 months later she's still there and if I'd thought it thru properly I could have achieved my goal thru enginuity. "there's more than one way to skin a cat"! So think carefully, and take your time. You might be a long while regretting the rush to fix a problem that needed a lot more time spent in the planning.

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Haywire,

Sorry for his attitude (not unexpected, but one can always hope for the best).

First, other then coming here to the discussion forum are you versed in the Harley's principles?

I believe it was shattered dreams that lead you to "Surviving an Affair"?
You wrote you were looking for it.  Have you gotten a copy yet?
If so, have you read it?
YOU NEED This!  It will give you so much insight.
Knowledge in this arena is definitely power.
With it You can anticipate his actions and head your H off, IF you know what is coming and how BEST to react to it.
It also lets you be in the drivers seat, not them.
In addition, it lets YOU prepare your emotions to all the chaos that is coming, INSTEAD of just Reacting to things as they come.

Now form your plan of action. (There are many others out there that are more "masters" at these plans then I, So Be Sure to go and seek out their well thought out advise).

Begin immediately to plan A your butt off.
Avoid the LBusters and continue to read up on what to expect and how to react to it.
Come here if (when) you need to VENT!
As this emotional  attachment appears  very deep, begin to mentally prepare your self for going into a plan B. (As it may end up coming to that, given the strong emotions at play here).

Continue to tell H that you want him, want to work and heal YOUR M, but that this OW staying in your lives is just unacceptable and always will be. Be as calm as you can and simply state it as a matter of FACT, Not something to negotiate.

That's all you can control: You and your actions. Your H will then have his own choices to make.

Its either that or get used to staying as miserable as you've been with the status quo.

Sorry to hear he's continuing to flip flop. However, Read up......that's normal.
Of course he doesn't want this to end.
HE will use ANY and All tactics to make his "little world" stay in tact. He's been enjoying himself, and being selfish, therefore he doesn't see any reason for it to end.

He'll threaten.
He'll rage.
He'll even try to bargain.
He'll stall for time.
He'll try to make you feel guilty.
He'll try to put you on the defensive.
He'll try to make you think YOUR crazy.
He'll continue to lie... and more

All normal (but never pleasant), When your on the receiving end.

However, if you read up, you will know what's coming, be prepared for it & better be able to control your responses to HIS irrational behavior.
Cause most of what your going to go through WON'T make ANY sense (at least not to straight clear thinking people).
So get out there, get to arming yourself with knowledge (it the only way you can make a clear path and plan for yourself) and stay sane.

We are pulling for you, but its up to you to do the work. Just continue to come here for support and to vent. Always remember that We want you to make it.
It may seem hopeless at times, but it is possible to get through this.
NOT easy but possible.
At any rate you have to go through process, even if only to heal and save yourself (regardless of the outcome of the M).

Take care and start getting this crucial info. for yourself.
Its the best investment in your M you can make.
till next time

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Wow, what a long tale.

I was stuck in the situation with little to go on other than some emails and nights out.

What I told my WH, and is different from the policy here, but it worked for me, "I feel there is an A going on with you and OW, you tell me there is not, unless I see proof from you to the contrary I will assume I am right." And I flatly walked away from the situation, he knew I meant it and that's about all that was said, I didn't stay long enough for him refute it...he could only use words anyway.

How has Plan A been? And how long do you need to keep it up? Have you talked with other people in the industry to find out what is going on? D to find out what she knows? It's OK to hire a PI, you may be surprised how open they are with each other when they are out of town...

Plan B will be very difficult because to keep him away from you he would have to be locked out of his studio, or you move away, which gives he and OW carte blanche.

What are your plans for Plan b?

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Thanks to all for writing.

Anyname, that's a good question -- would I really want him if he's been in an A for years? I don't really know right now. I thought we still had a deep love that had been neglected by both of us, but the more he says the more I realize that I really don't mean much to him. That hurts, but I'm starting to accept it. You're right, I need to check my emotions and take my time with this. Do it right. That's hard to do! But messages like yours sharing your hindsight help so much. Today I spoke with a PI and am putting together a plan. He said I seem very calm compared to most people he speaks to. I think I am staying pretty calm -- on the outside...guess it comes with age! Also this MB is a huge help.

top rope, thanks for the push...I got a copy of SAA and will force myself to read it over the next few days. I know I need to read it and learn.

StillHereMakingIt, I'm working on Plan A but it's tough. Maybe I'll get better at it after I read SAA. I haven't set a time limit yet....any advice? Yes, I've asked D what she knows. She said she only knows that she's sure they've been staying in the same room. She confronted the OW about it and in D's words -- "she lied to my face". D and another close friend in the industry told me that they're always being asked if there's an A going on between H and OW. (What a horrible thing for a daughter to be asked!)... As mentioned above I spoke with a PI today...Surveillance will begin soon hopefully. I haven't thought much about Plan B yet...Talking with the PI, he said that in a D Court, if it comes to that, it will be better for me if he moves out on his own (abandonment) especially if there is proof of an A.

How sad this all is.

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