Okay, folks. This may be very long and rambling and if you can manage to stick with me through it, I thank you in advance. I've been hiding out in I’ Ville (with my own issues, but still responding to others "outside") because my husband has been visiting the main site of MB on direction from SH. He said he wouldn’t' come into the forums so he could respect "my space" but you never know, and I'd just as soon not be totally "out there" atm. But I think right now I need some thoughts and a little direction from the MB community at large. If anyone needs me to elaborate on my story (I'm formerly maddyk, btw) I will be happy to do so, but for the sake of length, I'll skip the background for now.

Since we separated, my husband had a short stint of pursuing a girl back in August/September, but nothing came of that in the end. During that time he was very withdrawn and detached from me. Then when he came to visit in November, he told me that his feelings towards the marriage were improving. Not necessarily in favor of the marriage, but at least 50/50. Christmas time was very difficult for me as I wanted to spend it with him but that just didn't happen. I allowed myself to get back into R talks with him (big mistake, btw)--or at least talking to him about my feelings over Christmas. He seemed to invite the conversations and be more than willing to talk about it all. Post Christmas, he seemed to be detaching from me again and I asked him what was up. He said that Christmas was so full of tension that he was leaning more in favor of a divorce again..pretty much back to where we started. I had been ready to Plan B right before that, but when we had that conversation I realized how much the whole Christmas thing hurt us so I decided to Plan A for just a few more weeks. During all of this time he made no mention of seeing someone else and in fact gave me the distinct impression that he had not dated anyone. He called SH for the first time earlier this week and had his first session..and he was kind of underwhelmed with the whole thing (I have not talked with SH yet but plan to make an appt for this coming week, if I can), but he did say he would continue talking with him. Well, I won't say why, but something told me that he might be seeing someone. I emailed a mutual friend where my husband lives asking her if my h was dating someone. I hadn't heard back from her about that yet, and don't know if I will. But I talked with him this morning and this is where I need help in finding some direction. I am so confused right now and I don't know what the right thing to do anymore is. I thought that fighting for my marriage was the right thing to do but I'm not sure anymore.

We had a really good conversation for about 30-45 minutes..just fun stuff and what's been going on with each of us. I'm not sure what conversational pt came up where I asked this, but I asked him if he had dated anyone. He hesitated a long time then said yes, once about a month ago (right after Christmas) and one last night. And the "last night" one is one where he had just told me he had done something entirely different but then admitted he fibbed about it. I kind of said "oh" then said I wasn't sure what to say about that. That I felt really stupid because I had recently let him know how much I appreciated him being more open and honest lately. We talked about the whole "dating" thing for awhile and how he feels so strongly about it and how I feel so strongly about it (in the other direction). I then asked him if he'd had sex and he hesitated a long time again and said yes. I said, "oh"...was silent a little then asked with whom. He said the girl he had gone out with earlier in the month. I asked him, "you went out on one date with the girl and had sex with her?" He hesitated AGAIN and said that no, he had started seeing her right before Christmas, during all of that and right after Christmas. I said, "And you don't see how this correlates to you changing your feeling changing back towards a divorce again?" He said, "yes and no". Then he apologized and started in on a big talk. Said that really, he was just "done" and could not envision the good feelings with me ever coming back again. He said he loves me but cannot ever see that feeling of doubt going away--ever--no matter what we do. There was more to it than that, but that was the basic gist of things. So I said I really didn't know what to say about all of that. haha, but I did know what to say. I told him that I "got it", that I completely understand his feelings about dating and his feelings about our marriage and his fears, etc (and I *do* understand), but since he said all that, I had a couple of things to say myself. I told him that I knew everything I was about to say was exactly the reason why he thought it would be best if we got a divorce even though I viewed things differently. Told him that I didn't want this to drag out any longer than it had to either, and that's why I wanted to work on things NOW rather than wait until June to decide whether or not we'd work on things.

Folks, please forgive me but then I really laid into the DJ's. I did it kindly and not in a nasty way, but they were DJ's nonetheless. I felt like since he had said all that, about being done, that this was the one time I could really tell him how I felt about everything...I have not really done that yet since all of this started and I allowed myself to get carried away and just let it all out. haha, not that it makes it any better, but I did say to him before I went into all of it that I knew that what I was about to say might hurt him. I told him that if it was true that he married me because he wasn't ready to lose me, that it was highly manipulative. I said that if that were true then he had literally STOLEN 10 years of my life. Said that it would've been easier to find someone who really loved me and wanted to be with me when I was 25 than it will be now that I'm 34. Told him I felt like I had been walking on eggshells our entire marriage in order to make him happy and that it was detrimental to us both. Detrimental to me because I did not set proper boundaries and could not get my needs met, and detrimental to him because it put me into a depression that ended up being very harmful to our marriage. I told him I agreed with him that he was totally f'd up. That I had a thousand more reasons to divorce him than he had to divorce me and that I resented the hell out of standing for him and him not standing for me. Told him that I certainly didn't expect our marriage to go so far south after being married for just two years. There was a lot more said. I feel that everything I said was the truth, but I also recognize that they were DJ's. I told him that while he may not necessarily regret a divorce, that I felt that one day he might regret how he handled things and might regret not trying harder while he had the chance. Told him that as much as I wanted to save him from that, that I could not. Finally, I said that this was getting harder and harder for me because *I* was almost done and I couldn't do it much longer. I told him I was not ready to walk away yet, but that I felt like I had done everything I could up to this point and I could not do anymore for our marriage.

I told him that I would still like to meet him when he comes to the States in a couple of weeks but in the meantime, maybe we should not talk except for him to let me know what the definite plans were for when he comes here (he has to come up here for work reasons). I said that I felt like in light of what was said today, we just need a little break from each other. Well then he got a little weird on me and didn't seem to like that idea. He just kept saying that he was confused and f'd up and didn't know what to do. That he could see everything that I was saying, but that he was just f'd up. I don't remember exactly what he said cuz it was kind of weird, but said something like 'let's forget everything that was said today except the part about dating.' Which I took to mean, "pretend that I did not say anything about being "done" and remember only that I feel strongly about dating others.” I responded that a lot was said today and we're both confused and again, it might be better not to talk for a couple of weeks, but that I looked forward to seeing him when he came up. He was in tears at this point. I told him to kick some a@@ during his martial arts work out today and I would talk to him soon. I *think* he said, "I want to try." and I'm not really sure what he meant by that. And I don't really remember exactly what he said because I was very emotional at this point too and trying to hold onto my emotions until we could get off the phone. At any rate, I repeated "Bye" and he said, "I'm so sorry" and I said, "I know, I'm sorry too. Bye, I'll talk to you soon, h" and I hung up. Got a txt msg 30 secds later that said, "Sorry I'm such a horrible person."

OH boy, if he ever does come to these boards and happens to read this post, no way he won't know who I am, but I really need direction here. I truly am *almost* ready to walk away from all this, but I still feel like I'd be giving up too soon but I do not know what else I can do. I love him, but more and more I'm not sure we can overcome certain hurdles and not sure that someone who has shown so little regard for a commitment and promise they made to me is a person that I want to be married to. He has so many good qualities but I feel that he really needs help with some of his issues and I do not know if he will ever be motivated enough to seek out that help--and if he doesn't, then there really isn't much hope for a happy marriage between us.

I'm not sure what kind of help I'm asking for. Maybe I just needed to write all this out. If you manage to stick with me, thanks again.

aislinn, I don't understand something. You say he feels strongly about dating. You mean he feels strongly that he should be able to do it while he's married?

Huh?

GC

GC, when we separated, we both agreed to dating others. At the time, we both thought it was a good idea. Then I left and came here and not only read it was a BAD idea...but really truly understand why it is a bad idea.

He is not in agreement and it was one of the things pushing me to plan B. That he will not agree to not date others. He is not really with the "MB program", kwim? Up until now, I had never really had to deal too much with the dating issue because I had believed that he had not been seeing anyone. Well, this was true until right before Christmas, but I only found that out today.

He feels strongly about dating while we're SEPARATED. He doesn't see us as married, he sees us as SEPARATED--and that means to him that he feels that he can/should date.

but I know that as long as he's keeping that door open, we can never reach a point of reconciliation. I was hoping that through counseling with SH, he would agree to "no dating", but after what I learned today..I'm not sure if I should be working towards a reconciliation or not.

<small>[ January 29, 2005, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: aislinn ]</small>

Maddy-

If he got upset like that when you said you didn't want to talk to him for 2 weeks.....it sounds to me like there's still hope. I mean of course he's going to 'try' and get away with as much as you'll let him, but when you put your foot down, I think the whole thing may have just shifted in your favor.....I'd plan B his butt, I don't even think I'd do the meeting him thing or whatever....cancel @ the last minute or something. Show him what divorce is gonna look like for him.

Do you think that he was truly upset? I mean if those weren't crocodile tears, then I think you 2 still have a chance, now all this is just my opinion, but I don't think it's as bad as you think it is.

-Caren

Caren, I don't think they were crocodile tears, but this was all over the phone. H is not an easy "cryer" and I don't think he has ever used that tact to be manipulative. I don't think he was crying about not talking with me. I think it is because he really is just very confused and trying to do what *HE* thinks is best for everyone. He feels horribly guilty about everything and I'm not sure he has anyone to talk to about it. I think he's feeling like a selfish a@@ right now and feels pulled in a thousand different directions. I don't think there is anyone except for me who points out to him that *maybe* he's not going about any of this the right way--but of course, he can't really hear that from me. But I do think it affects him when he hears it from me since no one else is willing to step up to the plate and say, "*think* about this for a minute."

Caren, I just don't know if *I* can do this much longer. Everyone here comes to that point several times, as I'm sure that you have too. I think there is hope, yes, but I don't know if that hope is enough to sustain *me* anymore. There are only so many times you can step up to the abyss of "giving up" before you finally just have to take the plunge and go ahead to make that decision. I am not sure if I've approached that point or not, but I am very close. All of us here deserve so much more than what we're getting and while I've never had a huge problem with self-esteem, I'm finally beginning to wonder if *he* deserves *me*. At the moment I don't think he does.

I would like to see him the one last time before I officially go to Plan B. I have not seen him since beginning of November and while I know intellectually that the idea of closure is just a bunch of crap, I feel like I need the one last time. I am still fairly certain that once I go to Plan B, my marriage is for sure over, so I sort of feel like I need that "goodbye".

A: I can understand why you feel that if you go to Plan B, your M will be over. But to me, there seems to be something that the threat of you leaving has on your H. There is something in what you've written that has me thinking that if you give him a couple more weeks of Plan A, then when he comes up, have a nice time and before he leaves give him a Plan B letter. Basically, saying that you can't stay with him if he's going to continue to date. Come back when you're ready to commit, but that it must be before such and such a date. Basically, get a committment from him to work on the M or at least give him what you need from him to make that committment. Hope that makes sense.

Hi Aislinn, just read through this post and my first thought was that your husband and mine should get together for a pity party. They get themselves so confused with their own actions (which confuses the hell out of me!)

I know you've probably told us before but why are you living so far apart? Plan A is practically impossible if he is not there to appreciate it. Is there any chance of you moving closer together? It sounds to me like your WH is so dependent on your friendship. He does talk to you at least and that is something to build upon. I'm no expert but I see hope in your situation.

I reckon he'd go to pieces if you really did start dating someone else as per your original agreement. TT

Aislin,

When you sit quitely and think, meditate or daydream can you imagine a pratical picture of your WH EVER contributing to your marriage in a way that satisfies your criteria for a happy life ?

I did this when Squid was in vicious fog.

And I COULD. I peeled away my conflict-avoidance filter and looked at her (and my own) behaviours and contributions to our M over the years.

I saw a picture of ME as the head of our household, a loving father, and husband and identified some of the changes I needed to make. Many of these were my Plan A changes.

Then I pictured Squid - an unselfish Squid, a negotiating Squid- a pesonally fulfilled Squid. And I wanted her for ever like that. I determined that such changes were possible because she ONCE had almost all those atributes. She just needed to bundle them together and work on it.

And that picture was the woman I wanted back, and it allowed me to detach from the spitting, snarling thing before me.

I SWEAR this - if I could not picture Squid contributing to an equal marriage I would not have bothered to plan A and suck up all that poison.

Now Squid is becoming a new person - not the one I pictured but a different but BETTER one, undefined by me. So am I.

Aislinn if you cannot in your heart of hearts see your WH sustainably contributing to your M in the way you need him to, you should make decisions based on this IMO.

I hope that makes some sense.

Hey Aislinn- Good to see you posting outside of I-Ville. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Sounds like your H is finally getting the picture that you're not going to put up with his Cr*p any more...

As for you sticking it out... Only you can decide that... My W and I never separated so I really don't have any reference or advice to give...

I'm sure that you'll make a good decision.... You and your H are in my prayers...

Semper Fi,
RIF

Want to thank everyone for their input.

Yes, RH, I think I continue to underestimate what Plan B might do for me in my situation. As tt said, he does rely heavily on my friendship. We can't really be best friends right now because of the situation, but I *am* his best friend. I know more about him and he can talk with me about just about anything and I've always stuck by him. The reverse (me to him) is also true. He thinks we'll always be able to be friends. I used to think so to, but if we divorce, I don't want to be his friend. His reaction yesterday really surprised me. He was totally calm when he said he was "done" and his following explanation. But then when I suggested we not talk for a couple of weeks, he starts crying and saying how messed up he is. WTF? I'm with Orchid on this one, if he's so happy about his damned decisions to far, and so sure about them...why the guilt? Why the confusion? Why isn't he ACTING happy?? The reason I've thought in the past that Plan B would not be effective is because he was already really detached from me. Since we have no reason to see each other (no kids, etc), Plan B would've just furthered that. But I'm starting to rethink that all.

Tummytuck, he's in the military and in Puerto Rico. When we separated there was not really any feasible way for me to stay down there. It was possible, but not a good idea. I don't speak Spanish and couldn't get a job there, nor could I go to school. There was just nothing for me down there and us being there had really kind of put me into a depression with helped to facilitate the demise of our marriage after the affair. I never would've been able to make the changes that I've made if I had stayed there. And you're so right about the friendship. Once we got over the initial awkwardness of the separation and started being friends again, that's when his feelings towards the marriage started to improve. I think he would truly miss my friendship. But ya know, I want a husband (+friend), not just a friend. And yes, like you with your husband, his reactions confuse the heck out of me. He insists that he's been happy living alone and that everyone always says how much happier he looks. Um...but he's not sure about anything, not happy about it all and not guilt-free. He's certainly not "indifferent" to me. But he's hellbent on living the "single life" for now no matter how he feels. I don't get it.

bob, you know I have thought about all of that so much. Immediately after we separated and up until recently, I would've said yes yes yes, I can see it that way for sure...him being able to contribute positively to our marriage.

But lately I do wonder. Actually, I do think he would be able to and I HONESTLY feel that we could make a great marriage. BUT...and this is a big BUT...I think it's going to take him awhile to want to start *truly* working on things. I don't think he understands that pretty soon the decision is going to be taken entirely out of his hands. I'm not sure that he start doing what needs to be done until we divorce, or very close to the point where we get a a divorce. It may be too late for me by then. He said to me, "I just think we would have a much better chance of working through all this if we divorced, dated each other and then remarried." This is a pretty common statement by WS but it's so ridiculous. I said to him, "Um, yeah. You have a history of lying and cheating on me. You have hurt me beyond belief. Why on earth would I date a person like you?" For me, divorce is the dealbreaker. I won't seek a reconciliation with him after we divorce. Maybe I won't lock the door, but it will certainly be closed firmly.

But you know, I'm really speculating on all of this. I think that today he's probably kicking himself for showing me any sign of confusion. He's probably already been able to explain it away to himself as a moment of weakness and re-educating himself on the benefits of being single. Who knows? And this is what I'm getting tired of and not sure I can take much more of.

RIF, yeah..it's tough to know. But we won't divorce until June if we do divorce so at least that's not something I have to think about right now. I can just decide to detach from him further. That is not an easy choice to make, but it's getting close to that time.

A: I think you need time to sort through alot of the confusion that both of you are feeling ... and while there is still confusion not decision should be made in haste. You will feel hopeless and overwhelmed everytime he lets you down with the talk of "dating" and you will feel hopeful every time he says he wants to "try". You have to really decide what it is that you want and go for it.

A big part of "recovery" is self recovery. You can learn alot about yourself through this life experience. Some things may really surprise you - about yourself, your H and your M. You Plan A for yourself too. You may have to even Plan B for yourself. But you need to be in control of you and improve yourself and not just "wait" for him to make up his mind. He'll surely notice any improvements you make. And if you love - do just that love him .... but try and love yourself too.

Lynn

aislinn,

I don't know if I can offer any advice here. I pretty much did everything wrong during my exWs affair. However, the one thing I did right for my own sanity and self preservation was go into plan B. Yes, I still go through rough times, but I don't think I could have made it this far if I had continued to communicate with exW. She sat on the fence for a long time and put me through hell and in the end decided to go her own way. At least in plan B, I kept a little sanity...

Your husband sounds like he is fence sitting big time. Sounds like he counts on you being there for him no matter what he does. This is wrong for him and you. Plan B is not just there to help him stop fence sitting but there also for you to maintain your love for him. If you continue on the course you're on, you are gonna begin to lose all the love you have for him, the love bank will be too depleted to ever be able to take him back if he ever decided to come back. Plan B is about boudaries, self preservation, and to let your WS know what it'd be like without you in their life... Is it time to plan B yet? You have to decide that...

I wish you the best. Continue posting and ranting. That's what's so great about this board. You have friends here that can and will listen..... Take care.

brown, yep. I totally understand what you're saying. For the most part I've been able to "move on" with my life without "moving on" from my marriage. I've changed annoying habits (annoying to both him and me...like being messy), I moved to a place where I knew no one and now have a circle of friends (not easy for me). I'm working and going to school, planning for a life without him, but still hoping that we'll be together.

But I REACT to his actions entirely too much. Well, react might not be the right word, but I allow him too much control over my own emotions. I base a lot of what I feel on what he feels and this is certainly not the right thing to be doing. It's the hardest thing, really, that I've had to do so far and I'm not being very successful at it.

I had my Plan B letter all ready, but then shelved it when he said he was back towards wanting the divorce and that things were too tense. And now I'm still kind of letting my own plans be adjusted by his actions. This is what I need to get away from and am having a hard time with.

lwh, if it is not time for Plan B yet, it's very nearly time. And it might in fact be time, and I'm just hemming and hawing. I do plan to go into it after I see him in a couple of weeks, but also know I'm vulnerable to changing my mind on that.

My initial reasons for not doing a plan B were that SH does not usually recommend Plan B for people in my situation....separated over a long distance, no kids together, no reason for even casual contact, etc. But I had gotten to the point where I could no longer take his baby steps and felt that Plan B was the right thing to do for ME--not in hopes of saving my marriage, but in hopes of saving my sanity. Then I put if off to Plan A a little longer and I'm rather sorry that I did. I would still like to see him the one last time before I go into Plan B as it's been so long since we've seen each other. I feel that he needs a good dose of "aislinn" before I go dark. We always have VERY good interactions when we see each other in person, so I feel this is the right move to make. I just hope that I don't change my Plan B plan for a stupid reason.