</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by StandingTogether:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> SA, your father has recovered by FACING THE TRUTH about his addiction, not by romanticizing poison. He faced the truth that it was POISON. Successful recovering alcoholics focus on RECOVERY, they don't fantasize about the fine points of drinking.

Because if drinking were all that wonderful, he wouldn't have quit, right?

I assure you when he goes to AA meetings, they don't sit around and regale each other about the wonders of drinking. They talk about RECOVERY.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My father went to one AA meeting. He didn't tell us what they talked about. We were too naive or stubborn maybe to go to Alanon. I was a teenager at the time. Unfortunately, my father succombed to his addiction again b/c the withdrawal was too much for him. And he died a year later. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SA, I am sure sorry about your father. I have many friends who were killed by their addiction or committed suicide.

But I assure you that a successful recovering alcoholic does not get that way by regaling themselves about the wonders of booze. That kind of talk is shut down pretty quick at AA meetings in favor of HONESTY. We are encouraged there to GET HONEST about our addiction and face the truth. That is how we recover, not by continuing to engage in fantasies about it. Folks who do not get honest, don't get SOBER.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spider Slayer:
<strong> The above post by Mr. Pure is exactly what I am talking about. Bob, honestly, how would your wife feel if she came here and read that you were writing to over 30,000 members about her that way??? Are you thumping her over the head with her past behavior? Are you doing that to her face, or are you "venting" it here? Is she CURRENTLY doing that behavior? Are you trying to live in the here and now, or is your wife forever defined by her past mistakes?

And just because she disrespected you, is that your license to disrespect her? Are you "an eye for an eye," or "in Christlike love?" </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SS you seem to have an expectation of BS that I cannot meet. I am doing the best I can. I am not discussing the A with my FWW right now because she isn't yet able to discuss it.

We are both moving forward slowly. I cannot use think of the affair euphemistically - it was my deliberate emotional rape.

I am doing well to not be throwing furniture around and breaking OMs knees. REALLY.

I love my W and I am trying to make sure that my every interaction with her is based upon that.

I doubt I come even close to the standard you set or expect SS <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I'm just doing the best I can and not pretending to be something I am not in this board.

Spider,

I couldn't agree with you more. I have felt self-righteousness spewing from this board abundantely lately & it really saddens me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I think I just might go over to SYMC as well. Or just stick to the Prayer Request forum.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spider Slayer:
<strong>

Because I believe that all things can be said in a respectful way, if one tries hard enough. That is the wonderful thing about the english language - so many words to choose from! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SS, I am a strong believer in describing things how they really are because delusions are so very destructive, especially to an addict. I like reality.

If something is disrespectful, there is no reason to gloss it over and pretend. I abhor pretense and know personally that doing so only enables an addict to stay in their addiction. Addicts are masters of bullshi** and helping them in this endeavor only impedes their recovery.

And it also deeply offends my sense of justice to help someone pretend that something scummy is not scummy. I see no good, only harm, from delusions.

I also believe, for my own healing, that the "story" I tell about the A, my TRUTH, is very critical to my own healing. I will never forget what happened. Not ever. I am forever changed by it.

However, I believe that if I choose to remember it all in a negative, "I'm a victim, I was so wronged" way, I will never heal. That is what I believe. And it is OK that I believe that. Just as it is OK that you believe the way you do. I respect that. I respect you. Even though you don't agree with me.

I want to heal. I don't want to be in pain. The "story," the truth, about my H's A, is that it was a wonderful learning opportunity for me, and for him. We were stuck. We were not happy. We didn't understand what a healthy M was. If it wasn't an A, I believe it would have been something else. Because we were all too happy to sit in our own muck, claiming ignorance, rather than do the hard work of learning new stuff.

It took me a long time to be able to look at the A like this. And a lot of books. And a lot of exercising. Living in chronic pain, even on the inside - especially on the inside - is not good for anyone's health. I believe harsh wording calls up negative emotions. Why should we be doing that? Those emotions will always be there, I think. But do they have to be raised all the time? What is the good in that? Honestly? What is the good?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I love my W and I am trying to make sure that my every interaction with her is based upon that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bob, I totally get this from you. I really do. I don't understand how you phrasing her A the way you do can possibly help you on the road to personal recovery.

I know the pain is so raw and intense, and we are all here at different stages of our own personal experience. I just don't see the good in putting so much energy into being negative. Are you venting here? Is that what you are saying, Bob? So you don't say those things to her directly?

There are others here who are just as sensative to your remarks like that as your wife is, IMO. This is where the feelings get hurt, I think.

I am feeling like I am going uphill on a steep road covered with ice on this thread, though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

SS, facing the sordid, negative truth about my drinking and my H's affair is not a negative thing, it is an imperative step in recovery. Facing the truth has nothing to do with being a victim, it is the path to NOT being a victim.

You don't recover by pretending that bad things are good, you recover by facing the truth and accepting it.

I have been sober for 20 years because I FACED THE TRUTH, not because I ran from it. My drinking was a horribly negative thing and nothing can ever change that. It was only when I faced the truth that I began to recover. In AA, we have a saying in our preamble, that only folks who are "constitutionally incapable of being honest" cannot recover. Without honest self evalution, one does not recover.

So keep saying the truth! The dirtbags who are busy "humping" and having affairs and breaking up marriages can then hear it and act accordingly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Folks who do not get honest, don't get SOBER. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with honesty. I believe there are many different ways to present truth. I believe there is: "You are so UGLY! Look at yourself! You need to change, and right now! Yuck!"

And I believe there is this: "You are a beautiful creature. You are a human being and deserve love and respect. It is my opinion that you are not showing yourself that love and respect by the way you are currently living. You are reaching out for help, and I am here to give you that help."

A bit romanticized, but that is my opinion. I choose the latter. And that is OK! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

SS, you are comparing apples to oranges.

It would be cruel to tell a woman she is ugly but it is not cruel to label a willful, cruel act as such. You can see the difference, can't you?

<small>[ November 04, 2004, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: Archuletan ]</small>

"Alcoholism as a Primary Disease
Based on many years of clinical experience, reinforced by recent and continuing research into the genetic, biochemical and physiological aspects of the effects of alcohol on living systems and of alcoholics and their families, the American Society of Addiction Medicine finds that alcoholism is a complex primary physiological disease, and neither a primary behavior disorder nor a symptomatic manifestation of any other disease process."

Adopted By ASAM Board of Directors 10/14/83



" In fact, much information about alcoholism has little scientific value and ignores the fact that it is indeed a disease. Alcoholism is "a chronic, primary, hereditary disease which progresses from an early, physiological susceptibility into an addiction characterized by tolerance changes, physiological dependence and loss of control over drinking" the causes of alcoholism, the symptoms, its effect on people, as well as methods of treating and preventing it, are all crucial to an understanding of this crippling disease."

To place the addiction of the affair participants in the same likeness of alcoholism is misinformed and harmful to alcoholics and the families of those trying to recover.

An affair addiction and alcoholism are completely, enormously different and cannot be compared, either the recovery of or the classification of.

Out of respect for my dad and all the other alcoholics I have known and lossed, I felt compelled to post this.

Rachel,

My heart goes out to you. Your H violated you in a way that I'm not sure I could ever forgive, ...if it were me. I commend you.

Regardless, of thoughts, opinions, and harsh words that are being thrown about here, I believe that not everyone's situation is black and white. And I understand that you are not trying to 'romanticize'. Your feelings are real, whether they are right or wrong, moral or immoral.

I don't have much advice to give, but just wanted to let you know, there are many here who feel sympathy, empathy and compassion.

weaver, while I will agree that they are divergently different things, there are very close parallels that are very relevent to this discussion. Both are profoundly destructive and share a common denominator in that the subject is lost in a fantasy world.

As a recovering alcoholic, there are many traits of the WS in which I can easily relate and understand. So, I do believe the analogy is very relevent.

Can you tell I dislike affairs and the people who have affairs and attempt to break up marriages.

I have absolutely no respect for these "destroyers".

They have no excuse for what they have done.

They cannot even say it was an "addiction"!

Thank you so much for your kind words, Juliana.
There is just something about kindness that makes me cry; like when someone gives me a hug, it just let's out those inner emotions.

My affair(s) were wrong.
What my H did was wrong.
Is one wronger than the other?
I don't know.

I think my post was over-looked as it is back aways, but it was soooo personal that it is probably just as well.

Thanks for caring
Rachel

MelodyLane, I know all about how horrid the ACTS are. I am a BS, after all.

At this point, after going back and reading our posts back and forth, I believe the original thought is gone.

This is a public forum. We all have the right to throw whatever words around that we want. My belief is that some words are more helpful than others.

You actually believe the same thing, just different words, I think! And that is OK.

My original post on this thread is regarding the fact that a lot of the language used here is IN MY OPINION, Disrespectful and Judgemental.

I am not perfect. I actually have AO and DJ much more often than I care to admit to myself. And when I read others doing that, there is a small subconscious message to my brain that in certain circumstances, if the pain is great enough, if the offense is horrible enough, it is OK for me to have AO and DJ's.

I think Penny's boards may suit me better at this stage of my own personal recovery. Perhaps I shouldn't have even shared that on this thread, as it is my choice to simply come and go.

I just found it very ironic, on a thread to try and keep certain members here at MB, there were posts that I consider inflamatory as WS's are trying to share and understand their feelings.

I personally know that the more I can explore a feeling, the more I learn about that feeling. Telling someone they are wrong for sharing, what does that get us?

Personally, Rachel, I think you romanicize your OM because you H treated you in a horrible way. I think if my H did that to me, no matter what my "offense," I would find a TREE more appealing than him. My point is, without being explored, how is Rachel ever to know what this "feeling" is she is feeling? Her "feeling" for the OM might simply be the other side of a negative feeling she has for her H.

Only now, after totally defogging, has my H come to know what his "feelings" were during the A. And only through talking about them, analyzing them, challenging them, do we learn. If he had kept them all inside, afraid to tell me about them, where would I be? Maybe not in recovery.

I have no hard feelings towards anyone. If I sounded judging here today, that was not my intention. Nobody here has the ability to harm me. And I guess my original comment is not how I really feel - I do feel safe here. I can understand why others do not, though. And that saddens me.

baba- I see that you have well over 7000 posts.
What exactly do you think your particular posts here are contributing to this discussion?

Shortly after D-day I developed the habit of putting OM down. My wife was offended because it was an indirect insult at her. I wish I had done a better job with that, but I desperately wanted to show OM was no good for her. I think most WWs that reconcile with H do so because OM is not as good as BH----- that is obvious. Otherwise why leave all those good times behind. BTW, my wife was not OW as OM was separated.

I read the emails my wife wrote to OM and it was very gratifying to find out all other FWWs in recovery had done exactly the same. If we had no WWs in this site I would not be here. A lot of my healing has come from talking to FWWs who have verified EVERYTHING my wife told me about the Affair. I need to understand this whole thing and FWWs are VERY IMPORTANT.

I have also discovered that the FWWs that want to stay married have a lot in common. They tend to be a little insecure, but also show a great deal of nobility

SS - I agree with you entirely.

ML- messages conveyed using the tone and language in some I have seen here do nothing but anger, insult and drive away those you are trying to talk to. Is Rachel's marriage- or husband- really helped by continually characterizing what she did in such terms? In order to get someone to change they have to first be willing to listen-and actually hear what you say.