Dear Pete,
First of all, hugs, prayers, and blessings.

I have been following your story over on JFO, and am glad to find you here on GQII. Looking forward to the day when you appear on 'Recovery'.

I haven't posted so far, because you have been getting great advice from the others. But, now I want to chime in with my 50 cents worth:

*** "all of the sudden she changed her mind and told me that she could make no promises, but that she wanted a third party to help us discuss the matter and that she would be willing to try. She said she has cut off all communication with the OM and wants me to pick out the MC - and not only that, but she will also complete the EN questionaires on the website.

IS THIS STILL FOG? IS SHE STILL TRYING TO MISLEAD ME??? How do I tell? " ***

This could be a breakthrough, or she could be manipulating you. Here's my suggestion. On the surface, take her at her word. Find the therapist. Make sure the MC is pro-marriage. This is paramount. I don't think gender matters too much. My now FWH insisted on a male therapist as he was afraid a woman would make two females 'ganging up' on him. Pastoral counselors are good, IMO. I don't know of your religious (if any) affiliation. MY H refused to use a pastoral counselor, saying if he wanted to talk to a pastor, he'd talk to ours, and he didn't want to do that. If your W is willing to let you find the MC, great. Do the due diligence. Protect yourself. If she's manipulating, you/ the MC will figure it out pretty quickly.

Re the snooping comments. My H also wents ballistic over this. I think most of the WSs do. It is an attempt to deflect the issue, making it about your 'snooping' and not about their cheating. Here's what I said that worked well: "I am not invading your privacy. I'm invading your secrecy and lies. Secrecy and lies have no place in a marriage. Period. You can have all my internet/cell phone passwords. I have to have yours."

Re the trust comments (I didn't actually see any in your posts, but I expect that will come soon, as in, "You have to trust me."): Ask her, "Would you trust yourself, right now? Love is given, trust is earned. You shattered my trust. Now you will have to work at rebuilding it. I will help you."

No Contact letter: Harley talks about this in SAA. Ask for it. Ask to see it before it is sent. Ask to see it actually sent. It is very symbolic, very powerful, both for you and for her. When I asked, my H said he didn't want to do it, "can't you just trust me?" I told him I needed it, I deserved it. He did it. To my best knowledge, and I still snoop, unabashedly, NC has lasted, unbroken, for the last 4 months (going on 5 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ).

A previous poster said your W is sick. She is. She is in the throes of an addiction stronger than heroin. There will be setbacks. Be strong for her. She needs you so much right now. And so do the kids. Be there for the family. She is lucky to have you.

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me-50 FWH-44 M-20 yrs DD-19 DS-15 DS-9
A-2/03-5/04 DDay-5/8/04 WD/fog-5/04-9/04
NC ltr-9/3/04
In recovery - one day at a time with God's help

Hi O, and Afterall

Thanks for your replies. After that conversaton last night, I am still suspicious - I'm not letting my guard down for a minute - I already told her that the only conversation I would have about our marriage would have to do with restoring it, I will have nothing, zero, nada, at all to do with destroying it - she has to do that on her own, she can pack, she can find a place, she can pay the bills, I will have nothing to do wiht it. I also told her I would do nothing to stop her taking such a path, but that it really hurt me to think that she would.

I am looking for a good MC, I'm using the guidelines from Dr. Harley on MB, and I want that MC to use the materials and books available - I'll buy the them for the MC if they don't have them...

And for afterall:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Re the snooping comments. My H also wents ballistic over this. I think most of the WSs do. It is an attempt to deflect the issue, making it about your 'snooping' and not about their cheating. Here's what I said that worked well: "I am not invading your privacy. I'm invading your secrecy and lies. Secrecy and lies have no place in a marriage. Period. You can have all my internet/cell phone passwords. I have to have yours."</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's exactly what this whole thing has been about - she is saying that I am so unstrustworthy (!) that she can't have any privacy - I'll just break in and spy on whatever she is doing. Thanks for your wording - I'm going to use it next time (10 to 1 that's later today) it comes up. She has always had my passwords - I've never hidden anything from her - that's how she found out about my EA a few years ago - I 'forgot' to delete an email from the OW. Actually, I think I was subconcsiously leaving that mail on there - I felt so awful and guilty about the whole thing....

Anyway, I'm gonna ask her for her passwords, and I get the cell phone bill, so I'll check it this month. And as for the NC letter - there wasn't one - she says she just called it off...

I don't really know what to thinnk of that. She's been deleting her emails as soon as she writes them, and keeeping her laptop either in her car, or right nest to her when she sleeps, so I can't really check anything on it anymore. That has to come up in conversation real soon.

David

Dear David,

You're doing great.

Re her laptop: You're the computer geek, not me, so you can answer this - can you put a 'keystroke logger' on her laptop? She may keep it in her car/sleep next to it, but she has to take a shower, for heaven's sake. Does she leave it locked in the car when she's at home? I couldn't do this, my H is the computer geek in our family. But, I did figure out his PWs, before he gavethem to me.

Anyway, re the NC ltr: As far as you're concerned, if you did not see a NC letter, or hear a NC phone call, there is NO way you can be sure she ended it. I don't suggest you throw this in her face. Just ask for it. If she already ended it, the 'formality' of sending the letter is a courtesy that you deserve, like the courtesy you paid when you apologized to your kids for the EA you had.

And stop beating yourself up. You made a mistake. You corrected it. We are all sinners.

Good luck!
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me-50 FWH-44 M-20 yrs DD-19 DS-15 DS-9
A-2/03-5/04 DDay-5/8/04 WD/fog-5/04-9/04
NC ltr-9/3/04
In recovery - one day at a time with God's help

Hi afterall -

I did put a keystroke logger on the computer (I can let you know how to do it if you are interested) - but the information I got was too painful to keep reading, so I took it back off.

There are some things that, God willing, and this marriage works out, we can work thru together. What I found was her chat logs with other friends (not the OM) - telling them what a horrible husband I am, listing all the things wrong I've done over the years, etc.: I found out enough to know that I really don't want to attend any more functions with these people - I've been to all their birthday parties, after finals parties, etc...- I can just imagine what's going thru their minds while they smile and make small talk with me. That ruined a lot of friendships for me.

I'll have to talk to her about it, but I can't go on reading that stuff.

RE the NC letter: I'm really not sure how to bring that up. My wife rarely, and I mean that - lies to me - I tend to believe her if she tells me. I think I overheard her ending it over the phone either yesterday or the day before (it's all kind of a blur), but when we did talk last night, I told her I didn't actually believe that it was over, and she said that was understandable - so I probably should have her draft one up and send it.

I know that's going to cause another huge explosion. Woo hoo, I love those! I SO look forward to another night of her fury.

I know I need to stop beating myself up, but that's easier said than done. I still am so stunned at myself for actually falling for another woman, when I take my vows so seriously. It is such a contradiction that I stil wake up at night hating myself before I get a chance to calm myself down and get back to sleep...

Arg!

David

Dear David,

Again, you are doing great!!! Be strong. I've been in your shoes. It's horrible, but you will get through. You will even have the chance at a better marriage.

Keystroke logger: No, I don't want one. As I said, my H is the geek. I'm afraid he'd find it. Do you think so? It would have to go on his laptop. He doesn't use the home PC anymore. Anyway, I check his e-mail/cell VM (have the PWs), so /I feel good about NC.

NC letter: She owes you, OK? You don't have to say it like that. In fact, that would be pretty LB-y but you COULD say that it is important to you, you need it for closure, it shouldn't be a big deal if she already did it. My H made a scene, so I know about that. But, after the scene, the next day, he did it.

The whole exposure of the secret life is hellacious for the WS. Think of all the psychic energy that went into maintaining this 'other self'.

And making a scene is a way to try and prevent you from asking for things they are not ready to give. Didn't your kids throw tantrums over things they didn't wany to do? These scenes are tantrums. No more, no less.

Don't get me wrong. I love my H dearly. We're in a really good place now. We're falling back in love. I fully believe you and your wife have a good chance at that.

Good luck!

Good grief!

I'm having a HARD time finding a good MC here! Half of the one's I've called have to check to see if they do marriage counseling! One I've talked to said he uses his own methods and wouldn't consider anyone else's, another said that they would but they didn't want my insurance, I offered cash, they still turned me down.

My wife wants to talk to me with a third party in the room - I'm not sure what she's afraid of, I've never been abusive (physically) - I've DJ'd her before and we've had some bad fights, but I've pretty much gotten past all of that while working the past few onths on my LBs.

On top of that, she still seems to want a councellor that will help her look for ways to get out, evevn though she told me that she would leave it all up to me to pick the councellor.

I explained that we could do phone councelling with Dr. Harley, at first she didn't want to, because there would be no third party there - but it really doesn't make any sense, because any counsellor we see is going to send us home after the session - they aren't gonna live with us! I must be missing some clue she's giving me, but since she's only talking to me over IM, it's hard to get any emotional feedback.

It almost feels like there's something she feels she needs to talk about that she thinks will cause some sort of danger. I offered to call our Pastor to be the third, but she doesn't want him in the room!

I'm a little concerned. I told her I had a question I needed to ask her, and assured her that I would not be angry no matter what answer she gave, but she refused to even acknowledge that.

Here's my concern - last night, when we finally were having a face-to-face conversation about our relationship, I mentioned the fact that she had blatantly lied to me, something she had never done. I asked her if she had had sex with the OM, she said no, but then she said, I've done some other things that I've never done before - and that's when she started on insisting on the third party. I mean, if it makes her feel more comfortable, I'll try to find a neutral party, but this is really odd.

The one thing that is nagging at me is that most of her friends - for the past two years, her closest friends, are lesbians, and she is spending increasing amount of time with them - she's there right now. I have this sort of dread that she may come out and say, I want this divorce because I've changed my 'preference'....

Again, although I wouldn't get any more angry than I am now, and would not LB, I do think that would probably end the marriage. And I'm really afraid now. Borrowing trouble, but I can't see what else she could possibly have done that I would not know about!

Rambling again!

David

David,

Just brace yourself for the worst ok? Hope for the best,prepare for the worst. It is very common for WS's to first say they have never had sex with the OP but the story almost always changes once you have proof.It could be anything from her actually having sex with the OM, which is very likely, to having a three way with a girlfriend too.You just never know what the WS will eventually spill.There may even be a pregnancy from OM.I hope to God not but that has also been a side effect of adultery I have seen here and on the Pregnancy boards enough that it's a possibility.

I am not sure what she means by a third party? Wouldn't a counselor be third party? Does she expect you to go ballistic?

Ugh.This is what it is to be in he**.The lies,uncertainty,pain,fear,etc.Just keep a hold on yourself David.Keep in mind that in many/most situations,that I have read about here anyway,there is not full disclosure of ALL components to the A right away.It trickles out and you are repeatedly stung at what the WS has to say.Just know ahead of time that you are in for a rough ride.Keep coming here to post.

O

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Octobergirl:
<strong> David,

Just brace yourself for the worst ok? Hope for the best,prepare for the worst. It is very common for WS's to first say they have never had sex with the OP but the story almost always changes once you have proof.It could be anything from her actually having sex with the OM, which is very likely, to having a three way with a girlfriend too.You just never know what the WS will eventually spill.There may even be a pregnancy from OM.I hope to God not but that has also been a side effect of adultery I have seen here and on the Pregnancy boards enough that it's a possibility.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think there's been enough time for a pregnancy to happen - as far as I know, the first actual possible sexual contact happened last Wednesday - the rest of the affair was simply making out in front of a hoard of drunk friends at a Christmas party on Dec 24. I am prepared for whatever happens, I'm even prepared to forgive and move on unless she decides against it - it's up to her. I love her, and unless she takes the steps away from me, I anm here no matter what.

I've felt that I've known my wife very well for 17 years, so I am wondering if she's [layed with my ignorance and total trust of her and has actually done this before....It doesn't seem possible, but right now, I don't know what to think........

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not sure what she means by a third party? Wouldn't a counselor be third party? Does she expect you to go ballistic?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's what's bothering me - I've never gone ballistic before - I'm about as mellow a guy as there can be - maybe too non-confrontational - the only time I would be dangerous is if she or one of my kids were in danger by a stranger, and then I wouldn't care what happened to me -- I'd gladly die protecting them - have always felt that way. It doesn't make sense. I guess I just have to wait and see.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Ugh.This is what it is to be in he**.The lies,uncertainty,pain,fear,etc.Just keep a hold on yourself David.Keep in mind that in many/most situations,that I have read about here anyway,there is not full disclosure of ALL components to the A right away.It trickles out and you are repeatedly stung at what the WS has to say.Just know ahead of time that you are in for a rough ride.Keep coming here to post.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm here for the duration - and afterwards if I can help anyone. I know there hasn't been full disclosure - it took me a while to even admit that I went as far as to have a kissing session with my old EA - (oooh - first base! Hee hee). I totally understand what she is going thru - wish she could believe me when I tell her that!

Octobergirl, you have been a great help. Thank you so much!

David

P.S. - I'm amazed at the difference Prozac can make, even on the first day of taking it!

<small>[ January 18, 2005, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: tanelornpete ]</small>