Merry Christmas, tqt! Hope you are having a wonderful visit with your family. My thoughts are with you during this holiday season.

Spidey

Greetings, Spidey <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

What a coincidence... I FINALLY got connected (the parents' computer syndrome...), and lo and behold, there you are !

I also wanted to say Merry Christmas to you! And, a heartfelt thanks for being there.

Yes, I'm having a rough time... feel kinda lost, but I expected it, so...
So strange, so weird, so surreal....
WW just down the street, but haven't heard anything from her. Ouch.

tqt

ps. I'll give you the rest of the day off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Help! Tie me up... cut the phone cord.... stomp on my cell phone... steal my car keys...

I just want to call my wife and say

Merry Christmas, I'm thinking about you.

She knows I'm with my family... maybe the reason she hasn't called is shame..guilt... and thinking about what my family will say, etc ?!?

tqt, hello! Well, how did your day go yesterday? Did you contact? Did she respond? Did you drive by her, you two were so close! That must have been very strange and surreal.

I wanted to clarify my position on how you can support and influence. And this is just my opinion, so take that into consideration, as well.

One of the reasons that I got so much anger and resentment directed at me from my H in the beginning of the separation, is because he felt soooo guilty and ashamed on the inside, then he would see all of that reflected in my face when he would talk to me. I was so hurt and angry, as well, that it compounded his own very strong internal feelings of guilt. This was a vicious cycle for over two months for us.

Once I began working on me, and limited my contact with H, I was able to detach from him. I detached from the emotional chaos that was running his life at that time ~ the chaos that had been in his life for a while before he even moved out. His continued contact with the OW still hurt me, but I realized that I could do nothing about it.

My H now says that when I was able to detach from him, and create my own peace in myself and my life, that he found communicating with my much more tolerable, because he didn't see all the stuff he felt bad about, reflected back to him. He saw my peace and calm, and that in turn gave him hope. He thought, "Wow, if she can turn herself around, in these extreme circumstances, maybe 1)I can too, and 2)our M can be saved."

It was a slow process. Nothing happened overnight. And until we got through it, I didn't know if we would. Does that make sense? Your questioning and wondering is very natural, IMO. Is there a guarantee that any of this stuff will work? Heck no. BUT, by doing it this way, you will come to a place where if she doesn't come home, you will be OK as an individual, and you will know you did everything in your power to save your M and have no regrets in that area.

And you will be in a healthy place to begin a new relationship, if that is what you choose to do. BUT, that is WAAAAAY down the road. You are doing just fine hanging out with all us folks here at MB, K? K. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You must lead by example. If you want her to detach from the OM, you must detach from her. I found that I was attached to my H in an unhealthy way, when I tried to detach. I felt a desperate clingy neediness that was just not right! I don't want to feel that way about my spouse! I want us to WANT to spend time with each OTHER.

If you want her to begin dealing with her problems in a healthy way, you must show her by your own actions how she can go about doing that.

If you want her to do some real introspection and get honest with herself, she must see you doing that first, with yourself.

Don't get me wrong, you seem to be a very balanced, healthy individual. BUT, unless you are the Dali Lama, you have work to do on yourself. I have come SO FAR since my D-day, almost a year ago, and I STILL have a lifetime of work to do. I arrive at certain destinations now and then, but I must always pull out again, back on my journey.

Does this make it more clear on how you can support and influence without contacting her? She will contact you, IMO. See, all this stuff works even better when they come to you. When their mind is open to you, then their heart opens to you again. Slowly, that wall that has grown between you two, can begin to get holes in it and begin to crumble. And that window of intimacy that was created between her and OM will begin to close and be sealed over.

That is how the A started, and it is how it can end. It is a process, and one you must be committed to seeing through. Most likely, she will not just come back home to you, and forget OM, at this point. But I have seen it hundreds of times on these boards, tqt. I have seen the A's end, the partners defog, and M's be rebuilt better and stronger than ever.

And you have lots of friends here who are willing to walk that path with you. Keep posting, keep questioning, keep venting. Work on you, detach from her, and I really think you will get her attention. This entire A business looks a LOT different from this side of it. I have seen the patterns, I have seen human nature. It is shockingly amazing how similar everyone's sitch is, whether the spouse moves out or not, whether the A continues or stops right away.

There is a GREAT thread to read on SYMC by Penny. I thought of you while reading it yesterday. I am going to attempt to post the link here. I've only done it a couple times.

web page

We'll see if that one works. I'm always afraid I'll lose my post when I do that! And since we are both so incredibly thorough, that's a LOT of typing! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hope you had a Merry Christmas. I did. Remember what a difference a year can make. Please keep your hope.

Spidey

Spidey... you're amazing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Wonderful words of wisdom... which I've read 3 times just now, and will read 3+ more times later.

I just arrived back home. Had no contact with WW at all --- until, 11:15 this morning she tried calling my cell phone. I was on the road, and talking to a friend when WW tried to call. She didn't leave a msg.

Today is her birthday!!

I feel so bad not calling her on Xmas day, and the thought of not saying "Happy Birthday" to my wife... well, it sucks.

I've decided I will call her sometime this afternoon or this evening. Short and sweet...

Who knows -- maybe she had a rough day yesterday?? She was probably very surprised not to hear from me.

Will let you know what happens!

Hi tqt,

I've been catching up on your sitch, it sounds like your in a better place from when I last posted to you. Good on ya! Stay strong and it sounds like she'll be the one turning towards you instead of running. I'll probably be heading into a seperated Plan B in Jan, and I hope my WW tries to contact me!! Although I don't need her to.

Good luck, Native

Hi there, Native. Thanks for posting on this long-winded, er, thorough, thread. Took some reading, eh?!

tqt, how is everything today? Did you end up communicating with your WW yesterday? I was thinking, maybe she was calling you about receiving the sweater? Or had she not gotten that yet?

Are you home yet? Or do you stay with your family through the New Year?

Hang in there. You can do this. Keep posting. I love your Rudolph thread. Great idea, taping a red light to their nose! OR, perhaps you could "lease" him for a night, and "Rudolph with your nose so bright, won't you guide my WS home tonight."

I could go on and on revising that song, but I'll just let it go at that. I have SO MUCH STUFF to organize and put away over the next few days. H and I were just LAZY this weekend. We sat, we played, we reclined, we sprawled out, we slept, we rested, we napped, we dozed, we ate more and more. Ugh. I'm wondering if I can get on any pants with a wasteband! That isn't elastic! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Spidey

I have been married 4yrs. and I am in the process of seperating from my husband. He's the one leaving. I am so confused right now. The lines of communication are open but I feel he is being so close minded about our future right now. He says he loves me but just can't live with me. He refuses to go to counseling. I need some suggestions about how to get through this.

TMason, first off, welcome to Marriage Builders. This is a place of support for those of us who want to save or improve our marriages. You are posting on the Infidelity Board, so we here are also in various stages of dealing with the infidelity that has crept into our marriages.

Could you give us a little background on yourself? Do you know there is an A, either EA or PA? Do you know the acronyms we use here? Do you have any children? Are you currently living in the US? How long have you known your H? Is this the first A?

Give us all the details you can. Sorry to see you are here, but you are in a great place to help you get through this.

Spidey

<small>[ December 27, 2004, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: Spider Slayer ]</small>

Spidey you are so awesome. I read your posts to tqt as they would apply to me. What you have to offer is so right on. I think I am a little further than tqt, and everything you have said has really come to light. I am on the up side of the roller coaster, and one thing I have learned is that it will go down. I am gaining the tools to ride the ride, and not lose my lunch doing it.

You give us all hope. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Thanks

TQT

So she called you? I see nothing wrong with returning the call and saying "Whats up"? If she says "Nothing", then say "OK, just checking in" and be done. The worse thing that could happen is that you have a conversation!!!! Don't talk about the gym, don't talk about the OM. Ask her how she is doing? Tell her you miss her. Then say goodbye. Then let her call you again. It isn't pursueing but it does let her know that you still care about her.

Native, Waiting... thanks.

Spidey, you're gonna kill me.


Let me get right to the point. This is not normal dating behavior.


Yesterday...

Decided I'd try to call WW to say Happy Birthday. By the time I worked up the nerve, it was early evening. Turns out she was at the family's regularly-scheduled Christmas-dinner-out-thingee, and I finally reached MIL at home at 10:30PM. MIL said that WW,BIL,SIL were still out; they stopped at the local watering hole on the way back from dinner. I didn't give MIL any instructions to have WW call me when she got home, but within 30 minutes, WW called me, apparently as soon as she got in and heard that I called.

Here's how the conversation went: couple minutes of chit-chat (I could tell WW had definitely been doing a fair amount of birthday celebrating...), lots of curiousity/questions about what I've been up to, Xmas activities, etc.
Then she had one of those charming, spontaneous meltdowns that lasted the better part of an HOUR. I listened, mostly, and interjected some pseudo-reverse babble in between her rants.

She was brutal. Vicious. Scathing. Hateful. Venomous.

Not a nice girl.

Rewriting more history, and spouting off about every little negative thing about our marriage that she could think of.

She kept losing her cell phone connection, and kept calling back, so I guess that gave her the time to calm down.

I'm not sure why I allowed myself to endure it -- I think in part because she was so off-the-wall that it was almost entertaining, and in part because I was curious about what would come out of her mouth, ie. maybe some useful information. And in a pathetic kind of way, it was almost nice to be talking with her...
I did not feel like a doormat. And I didn't argue with her much at all. I was calm, didn't raise my voice, never waivered... hey I can get beat up with the best of 'em!

I think underneath it all she's still having a really hard time seeing me move onward and upward, and still justifying/rationalizing the whole mess. And I'm still voting for depression as a key ingredient.

And I got the impression -- more like surmised from some of the things she said and how she said them -- that she was very hurt when I didn't call her Xmas day, and all day on her birthday (up to that point).


So here's the good part......

I decided to return her venom with "nice" stuff. And finally I said... "We love each other and we belong together."

She hung up.


This morning...

She called and left me a message: "I just want to apologize for being a ***** last night. Guess I was just in a *****y mood. Wanted to apologize in person, but you're not answering your cell phone, so I'll have to leave you a message."
She sounded embarrassed and ashamed.

I was NOT going to call her back. But, last night's conversation left me in "It's Over" mode (for a lot of reasons). And because of that, I decided I didn't care about Plan A, B, or Z anymore, and said "WTH" to myself... and I called her.


tqt: "Do you remember the last thing I said to you last night when you hung up on me?"

WW: "No."

tqt: "You don't remember?"

WW: "No. I think I had too much to drink... can you tell me again?"

tqt: "I said we love each other, and we should be together."

(silence)

tqt: "And...to that end... why don't we get all this crap out on the table, and get our act together."

(silence)

tqt: "...because of what I just said."

WW: "yeah" (ie. she knew what I was saying)

(silence)

tqt: "why don't you think about it... drive carefully, ok?"

(silence)

WW: "yeah. OK."

tqt: "bye."


Sure sounded to me like she wants to come home.
I'm exhausted...... Go ahead, hit me with the 2x4's... I won't even feel it...

No 2x4 from me. You have her thinking. She has to deal with her guilt on her own, I think she knows that you are not going to help her on that one. I think you did what was in your heart and she is feeling it.

Her behavior is not always rational, but if killing it with kindness is working then who am I or anyone else on this forum to tell you not to do it.

As for know I would give her a few days. She will call you I have no doubt. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

tqt,

She is thinking... thinking about you moving on being a better person. And she is getting upset that this new improved tqt didn't call her and wish her happy birthday. She seemed hurt by it??? that means she does care.

It sounds like you have some hope shining through, that's great man. I'm hoping for you.

Native

Why the heck would I waste a perfectly good 2x4 if you won't even feel it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> jk. No 2x4 here.

tqt, my H and I had plenty of those types of conversations before he came home. There is a lot of stuff between you two right now. It must be cleared, one way or the other, before you two can move forward.

Actually, the fact that she can still get that ANGRY at you, even if for no reason that any of us can see, is good, IMO. Remember, the opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference. If she talked to you, and YOU got upset, and she just calmly told you that she was sorry you still felt that way, but she didn't, please let her go, I would be worried.

It could very well be that she is irritated that you detaching from her, is causing her feelings to turn around, regarding you. She probably had convinced herself that she had made the right decision, because she didn't love you anymore, blah blah blah. Now you have her attention, she is remembering some good stuff, perhaps missing you. And DARNET she has to remind YOU and HERSELF and everyone else who can hear her, that she is SURE of her decision, and she is going to give you all the EVIDENCE to prove her point.

See, what H and I learned in MC, is that we are in a FEELINGS-based relationship. Logic has no purchase in this relationship. We all feel the way we feel, and we don't have to prove it with evidence. My H and I were BIG evidence users. We justified our feelings with logic and evidence, we tried to prove the other wrong with logic and evidence.

We both learned, after 8 months of MC, that arguing someone's feelings with them actually causes those feelings to cement in place. I think it is natural human nature. However, to have those same feelings acknowledged, can often SHIFT those same feelings.

For instance. Christmas day, my friend got an MP3 player from her father. That is also what I got her. I was very upset about it, for many reasons that I will not go into here. My H didn't get it. He said, "It's not a big deal." And proceeded to tell me why I shouldn't feel the way I did. Which of course irritated me even more. Finally, I figured out we were in a no-good communication pattern, and said, "I don't have a good reason for feeling the way I do, I just feel that way! Stop arguing my feelings!"

H said, "You're right. I get that you are upset. Let's talk about why you are upset." And he gave me a hug. All of a sudden, most of my upsetness was gone. *POOF* Just because he acknowledged my feelings. And once he acknowledged my feelings, I understood his point of view, as well. My defenses were down, and we were in positive communication.

tqt, since you are not in Plan B, complete with a letter and intermediaries, I agree with the others here. If she calls you and leaves a message, or you see her on the caller ID (and you are feeling stable and calm, of course!), I think you should call her back. Put it on her. "I saw you called/I got your message, what's up?" Pleasant, supportive, you are there for her. BUT, you are not chasing after her.

GREAT job holding your space of support and love on that phone call, BTW. If I were you, I would begin asking her to do some professional marriage coaching with Penny Tupy. Instead of just asking her back home. Perhaps if her mind is open on a phone call, just ask her if she would be interesting in exploring learning better communication techniques.

Like I said earlier, you BOTH have a LOT of stuff between you that needs to be cleared out, whether you stay together or not, IMO. Neither of you wants to be hauling around this baggage for the next years, together or with new partners. It goes so much faster and smoother with guidance.

Do you know if she has gotten the sweater yet? Did you learn anything interesting or new from her ranting session on the phone the other night? Did her mother give you any information?

Aren't I nosy!

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She has to deal with her guilt on her own, I think she knows that you are not going to help her on that one. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WWH...yep, the "G" word. I don't know how she'll be able to deal with her guilt without IC. And I suppose the wrong C could help screw things up even more. I don't see her getting help, though.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">getting upset that this new improved tqt didn't call her and wish her happy birthday.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks Native.
Particularly on her birthday, I was REALLY surprised that she tried to call me first.
In last night's tantrum, I asked her why she tried to call me earlier -- she got quiet for a second, and said "oh, that was just a mistake, I meant to call someone else." Ha! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">tqt, since you are not in Plan B, complete with a letter and intermediaries, I agree with the others here. If she calls you and leaves a message, or you see her on the caller ID (and you are feeling stable and calm, of course!), I think you should call her back. Put it on her. "I saw you called/I got your message, what's up?" Pleasant, supportive, you are there for her. BUT, you are not chasing after her.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Agreed, Spidey. It seems like I've been playing it that way for the most part, or no? Maybe I'm not, but don't recognize it?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I were you, I would begin asking her to do some professional marriage coaching with Penny Tupy. Instead of just asking her back home. Perhaps if her mind is open on a phone call, just ask her if she would be interesting in exploring learning better communication techniques.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well... during last night's rage, I DID (somewhat ambiguously, by design) ask if she'd "consider talking with someone." She said "you mean both of us? No way!" Can't remember how many expletives were intermingled in her response...

For her to agree to any kind of marriage coaching/counseling/whatever, she would in effect be saying "ok, I'm thinking that maybe we can work things out." Wouldn't she? She's not that close yet... (please excuse that presumptuous "yet" word...)



</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Like I said earlier, you BOTH have a LOT of stuff between you that needs to be cleared out, whether you stay together or not, IMO. Neither of you wants to be hauling around this baggage for the next years, together or with new partners. It goes so much faster and smoother with guidance. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She wins the prize for "Most Stuff To Be Cleared Out" -- by a long shot. I'm a person who doesn't have as much of a problem dumping my baggage and moving on. Does that mean I don't have any? No, of course not. WW and I have talked about The Baggage Thing quite a few times (initiated by me, of course). The whole subject threatens her. Conflict avoidance, and that nagging little thing about not facing her own issues. Anyway, she's only compounded her baggage exponentially by the way she's handled everything for the last 10 months. Spidey, I agree with you 100%. I don't think she's figured out yet that if we, as two individuals, play this the wrong way, no matter what the outcome, we will both be carrying this around for the rest of our lives. It's safe to say that she'll have plenty more to carry around than I will. Ahh, but who's counting, eh?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you know if she has gotten the sweater yet? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sure she got it, and to be honest, I can't remember if she said anything about it last night or not. She didn't dwell on it, put it that way. She had too many other more important things to b!tch about!


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did you learn anything interesting or new from her ranting session on the phone the other night? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I did learn something new AND interesting.
Until last night, I never knew it was possible to form a complete, grammatically correct sentence using nothing but expletives.

Other than that... I asked her what she was up to on New Year's Eve.
She said "Maybe going out to dinner." (with OM; it was obvious) "Maybe. Or maybe I'll just stay at home all by myself and do nothing!"

She also, at one of the peaks of her colorful ranting performance, asked if I was, ummm... sleeping with somebody. But she used a different word for "sleeping." She asked the same question about three times in a row, rapid-fire... It was quite a show... And I ignored the question(s).
The fact that she has the nerve to ask me that is almost laughable. Oh, WTH... it IS laughable <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did her mother give you any information? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">None that I picked up on, anyway. I think she was very tired and probably not in the mood to talk at that point.
MIL/BIL left for Fla this morning, so SIL is now home alone -- I think I'm going to call her this evening to see how the weekend went, WW-wise. SIL is on my team <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Spidey... thanks.
Sounds like you had a great Xmas... I'm so happy for you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes, I did learn something new AND interesting.
Until last night, I never knew it was possible to form a complete, grammatically correct sentence using nothing but expletives. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ROTFL

Very funny, bad sad that you have to listen to her rant like that. I like your perspective though.

I agree that if WW is getting angry with you that means on some level she cares about your input and you.

Stay strong tqt, I'm rooting for you.

Native

tqt, I think you are doing great. Keeping the sense of humor in the midst of all this is key. I remember after one very loud argument, the last time H told me he wanted D at the sushi restaraunt, we came back home to have it out (boys were at school). I forgot my front window was open, and we were right in front of it. Sure enough, someone called the cops. *sigh* All our years, NEVER had domestic disturbance. Even when my H was in the Army, where it is so commonplace.

Anyway, after the cops left, H and I looked at each other and said, "Well, that was embarassing." And we both chuckled. I think again that showed him, without me saying a thing to him to "prove" it, that we should be together. I honestly think if the police had been called on him and the OW, she would have freaked out with "how it made her look." She is so prissy.

Actually, before this whole thing happened in my life, I used to care a LOT, TOO MUCH, about what other people thought of me. To the point that I would do certain things JUST to influence people to see me in one certain way! Everything I did was WAAAY over the top. Then after this whole thing happened, I realized that I only care what those closest to me think.

What is so funny to me is that since that day the cops came, they have come 2 more times for different reasons! Once for my dog barking when we were out of town, but my housesitter took care of it (but the actual cops were here, NOT animal control!), and once because my H accidentally dialed 911 while making a phone call before work (still not sure what happened exactly), so 5 minutes later they were pounding on my door. They were like, "Ma'am, are you here alone?" and I was like, "I THOUGHT I was, but I didn't call you guys!"

So now my neighbors probably think we are cookey, but I don't care. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> For her to agree to any kind of marriage coaching/counseling/whatever, she would in effect be saying "ok, I'm thinking that maybe we can work things out." Wouldn't she? She's not that close yet... (please excuse that presumptuous "yet" word...) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe, maybe not. My H began counseling with me to make the D go smoother. We started counseling in mid-February (only 3 sessions with the first lady), then switched to H's IC (who became our MC after H walked out on 3rd session with first MC), and it wasn't until the very end of March that H decided to actually try and work on the M. If nothing else, perhaps you can get her to contact Penny Tupy for IC, or just to post on the Reclamation Board on SYMC. If she can read about other women's journeys, perhaps she will find she is in a different place than she thought she was.

I recommended this same action to a friend of mine who is a WW that has moved out and living with OM. I don't know if she followed it or not, as that is a private forum, and if she is Penny's client she can't tell me, BUT, her and her BH are now on a week long trip together to try and get her through the withdrawals enough to go back to work (her boss is OM <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ).

Perhaps by reading others' journey, she realized she didn't really want to be with OM for sure. I don't know. That could be a place to start. Maybe you could rely on the friend part of your relationship. "WW, I want to be your friend, if nothing else, for the rest of my life. I will always love you, regardless of how you feel about me. Counseling (my H called it "group" counseling in the very beginning ~ cracked me up ~ pretty small group, ONE COUPLE!) can guide you through this pain, so you two as a couple can come out the other side ready to move forward in your lives.

Perhaps just give her the resources to investigate on her own. Penny has been WW, BW, and OW!!! She's visited all 3 sides of the triangle, AND she is a woman. After some solo sessions, she might agree to "group" sessions with the two of you. You just never know, tqt.

I NEVER thought my H would find an IC he liked. He thought counselors were crap. But I think every person has that Rock Bottom. Every person has that time in their life when they'd not normally do something, but all of a sudden it seems a better alternative than what they are living at the time. That is what a miracle is, isn't it? Something just happening, right in front of your eyes, that you thought you would never see happen??? It happened to me in my life with my H, and it can happen with your WW in your life.

I do think it is interesting that your WW asked you so many times, almost in an upset way, if you were sleeping with anyone. Mostly, what I hear (and what my H said) is that the WS encourages the BS to gratify themselves with SF because it would help to ease their guilt about what they themselves have done.

tqt, I see a LOT of hope in your situation. I know you think that not having kids could put you at a disadvantage, but, I can also see that a different way. While kids are a type of glue, sometimes that can become a couple's whole focus, perhaps the only thing they have in common. Take out the kids, and would there be enough to stand on its own???

But with you two, you both willingly chose, with no "glue" besides what the two of you offered each other, to be together for a long time. I see a LOT of hope in that. And I see a lot of hope in the things she chooses to say to/yell at you.

Hang in there! I think you are doing FANtastic!

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If nothing else, perhaps you can get her to contact Penny Tupy for IC, or just to post on the Reclamation Board on SYMC. If she can read about other women's journeys, perhaps she will find she is in a different place than she thought she was.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Spidey, I just can't conjure up any optimism in this area. I'm not exactly sure why.
WW was never much of a "self-help" person.
I'm afraid she'd see any nudges from me in the direction of Penny's site, or anything of that nature, to be "pressure" and control. Maybe I'm thinking wrong (I am having a down day), but I can VERY clearly envision her reacting to the slightest bit of pressure -- especially if my timing and words are off by so much as a hair -- with one of her "I know I made the right decision" proclamations. Her walls would go up in an instant. Defense. Self-preservation.

Remember she did say the other night, re: talking to someone: "you mean together? No way!"

Having said all that... if you'll recall, I've also asked her 2 or 3 times if she's considered "talking with someone to help her sort things out" and she replied "yes, I've thought about it." But it's been a month, I think, since I last broached that whole subject.

Ok, so I'm rambling along aimlessly here... and that's how I feel today...
I feel impatient -- big time -- I guess because of the perhaps-positive event/contact yesterday morning, and now I have to sit back and wait. For God knows how long...


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps just give her the resources to investigate on her own.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess I can see her, given a "map" to follow, being curious enough to check something out. But if the slant (of the resource(s)) is on infidelity and all the happy stuff that goes along with it, I can see her being frightened away from it -- again, that would be facing her issues -- and/or angered by my suggestion.

We'll get nowhere until she deals with some things, I know that.

I just can't "feel out" a way to help her get there. A safe way. Life would be so much easier if we'd all act like adults, or at least pretended to....


So, Spidey... as you can tell, I'm confused right now. Confused about what my next step should be.
On the one hand, I HATE just sitting here. On the other hand, she's so volatile -- and what's going thru her mind is such a mystery -- I'm afraid to take ANY step not knowing in which direction it'll send her. I know this isn't a science, and there are no guarantees.
I'm feeling risk-averse, but I'm not sure why -- I certainly didn't feel that way yesterday.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do think it is interesting that your WW asked you so many times, almost in an upset way, if you were sleeping with anyone. Mostly, what I hear (and what my H said) is that the WS encourages the BS to gratify themselves with SF because it would help to ease their guilt about what they themselves have done. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is interesting.
Maybe in that convoluted way (sort of what you said) she wanted to hear me say "Yes, I AM!"
Unfortunately for the Getting-Incredibly-Desperate, Involuntary-Celibacy-Was-NOT-In-My-Life's-Plan, SF-Deprived ME, I'd be lying.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And I see a lot of hope in the things she chooses to say to/yell at you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep...I'm hoping she yells at me some more, too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanks Spidey (and everyone else who's chimed in here)... your help, support, encouragement and patience are SOOOOO much appreciated.

Of course you are welcome, tqt. I understand about not knowing how to approach her about getting some help for her. Even if you genuinely just wanted it for her own well being, nothing to do with "saving" the M, you are right - you would probably receive mucho defensiveness.

Luckily, the last friend I helped to that end was MY friend, so she took it from me. If given the same info from her BH, she probably would have flushed it.

Well, we'll just keep hanging onto this rollercoaster ride with you, and see where we end up. You are doing a great job, IMO. And know that you are not on this journey alone.

Spidey