Great weekend. Discovered that WW broke NC and has been calling OM again (cell phone). I suspected this as her behavior changed about 1 1/2 weeks ago. It was so evident that something was up, even her Bro picked up on it. I asked her, and she came clean about calling him.

Anyway, this is the spot I am in. I, without an angry outburst, told her how it made me feel, why NC was important and asked her why she started calling OM again (she was doing well for 4 weeks).

She said it hurt not talking to him, she was getting depressed and it made her feel good (withdrawal). I replied that it was going to hurt but it would pass and that each time she restarted contact that it was only going lengthen the withdrawal and be more painful.

What hurt me the most out of all of this is that now she will not even promise me that she won't contact OM again. Said that she broke last promise and can't guarantee NC but will try. I felt i could not force a promise out of her, a promise that wouldn't mean anything, and she wouldn't keep.

I told her I would not tolerate this in our M, and that there would be consequences. Then admitted, she had me, there is really nothing I can do if she contacts him. What? Am I going to seek D, I'd lose my 2yr old S. I wouldn't be there everyday as he grows up, in fact I'd end up a weekend dad, and worse yet, years down the road be replaced by a step dad.

In WW infinite wisdom (fog) she states that would never happen. If we got D, I could see him every day and would still be huge part of both their lives. Basically, I would be the same support person I am now, but WW would be xWW and could then sleep around with whoever she wants. Nice. (That's the way I see it). She would not remarry and I would not have to worry about a stepdad (dreamland).

Well, after I dismiss the ramblings of my misguided WW, I put the ball in her court. I can't be around all the time to stop her. I can't control what she does. WW just needs to understand the pain and damage she is causing. I know it has only been phone contact, but we all know that can easily escalate, and we can never move on until she stops. WW also cannot decide what to do. She doesn't know if she wants to be M, is torn. I asked her if she caught me w/OW now, after her A, what would she do, how would she feel? Answer: Divorce. Why? Because you betrayed me. Me: To betray you, that means that you would have to have feelings for me, and love, and care about me, that I am a safe place. Nice how foggy minds work. To top everything off, huge intimacy issues, to the point of if I touch her arm she recoils in disgust. She acts like a rape victim.

Anyway, question to all you vets out there, what's a guy to do? I believe that there should be consequences to actions, yet I can't think of any deterrants to her continued actions. I don't want to lose my son, I don't want to lose my W. I feel like I am trapped. Any advice?

Bear04,

what's a guy to do?

Has the A been exposed to all concerned?

k

Yes. OM is single guy, no strings. A has been exposed to WW parents and bros. Was on Dday. I informed her father last night of continued contact as WW is staying at there house. Deal with them was she could stay there while we work things out as long as she shows commitment to M. Also, keep him up to date per his request. Doesn't want to get a bombshell like a breakup in his lap when he thinks we are working it out.

Bear,

My FWH came back in June and contacted OW in June, July and Aug by phone. The addiction is terrible to let go of. By Sept when I found the cell bill with OW number on it I went out and told him it wasn't going to work out with us. He told me he would never contact her again. He hasn't so far. We have been clean Sept, Oct, and Nov so far. It is possible to get through withdrawals but sometimes with setbacks. Hopefully minor ones. Hang in there. Contact again doesn't mean it is over with, it can still recover it just starts back at the beginning each time.

My FWH just had a conversation where I asked him if he loved me and if his feelings came back for me and he said yes. He has no desire to speak with OW now. If she could only see that she was 4 weeks into withdrawals and clearly on her way out of them. Just keep with the program. Is she on AD? They really do help with withdrawals.

HINY

No she is not on AD's, but has discussed them with MC. Everyone involved has the opinion that WW suffers from depression and self esteem probs, has suffered prior to A, and may be contributing factor to A, and that she does need to get help. How do you tell someone they are sick and need to get on meds? Who really is going to want to hear and accept that? It would make me feel much better if she would at least talk to a Dr. about this.

Bear,
Sorry to hear she fell of the wagon. Truth is, she probably never intended to stay on permanently in the first place and was only motivated by guilt or fear.

So what to do now?

First of all..there IS no try. Think Yoda..do or do not do. When you ask someone to do something and they say they will "try"..what they are really saying is I have no intention of doing this however I wish to avoid a conflict with you.

Bearing that in mind..what is your plan? You do realize that Plan A and Plan B are designed to be used together? That Plan A is only meant to be executed over a brief period of time?

So what is your time frame for Plan A? And aside from hurt feelings, what does her contact really mean anyway? Not much. The WS who manages NC on the first attempt is in the minority. Most cake eat as long as allowed..and that currently works in your favor. If you are Plan Aing..I would suggest you continue to do so..but be very certain that YOU know just how long you plan to do this before Plan B is in order. Get ready for Plan B..start working on your letter. I think that having a plan may help you to detach from the immediate situation and focus on the ultimate goal..saving your marriage if it can be saved..or allowing yourself to let go knowing you have done all that you can.

At this point it is probably not helpfull to try and educate her..I'd just validate her feelings of pain and loss and focus on meeting those ENs as much as she will allow. While it is fine to express disappointment and pain..I wouldn't make it the fiocus of daily life or expect much out of her. She is a weak sickly little addict and is not in her right mind.

Good luck and don't panic too much, this journey has only just begun, there are miles to go, corners to turn, and the conclusion is yet unknown.

Noodle

Mentally, I hear what you say and understand all of this. Emotionally, this is hell. I, at least, have the "comfort" of this sight, and the information it contains which allows me to understand and expect what is going to happen next.

Plan A. How is my plan A going. I do a decent job of controlling outbursts, etc., though I am human and do slip. Other than that, I don't know if my plan A is effective at all, if it is enough. I don't think it is breaking through any fog, and I have to many setbacks, feel like I am at square 1. I would like her to move home so I could have more contact with her. I feel it would be easier to conduct a plan A in that sitch.

Time frame for plan A is 6 months. What I can't decide is if it should be 6 months from Dday or from the time I found this site, or from the time she moves back home (agreement with P's says she can stay there til 12/11/04, as long as she works toward reconciling, then she is out). I am thinking end of April right now, sigificant because our 5 yr anniversary is end of April and sons Bday is beginning of May.

MC advised me to do a 180 type plan 1 1/2 weeks age, about the time NC was broken. I don't think that is going to work for me.

Fear I have about breaking NC. If there is no deterrant, why would she stop her calling? (Pavlovian theory) If the action has no immediate perceived consequences, why would she stop. I agree about the try thing, that came out of her mouth, I knew the real answer, "I'll stop til I feel like calling him"

Wondering if exposure about broken NC to her P's was good idea. WW's dad was mad, this is happening at his house and WW is not only breaking promise to me, but also deal with her own P's. They feel hurt that she is lying to them as well.

Bear,

You stated that you 'feared' losing your family and that is a valid emotional reaction toward a divorce that may come about because of your WW's ongoing contact with the OM. But you know what? It may still come about if she decides to file for divorce. So what should you do? First, emotionally accept the truth that you are not the only one that can push the detonation button on your marriage. And second, start preparing a time frame to go into Plan B. To many BS spend way too much time in Plan A that their love bank ends up closing and then they opt for divorce. Don't kid yourself that recovery is easier than an ongoing affair. You have to have enough love left in order to weather the initial rocky beginnings of recovery. Lastly, if you haven't done so already, start doing things that don't involve your WW. Join a worthy cause and volunteer a few hours a week to it [there's no feeling like helping your fellow human beings that are worse off than you are], restart long forgetten hobbies, and even make new friends which may include women [no not to have an affair with]. You'd be surprised how many WS come out of their fog when they see that the BS is no longer bugging them and are moving on with their lives. Will your WW be one of these WS? Who knows, and who cares because the point is to help you emotionally, mentally and physically not only survive, but to thrive no matter what happens to your marriage.

TMCM

I would start the plan A clock, if you will, fromthe moment you became aware of and began to execute it.

Six months sounds reasonable..very textbook.

Plan A is not going to end her A in all likelyhood. Lets focus on filling those ENs in preparation for plan B. THAT is when the consequences for continued contact hit her square in the chest. I think to focus on plan B while executing plan A may help with the worst of the emotional rolloercoaster. Detach as much as possible. Think of it as a surgery. You are trying to remove a cancer..but you have to see an awful lot of guts and unpleasantness in your attempt.

The worst has already happenned. There is nothing left to brace for..you are trying to reverse what has already occured, does that make sense?

It is ok to grieve the former marriage, that is dead and gone. Your efforts are to help her go forward with you if she chooses in a new one.

Plan A is for DURING her active affair..she will probably be in contact with OM during this phase.

Plan B is if plan A did not end the A [it usually does not] this is to remove you from the equation..remove what she has been receiving from you completely..so that she will miss what is lost and consider life without you. it is also to allow you to detach and be ready to move on emotionally and to give you some relief from the rollercoaster. Perhaps most importantly to protect the love you have for her..you may find it hard to imagine now..but six months of poor treatment and having OM shoved in your face can do a number on your desire to remain married to her. If you need to go to plan B before six months because of this..do not waiver, just do it.

Recovery is when she ends her affair and actively recommits to the marriage and to NC for life.

I think a lot of trouble is caused by the blurring of these lines. Especially Plan B/Recovery...look around the board is rife with people who caved too soon..fruit picked before it is ripe is bitter, let's let it mature and come willingly, nay eagerly.

Noodle

Bear: If there is no deterrant, why would she stop her calling? (Pavlovian theory) If the action has no immediate perceived consequences, why would she stop.

Bear I understand your problem here. My attractive WW is doing the same thing. She sees that she can get any guy she wants at the clubs. This is usually the case with WW (as we all know from the club scene, it's ladies choice). I have realized that I really can't control my WW. I feel we both don't have any deterents available to us. Besides I think I would rather have her choose me because of who I am and the familly not because what deterents I put up for her (this came from someone wiser then me here on MB).

All I can say is I wish my WW was where yours is at now, and that maybe there can still be hope for you down the road! Best of Luck.

OK, Plan A rules. I am going to spell out my plan A and maybe you all can help me shape one I can put into practice and execute. I'll break it into two parts: what I do/don't do for her & what I do for me.

Do/Don't do for Her

No LB's, no angry outbursts.
Treat her with respect even when shown none.
Continue to meet her financial needs.
Meet my parental duties.
Will not force my opinions on her, tell her what to think (she says I do that, also says I try to plant things in her head)
Commit random acts of kindness for her.
Keep a warm, clean, happy home to come back to.
Meet conversation needs (this will be tough, no desire to talk to me)
Will not enable her to go out partying by watching our son.
Don't ask her about her activities. (don't show I am worried about her going out, etc.)
I will make her more responsible for picking son up from daycare by making myself "unavailable".

This is going to be a WIP as now things such as cards, flowers (ENs in MC she said I lacked) are rejected and looked upon suspiciously. I will work my way up to that. Also, no affection or sexual needs as well, she won't let me touch her. Again, hope I can work my way up to that. This part has been pretty rough.

Do for me

I will go out more, try to make new friends. (This is hard, because I have no desire/to tired emotionally to make friends. Also, I feel guilt as I am befriending them, and when/if M resumes will tend to push out friendship)
I will become more independant. Laundry, cooking, etc. (Easy as I do most of this now)
Renew old frienships (also tough as talk will surely come around about WW)
Go back to church
Finish home improvement projects I have started.

Bottom line is to live me life independant of my WW and to show her that I can.

More additions? I have read Ark's plan A tips. Many of them seem so far out of my character.

Exposure is your best friend.

Do not be afraid of making her angry.

Expose to anyone whose opinion counts

Bear,

Your list looks pretty good to this newbie, I'm wondering how you plan on not letting her go out by watching your son? Can you please explain your situation?

Hi Bear. I've read a number of your posts so far because the length of your wife's affair and the length of time past DD is similar to my situation. There are a lot of things different in your situation to mine but maybe some of my comments might be useful.

One, your wife has reasons to be depressed post affair, loss of attention, loss of fantasy, loss of stability in hers and your situation. She is under incredible stress (what do you think it is like living at home with her father potentially threatening to boot her out if she doesn't comply with certain behaviours?). That stress is likely creating terrific conflict in her. C with the OM relieves that stress. That C has to be secretive given the circumstances. An affair is insidious and thrives on secrecy. The secrecy adds to the stress and thrill. So secret communication can compell the A forward once again. So, what to do?

I've been getting through this without anti-depressants or tranquilizers for two reasons: one, I believe that grieving is an important process when a relationship ends or changes, and two, I'm proud and would not want the OM to know that I had to be medicated because of him. But the urge to C the OM is sometimes overwhelming. I cannot tell you how powerful it is: I'm from a family of alcoholics and heroine addicts and I believe that the urge is similar.

So what has helped me? Basically a buddy system - someone to call when the urge to C the OM becomes overwhelming. I had several friends in the early weeks who helped me through this as well as a counsellor. However, my husband helped me greatly by not freaking out at my first few telephone contacts. He simply said, "Let me know if he contacts you or if you contact him." That was step one (similar to what happened with you). Being able to trust him about C helped. Next, he started to regain my trust and affection by letting me talk about the affair (not all of it was positive, but I had to process what happened, understand how it happened, why it happened, why it snowballed so much, looking at the information on this site helped me immeasurably). Your wife will miss the OM desperately (which is a good sign, she's not cold-hearted and manipulative, she's human and warm, reasons you love her, right?). Let her know that you understand that she will miss him. Let her know that if she feels an overwhelming need to C him that she can contact you. You might want to up your telephone contact with her to help her through this. Ask her how she is feeling. She may not want to open up but she will appreciate your inquiries. Keep helping her through the stress. She will come to realize that you are the one who will be there to help and that the OM is not the answer.

Just being able to tell someone (especially my husband) that I missed the other man, that I felt like contacting him, was a HUGE relief. So many people think that a WW or WH just gets over an affair. Yeah, we'll get over it just as quickly as the BS (sarcasm to be noted here). She is not contacting him to intentionally hurt you but to relieve stress. The OM made it very safe for your wife to express her feelings. Fight fire with fire, step in and actively let her know that you understand her feelings and that it is safe for her to express them with you. It's manipulative but it works.

If she starts talking, you might eventually want to ask her what she intends to gain by contacting him. Ask her what has changed in THEIR relationship. Let her know that discovery has changed YOUR relationship (potentially for the better because you can rebuild together) and it didn't change your love for her.

Interesting points BDGD. I know WW is under stress and is in pain. I have told her such. I went so far as to tell her that though this is hard on me, she is dealing with so much more. A ggod sign I take from this is that when I asked if she had called OM, she said yes and did not lie. I credit her for that and thanked her.

BDGD- How should I approach this. I want to tell WW that when she feels those urges to call OM, call me instead. Remember, she says her best days are when she gets NC from ME. She doesn't want to see, hear, talk to me. However, I still need to be faithful and there if she feels like it. No big deal, I have said this won't happen overnight, but I would like to know that it does not cause her pain to talk to me.

Is some of this an act? I was sitting next to her on couch yesterday and we were talking. When I got up I patted her on the knee, nothing big. She recoiled, jumped and reacted as though I'd just grabbed her crotch. I wondered at the time how much acting that was. Any thoughts?

Another grave concern. WW says that she is having strong urges to have sex. Of course, I told her, Hello! Same urges here it has been much longer for me. I also said, if you need SF, do it with me, I AM YOUR H. Said she can't see doing that with me ever again. (But I suppose OM, where there is no future and all she is is a piece of a** to him, that's OK). This was a very stupid conversation that came out of desperation when talk turned to her having those needs. What am I supposed to say in that sitch? There is no answer, other than I told her that I was her ONLY option and I said, "You do know that if you do that to me we will be over." I can understand the phone call, I absolutely won't take her sleeping with any other man.

Native--

We live in a smaller community (pop. less than 10,000). It is hard to go out on town when you have a 2yr old. She is staying at P's house with son. If she asks me to watch him so she can go out partying, I refuse. Her P's refuse to watch him as well. ANd are not going to allow a sitter in their house. She also knows that, even though she is grown, she is living under their roof and should abide by their house rules. Only other option is SIL, which she used on Saturday. SIL knows that she should not enable, frankly, doesn't want to get in middle of it. So Sat when WW asked if she would watch son, SIL said sorry going to movie. WW said that'd fine, not going out til 10. Put SIL on spot. SIL agreed only if she drove WW to bar scene and picked her up to take home. I was not very happy neither were P's about her needing to go out. These aren't clubs, more like your local bar. I knew who she was with, I was just worried about running into OM. But this is a small town and she KNOWS that I would find out, by cell phone, that night. One of my friends would see her and call me.

I know this sounds controlling, difficult, etc. But part of plan A, as I understood it, was to not enable A. Well, we have just decided to not enable corruptive activity.

Bear,

You seem to have a talent for recruiting your wife's family to weigh in on your side. Congratulations.

May I ask you whether your disclosure of the problem to your wife's folks was done with her consent, or without? How did that go?

Thanks.

No consent, in fact she doesn't know I tell them. Why should I partipate in keeping her secrets? Her P's and I have very strong relationship. I know that they could turn on me if it all goes bad, but what do I have to lose? I more worried about WW. Her actions are seriously getting to the point that if it all goes bad she could be disowned. I am serious there, I've heard that talk from P's. They are so sick of what she is doing to me and their grandson.

I have to add that I wouldn't want to be part of a family that sides with the cheating spouse. If I did what she did, I wouldn't dare go near their place, in fact I would leave town out of fear. So you could say they are treating her with compassion. Their style.

No knack, I have been a close member of thei family for 10 years, even b4 we were M. BIL, FIL have both made comment they can't figure out WW. I am a great guy and that I have EARNED their respect an place in family. Pat on my back, but I have earned that over many years of doing the right thing and being there for the family when needed. It's also not hard to "recruit" when they see their daughter throwing away a R with someone they see as a great H.

<small>[ November 22, 2004, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: Bear04 ]</small>

Bear,

I am weighing pros and cons of involving my wife's only living relative, her grandmother.

My concern is that this may do more bad than good, i.e., get the Grandma so excited that her health suffers. We don't have kids, so not much is at stake, when compared to your situation.

It's good though that your wife's parents are on your side.

Regards,

Bear04,

Sorry, I just read the thread and would like to comment on PLan A/B. I want to echo the comments made by noodle. I personally, went through a very short Plan A and went right into Plan B( I want to reiterate I went into both without knowing of the existence of either).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think a lot of trouble is caused by the blurring of these lines. Especially Plan B/Recovery...look around the board is rife with people who caved too soon..fruit picked before it is ripe is bitter, let's let it mature and come willingly, nay eagerly </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have not caved after almost 7 months of a pretty good Plan B( I screwed up the exposure part, exposed way too late. I also have screwed up the financial aspect of Plan B. This is being rectified as we speak. I have stopped paying her bills and will take the credit repercussions as they come). I suspect my WW's A was an exit affair and that there might have been NOTHING that would stop that freight train. I will say that as hard as my Plan B was, it saved me MOST of the gut wrenching stories I read about from posters in bad Plan A/B's.

While I still love my WW and always will, Plan B has given me the strength to move on. It helps you accept the fact that you can't make anyone do anything.I feel that fact is one that escapes most of the posters here on MB. I could have caved several times when she asked me to come back but I have never wavered from the importance of the NC letter. If I had caved, the brief respite it brings would have been far surpassed by the inevitable renewed betrayal.

I guess what I am saying is YOU can't do anything about losing your wife. Only she can. YOU can avoid assisting your spouse in her amoral pursuits.In portraying that strong man she was attracted to in the beginning of your R, you ALWAYS create a fertile field for her renewed love or if that fails to materialize, that of another.

Best of luck.