As I understand you, your marriage has no problems ... enjoy your marriage.

Pep

Okay, how do we convince you radical honesty works?

Have you read thru the years of posts on this board, on people that told their spouses...and saved their marriages? Have you read the Harley principles, which have been shown to work most of the time and are better than any out there?

Have you read God's word? When in life is dishonesty going to get you anywhere? God said that He will not be mocked.

Character is doing the right thing, even if no one is looking. You dont tell her because you are scared of her finding out. You do it because it is the right thing to do.

You know, everyone, including my wife, thought that I would be the guy who would jsut kick her out if I found out she had an affair. That's what happened in my dating life. If I even thought there was another guy...then out the girl would go.

But a funny thing happened (not funny Ha-Ha...). When I found out what she did, did I kick her out? No. Everyone was wrong about my response. Including me.

Most spouses that receive this word of betrayal try to mend their marriages...ESPECIALLY if they hear it from the WS. And the WS is willingto do the things to repent and make a new commitment.

But, believe me...she will know. She already knows. How do I know that? Because a BS feels it. You arent a BS, so you dont know. But other BSs can chime in here. I "knew" well before I knew. And that "knowing" will rot your marriage. It is already dead. Your wife will begin to smell that. Eventually, she wont want anything to do with it, and she wont know why. but it is because it is dead, and nobody told her.

In His arms.

<small>[ January 10, 2005, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

<small>[ January 10, 2005, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: redhat ]</small>

Don't take my word for it. Here is what Dr. Willard Harley says on this website:
Policy of Radical Honesty

Four Rules for a Successful Marriage

You can have a better, more fullfilling marriage - even after telling your wife what you did...by following the plan with the principals outlined on this website and in his books. Telling your wife may not be the end of your marriage. You can get phone counselling with Steve Harley (SH) (Dr.Willard Harley's son) to find out the best way to handle this and he can help you and your wife recover and have a better marriage than pre-A. You don't seem to want to take our words for it, maybe you'll listen to him..

I would also like to suggest that you and your wife could attend one of the Marriage Builder's Weekends together.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mindsink:
<strong>I am very confused right now. I'm living in a fantasy world, and I don't seem to want to wake up to reality.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Obviously.......

And when you're ready to deal with reality, as you can see, there will be an outpouring of help and support.

I do have one small statement, either pretty much everyone whose responded to you and Dr Harley are all CRAZY or you are thinking illogically, which one do you think it is?

<strong> A little help for you...
There are no early stages. You have strayed.</strong>

I beg to differ. There ARE stages. If there wasn't, I wouldn't have gotten over her so easily and quickly.

<strong>
How you gonna do that without telling her? Be a better husband? How is that possible if she doesnt even know who you are?</strong>

Read what I write more carefully before responding. I said there are problems in my marriage that have nothing to do with this incident. She knows WHO I AM. She doesn't know WHAT I DID. Big difference buddy-boy.

<strong>Sorry my man. The dagger was Annie. And that marriage is already dead.</strong>

Whatever you say professor.

<strong>First off, no one wants you to end that marriage...it has already ended. You need to see that. Second, if it is "honest, noble and honorable," then you are saying that you are going to continue being dishonest, immoral (opposite of noble), and having no honor? Is that what you are saying? Your wife does not deserve a man that would be these things. Everyone makes mistakes. The real man understands that the honorable thing to do is to stand up and be counted...not to hide.</strong>

Marriage has ended? That's funny. My wife is coming home to me soon, and I haven't been served any divorce papers yet.

Also, I've done many honorable and noble things in my life. A man is not defined by one action but the collection of all of his actions.

<strong>Good analogy...but you got it wrong. The basis of a marriage (the foundation) is commitment. Your marriage's foundation is built on sand because your commitment level to it has been as shakey as sand. So, you want to keep building on sand? You want your wife to keep believing in something that is just fantasy? Because, for her to believe that you are this guy who has committed to her for life and is faithful, is just that...mere fantasy!!</strong>

Naaa. My analogy is perfectly fine. Maybe YOUR marriage is founded on commitment. Mine is founded on love.

<strong>
Okay Mindsink. Now that I have been hammering you a little here, let me let you in on a little secret. We want your marriage to succeed.</strong>

How can it? You said it's dead already!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<strong>Ever see that movie "Weekend at Bernies?" Bernie was dead, but they dressed him up and carried him around for the weekend. Everyone kept thinking Bernie was alive, but if they had looked closer, they would have seen something wasnt right. Eventually, your wife will see something isnt right.</strong>

No, she won't. Because nothing will be wrong. I made one mistake. It's not a mistake that will carry with me forever. It's in the past, and I won't have to deal with again, ever.

<strong>You chose to do it your way...and I will bet everything that it wont turn out like you had hoped. These people here want to help you. But, in order to help you, you have to be willing to do what is expected. If not, then maybe MB isnt for you. Maybe you need to go elsewhere, where someone can tell you what you want to hear.</strong>

What I WANT to hear is an analysis of why I did what I did, and what I can do to make sure I don't do it in the future.

<strong>You see, many people say "I dont know what to do." But that is the WRONG answer. It may be a TRUE answer, but it is still the WRONG answer. Why? Because, we know what GOD wants us to do. And God is always right. So, even though we dont know what we want to do, we know what He wants us to do...and we should do it.</strong>

Please. Let's leave religion out of this. "we know what he wants us to do and we should do it?" You sound like a mindless slave.

Pep, you are right. This guy has the perfect marriage. My mistake.

In His arms.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mortarman:
<strong>

But, believe me...she will know. She already knows. How do I know that? Because a BS feels it. You arent a BS, so you dont know. But other BSs can chime in here. I "knew" well before I knew. And that "knowing" will rot your marriage. It is already dead. Your wife will begin to smell that. Eventually, she wont want anything to do with it, and she wont know why. but it is because it is dead, and nobody told her.

In His arms. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What's a "BS"?

BS = Betrayed Spouse.

One more thing from Dr. Harley, since you asked...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Should an affair be revealed?

I have been letting you in on some clues to infidelity when a spouse is unwilling to be truthful. But there are a few, of course, who are honest enough to tell their spouses about an affair without being confronted. Guilt sometimes sets in right after the first sexual encounter, and it continues to build as one lie is added to another. Depression follows guilt and it's not unusual for a wayward spouse to even consider suicide as a way to escape the nightmare he or she has created. As an act of desperation, honesty is sometimes seized as a last resort, often in an effort to relieve the feelings of guilt.

From my perspective, honesty is part of the solution to infidelity, and so I'll take honesty for whatever reason, even if it's to relieve a feeling of guilt and depression. The revelation of an affair is very hard on an unsuspecting spouse, of course, but at the same time, it's the first step toward marital reconciliation.

Most unfaithful spouses know that their affair is one of the most heartless acts they could ever inflict on their spouse. So one of their reasons to be dishonest is to protect their spouse from emotional pain. "Why add insult to injury," they reason. "What I did was wrong, but why put my spouse through needless pain by revealing this thoughtless act?" As is the case with bank robbers and murderers, unfaithful spouses don't think they will ever be discovered, and so they don't expect their unfaithfulness to hurt their spouse.

But I am one of the very few that advocate the revelation of affairs at all costs, even when the wayward spouse has no feelings of guilt or depression to overcome. I believe that honesty is so essential to the success of marriage, that hiding past infidelity makes a marriage dishonest, preventing emotional closeness and intimacy.

It isn't honesty that causes the pain, it's the affair. Honesty is simply revealing truth to the victim. Those who advocate dishonesty regarding infidelity assume that the truth will cause such irreparable harm, that it's in the best interest of a victimized spouse to go through life with the illusion of fidelity.

It's patronizing to think that a spouse cannot bear to hear the truth. Anyone who assumes that their spouse cannot handle truth is being incredibly disrespectful, manipulative and in the final analysis, dangerous. How little you must think of your spouse when you try to protect him or her from the truth.

It's not only patronizing, but it's also false to assume that your spouse cannot bear to hear the truth. Illusions do not make us happy, they cause us to wander through life, bumping into barriers that are invisible to us because of the illusion that is created. Truth, on the other hand, reveals those barriers, and sheds light on them so that we can see well enough to overcome them. The unsuspecting spouse of an unfaithful husband or wife wonders why their marriage is not more fulfilling and more intimate. Knowledge of an affair would make it clear why all efforts have failed.

After revealing an affair, your spouse will no longer trust you. But lack of trust does not ruin a marriage, it's the lack of care and protection that ruins marriages. Your spouse should not trust you, and the sooner your spouse realizes it, the better.

The Policy of Radical Honesty is one of two rules you must follow to protect your spouse from your self-centered behavior, which includes affairs. The other rule is the Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse). If you were to be completely honest with you spouse, and you were to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement, an affair would be impossible, unless for some reason your spouse wanted you to have one.

If you knew that your affair would be discovered -- that right after having sex with your co-worker, your spouse were to find out about it -- you would probably not go through with it. And if you were honest enough with your spouse so that YOU would be the one to tell him or her what you did, your honesty would be a huge reason to avoid any affair.

How the victimized spouse should respond to the revelation of an affair is a subject of a later column. I do not have the space to treat it here. But a spouse is twice victimized when he or she is lied to about an affair. Truth is far easier to handle than lies.

Some affairs, those like the husbands of R.J. and M.S., are discovered by their spouses. But as R.J. and M.S. have seen, knowing about an affair is only the first step toward recovery.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Mindsink......
Seriously....you can't go on without telling your wife and getting into some counseling. Think about your wife...please! Since this was a prostitute....you could have a disease and you will give it to your wife (the innocent one).
You have to come clean!!!!!
You can't have a good marriage if it's based on lies!!

That blurb from the Doctor sounds good and all...

...but...

I just can't do it.

What about the policy of "radical honesty...starting now"? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Which means you have new paint over old rot.

In His arms.

Ok, I know this is probably futile because from what I've read all you want to hear is that this choice you made will have no effect at all on your marriage and everything will be hunky dory from here on out.

All I can think of is the analogy of the one bad apple. You know how if you have a bowl of fruit and one piece has a bruise in a short amount of time the whole bowl will be unfit to eat. This action you have choosen has repercussions. And I say this out of experience. It will not just be swept under the rug like you want it to be even if she never finds out. YOU will know about it. When things get unsteady between you and your wife again the temptation of straying will be there again because you 'got away with it before'. It will *always* be there hiding in the background poisoning the intimacy you have with her.

The only way you can truly know the consequences of your actions is to tell her and let her make her own choice about staying or leaving. Not telling her is cowardly.

I know every situation has nuances that are unique but for the most part they follow the same old script that all these good people have been trying to tell you about. For me, my husband was unfaithful several times, some with prostitutes, and here I am still married to the guy. We are working past it and trying to make the new marriage we have better.

I do hope that you find the courage to do what is right even though it will be painful.

VL/Jodi

Oh, and the word isnt "cant." It is "wont." Because you can do it. I have seen way to many honorable and courageous FWSs on here do exactly that! And they deserve all of our respect. You will to, when you learn that doing the right thing is ALWAYS the only way to go.

On the religion issue you eluded to...like I have said many times...that is between you and Him. All I am required to do is pass on the message. At least you cant look Him in the face one day and say "I didnt know."

In His arms.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mindsink:
<strong> I look at it like this...marriage is like a house...There's a foundation, and you build upon it. By telling my wife, I'm basically burning my house down, and ripping out the foundation, for the very very minute chance that I can build a new foundation and start over. Why? Because I mistakenly painted one of the rooms red instead of blue. Well, I'm just gonna paint over it.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You think you have your W convinced that your M is built of brick and mortar when in fact it's built of straw. Your daily deceitfulness will bring your house (M) down around you. It's only a matter of time.

You would rather cover up your weaknesses than face them because you are afraid of the consequences. You cannot validate your choice to cover-up as avoiding stupidity.

Why are you afraid of losing a M that you don't respect and value in the first place. Certainly, if you placed any value on your M, you would not have gone looking for sex on a whim simply because you were "horny".

That implies that you have probably done this before and will more than likely do it again. All the while keeping the attitude of "what W doesn't know won't hurt her."

Can you imagine if your W carried that same attitude towards you? You came here for marriage building advice. You don't like the answers. You cheat on your W...what did you expect the answers to be? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by VeteranLurker:
<strong> Ok, I know this is probably futile because from what I've read all you want to hear is that this choice you made will have no effect at all on your marriage and everything will be hunky dory from here on out.

All I can think of is the analogy of the one bad apple. You know how if you have a bowl of fruit and one piece has a bruise in a short amount of time the whole bowl will be unfit to eat. This action you have choosen has repercussions. And I say this out of experience. It will not just be swept under the rug like you want it to be even if she never finds out. YOU will know about it. When things get unsteady between you and your wife again the temptation of straying will be there again because you 'got away with it before'. It will *always* be there hiding in the background poisoning the intimacy you have with her.

The only way you can truly know the consequences of your actions is to tell her and let her make her own choice about staying or leaving. Not telling her is cowardly.

I know every situation has nuances that are unique but for the most part they follow the same old script that all these good people have been trying to tell you about. For me, my husband was unfaithful several times, some with prostitutes, and here I am still married to the guy. We are working past it and trying to make the new marriage we have better.

I do hope that you find the courage to do what is right even though it will be painful.

VL/Jodi </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe you're right about it always being there. Only time will tell. Let me ask you, WHY did you decide to stay married?

Look people, it comes down to this:

If I tell her...

1.) It is a CERTAINTY that our relationship will be over. Nevermind the marriage. I don't want that. If my wife cheated on me, I'd want to work it out. My wife is not as rational as me. She end it right there.

2.) It will ruin her life. She will spend the rest of her life wondering why she wasted all of her prime years on me.

3.) I risk possible injury or death upon myself. My wife is a dangerous person, and who knows what she'll do to me.

4.) The shame on me, my family, and her family will be unbearable.

As to why you did it...when you get your copy of Surviving an Affair it may help to enlighten you about that.

There are other books that will also help you to understand the why's.....Torn Asunder, by Dave Carder.

Here is a quote from the book 'Men Who Can't Be Faithful', by Carol Botwin, this part was addressed to the wife:

"A person who will not reveal himself cannot change. He hides emotionally, not only from your, but from himself. the only way to root out the cause of his infidelity is for him to try to be open and honest and in this way help you both to understand him more. Communication, in the sense in which I am using it, means that he is willing to talk about personal thinks: his emotions, his hopes, his triumphs, and disappointments, his expectations, fears, and vulnerabilities. It means being willing to talk about paianful issues. It also means exploring with you how he may, as a man, have feelings that are different from yours as a woman, so that gender differences and attitudes don't continue to polarize you and can be better understood by both of you within the context of your relationship."

You know that your wife wouldn't approve of your infidelity even though you chose to go into it thinking it was akin to masterbating to pornography. She would difine that differently and you are aware of that. You choose to downplay reality. Adultery is hurtful however it is done. Many wives feel violated if they find out that their husbands use pornography too.

You've been pretty clear in letting us know that any morality you do possess does not come from any religious belief because you are devoid of belief... Maybe you believe that believers are intellectually inferior to you. You may want to pick up Mere Christianity, by C.S. Lewis...and take another look, and maybe question, why you don't believe. Not all members here are Christian...many of us are...but not all. You and all are welcome...we are trying to be of help to you from our own experiences. Many have been in your shoes or your wife's (even though she is in the dark about her life with you at this point). If your wife has any religious beliefs maybe she understands the concept of forgiveness.

For many of us, the lying was almost worst than the infidelity.

4.) The shame on me, my family, and her family will be unbearable.

Tough tacos, You could of prevented this. Do you honestly think you can have your cake and eat it too. I said I wasn't going to waste my breath but I couldn't help myself.

Ever heard of consequences and reprocussions <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mindsink:
<strong> Look people, it comes down to this:

If I tell her...

1.) It is a CERTAINTY that our relationship will be over. Nevermind the marriage. I don't want that. If my wife cheated on me, I'd want to work it out. My wife is not as rational as me. She end it right there.

2.) It will ruin her life. She will spend the rest of her life wondering why she wasted all of her prime years on me.

3.) I risk possible injury or death upon myself. My wife is a dangerous person, and who knows what she'll do to me.

4.) The shame on me, my family, and her family will be unbearable. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You knew of these consequences BEFORE you sought out a prostitute. Yet you still went through with it. Again you are fearful of the consequences of your actions. Surely this fear spills out into other portions of your life. The only way to conquer fear is to stop running from it and face it.

You don't respect your W enough to even allow her to make her own choice whether to work on the marriage or to dump your a$$.

The fact that you came here looking for answers means that you at least have an ounce of good in you. Tap into that ounce and you may be able to recover your marriage.