I have read and reread the articles on Plan A/B in an attempt to learn from the mistakes that I have made so far. I have found several. First though I would like to address Plan A and reaching agreement on NC.

According to the MB principles, a break in NC does not mean a departure from plan A. In fact, a refusal to agreee to NC are the reasons for plan A/B to be implemented. [But what can a betrayed spouse do when the unfaithful spouse refuses to totally separate from the lover? That's where plan A and plan B come to the rescue.]

So, I have established that in my case, NC has not been achieved after almost 3 months post Dday. NC starts and then is broken. The reasons...

My first request for NC was made in the presence of MC, no Angry Outbursts, no Selfish Demands (at least in my point of view, maybe not in WW's foggy mind), Disrespectful Judgement, maybe, imposing my will upon WW, I think a stretch. That request was run through like a stop sign. It was, however, not specific enough. Thinking back WW agreed to not "see" OM anymore. In her mind, phone calls were still in play.

Second request for NC was achieved using a bigtime Angry Outburst when I discovered phone contact was still being made. It was effective...for four weeks. Now I am back in the same sitch. WW tells me NC broken because she was depressed, etc. Withdrawal syptoms. Clearly though, it was broken because it was achieved by the wrong means.

Most recent request for NC was made on 11/21. Broken on 11/22. This request was made this way..."when you call OM it hurts me dearly. For me, it is like reliving that day (Dday) all over again. I cannot tolerate OM in our M. I cannot live like this. I am asking you not to contact him again." Thought I did well, she would not promise to NC because she said she couldn't keep promise before. Then I find out the calls continue and I respond this way..."I am asking you not to call OM again. This is a choice I am giving you, to call OM or not call him. If I find out that you continue to call him, then I am going to have a choice that I am going to have to make." Not a very good way to negotiate IMO. So, now I am of the opinion that she is still calling OM even though I have no proof.

Here is the score, I have done a poor job of negotiating NC without using Angry Outbursts, Disrespectful Judgements, or Selfish Demands. I get the AO and how they apply, DJ's those apply as well (I cannot "straighten her out"), SD's, mmmm, I am making a demand, is it selfish to ask WW to stop talking to OM? It is by definition, though, not negotiating.

What to do? Plan A should continue for it's predetermined time frame. So I cannot go to plan B because of refusal to NC. If that were the case, plan A would never exist. Here is the question that I am going to ask you all. How can I negotiate NC with my WW short of simply repeatedly asking her to NC and telling her I feel when she does contact OM? Is it possible to negotiate NC with a WS in a foggy state of mind? I don't think so.

Negotiations are to include addressing the causes of the A. 1) unmet ENs, 2) WS not taking into account BS felings, 3) lifestyle issues. WW will not allow me to meet ENs. Obviously not taking into account my feelings. In fact, she doesn't really want to be around me, so she says.

Any comments or suggestions?

I finally decided that I was going to stop asking, demanding etc. I am ashamed to say that I even allowed myself to become part of the phone call drama when WW would not cease completely (I have called him and answered his calls on her cell...with WW knowledge too).

Anyway, my WW knows that I will not tolerate any kind of contact with OM and that I will eventually leave if she does not fully committ to NC.

I believe that it is hard for her, and that makes it hard for me on so many levels.

My WW has been attempting NC for around a month. Every time she starts, it gets a little easier to restart sooner after a relapse.

There is still time left in my Plan A and life is getting better between us so I have found a little more compassion to be paitent with her lack of total committment and follow through on the NC issue.

Good luck to ya!

Well, I am not sure what to tell you. Talking about a bunch of boundaries is a bunch of complete BS IF YOU don't back up these "boundaries" with consequences. But you are right, this is all so confusing, because everyone on here always says "just tell (WS) them how this hurts you when they see the OW/OM"...yet YOU ARE not allowed to do anything about it b/c you are in PLAN A. It is a lot of nonsense IMO. I feel your pain. I hope someone can give you some good advice here. You may just have to suck it up .....HEY, but at least you will stay married. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Boundaries are USELESS without repercussions of being crossed. BY your actions, your wife knows that there are NO CONSEQUENCES to her contacting OM. There always seems to be some small technicallity that you accept b/c you can't enforce your own boundaries. Many BS here have great...and I mean great ability to rationalize any WS action if it will help them stay in PLan A. You kind of have to live with this if you are gonna stay in Plan A. At least you can be comforted by the fact that YOU YOURSELF are choosing this path. The pain you suffer daily is a direct result of YOUR choice to stay with your wife, so that at least should allow you to feel in more control. Good luck.

[[The pain you suffer daily is a direct result of YOUR choice to stay with your wife, so that at least should allow you to feel in more control. Good luck.]]

Uhh, thanks Lemonman, I guess. Boundaries, yes, boundaries and repercussions for crossing those boundaries. The only repercussion is plan B and that only comes after repeated boundary crossing. I think our difference is that you have a one strike attitude, whereas plan A is multistrike, hang in the game to show your worth, then pull the plug.

So Lemon, what is the penalty to WS for crossing the boundary. Leaving them. That doesn't save the M.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bear04:
<strong> [[The pain you suffer daily is a direct result of YOUR choice to stay with your wife, so that at least should allow you to feel in more control. Good luck.]]

Uhh, thanks Lemonman, I guess. Boundaries, yes, boundaries and repercussions for crossing those boundaries. The only repercussion is plan B and that only comes after repeated boundary crossing. I think our difference is that you have a one strike attitude, whereas plan A is multistrike, hang in the game to show your worth, then pull the plug.

So Lemon, what is the penalty to WS for crossing the boundary. Leaving them. That doesn't save the M. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, that is the question isn't it. I actually have a TWO strike attitude (NOT ONE) when it comes to betrayal. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. I am very anxious to hear what people say what the consequences of her crossing your boundaires should be. Many people are so quick to tell you to set "boundaries", but can't seem to come up with answers to the repercusions for those boundaries. My suspicion is you are gonna have to just "suck it up" and keep letting your wife know that "her making contact hurts you" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Just keep on Plan A'ing I guess. meet her EN's, give her admiration, let her cry on your shoulder as she mourns the pain of the OM. I am not telling you to leave your marriage, but I don't quite understand what you are so confused about. You seem to "get" the Plan A methods and obviously believe in them. You just have to be able to withstand these "multistrikes" in the Plan A. The recovery process and ending the affair (as you know, and as spelled out here and by Harley himself ) is a very long, arduous and painful time. BUT.....you can emerge with your marriage intact...as you know. I guess only you will know when your heart and dignity, and self pride can no longer accept the "multistrikes", and you need to retreat for cover (PLan B). Goodluck.

Actually, Bear04, lemonman is more on the money than you may care to realize.

New BS (and BSs who don't want to face it) often make the mistake to think that Plan A means "meet the WS's ENs at all costs--no matter how they treat you." In fact, that is 100% incorrect, and if that method is followed it leads to an unhealthy, co-dependent, doormat relationship.

TRUE Plan A has to do with YOU, not your WS so much. When you and your WS met, you had natural qualities that attracted her. You made the effort to seem attractive to her, and you let your EN-meeting side come out. Over the course of the years, the kids and the bills and the careers and the activities slowly eroded the natural EN-meeting side of you and the LB-ing side was allowed out more and more. Plan A means that you GET REAL with yourself and admit that you have engaged in LB behavior: DJs, AOs, SDs, etc. Soooo...you get back in touch with your TRUE SELF and start to practice being that naturally EN-meeting guy again. You control YOURSELF so that you don't treat your spouse disrespectfully...so that you don't aim angry outbursts at her...so that you don't selfishly demand your way and ignore her way.

Bear04, you are clearly a smart man (since you grasped the basic concepts so well so quickly). I suspect you are also funny, interesting, and financially supportive. When you and your WS first met, what other ENs did you meet just naturally? I bet you guys took TIME and had long talks about what you thought and felt--right? You made the effort to do those little affectionate things, right, because she was just so awesome! You were open with her and let her see your vulnerable side. Bear04, Plan A means BEING THAT MAN AGAIN. It's about YOU, not her.

And the more you become that man again, and the more that you come back into alignment with your True Self, you will begin to re-establish self-worth and self-esteem. You will consider yourself valuable and worthy of respectful treatment. Well...continuing to contact the OP is the ultimate disrespect!!! If you consider yourself a valuable human being, you will say to your S, "I love you and I choose to be with you, but I will no longer accept being treated disrespectfully in our relationship (R). WS, you are a fully grown woman capable of making your own choices and decisions--and I hope that you value me and our R enough to suffer through brief withdrawal to strengthen our M; however, if you will not treat me with dignity and respect, then I can no longer have that kind of R. I deserve to be treated lovingly and so do you, and I am willing to suffer some personal hurt to treat you that way. Now it's up to you. You may choose for your life: work with me to create a new, mutual, respectful, fulfilling relationship with NC with the OM of any kind -or- continue to C the OM, treat me with disrespect knowing it hurts me, and choose to end our R. I will not accept anything less."

The reason people say you need a good Plan A before you go into Plan B is that if you have not reconnected to your True Self before you go into Plan B, then YOU have not recovered. You would not know the smart, funny, pleasant, interesting, honest man that you are--you'd still be in touch with that LB-ing side of you.

So you decide, Bear04. Have you found YOUR True Self and made the effort to show her your EN-meeting side that you just know is inside you and has been hiding? If you have, and if you have good self-esteem and self-worth, then it is not wise to continue to let her break NC without a consequence. It sends her the message that it is okay with you that she continue to treat you with disrespect and hurt. It's not okay!!! You don't need to threaten her--this is not an ultimatum--it's stating a fact. You love yourself and you are going to enforce respectful treatment ALL THE TIME!!!


CJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bear04:
So Lemon, what is the penalty to WS for crossing the boundary. Leaving them. That doesn't save the M.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOUD exposure of the affair in ever widening circles ... everyone you know.

Pep

Well said Faithfull!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulNewCJ:
<strong> Actually, Bear04, lemonman is more on the money than you may care to realize.

New BS (and BSs who don't want to face it) often make the mistake to think that Plan A means "meet the WS's ENs at all costs--no matter how they treat you." In fact, that is 100% incorrect, and if that method is followed it leads to an unhealthy, co-dependent, doormat relationship.

TRUE Plan A has to do with YOU, not your WS so much. When you and your WS met, you had natural qualities that attracted her. You made the effort to seem attractive to her, and you let your EN-meeting side come out. Over the course of the years, the kids and the bills and the careers and the activities slowly eroded the natural EN-meeting side of you and the LB-ing side was allowed out more and more. Plan A means that you GET REAL with yourself and admit that you have engaged in LB behavior: DJs, AOs, SDs, etc. Soooo...you get back in touch with your TRUE SELF and start to practice being that naturally EN-meeting guy again. You control YOURSELF so that you don't treat your spouse disrespectfully...so that you don't aim angry outbursts at her...so that you don't selfishly demand your way and ignore her way.

Bear04, you are clearly a smart man (since you grasped the basic concepts so well so quickly). I suspect you are also funny, interesting, and financially supportive. When you and your WS first met, what other ENs did you meet just naturally? I bet you guys took TIME and had long talks about what you thought and felt--right? You made the effort to do those little affectionate things, right, because she was just so awesome! You were open with her and let her see your vulnerable side. Bear04, Plan A means BEING THAT MAN AGAIN. It's about YOU, not her.

And the more you become that man again, and the more that you come back into alignment with your True Self, you will begin to re-establish self-worth and self-esteem. You will consider yourself valuable and worthy of respectful treatment. Well...continuing to contact the OP is the ultimate disrespect!!! If you consider yourself a valuable human being, you will say to your S, "I love you and I choose to be with you, but I will no longer accept being treated disrespectfully in our relationship (R). WS, you are a fully grown woman capable of making your own choices and decisions--and I hope that you value me and our R enough to suffer through brief withdrawal to strengthen our M; however, if you will not treat me with dignity and respect, then I can no longer have that kind of R. I deserve to be treated lovingly and so do you, and I am willing to suffer some personal hurt to treat you that way. Now it's up to you. You may choose for your life: work with me to create a new, mutual, respectful, fulfilling relationship with NC with the OM of any kind -or- continue to C the OM, treat me with disrespect knowing it hurts me, and choose to end our R. I will not accept anything less."

The reason people say you need a good Plan A before you go into Plan B is that if you have not reconnected to your True Self before you go into Plan B, then YOU have not recovered. You would not know the smart, funny, pleasant, interesting, honest man that you are--you'd still be in touch with that LB-ing side of you.

So you decide, Bear04. Have you found YOUR True Self and made the effort to show her your EN-meeting side that you just know is inside you and has been hiding? If you have, and if you have good self-esteem and self-worth, then it is not wise to continue to let her break NC without a consequence. It sends her the message that it is okay with you that she continue to treat you with disrespect and hurt. It's not okay!!! You don't need to threaten her--this is not an ultimatum--it's stating a fact. You love yourself and you are going to enforce respectful treatment ALL THE TIME!!!


CJ </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I must say, that was a great explnantion of "Plan A". Sadly, I just don't think many people really do that on here...and perhaps that is why I am so frustrated and skeptical of it . YOur explanation was actually quite marvelous re-readng it. Very nice post. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bear04:
So Lemon, what is the penalty to WS for crossing the boundary. Leaving them. That doesn't save the M.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOUD exposure of the affair in ever widening circles ... everyone you know.

Pep </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok Pep (or anyone who cares to respond) , for arguments sake, lets just assume that Bear04 has already done exposure. Yet, one month after D-day, the OM contact boundary crossing is still happening. What next? WHat is the next recourse for "consequence"...besides PLan B? I am really interested in hearing your response. I am looking for a specific example of what to DO (NOT JUST SAY !!!!) , not just generalizations. Thank you in advance for your response.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulNewCJ:
<strong> Well...continuing to contact the OP is the ultimate disrespect!!! If you consider yourself a valuable human being, you will say to your S, "I love you and I choose to be with you, but I will no longer accept being treated disrespectfully in our relationship (R). WS, you are a fully grown woman capable of making your own choices and decisions--and I hope that you value me and our R enough to suffer through brief withdrawal to strengthen our M; however, if you will not treat me with dignity and respect, then I can no longer have that kind of R. I deserve to be treated lovingly and so do you, and I am willing to suffer some personal hurt to treat you that way. Now it's up to you. You may choose for your life: work with me to create a new, mutual, respectful, fulfilling relationship with NC with the OM of any kind -or- continue to C the OM, treat me with disrespect knowing it hurts me, and choose to end our R. I will not accept anything less."


CJ </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Faithful:

Could you please clarify something for me. Now, let me first state that I think your post is great. My question is, when the BS Is stating this (as quoted above) to the WW (lets say 1 month after D-Day, what do you mean when you say "I will accept nothing less". WHen does the "accept nothing less" kick in? One month, 2 months, 3 months....WHEN. This is what noone ever addresses. I agree with what you are saying in principle, but WHEN DO YOU PLAN ACTION?. DO you really mean, "I will accept nothing less after 2 years of trying for recovery". PLease be specific, this is something that never gets addressed here. If Bear04 were to have this conversation with his WS tonight, when he can stop "accepting" the behavior? Is it the minimum PLan A time of three months that the grand puba Harley himself proposes? Thank you in advance for your reply.

Originally posted by lemonman:
lets just assume that Bear04 has already done exposure. Yet, one month after D-day, the OM contact boundary crossing is still happening. What next?

Re-expose .. contact OM's wife (if there is one) and tell about continued contact. Family members are advised about continued contact. Pastor ... anyone who matters (except non-adult children).

WHat is the next recourse for "consequence"...besides PLan B? I am really interested in hearing your response.

It varies... depending on the home front situation. Removing financial opportunities. Stop paying for things that are affair-related (cell phone cancelled, internet DSL cancelled, etc) Change locks on the house (if the affair is being conducted in the home). Don't be available to babysit while she has her trysts. Keeping records and journal of dates, phone bills, and other evidence in case of future child custody issues are being negociated. Not being home when she arrives at 3 AM... go to a motel.

I think 3 months is way too long most of the time for Plan A ... unless the pre-A marriage was especially hideous.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> Originally posted by lemonman:
lets just assume that Bear04 has already done exposure. Yet, one month after D-day, the OM contact boundary crossing is still happening. What next?

Re-expose .. contact OM's wife (if there is one) and tell about continued contact. Family members are advised about continued contact. Pastor ... anyone who matters (except non-adult children).

WHat is the next recourse for "consequence"...besides PLan B? I am really interested in hearing your response.

It varies... depending on the home front situation. Removing financial opportunities. Stop paying for things that are affair-related (cell phone cancelled, internet DSL cancelled, etc) Change locks on the house (if the affair is being conducted in the home). Don't be available to babysit while she has her trysts. Keeping records and journal of dates, phone bills, and other evidence in case of future child custody issues are being negociated. Not being home when she arrives at 3 AM... go to a motel.

I think 3 months is way too long most of the time for Plan A ... unless the pre-A marriage was especially hideous.

Pep </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you for the detailed response. I think that kind of DETAILED response will be most helpful to the OP and others. I really do enjoy your posts here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I think that is why the Plan A/B forum is empty. No one wants to do the hard work. Plan A is not easy! It was the hardest thing I have ever done.

The A continued for almost 5 months after d-day. Like bear04 said, that is what Plan A is for. If A ended on d-day, you don't need Plan A.

I admit I didn't do a stellar Plan A, but it gets the WS thinking/wondering if they are making the right choice. It is so very hard to emotionally detach, but that is what you have to do. You have to become your WS' best friend. Notice how we can offer support to a friend, but not to our spouse, because we are emotionally attached. But that is where the BS' greatest pain is during Plan A.

Plan A is for a limited period of time. You cannot keep 'giving' without getting anything in return for long. BUT that is what is required for the plan to work.

And the first order of business is stop the LBs. Hmmm...I wonder why WS doesn't want to be around the BS. Because we are always screaming and angry. I wouldn't want to be around a BS, either.

So the LBs must stop. It does not mean you stop being upset and angry. It means you find a different way to express it. Write it down. Go to IC. Post here. Whatever it takes for you to calm down enough to talk to your WS.

And isn't that the basis of a good M? That we can talk through difficult things calmly? THAT is POJA.

I just wanted to let you know that I had to go through 4 excruciating months in Plan A before NC was established. But a month before NC, I was asking FWS to move out. I probably would have started Plan B if he would have just left. But he didn't want to leave our home and that is where your hope lies.

Why hasn't your WS left? Because she knows that what she is doing is not right, but she just can't let go of the OW. We have to provide every reason for the WS to commit to the M.

Now, I have to ask, what has been your Plan A during these periods of NC? I didn't have the problem of WS not letting me meet ENs. BUT I'm sure you can do *something*. You're still living together, right? Can you talk? She needs you to be her friend right now. That is what she is looking for. Also, show her that yes, you would take her back if she ended the A (sometimes the WS does not believe that).

Make her coffee in the morning, ask her how her day was. Call her during the day just to say hi. I know these are the hardest things to do when the WS is fully engaged in an A, but that is the only way you can convince her to end it.

But the first thing you need to do is ELIMINATE ALL LBs. Fulfilling ENs will have no impact if you are still LB'ing. Take care of yourself. Find all the support you can. Because you are not gonna get your needs met for awhile.

I have to say that I heard it all. FWS did not want to promise NC, because he wasn't sure he could follow it. Well, we do come to a breaking point. Like you said, I couldn't live like that.

BUT Plan A does work. Do a stellar Plan A for the next month and then start Plan B. Unfortunately, there is no guarantee that Plan B will work, but you really need to start looking after yourself.

BTW, NC was established the day after FWS was looking at apartments with OW. He decided to end the A after hearing our daughter cry at night. (She was too young to know about our situation, but it made him realize the pain that he was inflicting on his family.)

We don't know what the future will hold. We don't know the 'thing' that makes the WS try to work on the M. But Plan A has proven to provide the atmosphere for the WS to return.

I don't know if I would call it luck or what, but it was easy for me to set that NC boundry with my ww because it came down from the state level.

My ww's A was causing the children such great pain that my eldest son went to school and talked about what he was feeling and because he used terms like hurt himself and run away, the school contacted Child Protective Services and they jumped all over my ww, They charged her with like four diffrent things, And they made it clear that if she have any contact with Om she will lose her parental rights as there mother and they will force her to attend parenting classes for a yr.

My Son I must say is doing much better, I have him seeing a family counselor who is helping him deal with all of this, I think sometimes we BS forget about the children and we don't think they really see or hear whats going on.

I never knew until CPS showed up that my ww's A had really hurt the children the way it did. They felt more betrayed then I did. My daughter is 12 and sleeps very little and has a lot of crying times on my shoulder, She told me the other day that if it was not for my strength and my williness to love her mother still she would have run away or done worse.

My kids come first even before my ww and thats just a hard truth.

I agree with the boundries only if the penalty is a stiff 2x4 ..ooops sounding like lemonman better stop.....LMAO....

Well I say boundries are only as good as the consequences and thats even if there are any..

Good luck...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mschluter:
<strong>
I think sometimes we BS forget about the children and we don't think they really see or hear whats going on.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sadly, I think this happens a lot. The "Plan A" or whatever becomes the sole focus of the BS and the poor children become secondary. (not on purposes obviously) THe "marriage recovery" is the goal "at all costs" and the BS cannot possibly provide for the children FULLY during all of this. It must be hard to try and do this. I am not a parent, I am just going on what I see here. It happens more than people would like to admit. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I just got back from IC (that went well? Let you know later)and need to go pick up my son from daycare. I read quickly through the responses and will get back to you all on my plan A, addressing NC etc. later tonight. I will say this, how i have been handling this is reexposing broken NC to WW P's, OM is single. Needless to say WW doesn't like it one bit. That is the consequence. Squeezing the A, exposing it, not enabling it.

Gotta go, continue the discussion because as Lemon says, this is the HARDEST concept for me (and probably many others) to get, what is the penalty for crossing boundaries. I think it was Pep who got specific, any others?

Got to go for now, be back.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lemonman:
<strong> I must say, that was a great explnantion of "Plan A". Sadly, I just don't think many people really do that on here...and perhaps that is why I am so frustrated and skeptical of it . YOur explanation was actually quite marvelous re-readng it. Very nice post. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks, lemon. I suspect you are correct--many people really do mistake "Plan A" for "Plan Meet the WSs Needs at All Costs No Matter How They Treat You" and that just isn't the case!! As you can see, I really do get it and don't expect BSs to just keep "plan A-ing" even when they're being treated like a doormat...BUT sadly not every BS starts off from a point of having self-esteem and self-worth.

Some BSs start from a point of being disrespected and degraded for so long that they just don't understand HOW to see their own value and demand respect all the time. For those folks (i.e., KMEJ) the goal is not to get them into Plan B because their spouse is giving them crumbs of affection...the goal is to stick with them until they value themselves. It's impossible to demand respect of your WS when you do not respect yourself!

Anyway, I think that's why you get so frustrated. Because you'd like BSs to come into this with a level of self-esteem and self-worth that you recognize. Sadly, sometimes that just isn't the case. If the M before the A was controlling or abusive or manipulative--or if the WS had an addiciton or a mental illness or personality disorder, then a lot of BS self-esteem can be eroded. The "Plans" kind of fly out the window in those instances.

That's why I suggested to you before that in some of those instances, you either choose to not reply -or- just pack in your 2x4's for as long as you can.


CJ

Back home and here is my reply to all. First, a little background. My WW is staying at her P's house w/son. After Dday, they agreed to let her stay there for 3 months as long as she straightened herself out, see MC, work towards reconciliation w/me. Well, #1 isn't going to work, you just can't "straighten someone out", she is seeing MC, although I doubt her motives. they might just be so she can say "see I've tried". #3 work towards reconciliation not happening as she continues C w/OM. Not at all a good plan on their part IMO.

What have I done about boundaries? Exposed to P's at each NC break. Kept records of her activities and what she has said (fog). Also refused to watch son so she could go out "with the girls on the town" (which was our problem IMO to begin with, single friends, different lifestyle, you get the picture). her P's and rest of family have refused to enable by sitting as well. This has effectively put the stop to the going out. Between everyone involved (her family) WW's time is accounted for so there is no chance of a "get together". But phone C persists.

Exposure and reexposure to her P's was a must to make the situation uncomfortable for WW. (Doesn't mind hurting me, but doesn't want her daddy finding out. Truly p!ssed about exposure. But aren't all WS? Tough cookies!) Also because she broke original agreement w/them. This living sitch is just enabling and I have told P's that. More on that later.

My plan A? Well I have plenty of self esteem, it is WW who has none. This is not a reflection on me or who i am, but on her. Meeting ENs though, the ones I wasn't meeting preA were affection, sexual (hell I was rejected enough), and she says I was too opinionated, if people didn't agree w/me they were wrong. I can see that one, I am that way. But I was opinionated from the day we met 10 years ago. She knew that going into M. I am working on that, knowing when to shut up. I will say, if someone wants to, they can pick apart every one of another person's faults...and that is what she is doing now. She actually told MC she had A because I didn't help w/laundry. (No I just mantained all yard work, all "manly" internal housework, dishes, much cleaning, and day to day care of child ranging from dressing and off to daycare to pickup, feeding supper, playing and bathing. Do I sound like the "traditional role" of mother?) Anyways, the EN like affection are not accepted now when I try to meet them. Financial needs, et al, still meeting those. No LBs now, though I did LB bad post DDay (furious, show me someone who wouldn't react to that news w/anger).

Plan A continues for me then for two reasons. First, to give her more time to see the good me. Distance away from the aftermath of Dday and the Lbs. Second, because I am just plain afraid to go plan B for fear of becoming a weekend dad to my son. I would give my life and go through hell for him. Hell is what i feel I am in, gotta do it. Plus, I still have lots of love for my W, not my WW and her acts. These are two different people now. She is fogged up, not thinking straight. I see it, and everyone close to her sees it and can't believe this is the same person.

Sitch w/her P's, just got back from there. Well, three months almost up and they are planning on sending her back home to (finally) deal with the problems in M. Right now she just hides out there, enabling, I know, but not much longer. This one takes the cake. MIL said to me tonight "Someone is going to need to have a "talk" with OM (single) and let him know once and for all he needs to butt out of your M. I kind of laughed and told her that isn't going to work. What does he care about our M. Told her I'd love to get a hold of him but that would make matters worse. I'd be the ugly one then. She said "Oh no, not you" (Implied FIL, WW's daddy) This should be good. If her pops wants to settle something with him, I will not stand in way, I don't care what kind of 2x4's I get here for that.

Long post, thanks for your patience. Any recommendations or corrections I should make in my approach here. I do want to say my plan A is not in "full effect" yet. I mean those needs, like affection and such, I have held back on so as not to smother WW and give that "phony" appearance. Kind of starting slow, and building up. Just like how the probs in M started slow then built up. then if I need to go planB, the full effect of it will be felt. Also, it is hard to plan A when the WS is not at home. BTW I am looking at a clean house freshly decorated for Xmas with an addition. A little mistletoe hanging in the archway. Get the picture. Hope WW saw it to when she stopped over. Life does go on, even when she is not here.

Kind of got off topic in last post. Enforcing boundaries in plan A. Well, I stated what I am doing in trying to enforce boundaries w/o going plan A. The only thing I can think of is if exposure to people that matter/have influence is only effective if those people then exert there influence. I wish her P's were more forward and not so enabling. I, however, cannot change their behavior much less WW. She can't even look straight at them she is so ashamed. Just stares at floor. Now, that does not prevent her from continuing contact though, at least to my knowledge. Reexposure is still fresh. I wonder if it will have a more cumulative effect, like waves eroding a shore line. No, I think that people of influence need to in turn also enforce a consequence.

<small>[ December 02, 2004, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: Bear04 ]</small>