If you look at my past posts, I am terrible at this, it is shameful.

Anyway, after a full day of LB after LB, she calls me this morning, after an evening with the OM, to ask me if I really wanted to get back with her.

I started babbling and told her that I would love to but I'm hesitant because I know that when she is with me, she is depressed, feels guilty and sad, and when she is with him, she feels alive and happy. That within one week of us getting back together, she would be calling him because he misses her. WHAT THE HECK AM I DOING????

I am practically pushing her towards him!!!

Please give me guidance. Please tell me what I need to do because my insticts and my stupid desire to continually preach and instruct are ruining any last thread of hope.

What should I do from here? What should I say?

Is this email ok to send??


(((((((((When you called and asked that, I was so confused and I started thinking out loud. I didn't expect you to call.

I answered you in the worst way possible.

I felt like I had a million ideas and thoughts to tell you and I chose all the wrong ones.

Instead of telling you that I love you and that I would welcome you back with open arms and provide you the security and sanctuary you need, I went into some stupid, stupid tirade.

Look, I am ecstatic to hear what you asked me. At this time, I don't accept it as something that you really want. Unfortunate as it is, I can't believe that you mean it.

If you feel as if you are ready to get together to brainstorm on ideas on how to fix this, not demanding or accusatory, I would certainly welcome that.)))))))))

It wasn't necessarily the worst thing to say...it was honest and was a reflection of what you see. OK, OK, the goal was probably you trying to get her to convince you she is happier with you...can you say fishing for a compliment?

Have you read about Plan A and Plan B?

It is time for Plan B it seems like, because you are losing your love for her and LBing all over the place.

BUT, before you move there you have to put your best foot forward and show her the best Plan A yet!!!

What do you know about Plan A? What are her top EN's? What is your biggest LB and how can you cut it out ENTIRELY.

It is time for an email, but an honest one where you address each of the LB's you are doing, and laying out a plan for how you are going to change...an APOLOGY.

ta...hey....welcome to MB. First, I am assuming you have been reading up on the MB concepts, et al, eh? Before I respond, tell us a little about your sit--did your W move in w/OM? Is she "completely" fogged? How long have you been plan A'ng?
Just relax! You know just from your W's actions and words, when you start adding that much emotion into your words, you don't get the responses you are looking for.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anyway, after a full day of LB after LB, she calls me this morning, after an evening with the OM, to ask me if I really wanted to get back with her.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">thatsall - No doubt about it, she is beginning to THINK. Beginning to see that her choices have been incorrect. However, she is also internalizing what she thinks HER reaction would be if you were the one cheating on her. She is probably saying to herself, "there is no way I would be able to forgive him so there is probably no way he could forgive me."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I started babbling and told her that I would love to but I'm hesitant because I know that when she is with me, she is depressed, feels guilty and sad, and when she is with him, she feels alive and happy. That within one week of us getting back together, she would be calling him because he misses her. WHAT THE HECK AM I DOING????</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What you are doing is "being honest." What do you think she would really expect to hear? "Oh yes, I want you back no matter what, no remorse, no "giving up" the OM, no "conditions" of any kind?

You said what needed to be said. Yes, you want her back despite all that has gone on. Yes, you are hurting and having tremendous emotional pain. Yes, you are beginning to realize that Withdrawal is a real thing. Yes you are afraid of how YOU will be able to deal with her Withdrawal symptoms IF she were to recommit and attempt recovery.

This IS reality. She needs to hear reality. She has already had enough fantasy and needs to face the need to make choices that are good, even if it means going through some hard times in order to heal and recover.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am practically pushing her towards him!!!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No you aren't. She already made that choice with no help from you. This is a very common fear that BS's have. You need to understand that she needs no "pushing" from you. What you need to be doing is stating the obvious. You will forgive her when she is ready to ask for your forgiveness and commit to the WORK needed to recover your marriage. You DO love her, but you do not like or approve of her ACTIONS. Marriage IS exclusive of all other persons and it does require BOTH spouses to commit to that exclusivity.

Marriage also requires commitment to "stick it out" and overcome the problems, not by burying one's head in the sand as if the problems didn't exist, but by facing them and dealing with them in order to "put them behind you."

God bless.

Thanks FH, great insight.

Yesterday I asked her not to contact me anymore. Not quite as nice, but essentially that.

I have told her that before. Inevitably, she calls me the next day. She won't let me go and sucks me back in.

I feel as if there is any shred of hope, she needs to be away from me and feel that loneliness. Since she moved out, we have talked every single day. Every day, some good others bad. Now it just seems like it's a pattern of us somewhat getting along and being moderately respectful, then her going to OM and then she dumps on me and I LB left and right to the point where I say enough is enough, don't call. Then the cycle starts again.

So I emailed this: (((((You are not being respectful to my decision to let you go.

I asked you not to call me or contact me. I can not continue to ride this roller coaster any longer.

I cannot bear to hear your voice or hear you tell me you love me. Those words mean nothing.

Jennifer, please don't call me anymore. It is so difficult for me to tell you this, but I really need you to free me of this mental abuse))))

As I am writing this post, she is calling, I don't pick up.....

Do you think that I should cut off contact and let her wallow in her decision? Or should I be a caring husband and prove to her that I will always be here for her, even while she vacillates?

She sent this:

((((((((((((I don't understand your last e-mail - you said that you would want to talk
about US but now you tell me not to call you - I am confused. You fight and
then I give in then you recoil - what do you want?)))))))))))

Am I being manipulative??? I don't know what to do.... I feel that I am vacillating as much as she is....

Then I got this email...

I will not call - I don't understand - just clarify for me - would you want
to stay married?

What have you done in the way of a Plan A?

You need to read your other posts.

First off, the old adage, "if you can't say something nice, don't say it at all" holds very, very true here.

B E F O R E you say anything to your wife, S T O P, take a deep breath and decide what you are going to say and see if it is going to be useful or if it is just to take a jab at her.

Of course she is confused. You say one thing then do another.
When you tell her you want to stay together, why should she believe you?
When you tell her you will change your negative behaviors, why should she believe you?
She is getting used to you doing the opposite of what you tell her you want.
If you don;t want to use Marriage Builders, that is fine.
If you want to use them to help you save your marriage, then you have to use some self-control when dealing with your wife.

Thank you Chris. I do want to do MB. As an infant, I am overwhelmed.

This site keeps me as sane as can be. No wonder she is so confused. I promise to be her refuge and when she needs that refuge, I slam the door shut. Manipulative. I tell her I will change, but I still preach and lecture her on my infinitely deep knowledge and thorough understanding. I am a fool.

Thank you Chris for the slap of reality. I needed that...

thatsall, you're reacting way, way too fast here. I understand completely why you're doing it. And here is what I would suggest you do about it:

First, write to your wife and say something like this: "You're right -- I'm all over the map right now. I'm really upset and honestly, I don't know what I want. I know that I love you, and if there's a way to save our marriage, I want to. Beyond that, though, I'm really having a hard time figuring out what I want and what the best way to approach it is. Please give me a couple of days to think so that I can get things sorted out. I'll write to you when I'm calmer, promise."

Second, do just what the above says. Take some time. A week or two would be entirely reasonable. Heck, six MONTHS would be reasonable. Whatever it is, take some time to think through your life, what you want, and why you want it. This is not an easy time at all, and if you're a religious person, spending a lot of time in prayer and meditation would be a very good idea. If you're not religious, then I would suggest that you find a park or other open green space and spend a very large amount of quiet time in it. Looking at the leaves of trees moving in the wind is incredibly relaxing. If you get agitated, take a slow walk, and then go back to looking at the leaves.

The goal of all this is to get the anger and stress hormones out of your system. They're so high right now that you're literally drowning in them. Your rational mind is utterly unable to cope with what your body is doing to you -- and it's really not a good idea to make ANY life decisions while you're in that state.

I would also recommend that you journal about your thoughts and feelings. Do it here if you need to talk to someone, do it in a notebook if you do better on your own. Make it a conversation with yourself, talk out all the hurt and fear and what you want and need and everything.

And the only other thing I would suggest is that you spend lots of time with your son while you're doing all this. That, too, will clear your mind. Don't allow him to see the absolutely awful stuff that's going on with you while you're with him. Instead, take that time to enter into the world of the child, and to revel in the present moments of laughter and fun that you can have when you're five years old.

thatsall - this is insane.

Either you really do love your wife and want the opportunity to recover your marriage or you don't.

But you are playing games and letting your emotions control your actions and speach.

Your wife IS confused, and rightly so.

thatsall - drop this garbage of telling her not to call or contact you IF you want the opportunity to recover you marriage. If not, then continue on to divorce and stop playing games.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel as if there is any shred of hope, she needs to be away from me and feel that loneliness. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you NUTS?!? She has opened the door for you to help her and you are slamming it in her face?!?

Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot. YOUR pain and YOUR feelings are justification for behaving like a wounded animal. You have a mind and are NOT controlled by instinct. OVERRIDE your emotions by clearly focusing on what your objective is.

All of your posting seems to indicate that your objective is a recovered marriage. How do you justify Love Busting and Disrespectful Judgments as being helpful in attaining your objective?

I KNOW the affair HURTS. We all know that. Either you COMMIT to a recovery plan or bail out if you are not strong enough to ENDURE when necessary in order to help her get out of the fog and back into the marriage.

Here, bend over and grab your ankles. I'd like a good target for this 2x4 to apply to the "seat of learning."

Seriously, it IS hard. The emotions DO hurt. But your current tact is NOT a good one. She wants to open the line of communication and you want to slam the phone down. Can you not hear the plaintive cry for help? Who better to help than you?

God bless.

FH, you're awesome. Thank you!!

It's me that is in the fog...

oh man......

I'm glad to see that you have decided to at least try.

Now....I'm with you on not being able to keep your mouth shut....it took me a long time to figure out what I should say.....and what I shouldn't.

I can see where your W is getting confused. I think that in your confusion everything is just getting all jumbled up.....some things you are thinking are getting through.....but some aren't....and some are just...well.....too damn confusing to even think about.

Maybe you should give yourself a couple of days to think....really think.....and in those days if you think of something you would like to discuss with her you should write it down....don't discuss it with her until you feel like you have thought of everything you would like to talk about.......and then....put it in a letter....that way you cover everything....and you've thought long and hard about what you want to say.....so nothing is left out. Also....by writing the letter there will be no harshness coming from your mouth. I myself have trouble getting some things through just because of the tone of my voice......it sounds different than the way I mean it.

You need to let her know that you still love her....but are hurt by her actions. Which causes the anger that causes your outbursts.....been there.....done it WAY too many times.

You need to let her know that because of her actions and the decisions that she has made....it is better for YOU to distance yourself from the situation.....because her continuous contact with the OM and the way that she treats you afterward will eventually completely deplete your love for her and you don't want that to happen. It goes both ways though.......YOUR continued outbursts will have the same affect on her.

Start thinking about things before you talk to her about them. Try keeping everything casual for right now.....limit the talk to about your son and finances for now.

It seems really really hard to do.

If I can work on the MB Principles......anybody can....believe me.

I'd tell ya my story....but it would take days of typing...lol.....and mine goes back so far that I don't think you can even pull it up anymore..........but believe me......I was exactly where you are......4 years ago.

It can be done......you just have to want it.

Hey thatsall !!!

I pretty much mimic everyone else's advice.
I particularly would go with the email JustJ recommended.

What everyone seems to forget all too easily is in the beginning it's next to IMPOSSIBLE to keep a reign on your emotions. They ARE all over the place.

This is what I'm going to say...and I hope you understand the direct implication of what I'm about to tell you...

Your mind is set right now on the fact that you have to DO something, TAKE action, that you have this ONE opportunity, and it's burying you.

Keep these basic knee jerk reactions to a minimum by telling yourself AND your wife that this is all really new territory, it's unchartered by both of you, and to make quick, snap decisions could really hurt your chance to recover from this, and although you'd like a quick painless FIX...you'd rather invest the TIME and understanding for a LONG TERM REWARD.

Until you can adapt to NOT responding to your wife immediately, I require that you come here FIRST... and vent it out.... give yourself some time to digest the dialogue BEFORE you have it.

This WORKS.

As easy as it sounds to NOT think emotionally...it's next to impossible early on. I'm a pretty "in control" person...I have all my ducks in a nice little row, and avoid chaos....DDAY....blew me AWAY..and it took me SEVERAL weeks to think first...react later. But it's a learned behavior, that will not only become useful NOW...but later down the road for you.


EXHALE....STOP....THINK.....EXHALE AGAIN

MP and BIJ, thank you for both the insight and inspiration.

Thank you all for regrounding me, I know it was a tough battle. Thank you for taking the time. And thank you for giving me a place to go when my insanity arises.

I have learned a lot today, I think I need a nap...

YES!!!! Perfect!!

Naps are EXACTLY what you need. Follow that instinct.

Your body is telling you exactly what you need to hear. Rest. Recover. Go to ground and heal a little before you return to the fray.

Get a LONG nap.

As everyone else has now echoed my earlier comments to you I will leave you now with the very best bit of advice I have been given in many many years :

" A closed mouth gathers no foot "

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> it has baled me out of the cr@p so many times there past months.

All blessings.

<small>[ September 23, 2004, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

Thanks BP. As a kid, my dad used to always tell me "think before you speak"

So I've always had troubles keeping my mouth shut. That is probably the hugest LB I have, no doubt.

Hopefully all of your great advise will help me to control it...