Sorry. Let me a little more concise.

There is NO WAY in this world the counseling with Anthony is OK unless:

1 - His wife knows about it.

AND

2 - Either you or she is around during the counseling. Next room is OK. But around.

It is just not an appropriate relationship.

Autumn needs to understand the why of it. But if she cannot, she must still agree to this.

On moving: An excellent idea. Just make sure both of you are in agreement.

NCW

Eric,

Sorry my initial post was more pointing out the obvious then actual help or advice.
(Guess I'm feeling a bit more defensive myself these days).

Just felt (right at that moment) that you were being advised to just basically accept and put up with whatever it is your wife chooses to do.
I didn't like to think that you might be just defining a boundary...then once she crosses it...........erasing that line and then drawing another, over and over.

Indeed, I didn't want You to go through that useless exercise, cause it never works out in the end.
Yes, it does make for "peace" at the moment, but ultimately is counter productive.
IMO a WS needs to feel the consequences of their actions Not be protected from them. (much like a child). My feeling is Firm but Fair.

Didn't mean to come across as nit picking on others whom are attempting to help, while not trying myself. Cause that's not fair.

With that said, Some introspection for YOU:

So what DO YOU think of her proposal to move and start over?
(Other then the initial reaction of a dread of change).

Do you see any merit or possibility of better success if this is done?

Has she given you any type of plan or just generalizations? (like where to move, time frame, job possibilities, ect.)
If done, what would Your plan be? Timetable?

In your opinion, Could you do this to save your M? (no right or wrong answer...some can, some can't)
At this point is your M worth relocating, finding a job, leaving what you know, and basically starting your life anew? Believe me it IS a big sacrifice that many are Not willing to make.

Is she serious or just saying something at the moment to take heat off of her actions?

Hey, its not for everyone. Some are scared that if they can't fix it in one place, How is another place going to be any different? After all your Still the same 2 people.
So this is a very legitimate concern.

Or they have a fear of moving and getting a new job (possible away from family and friends) and then it Still not working out and they are then stuck by themselves in even a worse situation. Again, valid concern.

I just would like to know how serious you BOTH are to doing this? Or was this just conversation?

I know a new environment and atmosphere let us both begin to develop a new and better attitude towards our M.
And there is not just one thing to point to. It was the entire package put together that made a difference.

A big difference was that a majority of the "triggers" was taken away for each of us by moving. The less of these you have to deal with the better.

Next, it was a bonding experience for us to have to begin our lives over.
Since we only really knew each other it forced us to turn to one another for support. A goal all couples should have.

In addition, just having NEW experiences and challenges to take on, helped bring us closer together. Many times (while our life is on auto pilot) we tend to be able to focus on the negatives because we are SO comfortable in our day to day lives.
However, when house hunting, job hunting, moving, selling a home, getting used to new job, finding stores, and all the rest.......you don' t have the Time nor the Energy to put into all your hurt.

Also, it forces you to Work together on common goals (hopefully enthusiastically) and takes down some of the natural walls that have formed, as a result of the infidelity.

OK, OK I think you get where I'm going......so I'll stop with this.
Truly, how you feel about this is huge step?
She does at least seem willing to try something (at her own suggestion) and believe me this is Big.
If she's serious, then this IS a good indicator of her state of mind.

One last thing. Since you are together and as close as you state....it makes this hiding and cover up, all the more troubling.
However, Take it as a good sign that she's willing to give up the cell phones & even relocate.
As stated before, perhaps she does want to do the right thing.....but doesn't know how.
This is where YOUR Sticking to what you say is SO important.

Indeed, only "threaten" with whatever it is your actually prepared to go through with.
(I know its so tough, when we get emotional....but please try). Guard your mouth.

Don't destroy your own credibility by giving a boundary and a consequence if crossed and then NOT follow through. Say what you mean and then do what you say. Otherwise you'll just get walked all over. Make no mistake that much like a child she will "test" your boundaries and even your will and resolve at times.

She's just Too early on in this process for her Not too. (Don't forget she was an adult doing what she wanted, when she wanted).
That is a difficult thing to give up for Anyone.

Some may interpret this kind of move as "running away" from a problem.
Or being "run off" by the OP.
I chose to look at it as "running towards" a new life and marriage.
I know in my heart if we had stayed there, we would be at the very least separated and at the worst divorced today. It's not a cure all in itself......but it did help.

Your a good man, I wish you only success.

P.S.
Yea, I keep up as much as I can. You've just seemed to have gone from asking to answering more so these days.(Which I took as a Good thing).
Also you seem to attract plenty of help, hence my just lurking.

<small>[ September 21, 2004, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: top rope ]</small>

Top,

C'mon man. You always tell it like it is with no sugar coating. Many people respond well to that, myself (and I believe Eric) included.

Unless you are refraining from posting something redundant, do it. Use the gifts.

And thanks,

NCW

Top,, and NC,,,

I did some damage control last night Example: NCW's advice> I apologized to her for the yelling, but explained why I yelled.

Top Ropes advice> Looked her in the eyes and told her my boundaries, my deal breakers and why I hold to those boundaries. Not threats,,,,, but I did express my reactions to her actions.

Example: I see any more evidence of suspicious OM encounters,,, I have to leave the relationship.
Like I told her,,> As much as I love you, I cannot be in a marriage with so much animosity, and pain, not for myself, not for my children, and not for you.

Something NCW said,,,,,, "We are both young we have our whole lives together with or without one another" Top Rope said: Do not be the plan A doormat,,,,, set boundaries but also enforce them"

I do not want us to end up hating each other and going through a he done it she done it divorce.

As for Anthonys wife,,, She knows Autumn and Anthony are past lovers she sees Autumn as a threat to her Marriage,,, which is how I see it and how I expect Anthony and Autumn to see it.
The re location,,,, so far it is all conversation and talking about it,, no steps have been taken toward it yet. I am for whatever is best for our marriage.
Also I am reflecting on an article wrote by Shirley Glass,, who is regarded as one of the top experts in marital infidelity. She speaks of the philandering spouse. The philandering man tends to be a sex addict and is more commonly seen among a philandering spouse,,, however she does speak of the philandering wife, and it scares me on how similar the descriptions fit my wife.
Example: "the philandering wife finds security in tha Marriage but thrives on the excitement and emotions of an affair, the philandering wife becomes addicted to the act of having an affair in itself." "The majority of philandering wifes are exposed when the betrayed husband discovers evidence of an ongoing affair, yet almost "allways" there are more than one offense."
"This is one situation where I may reccommend to the betrayed partner to consider divorce."

Signs of a philandering wife:

Upon discovery of an initial affair new boundaries are set, new lines are established by the betrayed Husband. Evidence emerges of another offense.

Philandering wife often assures Husband of her dedication to the Marriage. There is often a different agenda to create a feeling of security for both partners in this case.

Excuses such as,, "I do not know what is wrong with me, or why I do this to my husband" are often associated with a philandering wife/husband.
A betrayed partner may accept these excuses as expressions of remorse or guilt, but I have found to often that the true philanderer does not understand his or her actions.

Affairs with people from past relationships are also a sign of a philandering spouse and are often the hardest affairs to give up.

One night stands often go undetected by the betrayed partner and are only confessed to a therapist/counselor.

Betrayed partners often discover they were deceived over a long period of time. In some cases discovery did not occur until well after the Death of the philandering spouse.
_______________________________________________

So much of this labels my wife as a philandering wife. It may become a reality that that is in fact what I married.
I think that is why I really need to open my eyes and decide if this is the type of marriage and life long relationship I want with Autumn.

eric,

what about the possiblity that this is the way she is, but she wants to change? what if she was to go to IC and work on the WHYs of her past behaviour and really does the work and understands the whys and becomes a healthier person.

do you see that as a possiblity?

if that was to happen but there were more PAST skeletons in the closet that have not been confessed to, how would feel about that? would that be a deal breaker for you? i am talking about PAST skeletons only. could you blanketly lump all her past as the past and stick by her while she works on her issues?

FL,,

Whew that is a good question.
If you are asking do I love her enough to work with her to correct these issues,, I think I have shown that I do and would. Now could I tell you that after hearing my wife confess other affairs?
I would say yes,,, but not being in that exact situation I think the most honest answer is I do not know!

I have neglected to tell this board all of my wifes past actions since I met her because just I felt just focusing on the one affair could resolve her issues.
Well I know that is not the case.

FULL TRUTH:
I have said I caught my wife literally in bed with another man before we were married. What I did not confess is The OM was her 15 yr old cousin,, my wife was 21 yrs old!

I lied when I said her cousin and her recent affair were the only 2 incidents I was aware of.

While my wife was involved in her affair in March, one night she confessed she had lesbian sex with a friend of mines wife. She confessed this to me casually and said it was the only incident I was not aware of. I now believe the reason she confessed this was because she was involved in an affair and was feeling guilty, but not guilty enough to reveal her current affair with the OM. When she told me about her lesbian experience she said "That is the only skeleton I have kept from you" I think she was just trying to assure me that she was a honest wife, so I would be further blinded to her current affair.

So as you now know I have alot to deal with. I mean there really is no doubt my wife has problems.
Call it denial on my part or whatever,,, but I know I do not want a wife who cannot quit such deceitful behavior.
A friend sugested I seek a counselor or therapist who will help directly with me, and help me recover from the pain my wife has inflicted upon me. Then decide if me and my wife should go back to joint marriage counseling.
We attended christian counseling for a month but the counselors did not discuss the aftermath of the affair,, they perferred the forget about the past lets look to the future method. I could not look toward the future because of all of my wifes past offenses.

Are there counselors who will deal directly with healing from the trauma of being betrayed?

Eric,

your answer is understandable. thanks.

is your wife in IC? if not, have you asked her to go? not to work on marraige issues but to work on her. to understand her behaviours and learn newer healthier ones.

if not, i would advise you ask her to seek C. as a loving husband and a person that cares about her. that you see her behavior as destructive to herself. do you think she would agree that her behaviour has been destructive? tell her for her sake you would like to see her address the underlying issues so she can be healthier and happier.

i have no doubt that you do love her and want nothing more than for her to be healthier and happier. you have to be sure she understands that when you ask her to seek IC.

{{Eric}}} I've been keeping up with you too, like Top. You've gotten some good things to think about. I AM concerned that Autumn doesn't seem to have anyone but Anthony to talk to about your issues.

You have the board but as I recall you guys don't (?) have computer access at home so Autumn is limited to using the work computer? Please let her know I am available to talk with her, she may have lost the addy so let me know if you need it again.

In my previous conversations with her she expressed grief and remorse but also her great desire to be the wife that you deserve. It would be important for her to get appropriate support for this. I think IC for her is a much better investment at this point than MC if you must make a choice. Let me know if you need the addy. Sorry if I've been quiet but I've sort of had my hands full lately. I'm always remembering you two though. KB

KB,,,

It is nice to hear from you,,,,, I was expecting you to reply I just did not know when.

Yes Autumn expressses to me that she wants to be a devoted wife as well,,,, I am glad you 2 talked about this. She is not able to get on Comp at work anymore,,, we are working on that,, but she has also told me she is not as comfortable as I am about talking to MB about our situation,,, that is why she talked to you on a sole basis.
She is a registered member here but she just lurked and followed my posts, she never asked another MBer for any advice nor expressed her feelings to this board even though I encouraged it.
As far as Anthony yes he was her choice to confide in but why,,,,,,,, she has a loving Mother and Father who have done nothing but tried to help us both with this,,,she has talked to her friends about her affair,,,, so why all of a sudden ANTHONY a past lover is her choice?
There has to be a reason,,,, I caught myself talking to a co worker about this,,,, we were alone in her office,,, I am so aware of the dangers,,, as soon as I felt our conversation was becoming to personal I ended the conversation and walked out. She tells me she understands me being upset that she is conversating with a past lover in secrecy,,,,ITS NEVER A GOOD SIGN AND NEVER A GOOD IDEA. Especially when you have a marital track record like ours.
I would love for her to talk to u again ill try to get her access to your addy as soon as possible...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by eric. n:
<strong> As far as Anthony yes he was her choice to confide in but why,,,,,,,, she has a loving Mother and Father who have done nothing but tried to help us both with this,,,she has talked to her friends about her affair,,,, so why all of a sudden ANTHONY a past lover is her choice?
There has to be a reason,,,, </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The reason is most likely that because Anthony is a betrayed spouse. Remember, she began asking for his advice when he came in for a haircut? She has parents and friends but maybe there are questions she can't ask of her parents.

Friends as you already know, can sabotage recovery rather than foster it and they are probably sick and tired of hearing about it anyway. She probably figured Anthony would understand what you both are going through, he's been there too. He was sort of an inappropriate version of MB. She seems to be doing the best she can with the limited resources she has, Eric.

Eric,

your answer is understandable. thanks.

is your wife in IC? if not, have you asked her to go? not to work on marraige issues but to work on her. to understand her behaviours and learn newer healthier ones.

if not, i would advise you ask her to seek C. as a loving husband and a person that cares about her. that you see her behavior as destructive to herself. do you think she would agree that her behaviour has been destructive? tell her for her sake you would like to see her address the underlying issues so she can be healthier and happier.

i have no doubt that you do love her and want nothing more than for her to be healthier and happier. you have to be sure she understands that when you ask her to seek IC.

IC has really helped me.