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#1177721 08/26/04 01:15 PM
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Deut,

Wanted to discuss your marital reconciliation plan. Come on by...

#1177722 08/26/04 07:35 PM
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Er... plan? Maritial reconciliation?

It's currently kind of up in the air.

In fact... somehow... and I'm sitting here reeeeeling...

I'm back in limbo again.

Lonely, confused, without direction. Lost.

I know for sure that I can't go on like this. I wish I could say I was a man with infinite integrity and unending stregnth, but clearly I have my limits.

If I had an option that seemed feasible, perhaps I could base a plan on that.

But ultimately the ball for reconciliation is in Dylan's court.

dewt

#1177723 08/27/04 06:23 AM
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Deut,

Your wife is currently at home with you. She's been hurt by your recent betrayals (sleeping with xW, girlfriends). You are still dating someone.

How is the ball in her court, exactly? Because she's scared of attempting a reconciliation with you? Look objectively at your behavior and see if you can't figure this out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lonely, confused, without direction. Lost.

I know for sure that I can't go on like this. I wish I could say I was a man with infinite integrity and unending stregnth, but clearly I have my limits. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wish you had infinite integrity and unending strenght too. In fact, I'd take you behaving with a smidgeon of integrity and a tiny bit of strength---but you don't seem to be able to muster even that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I had an option that seemed feasible, perhaps I could base a plan on that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've given you a feasible option time and time again that is plan-centric. Here it is, one more time.

1. Stop your affair. No more dating. Commit to this for at least one year. You are worse than an alcoholic when it comes to women, and you're going to continually destroy lives until you get a grip on this.

2. Start making regular appointments with Penny to work on a plan for marital reconstruction. Ask Dylan to join you. Empathize with your wife's obvious pain and mistrust of your actions---and do not attempt to push your taker's agenda on a short timeframe.

3. Be committed to this program, and have the patience to let it work. The more patience (less pushing) you employ, the faster your progress will be. It's essential that you not push Dylan, but rather lead with good marital behavior.

4. And on the subject of good marital behavior, that means no women (again). No XW. No girlfriend. No bars. Nothing.

Its my very learned and wise opinion (cough, cough) that you have one more shot at this, in a very limited time frame. If you don't take this opportunity now, but instead keep up with your typical behavior and patterns---I can pretty much guarantee you that you will have a miserable rest-of-your-life existance on this earth. Failed relationship after failed relationship. Teaching your son these patterns so he can be doomed too. Destroying your wife.

You are married, deut. You need to grow up and act like it---without assigning the blame for your inexcusable, abysmal behavior on your wife. You have the plan in understandable terms above you. Your next step is to call Penny and set up an appointment.

<small>[ August 27, 2004, 07:25 AM: Message edited by: K ]</small>

#1177724 08/27/04 09:27 AM
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Dewt,

Have you ever read or heard of the book 'Every Man's Battle' by Steve Arterburn? It sounds like you struggle with a lot of the issues that are talked about in this book. You can check out the web site at http://everymansbattle.com/

I'm a serious old timer and I remember you and Dylan from way back. I'm sorry that y'all are still going through this chaos.

My prayers are with you family.

VL/Jodi

#1177725 08/27/04 10:49 PM
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K,

First and foremost, and with all due respect, statements like, "In fact, I'd take you behaving with a smidgeon of integrity and a tiny bit of strength---but you don't seem to be able to muster even that." are not only hurtful, but also untrue. A smidgeon, I've mustered... and a little more besides.

As for Dylan being scared to face reconciliation with me... well, uh, I can relate. It's like she's so wrapped up in her judgement of me that she refuses to look at herself and her own actions. This is not the atmosphere that will enable me to show good maritial behaviour. In fact, I think we can safely assume that this type of atmosphere will bring me to an emotional place that is overwhelmingly conducive to disastrous choices.

Your plan is a good one. One that I would willingly undertake providing that Dylan took certain steps too. And made certain commitments. And that's a whole 'nuther post... but I'm so dead serious about this. I will not set myself up in a situation that I know will end in a train wreck. I can't afford anymore trainwrecks.

And this is not about me having one more shot at this. If it is, then I must respectfully decline the opportunity to fail again. If, however this is about us having one more shot... well, I'm all ears. But without her stepping up and meeting me at the plate, there really and truly isn't much point in dragging this out.

And also... I don't blame Dylan for this situation. I don't blame Dylan for my behaviour. I don't blame my mom or dad... I make my own decisions. Nobody I know has that much control over me that they can make my decisions for me. Can we settle this particular thing once and for all? Please?

Jodi, thanks for popping in. Yes, I've checked out their website, but I don't think it's for me. Not to say that there aren't things I could benefit from, this is really not about sexual temptation for me... that sort of temptation is more of a symptom than a cause. Nonetheless, I am trying to be more involved with my church and hope that will help me find and keep some clarity.

dewt

#1177726 08/28/04 06:59 AM
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Deut--

I also remember you guys from way back, and have followed this whole sorry mess. I feel for you and Dylan both...you are both hurting.

There's plenty of blame and fault for you both, with some leftover. But none of that matters really. All that matters is what the two of you choose to do today, and the next, and the next...

K has outlined 4 pretty clear steps, and I am in total agreement with them. I also agree that you likely have a window of opportunity here, that will not be here forever. I urge you to take it. Not simply because your current behavior, if continued, isn't going to lead to a happy life for you...but also because I truly believe you and Dylan care deeply for each other, and can help each other thru al this.

You speak of needing certain things from Dylan to be able to commit to following K's suggestions for you. So let me ask...what do you feel you need?

Kathi

#1177727 08/28/04 08:24 AM
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Hey Dewt -

This is OT to this thread but wanted to say I got out the bible my friend recently gave to me and read the passages from Mathew that you have in your sig line, and this forgiveness of others trespasses to us is pretty serious stuff. Needed to read that this morning, so thank you for that.

I appreciate what K and the others are trying to do to help you and Dylan, you and are both very nice, likeable people judging from your posts. so it is easy to see why others so much want to see your marriage survive and thrive. I wish you and Dylan both the best and hope that you can find peace.

I too am interested in Kathi's question to you regarding what it is exactly that Dylan needs to do to get you to follow K's four step plan that he has outlined for you.

Weaver

#1177728 08/28/04 11:02 PM
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Deut,

I'm sorry if you find these posts hurtful, but I will not mollycoddle you with praise for your behaviors. You know that I feel you talk a very good game, but that your actions are sorely lacking. And that personally drives me crazy---because I know you're not clueless about this stuff---you have an excellent comprehesion.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your plan is a good one. One that I would willingly undertake providing that Dylan took certain steps too. And made certain commitments.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My impression of Dylan is this. She is willing to do no contact. She is willing to engage in MC (with Penny would be my hope). Those are the only two things you need to make a start. And you notice that the steps I mentioned for you are the same. Stop cheating. Start counseling. Be patient, and allow your counselor to help the two of you navigate and negotiate these other issues.

So, as kathi and weaver state---what else do you need?

And finally:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will not set myself up in a situation that I know will end in a train wreck. I can't afford anymore trainwrecks. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I completely agree that you can't afford more train wrecks. However, looking at your situation right now---do you not see this as a situation that is just begging for a train wreck? You've invited Dylan back, you're not working on your marriage, you're openly cheating on her. How is this good, Christian behavior? Christian behavior exists solo, it does not depend on anyone else's actions or reactions. It's beautiful in it's simplicity. You are married. You need to chose behaviors that demonstrate love, charity, fidelity, and forgiveness.

Please put aside your fears, and make an appointment with Penny.

#1177729 08/28/04 09:47 PM
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K... m'man... it's not the posts that are hurtful... no. The posts are things I need to hear. Even when I'm argumentative, and seem like I'm 'not getting it' it's because that's the way I explore and evaluate my own thoughts and feelings. By debating them, turning them over, testing them.

Any, my point is that it's not the posts. It's statements that come across as disrespectfully judgemental (not that I'm actually asking for any respect... that I shall earn) like the one I quoted in my last post. Blanket statements/attacks against my character that are, well, um, exagerated and quite unduly harsh. Not even a smidgeon of integrity?

In fact, right now, that's my biggest problem with Dylan. The Thing that is most dissuading me from jumping on that plan of yours.

Which brings me to the first answer of the question everyone is asking...

I firmly believe that the only way this marriage is going to work is if both Dylan and I make a profound commitment to make it work. And then follow that commitment with ACTION.

I've tried doing it alone. She's tried doing it alone, neither of us can claim we've sustained our efforts in the areas that really count. So unless I can be convinced that we'd BOTH be committed and follow up on it with action, then what's the point? Do I wanna go through this again? Does she? I'd bet dollars to dimes Dylan would echo this statement.

But at this point, there seems to be an awful lot of finger pointing going on. It feels like Dylan believes that this is all my fault. I can't take that anymore. Have I screwed up? Oh yeah. But I admit to it... acknowledge it and try to get back on track. I keep falling off, but at least I'm still trying. I feel that if she looked in the mirror she might acknowledge that she's equal to me in the magnitude of poor judgement and bad marital behaviour and be willing to work on herself a little bit rather than shovelling all this onto my shoulders and expecting me to prove myself.

It's hypocritical. And I can understand someone feeling that way... but I also expect them to stop at some point.

I'm getting totally sidetracked and long winded here...

And babbling...

Un-neccesary when the bottom line is I need her to tell me that she wants to save this marriage. That we have a future. That the efforts I put into this are not going to be pointless.

I need a plan. With a start, middle and ending. A plan that is reasonable and takes me into account too.

I need reassurance and proof that our lifestyle will undergo significant changes on all levels.

Please understand that I'm not asking her to do everything... just to seriously meet me at the plate.

There. I just summed this whole post up with 5 words.

Meet me at the plate.

dewt

#1177730 08/29/04 06:06 AM
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deut,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Meet me at the plate.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It seems to me that she has and will. I do believe that she would start counseling with you. She's done the no-contact thing, and to the best of my abilities to read the situation she's not backing off of that.

What you seem to be indicating in your post (using baseball terms), is that you want Dylan not only to step up to the plate, but to commit to a 10 year contract where the terms aren't spelled out, and to do so enthusiastically. That's not going to happen---and if you set the hurdle that high, you're just damning your marriage.

If the two of you get into counseling---its your counselor's (coach's) job to help motivate and teach the two of you. It's your job to demonstrate to Dylan that there's a good reason to stick it out with your team---that there are long term benefits for all involved. And it's her job to do the same for you. I also believe that from the tone of her posts, she's not far away from having hope here---but she needs concrete actions from you with regard to the marriage.

The other thing I see in your post is issues with "the blame game". Face it kid---you're to blame here. This is all entirely your fault... Gotcha', didn't I... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> You and Dylan have made enough mistakes in the last couple of years to give Bill Harley enough material for a couple new books. But remember what he says about people coming out of affairs---they don't like to apologize. In fact, they're a bit pissed off that they have to come out of fantasy land and face the hard work of restoring a marriage. You are both coming out of affairs. I believe that your affairs are not as emotionally involving for you as Dylan's---the good news is that you come out to face reality more quickly. The bad news is that you shockingly slide back into bad behavior without warning---and if I were Dylan, I'd be scared to death that you'd do it again on me just when I was starting to love you again.

You're both ready to take a shot a recovery, assuming that you can dial the phone and both parties can get on the extension. Waiting will not help your situation. And I'll remind you that you owe this both to your son, and your wife. OK---gotta go to church now...

#1177731 08/29/04 06:40 AM
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Dewt...

basically you are asking for the impossible..

a garunutee...
even a garuntee to work on things right now may not be possible from dylan...

but that has nothing to do with you...

you sound like..... I would do
and I could do
all these things to even start and address things...
but until dylan does this or that..
or even says she will do this or that
OR even says she might be interested in a marriage...

then I dewt, will not do a thing....

too much "I won't if she won't" going on...

and no one is talking to you about commmitting 100000% to fixing this thing...

BUT
if you continue to make choices and to actions that self sabotage even the chance of Dylan committing to a n y t h i n g...

then you have to realize that is allll you...

I still am flabbergasted that you are/were seeing other woman socially..
I can barely get past that concept and I am not your spouse..
it is your and mine and our actions that define us...and i for one can not comprehend how on one hand you are asking for and seeking some affirmation from dylan that instills hope....in your relationship...

and then in action doing the absolute one thing that undermines it to the core....

people behave as they should in their marriage INSPITE of their spouses....

and if you tell me that you believe because dylan says right now that she can't or won't commit to the marriage and in your head that means there is no marriage so you are free to date...

that thought
that action
speaks volumes to me about the value you yourself have in marital vows...
and that's all back on you...

Dewt you know I abhor chaos...
and always plead with posters to seek the chaos that they invite, create and allow in their universe and start with what they can control in ceasing...

ARK

#1177732 08/29/04 08:12 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by K:
<strong>What you seem to be indicating in your post (using baseball terms), is that you want Dylan not only to step up to the plate, but to commit to a 10 year contract where the terms aren't spelled out, and to do so enthusiastically. That's not going to happen---and if you set the hurdle that high, you're just damning your marriage.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope. What I'm asking is that she tell me straight out that she wants such a contract and then sit down and work out the terms with me. Then, with a contract that is mutually beneficaial, we both commit. I don't want to be the only one jumping hurdles, cause then, when I don't make it, the fingers will still all be pointing back at me.

As for her having already met me at the plate... well, no. So far, there's been only assurances that she does not want to work on this marriage. The closest we've come is a two year plan where my deepest needs get suspended until she works out her sh... stuff and decides what she wants to do.

And ya, she's done the NC thing, but after how many months? It finally happened, but only at her convenience... not out of any respect for me or urgent desire to save our marriage - but because I insisted that we couldn't even be friends if that backstabbing skank was involved in our lives. And really, in the end, OP is just a symptom of a bigger problem. I want that addressed.

You said, "I also believe that from the tone of her posts, she's not far away from having hope here."

Well, at numerous points, I've believed that too. But the bottom line is that there is no hope until the two of us conciously decide to introduce some hope. Short of that, we're looking at a repeat of the situation that led up to her affair, to my affair... please, you must understand that I'm petrified of any more false hope...

I do remember what Harley says about people coming out of affairs... I remember reading about John and Sue and how Sue was treating John like he was having the affair... I had to put the book down at that point. It was over a month before I could even pick it up again.


And what you say is true. Affairs are not emotionally involving for me. But I do not slide back in without warning... My patterns are easily predictable. And if Dylan is scared that I'd do it again, well she has the power to interupt that pattern. All she has to do is give me a reason not to. When my path is clear, it's a lot easier for me to stay on it.

It's not fair for her to leave me in (from my perspective) a hopeless situation and expect me to perform admirably. Hey, if I was emotionally whole and undamaged and without the specific issues that I have, perhaps I could pull it off (as many on these boards have) but the fact is I need years of major counselling to get to that point. Right now, I need Dylan's help. I cannot do this alone.

I'm definately into counselling. Penny sounds great.

John

#1177733 08/29/04 08:15 AM
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ark, I just posted, and saw that you wrote to me...

I don't have time to reply right now... but I will come back later...

Thank you for posting. Your views are sooooo valuable to me.

J

#1177734 08/29/04 08:29 AM
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Mmmmmmmmmm.

Dewt, I've been where you are. Wanting to sit down and work out that contract and get ON with it.

Been there.

Done that.

And you know, I've actually worked out a contract. Not to reconcile our marriage but to work out custody for our daughter.

It was absolutely awful.

It destroyed much of the love we had left for one another, in three months of absolute horror.

If you want a contract... that's great.

But it's gonna have to be an iterative thing.

It takes a long time to build the contract of a marital recovery.

If it took three months just to sort out where one very small baby was going to spend her time, imagine what it'll take for two adults, a child, a bunch of physical objects, monetary considerations, who'll sleep where, what kind of intimate contact you'll have, how many dogs, cats, and goldfish will be allowed to join the family, etc. etc. etc.

The thing is, this negotiation is so hard because what you each want will change as you build trust between yourselves.

The negotiation process itself has to be a trust-building process.

There are different kinds of negotiations. If you're negotiating to buy a car, you don't need to build up a lot of trust with the person you're negotiating with. (When was the last time you trusted a car salesman?)

If you're negotiating for a raise, then you approach it differently -- you have an ongoing relationship with your boss that you don't want to poison by how you handle the negotiations. You want to maintain the trust levels you already have.

If you're negotiating for a complete change of lifestyle between two people who love each other but don't trust each other, then the goal of the negotiation is really different. More importantly than any single negotiated agreement is the importance of building trust. Which means negotiating fairly and honestly, and KEEPING your agreements.

Tough stuff.

You need an expert to get you through it -- I agree with K that coaching is in your future.

And you probably need someone who will stand you in front of a mirror and make you really look at your own actions. You're searching in Dylan for signs that she's willing not to hurt you anymore.

I want to know where the signs are that YOU are not going to hurt yourself anymore.

'Cause this deal with the dating and stuff? That's hurting your integrity a whole lot. It's a slow poison and tastes great as you swallow it... and it's gonna kill you.

#1177735 08/29/04 08:32 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Affairs are not emotionally involving for me. But I do not slide back in without warning... My patterns are easily predictable. And if Dylan is scared that I'd do it again, well she has the power to interupt that pattern.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Deut---that's cop out city. You are the only one who can change your behaviors. To blame it on what Dylan is or isn't doing is fooling yourself. My major frustration with you (and why I quote "smidgeon of integrity") is because you're not even coming close to dealing with YOU in a way that I think is reasonable. You have much, much, much work to do before you're suitable marriage material. That should be obvious---and apparently you recognize it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't want to be the only one jumping hurdles, cause then, when I don't make it, the fingers will still all be pointing back at me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I don't think you should be the only one jumping hurdles. But it's pretty clear that you and Dylan aren't at a point to set the hurdles for each other and motivate one another in a positive way to succeed. That's why you hire Penny---she will be able to set the priorities for both of you to rebuild this mess. If you fail---you're right, you will have blame. If you don't attempt this, you'll fail too---and then your family will reap the harvest from this.

Put the fear, blame, and expectations aside and call Penny. Ask Dylan to join you. That's all you need to do---you know that Penny's goal is for people to be in intimately satisfying and sustaining marriages---but she'll have a much better idea of how to get the two of you there than you or Dylan do right now.

#1177736 08/29/04 07:27 PM
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I really appreciate all your replies and concern.

I'm still very confused. I sure need to make some sense of all this. And your input helps me sort things out...

Still unsure...

But until I can gain some clarity, you should all know that:

I will not be pursuing intimate relationships with other women.

I will arrange for counselling with Penny (if Dylan agrees) as soon as our finances will allow.

Apart from that, for the time being I will just 'chill'...

take a step back and rethink all this...

Ark, Just J... really glad you're both here.

John

#1177737 08/29/04 08:04 PM
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P has a sliding scale for folks who are in tough financial situations. How about e-mailing her now instead of later? Who knows? You might be able to swing at least some time with her sooner rather than later.

#1177738 08/29/04 09:14 PM
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John,

Just wanted to let ya know that I'm keeping up with what goes on with you and Dylan. And I'm hoping and pray that you two do what you both know could be the only thing to save your marriage.

I'm glad to hear that you're going to stay away from other women. That's a good first step.

And as JustJ said...why not email Penny and see what she has to say about your financial situation. Maybe she can work out some sort of deal with you!

(((((HUGS))))) to you both!
Mitzi <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

#1177739 08/31/04 09:24 AM
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Just stopped by to check in. Thanks for answering my q.

It really seems to me that you & dylan want the same things in so many ways...I have hope for you guys.

Glad you are going to call Penny...and let me urge you do so ASAP. You guys need to get a plan in place NOW.

Kathi

#1177740 08/31/04 08:45 PM
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First of all, thanks for dropping in...

Secondly, I can't really move on the Penny thing yet as a) I don't have POJA, b) I don't have the budget yet for even a sliding scale (stabilizing my finances will save me the cost of paying someone to tell me to stabilize my finances as part of my road to health and happiness), and c) Dylan and I have agreed to try and 'chill' for a week.

Truth be told, I'm not really 'chilling'. I'm stewing. I've also had a pretty rough couple of days IRL so I'm trying not to take my emotional whitenoise too seriously.

I've enrolled in a Bible course. I figure it'll get me out of the house yet keep me out of trouble. I might even learn something. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

So there's kind of an update...

Oh yeah... anybody know anything at all about relief for a pinched nerve???

ttfn,

dewt

<small>[ August 31, 2004, 09:48 PM: Message edited by: dewt ]</small>

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